187. Hanan Khashoggi

0:01Hanan Khashoggi:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:11Hanan Khashoggi:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.

0:24Hanan Khashoggi:This week's difficult woman is the widow of the Saudi journalist who criticised intermittently the Saudi government. He wrote a column for the Washington Post and US intelligence believes that Saudi Arabia's crown prince Mohammed bin Salman directly ordered Jamal Khashoggi's murder. This is an exclusive conversation with his widow, Hanan.

1:04Hanan Khashoggi:Welcome to Difficult Women. How did you meet your husband, Jamal Khashoggi?

1:09Rachel Johnson:I did meet him in Dubai where I grew up. in Arabic Media Forum. I already know him as a public figure. I was one of his fans. But to meet him in person, it was in 2009 in Arabic Media Award in Dubai.

1:26Hanan Khashoggi:So you were aware of him and his work and he was a prolific journalist and also his critical approach to the Saudi regime right from the beginning.

1:35Rachel Johnson:He was not. This describing about him, his critical, it was not. He was very close to them. He was corresponding whatever they're thinking about. Any journalist in Middle East used to look what Jamal Khashoggi say and they automatically will understand this is the opinion of the royal family and the administration within Saudi Arabia. He was not a critical like the people think now after the crime.

2:09Hanan Khashoggi:This is why I said paradox in the beginning, because some of what he wrote was very supportive of the regime and some of what he wrote later towards the time of his death was far more critical. So he did change his point of view.

2:28Rachel Johnson:That's right. Yes.

2:29Hanan Khashoggi:Your relationship developed quickly but intermittently because I think you were working on it with an airline. You're a trained journalist, but you were working with an airline. You sort of bumped into him occasionally and then you got married early in 2018.

2:47Rachel Johnson:That's right. Yes, the relation from 20, as soon as we met in 2009, we sat for about four hours talking in front of different friends from different backgrounds. And they was wondering how much we are matched together. We realize we are a copy from each other somehow. We are agree with everything, even our personal test toward general stuff. It is the same. we did not mean to ask each other to be the same but we find ourselves the same in everything he's Adam and Eve basically, just the way I look at it a relation becomes very strongly with the dais he was very important to him to hear my opinion about any article he released about any interview he does in the media and I used to give him a feedback and he's a very good listener.

3:46Rachel Johnson:And when he put him under house arrest in 2016, which is just starting as a real start of this tragedy, it was 2016, he said some opinion, the Saudi authority did not like it with the American institution. And they put him under house arrest in 2016 until the middle of 2017. At this time, I become more close to Jamal. I did object in my peaceful way in my social media, and I still have some posts from this time in social media. I did not delete it. And I did ask a couple of journalists to write about it, to allow Jamal Khashoggi to speak up and come out and remove the band of the underhouse arrest.

4:31Rachel Johnson:This is very humiliating for him. And the relation become very strong and diverted to romantic after that. which has happened when he was in his exile in U.S. because he fleed Saudi Arabia in the summer of 2017 after the denial of his access to United Arab Emirates because the thing triggered this decision for him to flee. It was the denial of access to Abu Dhabi, the capital of United Arab Emirates. Then he decided to go to his apartment in McLean in Virginia in the U.S. and sit for some time. But what happened, as soon as he landed in America, he started speaking up and using all of the tools to speak up.

5:19Rachel Johnson:And the gap became more bigger between him and the Saudi authority.

5:23Hanan Khashoggi:As a journalist on The Washington Post, he had a huge and a very important and influential public platform to call out the Saudi authorities. In one of his columns, he wrote that the of the Saudi paradox that he had worked for the government and then been fired by the government and how Saudi Arabia was trying to moderate. This is his words now the extreme viewpoints of both liberal reformers and conservative clerics. So the Saudi government is trying to sort of trying to work its way from the centre to squash both the very conservatives, the ultra conservatives and the liberal reformers, which is fascinating.

6:09Hanan Khashoggi:And he was caught in the middle. At the same time, the administration was entirely intolerant of any criticism. Did he represent the most public face of criticism of the Saudi regime in the West, do you think?

6:29Rachel Johnson:He was trying to be this way. He was trying to avoid to be this way. He was trying as much as he can to be a dissident or opponent. But what's happening in Saudi Arabia about putting people in the Ritz-Carlton hotel, torture them, taking them money, all of this had a very bad impact in Jamal.

6:54Hanan Khashoggi:Sorry, you're talking about when the relatives of the prince were incarcerated in the Ritz-Carlton. That's right.

7:01Rachel Johnson:That's right. That leads Jamal to become more assertive in his world, more clear about the criticise. And but before he wished, he just wished the crown prince have some tolerance to listen to him, to invite him, especially when he visit the U.S. The crown prince did visit U.S. in the beginning of 2018. Jamal was waiting for invitation to go to the crown prince and tell him, I'm not against reality. I'm not against Saudi Arabia. I love my country. I want to serve my country with my good education and my good view. but please listen to us as an educated people in different fields like Jamal, like Assam al-Zaml, extra, extra, the people who's in jail.

7:48Rachel Johnson:Some of them they lost to them life, some of them still in jail now. Yes, he was trying to be different. Jamal is very pragmatic personality. Jamal unique, he's really unique man and he's unique journalist. You can find him, he believes in Wahhabi, for example, but he wanted to be adopted with a civilized life. He wanted to be developed, for example. Jamal can sit with any background, any ideology, and you can have a different view from him, absolutely different view from his idea. And I promise you, you will walk away with a smile. This is Jamal Khashoggi. That's why Jamal was for them a threat, because he's very well-spoken, very wise, knowledgeable, and he's been welcomed for all society.

8:54Hanan Khashoggi:Was it foolhardy and too risky for your former husband, your ex-husband to call, to compare MBS to Vladimir Putin?

9:07Rachel Johnson:He was not comfortable with this describe. When he started to speak up and say this and put the Crown Prince and Vladimir Putin in same boat, in same scale, he was not very happy with this.

9:22Hanan Khashoggi:Maybe that was the headline. Maybe in the piece it was slightly more a gentle criticism. He also talked about women's rights and how there should be free speech in Saudi Arabia, all things that we believe in the West, equal rights, freedom of speech. Can we go back to October the 2nd, 2018? Hannah, tell us what you remember of that day.

9:47Rachel Johnson:It is very tough day for me. It's very strange day for me. It was, it did, I remember I felt like my heart dropping down. One day before I was in Prague, Czech Republic He tried to reach me to wish me a happy birthday He tried to talk to me He did not get hold of me in a verbal conversation He sent me a message in my UK number Because I'm using a UK number till now And also he sent me an American number He gave it to me, it's under his name Anyway, when I came back from Prague I landed in the morning, Dubai time, I slept. When I get up from sleep around 3 p.m., I found Twitter full of news about Jamal Khashoggi disappeared in a consulate.

10:39Rachel Johnson:In the beginning, I'm lost, and I feel like I'm in a cage, like you put me in a cage, like a bird being hung in a cage. And this was my situation in the United Arab Emirates, because the United Arab Emirates did a lot of bad things for me before I fled from there. As soon as I got engaged to him in the beginning of 2018, when I got the news, I could not get the clear news because it was a flood of different news. Most of it is not true, is not right information. Some of it, it was the right information. I tried to seek information from my close friend in UK and in Qatar to send me a screenshot or some news, credible news, for I can understand what happened.

11:28Rachel Johnson:I called Jamal. I keep calling him in his mobile. I did send him a message because I've been detained. I've been put under house arrest twice in the United Arab Emirates. They took my devices. I thought in my mind, if he's stuck inside the consulate, they do the same with him. They carry his device. I want them to see my message. I want the Saudi authority to see my message to my husband. I told him in my message, Jamal, I support you. You love your country. You're faithful to your country. They will understand Jamal. But of course, he already gone. What is your understanding of what happened to your husband in the consulate in Istanbul on that day?

12:14Rachel Johnson:it's a horrible crazy crime from a bunch of mental sick people this is the way I describe it because if they give themselves a chance to know the truth about Jamal they will never take this crazy decision what I believe Ms. Rachel very strongly I believe someone was badmouthing Jamal around the royal family. Someone, some people around the royal family, which is, they are jealous from Jamal. He have a lot of people against him, and he told me. And they used to tweet against him. They used to write articles, bad articles, all of lies about him. My strong belief, there is some group of people was badmouthing him around the royal family and make the gap very bad between him and the royal family.

13:09Rachel Johnson:What I understood from this crime after being confirmed, because I took a long time to digest this, I took a long time to believe I will not see him again. I couldn't believe they done this extremist crime because he was, until last minute, he was willing to go back to his country. He was willing to take me and he asked me many times, are you willing to come with me? I said, I go with you anywhere. I support you from the beginning until the end. This is what I can tell you. This bunch of mentally ill people allowed themselves to take innocent person's life away just because of his opinion.

13:47Hanan Khashoggi:Because of his opinion. Opinions. So he was killed for his strong opinions. I mean, the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has admitted liability. He said it was on his watch, but he has denied ordering the murderer of your husband. He was murdered on Saudi soil. He was in the consulate in a foreign city. Do you have any understanding of whether this was a planned visit and what the purpose of the visit was? It's been written that he was there to secure some documentation for a further marriage to a young student. What can you tell us about what you think he was doing in the embassy? Was this a planned assassination because they knew he was coming?

14:34Rachel Johnson:I can say it is his bad luck. Jamal was seeking, after we get married, I realize we are facing three challenges. Financial, he doesn't have any money. All of this I discovered after we got married. Second, it was an immigration challenge. Jamal, until he'd been assassinated, he carried a Saudi passport. with no clear about the IO visa. He got it from the United States. Who provided it to him? The third challenge, Jamal's family do have a disease, Alzheimer. When they're grown up, they lose their memory. And we need for him some stability. We need for him a passport, for give him a freedom to move without he being painted as a dissident because he was very clear about this.

15:24Rachel Johnson:in all of his interview and all of his meeting with different journalists, he used to cry if you call him a dissident. He said, no, I'm only advisor to my country. And the only solution to get a passport. And I think there is a lot of people actually get married for a sake of passport. And the third challenge, as I mentioned, it was a disease in his family because his father suffered from it for 10 years. And two of his sister, they have it now. And Jamal wanted to have a kind of health insurance and some stability to protect him because he was absolutely isolated in America. You do not be influenced about the noise after his death, what happened.

16:09Rachel Johnson:The whole world stands for him. In his life, he did not have half percent of this noise around him, Ms. Rachel. He was absolutely isolated. He was depressed. And I think he was going to proceed because Turkey does not allow polygamy. They practice, some of them practice Islam, some of them they don't. But generally speaking, the constitution not allowed polygamy. I think her father was demanding to get a paper. He is not married, which is already married to me.

16:55Hanan Khashoggi:This is a confusing part of the story because you hadn't been married very long to Jamal and it looked like he was trying to get documentation to marry a student called Miss Chen Jis. I'm not sure her name. You have never spoken to her. You've never met her. You have no idea of the veracity of that story. shall we leave that there as far as you're concerned you are the third or fourth wife of Jamal Khashoggi and as his widow you are speaking up why at this point?

17:35Rachel Johnson:Because I have to save my husband's legacy and I have to seek justice for him he's my lover and I'm the only wife to Jamal Khashoggi upon his death. No one else. He divorced the three wives before me. And also because getting engaged to Jamal and getting married to Jamal, it did cause me a lot of damage in my life. I'm not regretting. Do not get me wrong. But it did destroy my life and my family life. I've been put under house arrest twice in the United Arab Emirates. I've been, they spy on me with the NSO product, bagasses. They used it since 2017. We do have the evidence, the strong evidence from Citizen Lab.

18:27Rachel Johnson:And this is because my family has been blacklisted twice in the United Arab Emirates. They cannot travel out of the United Arab Emirates. And now after I lost my job, I lost my comfortable life. I've been separated from my family. we are separated in three continents now. And I'm paying a heavy price because I'm isolated here in U.S. because of sensitivity of my case, because everybody wanted to know what I will do about Jamal, about NSO, about Saudi, about Emirati. And I have only one choice, to be alone. I'm hardly talking to anyone except to my family in Middle East. And this is very heavy price.

19:08Rachel Johnson:My health has been affected and my life thrown down. They kill my husband. They kill my soul. I have no life anymore, Ms. Rachel. And that's why I have only one choice to stand for justice for myself and for Jamal. If someone kills a member of your family, they need to compensate you and they need to apologize and be sincere. Yes, the Crown Prince admit and take responsibility in 60 minutes in US. But it's not enough. There is unfinished business here. There is something being left here. They destroy my life. They choose to use the alliance, United Arab Emirates, to use the intelligence to interfere in my life and spy on me and destroy my life.

19:56Rachel Johnson:They need to do something and to be sincere and apologize and to compensate me. This is what I'm standing for now.

20:03Hanan Khashoggi:Well, I'm very glad to provide you with a platform for this because it seems to me that You and your family have been extremely harshly treated. The CIA and the UN said there was credible evidence that Prince Mohammed had ordered or sanctioned your husband's assassination. And the Saudis have already always denied that the MBS knew or ordered it. How do you feel about Saudi now and the West's diplomatic relationship with Mohammed bin Salman? He's been to London. UK journalists go out to Saudi Arabia and they write glowing pieces about how what a modern country it is becoming. What a great guy he is.

20:51Hanan Khashoggi:How does that make you feel?

20:54Rachel Johnson:Jamal always wanted his family, his country to have a normal relation in all term with the entire world Economy, sport, art, everything Jamal, if he's here now, he will be happy The country is open and developed But there is something missing here They should not forget this crime The journalist or architecture or the public figure, artist or sport, the Saudi authority need to be more transparent. I have no clue what happened in the court when they judged the criminal who killed my husband after Turkey chose to transfer the file to Saudi Arabia. I have no idea what happened because for a simple reason, Mr.