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Podcast Summary: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women - Episode 193: Dame Kelly Holmes
Overview In this episode of "Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women," host Rachel Johnson interviews Dame Kelly Holmes, a celebrated British Olympian who achieved remarkable success by winning two gold medals at the 2004 Athens Olympics. The conversation delves into Kelly’s tumultuous upbringing, her experiences in the military, her athletic career, and her personal journey toward self-acceptance and authenticity.
Key Themes
Childhood and Upbringing
- Early Life Challenges: Kelly discusses her difficult childhood, which included nearly being given up for adoption and spending five years in a care home due to her mother's inability to care for her as a single parent.
- Fear of Abandonment: The experience of being separated from her mother instilled a deep-seated fear of abandonment that affected her relationships throughout her life.
The Military Journey
- Transition to the Army: After a challenging childhood, Kelly found a sense of belonging and purpose in the military, eventually becoming a physical training instructor.
- Women in the Military: Kelly reflects on the misogyny in the military and how the acceptance of women in all roles has evolved over time.
Athletic Career
- Path to the Olympics: Kelly shares her journey from military service to elite athletics, highlighting her determination and resilience in overcoming injuries and setbacks.
- Double Gold Achievement: Winning gold in both the 800m and 1500m at age 34, Kelly emphasizes the emotional and psychological challenges of achieving such success.
Mental Health and Personal Growth
- Struggles with Mental Health: Kelly candidly opens up about her struggles with mental health, self-harm, and the importance of seeking help and support.
- Coming Out: After years of hiding her identity, Kelly publicly came out as gay at age 52, which was a significant turning point in her life.
Societal Reflections
- Gender and Sexuality: The conversation touches on the broader societal issues surrounding sexuality, gender identity, and the importance of acceptance and understanding.
- Empowerment and Authenticity: Kelly's journey emphasizes the importance of living authentically, overcoming societal expectations, and advocating for marginalized voices.
Key Takeaways
- Fear of Judgment: Kelly highlights the irrational fears we often have about others' perceptions, encouraging listeners to embrace their true selves.
- Empowerment Through Vulnerability: Sharing her struggles and triumphs has empowered Kelly to help others facing similar challenges.
- Community and Connection: Building relationships and understanding diverse backgrounds is essential for fostering kindness and unity in society.
Closing Thoughts Dame Kelly Holmes' story is a powerful reminder that resilience, authenticity, and the courage to be "difficult" are essential for personal growth and societal change. Her insights on mental health, identity, and perseverance resonate deeply, making this episode a significant resource for anyone on their journey of self-discovery.
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Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Rachel Johnson:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:11Rachel Johnson:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.
0:24Rachel Johnson:What a privilege to sit down with Dame Kelly Holmes, one of Britain's most extraordinary athletes who won two golds, age 34. My favourite bits, hard to pick, but listen out for when she tells me that her life completely changed, age 52, and why. Welcome to Difficult Women.
1:05Rachel Johnson:She's the child who has almost given up for adoption, who's been recognised and honoured for her army career. She's the woman who pivoted from army service to athletics Tixson won two golds for Great Britain, the first British woman to become a double Olympic champion after winning gold in the 800 metres and the 1500 metres in Athens in 2004. She's the competitor and campaigner who came out in her early 50s as gay, whose autobiography is called Unique. Some might say everything Dame Kelly Holmes has done has turned to gold and she's lived a charmed life, but that would not be quite right, would it?
1:44Rachel Johnson:No, not necessarily, no. Definitely not. Welcome to Difficult Women, Kelly. Thank you. It's lovely to see you. I know you've got a very busy day, so let's just, you know, you rushed in carrying a bag with your gladrags in it. You're going to some red carpet thing later. Is life a bit crazy?
2:02Dame Kelly Holmes:Yeah, it always is. It's kind of like you're in three different heads throughout the day, you know what I mean? or even four, the one that you've left behind at home, which the house is a mess and you quickly put everything in the dishwasher to the one where you've got to be kind of in your best behaviour by talking to high-level people at a lunch thing to come into a podcast to then dressing up. You know, it's like, yeah, but, you know, isn't that what life is sometimes? It's the great tapestry of life. And I think some of us thrive on it.
2:32Rachel Johnson:And I think you're probably one of them. Let's get back to your childhood. I said you were almost given up for adoption. You had a very close relationship with your mother, Pam. Why couldn't she cope? She was a single mother. Tell us your origin story.
2:49Dame Kelly Holmes:Yeah, so my mum had me when she was 17 with what she calls probably not a mistake, but it must have been a mistake because he definitely didn't show up. He didn't show up, no. So she went off back from, I think, Lewisham down to Kent where I was born and bred and to a village. I call it whiter than white in my village of Kent. And she's white. She was white. And so your father's clearly black. Yeah, he's black. He's got a Jamaican heritage. So yeah, he's black. So biological father, I would say. He left her when I was less than six months old. So she went back down to Kent to her parents, my nan and granddad.
3:34Dame Kelly Holmes:they said to her in her words that you are not allowed to try and look after a child until you look after yourself so off I go to a care home um and that was really it I was in there in and out for five years um or just over until she met who I call my dad Mick who's white as well Mick Holmes is he called no Norris he she's she's Holmes my mum's passed away but so she was Tom she never she wasn't Holmes no one was Holmes so he was Holmes so yes your biological dad oh weird because you kept that well yeah because I don't know any different did I when I was young just you're just the name that you're given I didn't want her name either it was Norman you know I mean like Kelly Norman doesn't quite have the same ring okay and then she got married so basically she she ended up marrying my who I call my dad when I was seven he brought me up he's still my dad to this day he's around probably on a mower and feeding my alpacas as we speak um they divorced uh well my mum left him when i was 17 and they basically divorced and he remained my dad and that's really the life that i had and that's all i kind of know two half brothers uh three half brothers three half brothers and two half sisters and two half sisters i grew up with i grew up with who we don't call them half but I grew up with two of my brothers with my mum and Mick and they're 10 and 8 years younger than me so they're the people they're the kids that you know grew up with me and then when I was 16 I bumped into who I know now as my sister in a supermarket I know right it's life weird well and whose child was she so sperm donors as I call him biological father I mean that was all he was really wasn't it and her mother and her mother apparently knew my mother so effectively her mother went off off with him she's two years younger than me so I met her in the supermarket I was very young at 16 because I was already in my sport go round in the supermarket see a mixed race girl well of course if that's the only mixed race girl you've laid your eyes on it's kind of a little bit stands out remember hearing my name as I go around the aisle grabbing the tin of beans or whatever it was and went to my mum and said somebody knows my name come around they're chatting the two women are chatting I'm just staring at this girl thinking like like who are you you know my name go home mother refused to tell me I later then found out after bugging her that she was my half-sister they only live six miles away from me she lived with my biological father and I didn't know and he only lived six miles away from me all my life so I met him once he got up when I came and went to the pub and that was it never seen him since so he's not really it isn't your father this is the whole narrative is your father or your mother or whatever is the person that loves you brings you up cares for you end of and so Mick is my dad
6:52Rachel Johnson:I mean I would need years of therapy to get to be able to to get through that and to have had a functioning adulthood but you clearly have taken these early disadvantages the fact that you were in care for five years the fact that your father abandoned you had a family with another woman and and actually gave some care to that that daughter and a brother and another one
7:17Dame Kelly Holmes:Another one. I know. Well, you know, I think, well, to be fair, I think you still have anyone as an adult can have childhood trauma, which doesn't really manifest until things happen, right? So when you're starting doubting yourself, when you don't have the confidence, when people are asking you questions that you don't know the answer and you suddenly think, oh, well, I didn't really think about that. And then actually it manifests, right? The only thing that I think really was an issue during, I would say almost like my 30s was abandonment, fear of abandonment. You know, when you remember your mum always leaving you in a care home, you're screaming, thinking they're never going to come back when you think, well, he left you.
7:55Dame Kelly Holmes:So anyone can just do it whenever they want. Your mum and dad leave. You know, lots of things. You know, lots of things. So whatever's happened, I think, as a child, not everybody is aware of it, remembers it. But sometimes there's things that trigger and then manifest and then they become what we know as childhood trauma. and I think I had that abandonment thing. So any relationship was like, you push them away before because they're going to go anyway, that type of thing.
8:19Rachel Johnson:Get out before they can dump you. Exactly.
8:21Dame Kelly Holmes:When I first became a self-harmor as I was 33 and I was actually getting ready for a big major championship. So I was an elite athlete, I'd left the army. You know, I was a strong woman, quite driven, focused and whatever. But there was lots of things, injuries, sense of losing identity, not really knowing, you know, we're fitted in with society worried and fear and all of that came out because when you can't scream out loud because you can't talk about what you're thinking and feeling yeah then people self-harm some people do it with alcohol some people do it with you know taking drugs some people do it lots of ways mine was that i happened to at the time that i was having a massive breakdown saw some scissors and started to cut myself which was almost the release and it was like whole like well at least I can I'm in control of that because I'm out of control of everything else so that's why I personally did it and everyone does it for very different reasons did I ever get support then no back in 2003 we didn't talk about this you know people didn't talk about mental health awareness and the need for support very hidden very internalized all of those things right i'm sure people were getting therapy but not somebody that was in the public eye already in elite sport ex-military person and who do i speak to you know yeah so um that happened and i always think that you know if you've had a big situation in your life that's really impacted you can't really go can it you don't get over it you learn to deal with
9:52Rachel Johnson:environments it's a bit like a massive bereavement you never yeah you know you learn to live with it and sit with it. Exactly. So listen, I want to sprint through your life a bit till we come to you now. We've talked about the five years in the care home. Mick comes onto the scene. He parents you properly. You're not a brilliant schoolgirl and student. You roll your eyes. But you're a brilliant athlete. Yes. And you found a kind of family in the army as well, a bit. And you thrived there. You were a driver. And then a physical training instructor. And a physical training instructor. And you wanted to do all that.
10:32Rachel Johnson:And when you said that about the driving, I had this vision of you and the Queen. She was driving during the war. And you were driving these strong women, these leaders. Tell us a bit about the army. And I've made you look at a piece in the Times today about a woman who's written a book called Pink Camouflage and Sexism and Misogyny for women recruits. So just tell us a bit of what was it like for you when you were in the army?
10:59Dame Kelly Holmes:So first you were in the Women's Royal Army Corps, which was a separate corps within the British Army. It was governed by women, ranked by women, trained with women, all of that. It amalgamated in 1992 to become the British Army that we know to this day, where male and female will be under the same rank structure or promotional structure, same pay, da-da-da-da. um i was a hdv driver then i became physical train instructor something i dreamt of since i was 14 uh yeah you know they'd say about a woman in a male's environment of course because the numbers are tipped to that more women more men than we're outnumbered right yeah you are and even when you go to them barracks you're outnumbered by huge you know um so is there misogyny in the military yes of course because of course you've got the male provado i think they know it all
11:55Rachel Johnson:testosterone yeah you know it's a very macho thing to be a soldier yeah it is in one way have they accepted women being soldiers do you think yeah now you know women can now go in any
12:06Dame Kelly Holmes:role that they want to that's only been the last what seven years i think six seven years so women can now join anything. The difference is they didn't have the opportunity to join, wasn't there? They weren't capable. It's like anything in the world, isn't it? If you don't give somebody the chance, we're never going to do. Frontline combat. Yep, they can do all of it now. And to be honest, in the war they did anyway. They were flying fighter pilots. No one talked about that, did they? Women have always done everything in society. It's just like history books. When you try and get rid of history, you forget what actually happened, like they're trying to do now in lots of fields, trying to eradicate history so that we only think it's the this and the that and the whatever but actually the narrative is that women have always done anything and are very capable of doing everything but we get suppressed and oppressed and pushed into a box now we want women to step up however in the military this is not new this this in the paper the conversation but it's awful you know sexual
13:07Rachel Johnson:abuse you better explain what the story is okay so this one here at the moment it says uh female
13:12Dame Kelly Holmes:recruits were told to strip in army medical so basically bend down in front of doctors you know it's a power trip isn't it men have always had this power trip they're untouchable because who's going to question them and if you question something the risk of losing your career is huge because you feel as a recruit or a young person going into anything that you open your mouth the inevitable is going to happen. They're going to push you out. So there's this power that anyone in power could have because anyone in power can tell somebody younger or somebody newer what they want to be told, right? Unfortunately, in a medical setting where you have to have a medical, sorry, these are abusers.
13:56Dame Kelly Holmes:I don't care. These are people that shouldn't be in that field. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you do. You shouldn't be in that field if that is what you do, right? And I don't care about rank and status. unfortunately women again being outnumbered will always be the sexual kind of you know they'll have sexual predators let's say because it's female you probably wouldn't get a woman high-ranking woman medical officer telling a guy to lift up his penis and do whatever but this is the fact is that unfortunately women in certain circumstances haven't had control it's exactly the same as not the same but it was in terms of the control and people being told what they can and can't do and the risk of your career was the same as having the the ban against lgbt people in the army same
14:45Rachel Johnson:thing when did that cease it was 2000 so from 1967 or 64 to 2000 67 to 2000 well the homosexuality was legalized in the country in 67 but still illegal in the armed services nuts isn't it Nuts. So there must have been so many armed service men and women in the closet.
15:06Dame Kelly Holmes:So many in the closet, but so many also that lost their careers, their dignity, their rank, their long service medals, just because they were either assumed to be or may be gay or found out to be gay because of this sort of witch hunt around people. I mean, I don't get the fascination with people controlling other people's journeys and life.
15:28Rachel Johnson:You know what I mean? When you were there, did you worry about being kicked out if they found out your sexuality? Yeah, because, well, I didn't know I was gay when I joined, so obviously I came... Well, you were very young, you were like 17 or something. Yeah, 17, so I wasn't really exploring that. Yeah, you hadn't found out who you were yet.
15:43Dame Kelly Holmes:No, no, and then I realised I was in the army. And then, yeah, when I was 22, I had a raid in the military, which is basically people coming into your living... A raid? Yeah, yeah. What were they looking for? Well, exactly that. To find out if people may be gay. How would they have established if you're gay or not? Well, I suppose they just look at if you've got anything, a letter from somebody. Oh, my days. So I had that when I was 22. They came into my barrack room, which is just a room where your bed is. And I was lucky that at that age and stage, I'd had a single. So they came onto our barracks.
16:19Dame Kelly Holmes:You got tipped off that the R &Ps were coming into your barracks.
16:22Rachel Johnson:What does R &Ps stand for? Royal Military Police.
16:24Dame Kelly Holmes:came in, raided the barracks and the rooms, not really knowing who they were going to raid. It was a general raid. General raid. Could have got tipped off. Who knows? You know what I mean? You don't know that. I was only a corporal at the time. I was 22. You know, it's just suddenly it's happening. So all we used to laugh at is just, oh, no, you know, you put all your cards and photos into a box and put them into the boot of your car. But these were, for me, just letters and cards from my sister and my best friend Kerry. There weren't anything incriminating, but because it's like a girl's own to go, I thought, I'll explain myself, you know what I mean?
17:02Dame Kelly Holmes:So anyway, a raid basically to the crux of it is they invade your primacy. They literally pull it apart, your room. So if you went home, burglars are in your house. They're still in your house. They're ransacking all your personal, private things, literally tipping it out, ripping things out of the wardrobe and then leaving it to stay. That left me with fear because I was fearful for my job, which I loved. I loved being a PTI, literally. I loved being a soldier. I loved the rank. I loved helping people. I didn't want to lose that. And so that fear coupled with the status I had in the military kind of left me with this numbness of, OK, well, I can't ever really come out because of the risk of the career that I had.
17:47Rachel Johnson:Is that what stopped you coming out? at age 52 or was it the fact that your mum was still alive? Both?
17:54Dame Kelly Holmes:No, my mum knew about me. She knew right all along. Yeah, so my dad, Mick, was the first person I told when I was 27. No, actually no, he was the first person I told when I was 18. So this is about coming out publicly which is a completely different matter. Yeah, so this is, no, all my friends and family don't, I mean, they don't care, they've known since I was 27. I don't care. I mean, didn't even have to tell after them. I think it's brilliant. I didn't have to tell after, it's just life. No, it was about coming out publicly because sport there was no role modelling in sport no one was out in my era no one was out well it's like men's football
18:27Rachel Johnson:look at it how many men's footballers have come out as gay I know one or two probably a lot or bisexual or whatever
18:33Dame Kelly Holmes:let's face it
18:34Rachel Johnson:or rugby players
18:35Dame Kelly Holmes:one Gareth Thomas
18:37Rachel Johnson:Gareth Thomas yeah yeah
18:57Dame Kelly Holmes:So, yeah, so basically the band got lifted. I was in sport, elite sport, had this fear of I could be jailed still, da-da-da, kept it quiet, manifested in bad mental health, really bad, and to the point where I needed to do it for my own self-worth and sanity. The apologies came. Only two years ago, Lord Efferton ran a review. I was part of that review trying to get veterans to come forward to talk about the treatment or mistreatment they had in the military if they were kicked out or jailed or court-martialed or stripped of medals, hats, long-service medals, 15 years. So somebody could have been on the front line, serving their country, and because they may well have had, be gay, they get kicked out.
19:42Dame Kelly Holmes:I mean, it doesn't make even one bit of sense. No, it doesn't compute at all. So as part of that, but what's happened recently, which is probably even, I would say for a lot of veterans, and I'm in touch with a lot, they feel validation now as they've just unveiled a memorial at the Arboretum Memorial Centre in Staffordshire. And it's called an open letter. So it's got all the words that veterans feel about the situation, but also about the pride they had in their military career and who they are. And the king unveiled it, which I thought was brilliant. And you were there? No, I wasn't able to get there.
20:29Dame Kelly Holmes:I was abroad. But I obviously, I mean, I just think it's wonderful.
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20:34Rachel Johnson:You're a real cheerleader, though, because, you know, you've spoken out and you've spoken up and you've called it out and you're incredibly articulate. and you were honoured for your you know your MBE you're an honorary colonel yeah honorary colonel
20:48Dame Kelly Holmes:I mean yeah I was that for six years I stood down earlier this year but yeah so I stood down 25 but I was doing it for six years you know I had this weird love hate love relationship with the military I loved my career I hated what they stood for and the things that happened I loved the connection with military and being a veteran and representing my country all of that absolutely love but I feel now that I've done my time and service however I'm a massive cheerleader for veterans and people who have served because I feel that people I've served have so much to give in society from the behaviours, attitudes, the respect, the drive, you know, everything that the military gives you, discipline.
21:36Dame Kelly Holmes:And I've met so many veterans over the years who are under multiple charities who, for whatever reason, you know, kind of in a bad way, haven't really had the respect of being a veteran in lots of ways, whether that be homelessness, medical support, mental health awareness or the LGBT thing. And so, you know, there's parts of me that feel still connected with that push to get the recognition that veterans deserve.
22:06Rachel Johnson:And then you were drawn into elite sport. So you had to, I suppose, choose between one and the other. You couldn't be winning golds for Team GB and being an honorary colonel. So explain your move into elite sport. It started the Commonwealth Games, didn't it?
22:23Dame Kelly Holmes:Yeah. so I'll pull it out so I was a sergeant during serving I became an honorary colonel which I earned in 2018 so very different kind of lives yeah when I was serving so this is before that yeah so this is way before that yeah so I joined when I was 18 when I was 22 I remember watching the Barcelona Olympic Games in my barrack room the same year that I was raided this is ironic and thinking oh my god my dream like to be Olympian was reignited with that whole Olympic movement. And I was running for the army, but only in my spare time because I was first and foremost, honestly, a soldier. That was all I wanted to do.
23:04Dame Kelly Holmes:I kept just beating the guys. So, of course, they realised that I was a good runner. And I ended up running at this army championships the following year when I was 23. And they made me run with the men. And they said, well, you keep beating all the women, so we're going to put you in the men's race. Well, I beat nearly all the men, but from like two, qualified for like the Commonwealth Games. Ended up going to the Commonwealth Games using my leave. I used to use my leave to go away and compete. That's 94. 94. Won the Commonwealth Games. Two weeks later, I won the European Champs. Go back into barracks and umpire a rounders match.
23:41Dame Kelly Holmes:That was the highest. Making people do burpees in the parade ground. That's it, right? So I had this kind of weird life. anyway uh could i have won gold when i was in the serving yes i went to my first olympic goes when i was 26 used my leave to go away and compete got a stress fracture end up coming fourth in the final changed my mindset of my ability to be good as an athlete carried on for another year serving full-time in the military and then decided after a big rupture of my achilles my calf that I want to concentrate full-time on being an athlete left the military when I was 27 to pursue my dream of being Olympic champion that's really the journey so between 27 and 34
24:24Rachel Johnson:I mean your apogee the apotheosis of the Dame Kelly Holmes phenomenon was that double wasn't it
24:31Dame Kelly Holmes:I mean just describe the arc to get there well the arc to get there was a roller coaster let's face it the highs and lows you know i was winning multiple medals but having multiple injuries seven years out of 12 years as an international athlete i had bad career threatening injuries yet i won 13 international medals so how do you do that you do that willpower
24:56Rachel Johnson:training determination resilience not giving up believing i ask you something i'm sure you've been asked this million times do you ever think to yourself as you collapsed, you know, having won your second gold. Age 34, I think.
25:13Dame Kelly Holmes:Oldest woman in the 8 and the 15.
25:15Rachel Johnson:Did you ever think, look at me now, Dad, or do you not? I mean, obviously, Dad is Mick, but you don't give a shit about the other one.
25:20Dame Kelly Holmes:No. I mean, he did try to get on my homecoming parade bus thing, apparently. Oh, well, that's telling, isn't it? But the police just told him not to bother, and he did a two-page spread that he taught me everything. But, you know, that's exactly what I mean. You know, who is this person? What a loser. Exactly. What a loser. So I don't need to have it even in my psyche. Oh, I'm so sorry about that.
25:40Rachel Johnson:Well, that just shows you the whole, you know, whatever. But listen, I'd like to talk a bit more because I was reading about your injuries. And I always think when I see an elite athlete, I know what it was like having periods and being a woman. Oh, something about those. It's like you have to kind of pretend none of that is going on.
26:02Dame Kelly Holmes:Oh, I had worse than that. I used to crawl off the track being sick and in so much pain. I'd have injections into my stomach because I had three operations, gyneops, when I was an athlete. I had cysts that had gone around the fallopian tubes. I had infections. I had a hole proper as though I was having a caesarean, but I had to push all the muscles away because I was still competing. But also they have to slice through your stomach muscles.
26:23Rachel Johnson:And if you're a runner, that's quite, you know, you're low down.
26:27Dame Kelly Holmes:They had to be really careful and push the muscles away so they didn't cut through them to do the ops. Okay, because I had a C-section, all my stomach muscles are sliced.
26:35Rachel Johnson:No, obviously as an elite athlete, they couldn't do that. But also a lot of elite athletes have had to have C-sections and then carry on. Yeah. But simply having a really painful period or endometriosis or adenomyosis can make you feel like just crawling into bed for a week. So I just don't understand how women athletes can do it. Oh, I did. I had an awful period, like properly awful. So how do you cope?
27:03Dame Kelly Holmes:Well, the thing is, I think the conversation has changed along with the menopause conversation. So there is a big push. So the women footballers, for example, when they became a lot bigger, I mean, they've been big for years, but now they're getting the profile. We were given white shorts. And the younger generation were like, no, we cannot have white shorts when we're on a period because the younger generation are using their voice for change, right? Which is brilliant. Because they're women, they're going to have periods. And Wimbledon allows black pants now. Right? So that's not that long a change.
27:37Dame Kelly Holmes:But I suppose all the things women do, just have to have done more coke, didn't they? But now they look at...
27:45Rachel Johnson:What if you're doing a final and you're on your period? Which I was multiple times. Does it make a difference to performance?
27:52Dame Kelly Holmes:It can do. Women are running and blood down their legs. I mean, it's just part of, unfortunately, part of life that we have to suffer, which people don't realise, do they? don't put that whole extra layer of complexity.
28:05Rachel Johnson:Probably men are fainting as they listen to this, by the way. Well, yeah, exactly. Bad luck.
28:09Dame Kelly Holmes:Exactly. But no, it was just part and parcel of it, and I used to have, like, bad, yeah, just real bad issues with that.
28:16Rachel Johnson:But you said half the things you go through as an athlete you don't tell people. You think you can now? I think athletes are telling people more, which is great.
28:28Dame Kelly Holmes:young girls saying the truth of it because that's the only way you make change isn't it you know i feel like you know this arc of societal change where we are now able to articulate because people are listening and we get the opening to do it which is always the struggle for women isn't it it's like this isn't new conversation this isn't new to any sports person or woman but now we are in the era where we now can talk for others that never spoke before us. And I think that's why we have to do it more. But we then have to push more to make the changes quicker and more, you know, the need for change quick because we can't have anyone else suffer.
29:08Dame Kelly Holmes:So if I can say, right, I suffered with this, I suffered with that, this happened, yeah, I didn't defy me, didn't stop me, didn't whatever, proves we can do it, but why can't we do it? Do this a little bit easier. Make life a bit easier for us to do it.
29:22Rachel Johnson:how difficult is it being a kind of british icon described as and yet that performance in 2004 steve cram of course said it was the greatest distance performance in ever in british running i have a theory from meeting a lot of people who've excelled and reached the top that actually success can be quite difficult was it for you um
29:48Dame Kelly Holmes:I don't think initially because I never thought one second past winning a gold medal. I've been dreaming of it for 20 years. Time for 12. Very, very close to getting it. Then you get it, right? I was 34, as you mentioned. And then it's there. Like, how do you then compute everything you've been thinking about, waking up about, your lifestyle is around it, and then you've done it. You haven't thought about that moment. What's the day after? How do you top it? You know, you can't. it's so hard you know i feel you know i was at the end of my career obviously then age 34 you'd podium twice yeah everyone's saying are you going to retire i'm like no i've not thought about it i didn't think about the second after my maybe winning it was always about trying to win so then the head goes into a different space right a different mindset of who am i now what do i do how do i keep that high level thought process because it does drive you and how do you maintain in the adrenaline levels too yeah i mean initially on a high let's face it well of course initially on a high and then life hits where you just think well who am i now and i think that's with anyone's uh careers that have been you know sustainable career or institutionalized as i call it where you've done a job for a long period of time and then life changes what do you do then you lose it a little bit i mean i i ended up having quite a bit of that roller coaster ride of mental health problems because I didn't really know who I am what do I do how do I feel where do I get that drive from you know where's my identity I think a lot of ex-service people do that a lot of people from sport and a lot of people in long-term careers go through that wave of anxiety and worry and what who are you I went through that I was lucky that in a way that I have always been driven to think of something that I'm passionate about make a difference make a change and start my charity, my own charity, off of nothing.
31:42Dame Kelly Holmes:I'm 17 years old now. I've helped disadvantaged young people from areas of deprivation because I always believe one person can make a difference, like my PE teacher. So we utilise the skills of retired and retiring athletes to become mentors and youth workers to help young people believe in themselves. Brilliant idea. So I kind of came up with these, what's my passion? What's it called? The Dame Kelly Holmes Trust, 17 years old. we've helped I don't know over a half a million young people and transitioned I think nearly 600 athletes but it's just something from passion
32:32Dame Kelly Holmes:have I changed people you say have you changed I'm like I've definitely changed in the last two years without doubt I'm a different person which is weird in the last two years yeah not three
32:41Rachel Johnson:what's whoa what's happened in the last two years to change you i know who i am and i've got eyes
32:47Dame Kelly Holmes:wide open and i'm very comfortable in my own skin i'm like literally i show up i never showed up as before i'd have a title i'd have a name i'd have credibility achievements all of those things but when i was able to come out three years ago to finally find my freedom that first year was still even though when I think back I think that year I'm like oh my god you know I've sort of been able to say it's really scary like changing the narrative of now I'm stepping up to who I am and don't care what you think it's that wasn't that was not the change it was I need to do this because otherwise my mental health my mental health was so low I need to be able to have a freedom to not care what people think right that was my own uh internalized kind of maybe irrational way of thinking of fear I freed that from myself then I was finding well now what's Kelly Ohms you know what I mean the Kelly Ohms that now everyone knows freaking gay and all this stuff what did that actually mean and actually what it ends up meaning is that I don't have to be apologetic anymore i can still be driven i can now show up be honest open transparent with how i feel about any any conversation and be happy and bubbly and show my true flair and color and dress how i want to dress when i go to an event and not worry that people are going to point me out like a sore thumb i've totally changed i've also hit the bucket switch i mean you know you of life where you just think, well, you know, I reflect on losing my mum eight years ago.
34:30Rachel Johnson:I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. It's a massive moment. Yeah. Because she was, I mean, you had Mick. He's still alive. Yes. But that relationship, hugely important to you. Yeah.
34:42Dame Kelly Holmes:It was a hard, you know, again, with relationships, it was a, you know, with anything, with a parent, I suppose, you have these sort of moments where you hate each other, love each other, whatever, but she was always my constant in my head. She's the only constant thing there from when I was born. You know what I mean? So I always had that. So losing that part of me was difficult, really difficult. And good she was only 17 years older than me, you start thinking of timelines, right? She could be an older sister, really. Yeah. You know, you end up as you get older thinking, oh my gosh, you know because my nan her mom my nan was 98 i was thought oh i'm gonna live to 100.
35:24Dame Kelly Holmes:She was in her 60s it was myeloma which is a very very difficult one. Yeah she's 63 so as i've got older you know i know it's bad and i don't want to think the worst but you just think hold on a minute what if and i go to this this is how i wake up now and this has come in this last two years is that i think right we don't know how long we've got we can have you know a narrative around why we think we should live this long or what we do differently to somebody else or whatever. But I just think to myself, if I've only been happy, real happy in my life at this age for like, let's say two years, okay, what if I've only got that amount of time?
36:05Rachel Johnson:I've got to be happy every day. I need to be happy. Given that you've had this extraordinary success and recognition and honours and medals and everything, and yet it's taken you this long to be true to yourself, what what do you say to somebody who is struggling with their identity or with their abilities or what they want to do with their lives what what would you say to them to to tell them it will be all right and to kind of keep pushing forward yeah is the thing your life matters people forget that
36:37Dame Kelly Holmes:their life matters we we drive our life around work and family members and things like that because of course that's the thing the normality but people forget they are also a person that should strive and thrive and be happy so take control of who you are secondly if you have fear of anything around your world sometimes it is so irrational because you can't you always think the worst of the other side of the fear but i know the other side of the fear is literally your freedom to be more in tune with who you are, to know who actually really cares about you. And I think once you break through that fear barrier, that little, you know, that line of, oh my gosh, everyone knows they want something different.
37:21Dame Kelly Holmes:Everyone knows they want to feel better in themselves. Everyone knows what they really want in their life, but you have that block, that brick wall that stops you for whatever reason. You have to break through it. Like you don't know what's around the corner. we don't know how long we're going to live I don't want to get to a point where I go why didn't I why couldn't I live the life I wanted to live which is why I made the decision to do what I did in 2022 because when I'm lying on my sofa thinking when I die everyone else is going to say isn't it a shame that Kelly Holmes couldn't live my family isn't a shame that Kelly couldn't live her life I thought that's my right and that woke me up to making a change because I want to be the person that stands up and say this is who I am
38:04Rachel Johnson:I tell you something, nobody will say that when you die, Kelly. Not one person.
38:09Dame Kelly Holmes:Not now.
38:09Rachel Johnson:Not one person. When have you had to be most difficult?
38:13Dame Kelly Holmes:When I've had to be most difficult. My most difficult times? You can choose. Oh. When have you had to be most difficult? So, you know, when you don't want people to judge anything about you, it's kind of like you'll say yes, people please. You say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I got to a point where I have to say no, because otherwise you don't have any control. You have to say, I'm really sorry, but I cannot. then you realise that people were just pushing to try and then as soon as you say polite, sorry I can't they're like oh thank you very much for getting back to me and that flipping that switch, you can say no you can say no because we always are some of my lovely women WhatsApp groups of women of all different places you might know Rosie Nixon from Hello Magazine and lots of different people that I've met in this last couple of years because I'm meeting people because I feel you know this draw to get to know people and I've met the most wonderful people we have this one little group and we're like hashtag at capacity because we were some are mothers some are you know uh general managers of hotels some are just whatever and we're like hashtag at capacity we're all at capacity in our lives aren't we sometimes you know what I mean we get to a point we just think god I can't I can't do anymore oh i can't say keep saying yes so i've been i feel my most difficult times were always
39:38Rachel Johnson:saying no now it's like no i love i'm gonna steal the fuck it switch yeah i thought i'd invented the fuck it list you know like the bucket list and i think i was probably one of the first people to write it uh-huh but the fuck it switch is so great i say that all the time also we've got zero fucks left to give yeah don't care flick it when you need it because otherwise if you don't love it um i'm not going to ask you about your personal relationships i hope you're happy and you know good you know i hope you're going great guns you're you're incredible you're stunning you know fill your boots is what i say oh bless you you know my daughter came out when she was 27 oh wow okay and she's marrying her girlfriend in december oh fantastic the whole I love that.
40:27Rachel Johnson:And I love that you're just, this is what it is. I mean, it's weird. It feels so unbelievably natural. I thought it was going to be weird, like her telling my dad. Yeah. My mum's, my mother's thrill. You know, my mother was thrilled. It's like, it's so natural. Why did we ever make a fuss about this?
40:46Dame Kelly Holmes:And that's a strange thing, that unknown becomes this sort of variety of people, isn't it? That unknown of how you deal with what that means.
40:54Rachel Johnson:We othered it for so long, but it's actually part of us. Yeah. And it's such an odd thing.
41:00Dame Kelly Holmes:Yeah.
41:00Rachel Johnson:Because if you talk about your husband, it's a normal conversation for you, isn't it? But also, I do believe in the spectrum as well. Or whoever. Yeah, but it's the spectrum as well. The idea that some people are this and other people are that. And this is normal and that is not. It's actually, it's factually and biologically incorrect. Okay.
41:19Dame Kelly Holmes:I've got this, this, this, so this, uh, cover his name, but he's, he's a young guy. He does poems and things. And it was, it was so good. I saw it the other day. I wish I remember his name. I've been following him now. And, uh, he was saying, you know, when he's at school, he learnt the birds and the bees. He said, but if they just said bees, bees and bees like each other, cause that's how they make honey. You know what I mean? Birds and birds like each other. Cause that, cause actually that's true. They separated these two things like birds and the bees, but actually bees, actually bees and bees.
41:49Dame Kelly Holmes:right and the fact is you might have different bees and you might have the girl bees and the boy bees they still make honey but it doesn't mean that bees don't like bees the same with birds and birds and I thought same as being in school when they were talking about you know sex education or blowing up condoms with mates because we're seeing the balloons going around and there was not any other differences to that conversation it has changed and people used to say to me well did you not know that you again I'm like well where would I have had that even knowledge that there was a thing it wasn't that i was against it i just didn't even think about anything like that now fortunately it's changed that people are like yeah we we're all on a spectrum anyway let's face it in the world of everything but just let people be you know i just feel like how why do people control somebody else's life we're all gonna die we've all got blood we've all got this why are you making something another crazy thing yeah oh that's
42:44Rachel Johnson:I mean, sorry, why do we rule the world or judge people on the basis of how much melatonin or melanin they have in their skin? It's another complete insanity that presumably we will look back on in generations to come and think, we were so odd. If you actually look in history, most people were black back in the day anyway.
43:05Dame Kelly Holmes:I mean, that's the thing. Most people's DNA who are white, if you go through your ancestry, will somehow come back to the original species, which were pretty much black anyway. And if you think about the global majority is people of colour. It's not the minority. So that's such a...
43:23Rachel Johnson:And we call black and brown people a minority characteristic here in this country. Which makes it ironic. Well, I suppose it's because in terms of share of population. It could be population. But again, why does it have to be a thing? it's kind of like I know I don't get I'm so bored of it don't get the thing you so just so bored of
43:41Dame Kelly Holmes:I'm bored of hatred I'm bored of fighting I'm bored of trying to people make people go against each other because you can bring a narrative together that looks like everybody's thinking the same where actually people just want to get on like you know I mean because if I go stand in some area I do my speaking engagements corporate speaking they talk about I don't know black lives matter which i never really even engaged with that conversation prior to lockdown with george floyd and all of that lot because i felt i'm so ignorant i have no right to talk about
44:12Rachel Johnson:people of color and their culture because it's a culture thing it's also it's massively reductive to think that you would be interested in black lives matter just because of your skin color or want to get aligned with that movement well yeah because there's assumptions so this goes
44:26Dame Kelly Holmes:back to our own thought process it's an assumption isn't it so if i stand there i was very I getting asked to do that a very ignorant being from a white community my culture is a Kent girl you know I stand up in people now and I go look people if they didn't know Dame Kelly Holmes they're willing to put you and be blah blah blah I'd be put in this category of people right and they would then either the anti my colour of my skin you know there'd be those bigotry bullying da da da da whatever black lives matter thing all of that and I'll just say but the fact of the matter is is that you can only understands your you but it doesn't stop you trying to try and understand other people you know what I mean because I can go there and be on a stage with people the same color but my journey is completely different to you the same as you be on a stage with white perceived white people find out where they're from you have a completely different life a completely different background complete but the color skin should connect you how the only connection can be is whether you're a good human being.
45:32Dame Kelly Holmes:We have the same values. You know, I like your personality and whatever. I don't care what color you are, where you're from, what you do, but do I connect with you? We keep getting away from human connection. We try and divide. Why are we trying to, who is trying to divide us? It's only, you know, certain people, but that's the thing. The human connection is about, do we fit? You know, it's like your friends, isn't it? You connect with somebody who are completely different to you in your world, but somewhere down the line, you came across each other and now they're your best mate. You'd hang out with them, right?
46:07Dame Kelly Holmes:Why aren't you leader of some party?
46:10Rachel Johnson:Just to bring common sense back and a bit of kindness. But listen, that's all we've got to have for. Thank you very much, Dame Kelly Holmes, for being this week's completely fabulous Difficult Woman.
46:36Rachel Johnson:I am definitely going to be flicking the fuck it switch every day from now on. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. Just remember to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday. Bye.
47:12We'll be right back.
From the publisher
In this week’s episode of Difficult Women Rachel is joined by Olympian Dame Kelly Holmes. Kelly won double gold at the 2004 Olympics in Athens, racing to victory in both the 800 and 1500 meters at the age of 34. The conversation rarely stays on the track, however. Underpinning Kelly’s dazzling athletic achievements is a tumultuous childhood in which she spent 5 years in care and experienced ‘a fear of abandonment’ as a result. Kelly opens up about learning to stop caring what others think and how that shift transformed her life just two years ago.