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Podcast Summary: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women - Episode 195: Dame Denise Lewis
Podcast Overview Title: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women Description: A podcast featuring women who have defied norms and expectations, embracing the label "difficult" as a badge of honor while sharing their unique journeys and struggles.
Episode Details Episode Title: 195. Dame Denise Lewis Episode Description: This episode features Dame Denise Lewis, Olympic gold medalist in the Heptathlon. The conversation covers her journey through motherhood, her sports career, and her ongoing fight against injustices in athletics.
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Key Themes and Discussions
Dame Denise Lewis' Background
- Early Life:
- Raised by a single mother, Joan, who immigrated from Jamaica.
- Discussed the challenges her mother faced as a young, unmarried parent in the UK.
- Mother's Influence:
- Joan instilled a strong work ethic and discipline in Denise.
- Denise reflects on her upbringing and how it shaped her self-sufficiency.
Athletic Career
- Achievements:
- Gold medalist at the 2000 Sydney Olympics in the Heptathlon.
- Bronze medalist at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics.
- Mental Resilience:
- Emphasized the importance of mental training, stating that much of success in sports comes from mental strength rather than just physical capability.
- Discussed competing with injuries and the mental strategies used to perform under pressure.
Motherhood and Career Challenges
- Balancing Roles:
- Shared her experience of becoming a mother while being at the peak of her athletic career, which posed significant challenges.
- Faced criticism and skepticism about her ability to balance motherhood and athletics from coaches and the media.
- Returning to Competition:
- After giving birth, Denise faced difficulties in returning to the sport, including losing her coach’s support.
- Overcame societal expectations and personal struggles to compete again.
Personal Growth and Current Endeavors
- Evolution Over Time:
- Discussed how motherhood changed her perspective on discipline and self-sufficiency.
- Reflected on the differences in parenting styles compared to her mother's strict approach.
- Current Role:
- Now serves as the President of UK Athletics and advocates against the injustices she faced.
- Involved in modeling and public speaking, promoting body positivity and self-acceptance.
Reflection on Legacy
- Damehood:
- Felt a sense of validation when receiving her damehood, reflecting on the sacrifices her family made.
- Expressed pride in representing her heritage and the significance of her achievements for the Caribbean community.
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Key Takeaways
- Difficult Women:
- The podcast celebrates women like Denise who embrace challenges and fight against societal expectations.
- Mental Strength in Sports:
- Success in athletics requires both physical prowess and mental resilience.
- Motherhood and Professionalism:
- Women can successfully balance motherhood and professional aspirations, although it often requires overcoming societal stigma.
- Advocacy and Legacy:
- Denise Lewis uses her platform to advocate for change within athletics and empower future generations of female athletes.
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Conclusion This episode of "Difficult Women" highlights the journey of Dame Denise Lewis, showcasing her resilience, the complexities of balancing motherhood with a professional athletic career, and her ongoing commitment to advocating for equality in sports. The conversation serves as an inspiring reminder of the power of determination and the importance of lifting each other up.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Dame Denise Lewis:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:11Dame Denise Lewis:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do. Though I say so myself, my conversation with Dame Denise Lewis, the retired Olympian and current lingerie model is an absolute treat. I especially liked it when she talked about her investiture for her damehood, which she went to the palace with her mum. It's a lovely listen. Welcome to Difficult Women.
1:03Dame Denise Lewis:dame denise lewis is a former team gb track and field athlete specialized in the heptathlon you won gold uh in the 2000 sydney olympics bronze at the 1996 atlanta olympics you're also an author a mother of four four the youngest of whom named troy was born when you were 46 so absolute props to you you announced earlier this month last month that you'd separated well you had been separated from your husband um and that's that's all over but you're beaming i met you i think we should tell everyone at a lingerie event for coco de mer which is the kind of saucy undercrackers sex toys empire and you were doing a modelling event.
1:53Dame Denise Lewis:I booked you immediately. I took one look at you and I thought, Denise Lewis, you are mine. You've been one of the golden girls of British athletics. You've been runner up a couple of times for sports personality of the year and you received a damehood in 2023. I mean, there ain't nothing like a dame, especially when one looks like you by the way i should also say you're an author and i went online to buy adaptability which i'd love you to tell us the secrets of success in seven lessons but guess what i ended up buying tell me the flat tummy book you'd never do i did and it's like the best kept secret
2:34Rachel Johnson:rachel hardly anyone knows that i i'm not just a newbie author i i actually attempted to write another book in fact I did write a book I did all the pictures and it was of its time I think it was actually quite a good book even if I say so myself because I used to have I've never had a very flat tummy but since menopause oh middle-aged spread is real Denise it is real and we all get it in various guises some more than others it's fair to say but I just think you have to accept the changes that we go through we're constantly evolving we should be adapting and that requires you adapting to you know these these differences that you you acquire and my stomach used to be a washboard it was amazing I didn't appreciate it because it just came so easily to me and after four children my stomach is different and I've had to get used to it because my body has served me well your body has allowed you to have this amazing life and career um and you should appreciate it it doesn't say you have to love everything about it but understand that this is
3:50Dame Denise Lewis:part of your evolution your change and also fighting it i mean doesn't it's never gonna things are only going one way at the moment so there's no point in in just stressing about something that's inevitable i really want to start with your origin story because it's actually fascinating you're brought up by a single mother in wolverhampton um your mother joan just just tell us about the beginnings my mom um it's just i would say she was a grafter she worked so hard um and yes we were a little team of two so before we even get to that she came from jamaica when she She was 11. I mean, I'm thinking Windrush, was she?
4:33Rachel Johnson:No, she was post-Windrush. Her mother actually came over in the Windrush generation. And so to make a better life, the call to action, as so many Caribbean people were of that time to come and help what was a failing NHS, to rebuild and bolster that. And so my grandmother retrained and she became a nurse. And that's why she's then sent over back, sent for my mom to join her back in the UK because she was like, I want my daughter here as well.
5:09Dame Denise Lewis:So she left Joan behind in Jamaica. So Joan came over when she was 11. Yes. And at 17, she became pregnant with you, I think. That's a very young age. And you've never wanted to meet or you don't know who your father is.
5:26Rachel Johnson:I didn't want to meet him. My mum did encourage me to, but there was just, I don't know whether it's that first step of a strong sense of self that I must have had. Because I said to my mum, I don't want to do that. I don't really feel that I need to do that. I never really had a yearning because I got everything that I needed from my mother. And so I don't know whether that's something within me or I was in denial. I don't know. But I never have felt that I missed out.
6:04Dame Denise Lewis:Did you ever want to know anything about him? I wasn't curious. Is that strange? It is interesting because I know that people who've been adopted or, you know, maybe children of sperm donors or whatever, surrogacy, they sometimes want to find out. They've got this kind of urge. They feel incomplete. but you definitely didn't I definitely didn't I don't recall ever sitting there being curious
6:30Rachel Johnson:and I don't know whether that's that's a fault in my DNA but you know I've had my friends I have girlfriends have asked me that same question many a time do you not want to know anything photos of him no photos you've never seen a photo of him no that's wild isn't it did your mother
6:49Dame Denise Lewis:keep up with him or was it a kind of one night stand sorry to be so bored no i i don't actually
6:55Rachel Johnson:know to be honest because it's not my it's not my journey i don't feel you're right journey it's not it's my mother's journey and my but it's my mother's journey um i'm i've been born into i was born into a world and this was the cards that i was dealt and at any point and well she played
7:19Dame Denise Lewis:them well you played your hand you had what looked like quite a poor hand a couple that you know single mother you were a person of color in a country that's white majority yes was unforgiving
7:33Rachel Johnson:you know that's the history that um you know that my my grandmother has shared with me rest her soul and my mother talked about and has been i think over the years more able to talk about her journey and her story and just how difficult it was to be a single parent black woman in the 70s.
7:54Dame Denise Lewis:Unmarried.
7:55Rachel Johnson:Unmarried. And so, you know, some of the privileges she just wasn't entitled to. You know, she had to get someone to underwrite, you know, her first property. And it was just a struggle. But she made the best of her situation. She worked always full time. So I was in nursery from a very young age. She understood the importance of working and had that work ethic from, obviously, her background. And when you're a minority in this country, they end up working extremely hard. Double jobs. Double jobs. What did she do? She was a typist clerk at what was GKN Sankey's for a good few years. and then after after she was made redundant I think redundancy I vaguely remember some her talking about that and then it was a case of finding more I guess other jobs so she worked in the care system for the elderly so she's been a caregiver for a long majority of my life and And then she worked at the post office.
9:09Rachel Johnson:So she was doing two jobs. She was working all day, coming home, taking a shower and then going off to do night work. Was she ever under pressure to put you up for adoption or into a foster home? I think at birth. At birth. She tells me the story of being approached by a particular nurse at the time when she was in hospital. she'd just delivered me and some papers were shoved in front of her face for her to kind of consider and sign and you can imagine you're 17 you're a child still and having to make these decisions and someone said well if you haven't really got anywhere to go this might be your best option and
9:58Dame Denise Lewis:She was unhoused when she had you
10:00Rachel Johnson:She was unhoused, yeah
10:01Dame Denise Lewis:I mean you're both so strong
10:04Rachel Johnson:I just don't know that it's it's the strength it's it's the survival instinct that kicks in I think at that point and and also having someone who signposts you and I talk about this in my book there was a lady that um one of the nurses said to her look you need to find someone who was going to take you in otherwise it will be a it's going to be a problem but she made it work she did make
10:30Dame Denise Lewis:it work and you were a latchkey kid I mean in the old days we were latchkey kids and we were in the
10:36Rachel Johnson:streets I seem to remember well I did I didn't roam the streets because my mom was very strict so roaming the streets I didn't do my mom was very aware um that she wanted me to get involved in community activities or find a sport or something to do an activity so I was in I danced from a very young age on a Saturday morning I didn't roam the streets my mum was very as you can remember I was precious so she didn't let me just run wild at all she was very much you need to be here she taught me the routines the disciplines that one needs to have in life um so I was very much okay I know to get up to have my breakfast get myself ready for school and do all of those things from the point where I was able to do it.
11:30Dame Denise Lewis:I bet you've made your children the same. Or are you more of a helicopter? I'll get your bag ready. I'll do your pat lunch. Is this confessions?
11:39Rachel Johnson:It is possibly more the latter.
11:42Dame Denise Lewis:That's because in a way you want to give the children... It's the pendulum swing. Exactly. You want to give your children the childhood you didn't have.
11:48Rachel Johnson:Totally. And I think I've swung the pendulum too far the other way to the point where I just like, what is wrong with these children? They are incapable of doing anything for themselves. Much to my frustration. And this is what I'm trying. I've delved into my own journey to understand why I've become that.
12:12Dame Denise Lewis:It's not difficult, is it, Denise? You had to be so self-sufficient. Your mother had to be so disciplined with you in order for this, you to be safe and your little unit to survive, that was the way it had to be. But now you are Dame Denise Lewis. You are world famous, stunning mother of four. And it doesn't have to be like that.
12:35Rachel Johnson:No. But, you know, it's a point where you look at your children and thinking how far removed they are from not even your values, but it's also just your experience. And so I've been wrestling with that. To the point where I've just had to say, look, it's a different time. It's a different energy. I've helped create this codependency that they seem to have.
13:04Dame Denise Lewis:It is a rod for one's back, isn't it? I've done it too. And your mother, but your mother not just gave to you. She spent her life realising that she's contributed hugely to the wider society.
13:16Rachel Johnson:To the wider society, she has. she's been, because she has such a strong work ethic and you know whether she was in the care system for the elderly or helping young adults in care, she's always tried to give back. She sounds amazing. She's amazing.
13:54Dame Denise Lewis:your teachers at school thought you were going to be the country's first female prime minister but margaret thatcher pipped you to that post didn't she just but i don't know they must have
14:04Rachel Johnson:seen something in me that i guess you would never be aware of as a child but i i think i was quite confident at times and once I found my groove I started to let my personality come out and my nursery teacher Wendy I remember as clear as day I just maybe gravitated to people because I lived at home with just my mum I liked having a lot of people around me and enjoyed just the atmosphere of nursery I actually can remember nursery I don't know whether you can but I can remember some of the songs the games we used to play and wendy was was such a beacon for me at that time and i think she just took a shine to me
14:55Dame Denise Lewis:um to you tell us about getting into sports and how whether you finding your tribe in your groove
15:01Rachel Johnson:was was always sport i thought it was going to be dancing but um um sport just lit a bulb for me and I've always enjoyed the physical aspect of being a sportswoman but athletics for me was just the welcoming space the community that I guess I craved and I was good I was good at it you know I used to look forward to sports day I used to enjoy running and and jumping and throwing even as a young child but then when I joined my athletics club back in Wolverhampton that's when it all started to make sense to me and I watched the Olympics and it's well documented that light bulb moment was just okay that's where I'd like to be you said I want to be an Olympian
15:51Dame Denise Lewis:but you have to have everything to be an Olympian you have to have the determination the discipline the athleticism the drive all of it and you have to have a compliant body
16:02Rachel Johnson:because there are so many gifted people that don't make it because the body just lets them down.
16:09Dame Denise Lewis:But you've had your struggles with injuries and you've described winning races when you are literally broken and it's been like mind over matter and mind over muscle. How on earth does that work?
16:22Rachel Johnson:It is mental training. It is the ability to trust, you know, intrinsically trust that you will get through it. And part of your team, your team, you're so reliant on your physios, the people in your support team to give you that confidence that if you are going to pick up an injury, that they'll be there to get you through it as quickly as possible. So even without having done, I guess, good work in the lead up to some of the championships, I wasn't 100 percent. I often been in championships where I'm probably 75 percent there physically. But I was able to get the best and extract the best out of myself mentally because of that constant mental rehearsal.
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17:13Rachel Johnson:The doing bits, the seeing the process, feeling the environment. been able to zoom in to you know focus and zoom out when you're feeling anxious or over concerned so these are tools that we can do we use in our lives when you are feeling stress or um yeah just feel like you're you're overawed so you know that's i think sport is just a a small cosme of what one can do with their mind and body under pressure.
17:50Dame Denise Lewis:It's very interesting you say that, that so much of winning and competing is the mental challenge. And I didn't see that. You just think, oh, that person's the fastest. You know, Usain Bolt's going to win because he's the fastest, but his head has got to be in the right place, or your head. You've also said that about your drive, I just read this out when you're from a migrant family that sense of pride that the Caribbean imparts to the next generation to work hard. I think that work ethic from my mum really did land with me. Do you think your background was a major driver for you?
18:29Rachel Johnson:I think so. I think so. In fact, I believe so. So just all of the elements of, I guess, discipline, routine, small routines helped me get through that period where it could be quite daunting. I think to my six year old now, how much he is reliant on me. I couldn't leave him to get on with anything right now. I just couldn't I don't think he's capable because of the way I've been there and I'm constantly scaffolding him in his every moment my mum couldn't do that so you have to learn to step up and get through it and I think my background and the work ethic that is drilled into you from your legacy and your history make you aware and more self-aware of how much you have to work.
19:30Rachel Johnson:And how much you have to prove. And how much you have to prove. And I don't know whether it's for me, it was, in fact, yes, my mom has been a massive driver because I know how much she's sacrificed and the uncertainty she's had throughout most of my childhood, whether she was doing the right thing and me becoming the woman I had today it feels like validation for her sacrifice she came to the palace with you presumably when you got your damehood she really did what was that like very emotional um very emotional to watch her standing there while um princess princess royal kind of gave me my my medals etc i could see she was beaming through the corner of my eye and the whole getting ready process in the morning was was beautiful you know in that's testament to the whole legacy my grandmother coming over working as you know in the NHS it's it's more than a job you know it's it's it's it's very it's a life of giving and my grandmother wasn't able to make it to see what I'd become in my entirety you know she she hasn't she didn't get to see all of it but my mom my mom is is is there and she's lived it all and she's so super proud so proud um so it was it was a culmination for me of that was like um validation because you have to know that a lot of uh jamaican and caribbean um people from that era from the 50s and 60s really did idolize the motherland you know So Britain was supposed to be that place that we all felt part of.
21:24Rachel Johnson:But we idolised the Queen at the time, our then Queen. And so to be part of that sort of Commonwealth history, legacy and surviving and doing well and getting to a certain standing in life was just amazing. And we don't take that for granted.
21:45Dame Denise Lewis:it I'm sure it was the most special moment but I mean probably even more special than watching you win gold when you had like I'm reading foot ankle and calf injuries and you took you took gold I mean it was that in the city in 2000 yeah I just I cannot I cannot get my head around racing, what was it, 800 metres? When you're injured, how do you do it, Denise?
22:20Rachel Johnson:Desire. You don't get to, you know, two days of heptathlon. You, you, I did so much work to get to the start line. I was not going to be undone at that 11th hour, you know. It was very much a sense of, you have come so far in your journey I'd be damned if I'm going to you know stumble and fall at this this last hurdle and so getting through those two laps for me were just I was almost like a robot you know I got myself into such a zone that this is the race of my life this is my moment and I'm going to
22:59Dame Denise Lewis:take it it's just extraordinary and apparently you would you then danced around the stadium wrapped in a junior jack nobody could forget that and then you did parkinson with dolly parton oh
23:13Rachel Johnson:i mean just like pinch me you know parkinson's he was a total legend and we use that word but he was just incredible the most warm human being and he loved sport i know he loved his cricket but he
23:28Dame Denise Lewis:really did love sport so he must have watched you and thought i'm gonna book denise like i as soon
23:33Rachel Johnson:as i saw you i was like i'm gonna book denise um yeah and you know there's certain um shows or people that you think okay that is desert island discs certain institution shows for this our country that you just like if i can get on that show then i've arrived and parkinson at the time was the show. You know, the amount of just grade A guests that he had on his show. And he just thought, and then there's little of me. Then I'm going to go and sit on Parkinson's.
24:06Dame Denise Lewis:Do you think everybody has imposter syndrome?
24:08Rachel Johnson:I mean, if you do, yeah. I think so. And that's OK.
24:12Dame Denise Lewis:It shows you're human. I think if you don't have it, you're not really normal. No.
24:36Dame Denise Lewis:We talk about difficult times and when you've had to be difficult. And obviously being an elite athlete, a gold medalist, an Olympian, and then having a child and then returning to the sport, there must have created some challenges. Oh, yes.
24:53Rachel Johnson:Oh, yes. well let's talk about those those dark era that era when you know it was you couldn't be both you had to be sportswoman yeah or a mother when i um at the top of my game i was olympic champion um and i was going to enter into motherhood so it wasn't really on my agenda um and so i was it It was a happy accident because becoming a mother is an absolute blessing. You know, it's not afforded to everyone. And so I was like, OK, let's let's go with it. This is obviously going to be a new challenge. And in my head at the time, I didn't think, does this mean the end of my career? I thought, well, I don't feel like I want to retire, but I'm going to have this baby and let's see.
25:49Rachel Johnson:But a whole load of drama has unfolded because my coach wasn't very impressed. That's well documented. He thought I was. He dropped you. He literally dropped me like a hot cake. And I wonder what he thinks now. Oh, we've we've we've patched it up. We've spoken about it. We've you know, I've called him a lot of very unsavory names. And he's actually apologized because I think he he wasn't he didn't have the experience of knowing what to do.
26:19Dame Denise Lewis:either and whether he just must have thought she's pregnant she'll never run again
26:24Rachel Johnson:she won't totally um she won't be as committed she'll have reasons to be distracted all of the negative connotations that are associated with working working moms in you know that's you know she's going to not be able to do her job as well it's like of course i can that might mean i i'm There's just more, there's less time for faff. I'll have to be much more focused and much more disciplined. And so we parted ways. It was very difficult for a few years. I felt like I was fighting everybody just to be just respected for my choice.
27:06Dame Denise Lewis:Do you think that you set a precedent that other female athletes could follow, that you can have a baby and return to the track?
27:15Rachel Johnson:I wouldn't claim that title, if I'm honest, Rachel. I just think it was so uncomfortable for me and it left me feeling quite resentful for a long time. But society moves on and society changes. So I don't think at that time I was that voice that was championing women returning. But I had my own journey. I spoke about my own journey. And I don't know that it sparked a particular wave of women or sports women having babies. I think that came still much later on because society or definitely sport wasn't still ready to welcoming.
27:58Dame Denise Lewis:That was 23 years ago you had your first daughter. Yes, that's right.
28:01Rachel Johnson:23 years ago.
28:02Dame Denise Lewis:It's so recent. You know, the idea that you have to like, it's like in the 70s when if you got married, you had to leave the civil service. you were left you know women could be a teacher but you know there were certain things you couldn't do but you've shown you can yes because then you carried on competing i do clearly and the sporting world has welcomed you back in big time you know sports personality of the year finalists so many
28:27Rachel Johnson:couple of times couple of times but that was still in my heyday yeah i'd like to say and And that was the road to Sydney and obviously post-Sydney. But, you know, I would say those three years, I felt like I had to prove myself. And because I just wouldn't fold and I just became more, I think I became tougher. I became much more, I think I was an angry person at that time before because of what I had to go through. But I got through it. I then went to the next championships, the world championships. I was also nervous about my pay cut that I would be having with a certain brand I was sponsored by at that time.
29:14Rachel Johnson:And so I just continued to compete and say, look, this is I'm back. I am here. And you can't deny that I've actually overcome the challenge that you thought I wasn't going to. and I think at that point my coach was like yeah I think I got that one wrong and we worked together for another sort of 18 months or so
29:36Dame Denise Lewis:The 2004 Athens Olympics, tell us about that you had Lauren with you I had Lauren with me She was how old? She was two And so you thought I can do all this, I can do it all I can come, I can compete, I can bring my baby And what happened?
29:54Rachel Johnson:I continued to train as you would to prepare for the Olympics. But it became, again, very clear that in order to be part of this Teen GB at that time, I wouldn't be able to bring my daughter to any of the prep camps. That was a stipulation, which obviously I went along with because I didn't have any choice. yeah um so so larm joined me um in an adjacent hotel and and with my mom with your mom with my mom she yeah god she was literally a godsend during that time she gave it work for a whole year to help me get myself back on the track and look after her granddaughter so she accompanied me out to that training camp that prep camp yeah uh a couple of times in order to watch my daughter to why I could train but I wasn't able to be with my other teammates in the same way as everyone
30:54Dame Denise Lewis:else and you withdrew in Athens it says yes I did I did from the heptathlon do you know what
31:01Rachel Johnson:I looking back and I think I alluded to this earlier those couple of years um having Lauren losing my coach and feeling like I was battling to prove myself, I think took its toll on me mentally and physically because I was just like a woman possessed trying to say, I'm not done, I'm not done. And I don't know whether the cortisol levels, so the stress levels were quite high. But by the time I got to the Olympics, I was literally, I felt burnt out. I really felt burnt out mentally and physically and my body just shut down. You've described the years after winning gold as the icky years.
31:51Dame Denise Lewis:Yeah. Not in the ick sense of Love Island but in a kind of sense of you just didn't feel right.
31:56Rachel Johnson:No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't feel contented because I don't feel my sport showed me the love that I had for it. That's how I felt. Really? Yeah. Yeah. What did you want to feel afterwards? I think because, you know, after the Olympics, you know, I had such a I had a wonderful time. I got to do some amazing things. I was accused of partying too hard, which was not the case. you know I was just you celebrated I was celebrated you know my life's work to that point you know and then you felt punished for it and then I felt punished for it great but remember the press were quite savage back then like they changed yes they
32:43Dame Denise Lewis:I can't believe they went after you what did they go after you for?
32:49Rachel Johnson:there was just the fact that I'm in 2001 I didn't compete at the world championship so there was all the accusations that I, you know, as people do, that they've assumed that I'd been partying too much and therefore unable to, you know, train enough, compete enough and do the things that, you know, I used to do. But injuries prevented me from actually getting to the point of being well.
33:21Dame Denise Lewis:I do think that the media and society is harder on women who succeed than on men who succeed. And the wish to tear them down is almost instant. And that you are such a good example of that.
33:35Rachel Johnson:I was back then. Yeah. But you're caught in that bubble. So it's all heightened. The emotions are heightened. The feelings that I had at the time was very much that. my goodness how someone else can actually reframe your narrative if you let them you know I was queen of the world you know top of the top and then pulled down almost instantly for the choices that I made um and I was like who do I want to believe do I believe that I'm
34:13Dame Denise Lewis:what was wrong about your choices that you had a child that you wanted to bring the baby to prep camp i mean what who could query any of this that you wanted to celebrate your gold it's incredible welcome to great britain you know is what it's like you have to take the rough with
34:30Rachel Johnson:the smooth you do have to take the rough with the smooth and but you also have to redefine who you want to be and whether you're going to listen to that narrative and let it get the best of you
34:40Dame Denise Lewis:and don't let it define you you do not let it define you haven't you retired age 32 and you're so young doesn't it no so you're a baby you got married you had two more boys and then lastly you've had your new your son troy who's six aged 46 yes how did that i mean miracle another virgin birth just virgin birth yes no i always say that second babies are immaculate
35:10Rachel Johnson:conceptions no he's oh the choice again you know i had been well we had been trying and i had a miscarriage and so that sort of affected me and and yeah and at the time i i was like well maybe
35:26Dame Denise Lewis:i should be very grateful yeah no absolutely it's a it's like what do you call it um it's not not a gift or anything it's an autumn i don't know there are lots of words when you have a late baby I mean Cherie Blair had one in her 40s that's right
35:40Rachel Johnson:and it seems to be I wouldn't say more of a trend but a lot more women are making the choice
35:46Dame Denise Lewis:my grandmother had one at 40
35:47Rachel Johnson:41 I think so you know it happens it does happen it's obviously medical professions professionals probably think it's not as safe or there are risks attached to motherhood in later life
36:02Dame Denise Lewis:but when you're fit when you're Denise Lewis it's not as if you're you know you're going to have well you could have placental insufficiency or something you can't just guarantee it's all going
36:12Rachel Johnson:to work like clockwork but it did totally and it did and I feel very very fortunate that Troy was healthy lovely baby I coped with the pregnancy really well and giving birth um and he has been an absolute godsend it's been the best journey with him congratulations I want to talk about
36:34Dame Denise Lewis:what you're doing now because i know you're doing where i met you know the lingerie stuff coco de may you lucky girl um who doesn't love you know lovely underwear i mean i'm a marks and spencer pack girl myself i was as well but i know and now sorry i mean today i no no no coco's for
36:56Rachel Johnson:special occasions no no that's the point you know i i absolutely loved that shoot and in my head i have probably again the things that are passed down to you from your your your mother you know your underwear is supposed to be practical yeah you know do you remember you used to have to wear
37:18Dame Denise Lewis:clean tidy underpants in case you're knocked over and put in an ambulance why do we why were we always told that about underwear i'm so glad did you did you get that
37:29Rachel Johnson:i i i couldn't believe my mom used to drill this into me you wear your your old pants before when you go to your bed but make sure every time you go out you've got fresh clean tidy underwear just
37:41Dame Denise Lewis:in case you get run over and this is like the last thing that you're going to be caring but
37:47Rachel Johnson:You know, it's in the brain. Those seeds, once they're planted, they become...
37:50Dame Denise Lewis:I think about it. I think about it too. So you've done a lingerie shoot. Have you done modelling before?
37:57Rachel Johnson:I wouldn't say I've done modelling, but I've been behind and, you know, in front of the camera. Sorry, not behind, in front of the camera on many occasions for sports brands. I did a calendar back in 1996 in the lead up to the Atlanta games. going back to the lingerie I hadn't done anything like that for many many years I found it extremely liberating, empowering and it gave me a renewed sense of just the fabulousness of wearing gorgeous underwear and you know in the 90s you know women wearing lingerie in newspapers was a real thing
38:40Dame Denise Lewis:I remember that, hello boys
38:42Rachel Johnson:Yes, for the boys. Yes. But reframing it with the Coco de Mer shoot was almost like you can be fabulous for yourself. You can empower yourself. You can feel amazing just wearing gorgeous underwear. Lingerie. Don't even call it underwear.
39:01Dame Denise Lewis:Lingerie. Lingerie. Lingerie. Should we move on to your most difficult times? Or you can actually change it up to time you've had to be most difficult. But you can choose.
39:14Rachel Johnson:I actually you know because when I was looking reading and listening to the amazing women you've had on this show and I'm thinking difficult women I love that title I really do but it's really it's women who are steadfast in their opinions and what they do I had a funny story which I'm kind of thinking whether I should share this or it might get me in trouble oh go on
39:41Rachel Johnson:um i'm quite uh principled when i'm on the road i'm very courteous i let people in and out and do all the things you're supposed to do i mean i had this moment when i was going past um i think it was harrods and there was an obstruction on one side this might get edited by the way and um so you're in knightsbridge going past harrods yes and i had let a couple of vehicles go through but I actually had right of way and so I proceeded down the road and this person then came literally bombing down the road and we got to like a head to head so it was like a stand off and neither of us would yield and I actually just turned my engine off and said this is not right you could see that I was proceeding but you've wanted to just be that person that gets ahead and now you've caused this congestion
40:43Dame Denise Lewis:obviously of course it was i'm thinking it was in beach and place do you know it well yes was it beach and place of course it was i mean that's because you have to it goes down to a
40:55Rachel Johnson:single leg that's right and so you therefore you have to be courteous and this individual or decided not to be. And so I was just like, well, I am not in a rush today. And so I turned my engine off. I reclined my seat and caused an absolute conundrum on that street. I love it. And who won? I did. I did. I absolutely did, she said, honestly, because the police ended up coming. and did you have how could they determine you had right away um you could see by the configuration of the okay brilliant so then what happened so please can tap my door and i'm like my window and i said please you really have to talk to this individual i said you know explain the situation and what has happened and i said i'm just hacked off that he thinks he can just bully me on the road like that and please have a word and said policeman went off encroached everyone to just start reversing down the street told this guy to pull in i turned my engine off and kept my head straight and drove past him feeling very smug and victorious no not even not a side glance um would i do it again i don't know but at the moment i just felt so sad i was making a point you cannot behave like that on the road.
42:27Dame Denise Lewis:It's brilliant. Denise, Dame Denise Lewis. I lose my damehood now. Even though you're not wearing the saucy undercrackers, I always find them terribly itchy. Thank you so much for being this week's Difficult Woman. What fun. You are fun.
43:00Dame Denise Lewis:so jealous of her washboard stomach i can't tell you i'm going to be devouring that flat tummy book thank you for listening to another episode of my difficult women podcast just remember to subscribe wherever you get your downloads or whatever so the latest episode is ready to go every friday afternoon bye
43:28We'll be right back.
From the publisher
This week’s difficult woman is the athlete, Dame Denise Lewis. She won gold in the Heptathlon in the 2000 Olympics and has continued to light up our screens with her punditry ever since. Denise is now the president of UK Athletics and is fighting for people not to experience the injustices that she did. Rachel and Denise discuss her tumultuous journey through motherhood and how she carved out a career after the gold.