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Podcast Episode Notes: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women - Episode 197: Penny Mordaunt
Podcast Overview
- Title: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women
- Description: The podcast features conversations with women who have had to be "difficult" to succeed in their fields, celebrating those who take this label as a compliment.
- Host: Rachel Johnson
- Guest: Penny Mordaunt, former Conservative minister for Women and Equalities
Episode Highlights Introduction to Penny Mordaunt
- Known for her role at the King Charles III coronation, where she held the sword of state.
- Mordaunt's unconventional journey in politics, upbringing in Portsmouth, and personal background.
- Early life challenges, including the loss of her parents and caring for her ill brother.
Childhood and Early Influences
- Mordaunt describes her childhood as loving but challenging due to family illness.
- Emphasis on responsibility from a young age shaped her character.
- Connection to Portsmouth and military heritage; the impact of growing up near the sea and in a naval town.
Entry into Politics
- Inspiration to enter politics after witnessing the situation in Romanian orphanages post-revolution.
- Initial political engagement through Conservative Youth Wing and press officer roles.
- Reflection on losing the 2003 election for Portsmouth North but continuing her political career.
Parliamentary Career
- Overview of her work as an MP and minister, with a focus on her time at the Ministry of Defence.
- Significant achievements include advocating for women's rights in the armed forces and securing investment for Portsmouth.
- Discussed the impact of political events, including the D-Day commemorations and how they affected her constituency.
Leadership Campaigns and Challenges
- Mordaunt shares her experiences in the 2022 leadership campaign.
- Discussed her philosophical approach to political changes and responsibilities.
- Reflections on the challenges faced as a woman in politics, including dealing with misogyny and the importance of representation.
Themes from Her Book
*Pomp and Circumstance*
- Emphasis on the importance of traditions and national identity amid rapid changes in society.
- Discussion on the complexities of immigration and its effects on national sentiment.
- Advocacy for a return to traditional values and community ties to address current societal challenges.
Personal and Political Resilience
- Mordaunt recounts difficult moments, including threats and personal challenges.
- Encouragement for others to pursue public service despite adversities, highlighting the fulfillment it can bring.
Key Concepts and Arguments
- Difficult Women: The notion that women who are deemed "difficult" often pave the way for significant change and are often undervalued in society.
- Role of Tradition: Mordaunt argues that preserving traditions can unite communities and provide a sense of security amid societal changes.
- Public Service: The importance of engaging in politics and public roles, emphasizing that personal challenges should not deter potential candidates.
- Representation: Mordaunt highlights the need for more women in politics and leadership roles, advocating for inclusion based on capability rather than gender.
Conclusion
- Penny Mordaunt's journey reflects resilience and the complexities of navigating British politics as a woman. The episode emphasizes the significance of being "difficult" in pursuit of one's goals and the critical role of tradition and community in addressing contemporary issues.
Call to Action
- Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to the podcast for more insightful discussions and to engage with themes of empowerment and resilience in women's narratives.
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This document summarizes the podcast episode and highlights key discussions, providing a structured overview of the topics covered while drawing attention to important concepts and arguments presented by Rachel Johnson and Penny Mordaunt.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Rachel Johnson:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:11Penny Mordaunt:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.
0:24Penny Mordaunt:You'll all remember Penny Mordaunt. She held up the sword of state during the king's coronation, but she's had a long and very distinguished career at the top of British politics. And in fact, as she tells me, she hopes to return. Welcome to Difficult Women.
1:03Penny Mordaunt:If you had to summon up the image of a modern-day Baudisseur, many people, I suggest, would think of Penny Mordaunt holding the sword of state during the king's coronation. A nation, it's fair to say, swooned over the sight of the former defence secretary and Tory politician in her immaculate costume. In fact, a demi-couture embroidered gown that historic day. But there is much more to Penny Mordaunt than that. Her former seat, Portsmouth, from where she joins me now, and the Navy and service and duty runs through her like the proverbial stick of rock, a completely ungrammatical expression. Indeed, as I read in your new book, Penny, your nickname is Pompey Pen.
1:48Penny Mordaunt:Also, your new book is called Pomp and Circumstance, a sort of pun that I've only just tumbled to. Can we start, Dame Penny, with your difficult, but I'm sure very loving childhood as one of the three children of John and Jennifer Mordaunt?
2:06Rachel Johnson:Yes, so I did have, in some respects, a wonderful childhood. My parents loved us very much and did everything they could for us. Wonderful memories of growing up near the sea. They used to take us down to the beach before we'd woken up and we'd wake up on the beach and have breakfast on the beach. So it was just a wonderful, wonderful childhood. But in my teenage years, it was very difficult. Both my parents were ill. So from the age of 13, I was a carer and I lost my mum when she was only 46 and I was 15. and my father remained ill for a little while after that. So quite a difficult childhood, not a lot of money in the household and running a household without white goods and things like that is pretty hard work.
3:04Rachel Johnson:So yeah, I had a lot of responsibility at a young age, but I also had parents that did the best for us and did what they could for us. So, you know, I think that's the most important thing. And I mean, I very sadly meet children in my former constituency who didn't have that, didn't have that protection and security and love. And so I'm just very grateful for everything we did have.
3:37Penny Mordaunt:you sound very sort of um you know stiff upper lip in that i mean a lot of sort of things a psychotherapist might unpack which is when we think of a child carer we imagine them caring for a parent but as i understand it you had you cared for one of your younger siblings as well and then of course the bereavement in a very formative period of your life your teenage years How do you think that formed you as a person, those experiences?
4:09Rachel Johnson:I think that, and I write about this in the book, you get a lot of inspiration from what's around you. And Portsmouth is the kind of place that just gets on with it. If people have, you know, having a bad time of it, they crack on and they think of others. And then all of a sudden what's on their plate doesn't seem so bad. So, I mean, that's just my attitude, really. You just get on with it. And I think I saw that I had responsibilities. I think I was quite a capable child. I managed to juggle a lot of things. My twin brother didn't manage to stay in education. I managed to do that and was able to kind of find work that I could do around going to college and still earning a decent amount of money.
5:01Rachel Johnson:and my brother eventually went back into education. So I was just glad I was able to hold it together. But of course, you know, it is tough, but it gives you skills. And I think if you've been through things in your life at a young age, it does set you up for being able to cope with things later on in life.
5:24Penny Mordaunt:Just say something about the Navy and what living in Portsmouth, in a port from a military background. And of course, then you entered the Navy yourself and you were an honorary colonel, I think, at some point. I mean, tell me how that has also defined you.
5:42Rachel Johnson:Well, I mean, Portsmouth, growing up in Portsmouth...
5:45Penny Mordaunt:Sorry, can I just tell everybody that you're sitting in a beautiful high-ceilinged room in your Portsmouth house and there's a painting of the sea crashing against the shore. What is the painting? It's the Navy Memorial on Portsmouth Seafront
6:06Rachel Johnson:and actually it was sent to me by an amazing artist called Sarah Evans who just liked what I was doing and she sent me, she has an amazing project where she's painted all over the country. She just paints scenes from all over Britain and she sent me that one. Wonderful, wonderful woman. Amazing. Go and look at her online. I will.
6:28Penny Mordaunt:Sorry to interrupt. I just thought it was so telling about the person you are.
6:35Rachel Johnson:Yes. Well, I think actually anyone that has been brought up near the sea, you feel a connection to it. You know, life doesn't seem right unless you've got seagulls waking you up in the morning. So I do very much feel connected to the sea. And I mean, when I was nine, the Falklands War was going on. we're very active naval base here I could recognize you know the difference between a Merlin and a wasp helicopter before I could kind of speak and you do it's said of this city that they've no need of flags although there are quite a lot of flags up at the moment but they've no need of flags because they wear their patriotism in their lives so that sense of service and the images that I saw during the Falklands War of the whole city coming together to prepare for it, to get the ships ready, to wave them off.
7:31Rachel Johnson:Some of my classmates, dad's not coming back. It was a very, very powerful time to live through for the whole country, but I think particularly for where the bulk of the service personnel were coming from. So I've always felt a connection. And actually quite late on in life, I joined the Navy. I went in as a rating and then became an officer. I was a reservist for 10 years, a lot of which was actually when I was an MP, which was quite interesting experience. And then when it all got a bit difficult because I was a minister in the Department for Defence a couple of times, they eventually gave me a second commission.
8:12Rachel Johnson:So I became an honorary officer. and my six-year term. I know you interviewed the wonderful Kelly Holmes and she's been in the army and you do a six-year stint. And so I come to the end of that at the end of this year and I'll leave the fleet at the end of this year. But yes, so as an honorary captain for six years.
8:32Penny Mordaunt:I mean, extraordinary. You must be. I mean, it's a brilliant pub quiz question, which defence secretary served as a rating in the Navy. I mean, there is only you, Penny Mordaunt, I presume.
8:45Rachel Johnson:I think I do have a very unique thing in that during the time of the coronation, I was serving and so qualified for a coronation medal, which I have a military coronation medal. But I also have one in my civilian life as well because of the role I played at the coronation. So I think I'm probably the only person that's got two coronation medals. Well, congratulations.
9:12Penny Mordaunt:So we're going to skip through the sort of higher education. You read philosophy at Reading and your political kind of, I was going to say antennae or your political sense was activated, as I understand it, by your, you took yourself off to Romania and you saw all the children in the Romanian orphanages. Weirdly, I've just been to Romania myself. And it is one of the things that we still remember of that country. But that would have been under communism, I presume. And of course, there was the revolution. But so tell us how that affected you.
9:50Rachel Johnson:So at 18, my father was going to be OK. And he had remarried. And so my younger brother was going to be OK. So I thought, right, I'm going to try and get into university the following year. but what am I going to do in the meantime? And it was a year after the Romanian revolution. Oh, so it was post that. It was one year after. And of course, it had just been opened up and the world was seeing what had happened under the Ceausescu regime. Kids, enormous numbers of kids placed in hospitals and orphanages and left to die. And so I thought, well, I'll go and make myself useful. I'll go and do that.
10:37Rachel Johnson:So I just took myself off at 18, probably quite unwisely, to work in northern Romania. So very, very far out of the city in the rural countryside, which was pretty medieval. And I worked, I did a few stints over two years, really dealing with some quite dramatic situations, first place I worked at there were 60 children 30 of them were babies because many of them didn't survive to to grow up and there had been a campaign to actively cross-infect them with HIV to to kill them so we had enormous numbers of them were were HIV or had four blown aids and without medication and obviously low immune systems you know in a very bad way and the thing that really struck me was not just the kind of physical situation with people in, the thing that really got to me was how the village next door to this institution, the regime that they had been living under, they stopped seeing these children as human and even though they might know their parents and it was just a complete disconnect and I just saw how that regime, the ideology, but also the fear that came with it changed people's humanity in a quite dramatic way.
12:12Rachel Johnson:And I thought this is just such a powerful force here being used for evil. But I could see how it could be used to great good. And so that's what really started getting me involved in politics. And I think I was a conservative leaning person because of the responsibility I'd had as a child. That's how I kind of arrived as being conservative. Just very quickly, people may be wondering, why were there so many children or babies in
12:44Penny Mordaunt:orphanages in Romania? And I think we have to explain that there was basically communist regime starved the population. And unless you could feed yourself with your pig in your back garden, and not many people had a pig and you had enough land to grow a few vegetables and potatoes, you basically starved. I mean, is that the situation that obtained them? And also, if you had any kind of disability, any kind at all, you were considered to be subhuman.
13:17Rachel Johnson:I mean, the regime had this idea of what perfection needed to look like. So a lot of the children that were abandoned had disabilities of some kind. And you would also get very sad cases of the orphanage I was working at. There's a set of parents who clearly loved their child and they visited the child in the orphanage, but they just couldn't afford to look after them. And then there were other parents that had left their babies in the orphanage. But as soon as they became useful in terms of working, they reclaimed them. So it was just an absolute appalling situation of people losing sight of humanity in the wake of immense physical hardships, but also a kind of psychological doctrine and fear.
14:15Rachel Johnson:I mean, just horrific circumstances. But also, you can very quickly write a situation like that. And I remember going back a year later and encountering, you know, wonderful changes and changes to the children's lives as well.
14:50Penny Mordaunt:So you became active in the Tory party, the Conservative Youth Wing. You worked as a press officer for William Hague when William Hague was leader. You did Splash, a reality TV show, which brought you another legion of admirers. Then you were selected in 2003 to contest Portsmouth North. But you lost to the Labour candidate. You've said in your book a very interesting line that Portsmouth is always the colour of government. So let's talk about your career as an MP and representing Portsmouth and how you lost only very narrowly last year. But, you know, you must have felt, you know, it was Labour's turn.
15:35Penny Mordaunt:So just you as an MP. I didn't feel that.
15:39Rachel Johnson:I didn't feel that it was Labour's turn. And so I lost by 700 votes. And if I had won, it would have been the first time that Portsmouth would have not been the colour of government. And at the start of the campaign, I was five percent ahead, which would have given me about a 3000 majority.
15:54Penny Mordaunt:Oh, yes. I know what you're going to say now, because I've read this in your book, something very bad. Rishi left the D-Day commemorations.
16:00Rachel Johnson:And I'm sure anyone listening to this, no matter where they are in the country, will remember that and think, yeah, that was, you know, not our finest hour. certainly. But I cannot tell you what that was like in Portsmouth, which was the crucible for that campaign. I mean, just unbelievable. So I just knew that it had gone then. But I think it was possible, had we had a better campaign, that I could have retained the seat.
16:32Penny Mordaunt:Shall we just remind everybody what happened? It was probably the last time the veterans We're going to meet with the leaders of the European nations that had fought in the Second World War on the beaches of Normandy. And over to you, Penny Mordaunt.
16:51Rachel Johnson:And there were there were sort of two ceremonies. There was a there was a kind of mourning ceremony and then there was an afternoon ceremony with the with the kind of world leaders there. and our prime minister decided that he was going to go to the former and not the latter and David Cameron, his foreign secretary, would sort of sit in for him. I think that his aides thought that because he'd hung out with veterans, that was enough. I think what they didn't appreciate, even after the event, was that this wasn't a kind of day trip for an individual. he was there representing all of us. And if he wasn't there, we weren't.
17:38Rachel Johnson:And I think that's what people found most galling, as well as the sort of the kind of disrespect. So it was just a very, you know, very poor judgment. And I remember I was doing the television debates straight afterwards. And there was a lot of pressure on me to say, you know, well, he did, he was with veterans, it wasn't necessary. And I said, you know, stop it. I'm not going to say that. If you want me to land any points on tax later on, don't ask me to kind of bullshit people in the first opening, you know, statements of this, because it was bound to be the first question they asked in the debates.
18:21Rachel Johnson:And I just said, you know, it was absolutely wrong. And I'm so sorry for it because that's all you can say it was and also then it came out that he was coming
18:30Penny Mordaunt:back to the uk to do an interview with itv with paul brand and i just thought how i think the tone deafness of it was very symbolic of a lot of things that we don't need to go to go into but i think that i can see why the country was up in arms about it yes we can all see it because they must have thought this is a prime minister you know he went to winchester um went to oxford you know absolutely highly educated who just doesn't get it yes and you i mean you always
19:06Rachel Johnson:wonder who's met you know did he make this decision was it did what was his awareness like about what he was supposed to be doing i don't know yeah but i just know that um collectively we let people down really badly.
19:21Penny Mordaunt:So do you, I mean, this is a very tabloid question, but do you blame Rishi for you losing your seat?
19:29Rachel Johnson:No, because look, if we had been further ahead in the polls, maybe I could have survived something like that. And politics is a team sport.
Read the full transcript
19:41Penny Mordaunt:When your team captain is not at the crease during the opening bowling.
19:47Rachel Johnson:No, there's a big long list of things that I wish I could have had an impact on during those last few years that I think would have served us better. But we are where we are. And as I said on the night when I lost my seat, you know, democracy is never wrong. and we just have to move on from it. But I had a great 14 years of, and we got a lot done. When I came in in 2010, Portsmouth was on the top 10 crap towns of the UK. 2022, it was voted second best place to live. So we've transformed the city. We got a billion pounds of investment in. We saved the football club. We rebuilt schools. We did a lot.
20:35Penny Mordaunt:And the Lido. Don't forget the Lido. I know, absolutely.
20:38Rachel Johnson:That's why you did Splash, of course. That's right. So, yes.
20:42Penny Mordaunt:Penny, let's race through. Can we race through the highlights and lowlights of your ministerial career? I mean, you're a familiar face. You've served in many capacities, particularly, I think, for the armed forces and defence. So just on your ministerial career.
21:04Rachel Johnson:So I'm very fortunate to have done an enormous number of ministerial roles and quite varied. And each ministry is so different, but you can really get some things done. So I obviously did a kind of double stint at Defence, which is an amazing department and a privilege to be there. did a lot to open up other roles for women and make sure that women who were serving were getting what they needed in terms of body armor, which was designed for them and physical training support that was designed for them and bespoke to them, as well as Min AF oversee one of the most busy kinetic times for us with Op Shader and Iraq and Syria.
21:55Rachel Johnson:and then I had 85 days as defence secretary and I knew what I wanted to get done so I managed to get most of it done during that time but I loved work and pensions.
22:04Penny Mordaunt:Yeah, can we just pause for a moment? You were the first female Secretary of State for Defence I think and yet you haven't made a song and dance about that fact at all. To you it was another job to be done rather than, you know, something to be rammed down people's throats at every opportunity. I think you know what I'm alluding to. I know. I mean, I think that you inspire other women and you encourage other women
22:39Rachel Johnson:by, I think, occupying particular roles and doing a job well. and if you constantly just talk about, you know, that you're a woman doing the job, it never works out well. I just think that's not the way to do it. And actually, if you look at, I mean, some of our greatest military leaders, I always say this when I do Trafalgar night speeches, when you think of Nelson, you think of this great naval leader, but he was also disabled, really profoundly disabled, and had all sorts of other issues going on. And we never talk about his weaknesses or his personal failings. And we don't think about that because of what he did.
23:27Rachel Johnson:And so I just think that you can draw all kinds of conclusions from, you know, what makes a great leader. and if you're an unusual person in that role and you want to encourage others, you know, just do a good job.
23:44Penny Mordaunt:And when you were doing jobs that, you know, 100 years ago would never have been done by a woman, whether it's to do with veterans, the armed forces, international development and all the roles that you've occupied at the highest level in British public life. I mean, I've just got to ask you, Did you ever suffer from misogyny and mansplaining?
24:08Rachel Johnson:Look, I don't think there is a woman alive that hasn't, you know, encountered attitudes or, you know, been ignored or, you know, had issues like that. Of course, you have issues like that. but actually what's important is to know how to deal with them and to um i mean i'll tell you what i i do rachel because i i do this a lot when i go and i talk um to organizations where it's really important that they're they're involving women to to be operationally effective and i do this exercise and i get a chap to stand up and empty his pockets and he'll have a set of keys a phone and his wallet. And then I get the women to get their handbags out.
25:01Rachel Johnson:And I get them to tell the chaps what they've got in their handbags. I did this at a RENZ event a little while ago, and items included a set of screwdrivers, a can of WD-40. One lady had a swimsuit. She was going back to the Isle of Wight. So God knows why she had a swimsuit in there. But it's remarkable. And the average number of items in a woman's handbag is 75. And I say to the chaps, why do you think they've got all that stuff in there? And they look at me blankly. And I say, because they have the imagination to think what could go wrong. They have the imagination to think what their spouses need during the day, what their kids or their grandkids are going to need, what they might be doing later that evening, and they need a set of different earrings or whatever.
25:49Rachel Johnson:But, you know, they have thought through every flaming thing that is going to happen and could happen. So don't you think they're ideal people to include in your discussions around emergency planning? Or, you know, and it just, I mean, it's wonderful kind of to see the kind of penny drop with people. So it is really important that we're, you know, that I'm generalizing. And obviously, fellas have great attributions as well. But it's so important that we recognize these things. We have some amazing superpowers. I agree. We know this. You look at performance of companies who have women on their boards.
26:31Rachel Johnson:You look at peace treaties, how long they last if women have helped negotiate them. It's really important that we're included. And there's obviously people are dismissing, some people are dismissing this as important, but it is important.
26:44Penny Mordaunt:So in May of 2019, a year of great convulsion in British politics, when we saw a change of prime minister, you were appointed by Theresa May to be defence secretary. He came into office. My brother Boris Johnson came into office a couple of months later and he replaced you with, was it Ben Wallace? Yes. How did you feel about that?
27:14Rachel Johnson:So I was quite philosophical about it because I didn't support him to be prime minister. I was supporting Jeremy Hunt. And you can't really expect a cabinet job under those sectors. So, I knew that it was likely that I would have 85 days in office. So, I didn't hang around. I gave the lowest paid members of our armed forces a massive pay rise because they had been earning less than the living wage, and I thought it was wrong. So, I gave them all a big pay rise and got a few other things over the line. And I knew that that was the most likely outcome from that. And I have a lot of respect for Ben.
28:04Rachel Johnson:I mean if you know I think he he was a really good choice so and I hope if you you know spoke to him he would say that he felt supported and I was helpful in terms of him taking up that that job so no I I've I felt that you know I'd done what I thought was right and that was going to
28:29Penny Mordaunt:be one of the consequences doing that if i might may say so that's an incredibly mature answer that you know proves why you're so respected i mean i hope that doesn't sound too crawly but it's it's it's true and i mean it
29:00Penny Mordaunt:To my mind, it would have been sort of cleverer and less political, maybe, if you had been kept on in your position as Defence Secretary, because you were also a Brexiteer as well as being, you know, a rare woman in cabinet. And I wonder, you know, it seems to me that prime ministers don't always have the best advisors. But anyway, moving on, you fought a leadership campaign in 2022. You made it to the final three before losing out to Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. I mean, I wonder if that race was rerun today. I think you would probably have stormed it or storm it.
29:45Rachel Johnson:Yes, I mean, there's been much written about what happened and what might have been. But there's no point in looking back on these things. And I think in both contests, because obviously, there was a mini contest that followed the fall of the trust administration. And I think in both both times I was right to run. I felt that I could have offered a good program, but that didn't kind of blow the doors off, as Liz's did. And I felt that I could campaign. I was a campaigner. I've fought a marginal and made it a conservative seat. And I thought that that's what was required, that we needed to kind of tell a narrative really and maximize the upsides of leaving the EU.
30:50Rachel Johnson:So, I think I was right to do that. And I think that even if I had lost out to Rishi, which I did in the second contest, had Rishi just had a coronation, it would have been really hard for our troops. And so what I felt was important is I was running to win. But I also knew that if I didn't win, I had to demonstrate to the party that the appetite wasn't there from MPs, that we, they had the option to have a full, it would have been a short contest, but they had the option to do that. And I just thought that would be the most helpful thing to do. So yeah, no regrets. but yeah I'm sure people will be thinking about all sorts of things that went on and what could have been well we've talked about losing losing Penny we've we've talked about
31:50Penny Mordaunt:you losing your seat so narrowly in 2024 and D-Day but let's go back a year to the coronation the 6th of May 2023 just before the the general elect the last general election you were the first woman to have ever presented the jewel jeweled sword of offering to a british monarch at king charles's coronation on the 6th of may 2023 i wondered whether you would like to read from your book pomp and circumstance as a special bonus to difficult women uh listeners and i think the passage you should read is which started it starts may 2023 changed my life in ways i didn't expect oh i've got to find that i think it's very early on i think you open the book with you carrying the sword of state and actually is it true that you had some help in the way it was you were carrying it it was kind of there was a truss of some sort no pun intended
32:46Rachel Johnson:so um i was i had a kind of uh holder for the the end of the the sword but i could only use that when I was standing still. And when you're walking with it, it has to be out and it has to be held at right angles from the body. So it was the Sunday after my stomach muscles were absolutely killing me. I recommend it, you know. Have you found the place?
33:11Penny Mordaunt:I think it's the opening bit of the book.
33:14Rachel Johnson:Ah, yes, of course. Yes. So it's in the preface.
33:17Penny Mordaunt:Okay, so quickly read through until we get to, I knew it really mattered to so many. Great.
33:27Rachel Johnson:So being part of the coronation of King Charles III changed my life in ways I didn't expect. My first inkling of this was just after the ceremony. I got changed. I packed my kit into my car and drove from Westminster back to Portsmouth. Until that moment, I'd simply been focusing on doing my job. I was relieved that all had gone well and I hadn't let anyone down. I hadn't tripped up. I hadn't dropped the sword of state. I'd resisted looking over my shoulder at the head of the procession. And this was mainly because we trained and rehearsed over and over again with military precision. In the following weeks, I was sent hundreds of pictures of me carrying the sword of state, which had been drawn by children, together with their hopes for their own futures and good wishes for their new king and their country.
34:17Rachel Johnson:Others wrote about their pride. I received more letters about the coronation than I did votes at any election. I realised that the spectacle was a manifestation of all they held in their hearts about our country. We'd been through so much with Covid and the death of Her Majesty. I knew it really mattered to so many.
34:37Penny Mordaunt:Thank you, Penny. Let's talk a bit about the book and the themes before we get to or difficult time. It's reading between the lines of a lot of it. There are some real concerns about the direction this country is taking, and which is why you wanted to write a book about Pearly Kings and the monarchy and Morris dancing. And at a time when you feel the world has gone mad, and many of our traditions are under threat. So why don't you just tell listeners some of the things that you think are worth preserving and some of the threats that we need to contend with?
35:15Rachel Johnson:So I think that the pace of change that we're facing at the moment is frightening to people. And the overwhelming force in politics that's driving people's thinking is that they see all this change around them, all these new threats, and they don't see anyone in number 10 or in parliament that's able to do anything about the things that matter to them. It doesn't seem to matter who's in, what levers they pull, now it happens. And so very concerning to people. And I, through my experiences of being the late Queen's last and the King's first Lord President, I saw firsthand how at a moment of immense political turmoil and uncertainty, changing monarch how these ceremonies hold us together they kind of re-clothed us in our rightful minds they reminded us who we were they reminded us what we'd been through and what and how we could face the future and they kind of brought us together in a most remarkable way so I started looking into this and I discovered that organizations which had traditions public services in particular that have traditions perform much better than others.
36:30Rachel Johnson:And I noticed that communities, particularly post-COVID, were reviving traditions and that people who had done the kind of transformational politics that the country needs right now, like Margaret Thatcher, their radical programs had been rooted in the familiar, the traditional faith, things that people understood. They were able to create that narrative and make quite radical change, not frightening for people. And so that's why I think these things are our superpower and why they are worth preserving. I mean, we don't have to worry about preserving them because the public are doing this without having to have a memo from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport telling them to do so.
37:15Rachel Johnson:They feel the need to. But I think that they are really helpful during times when there's a lack of self-confidence in ourselves as a nation and there are potentially very divisive times ahead. So I do think they're really important. And I hope that when people read the book, they'll be reminded about what an incredible nation we are and that our values are pretty special.
37:45Penny Mordaunt:And in the book, and I don't think we've got time to go into it now but I do urge people to read you talk about and obviously I'm summarising dramatically the threat to tradition and the English British way of life of mass immigration at a time when the wealth creators are actually there's a mass exodus of them how the tax base is a terrifying pyramid now and how this is undermining people's sense that the future is safe and secure in this country. So do you just want to say something about that? We've seen the migration figures just this week, which are being hailed as a rapid fall in net immigration, but that is all down to a lot of people leaving the country, particularly the under 35s.
38:40Yes, I mean, there is a narrative we have to combat here,
38:45Rachel Johnson:because people know we are facing real challenges, huge technology challenges. Our military is saying we'll be in a conflict situation in four years. The majority of Europeans think that we won't just be at war. We'll be in a world war in the next five to 10 years. So people are very frightened. They see politicians not being able to have an impact. They see the pace of change and the example of the massive increase in net migration numbers, people coming in. And just the huge tick up that there's been in the last few years is an example of that. We've always had migration into this country over thousands of years, but it is now enormous numbers.
39:34Rachel Johnson:And so that is concerning to people. And we also have not, I mean, the public understand this really well. The public know we've got to concentrate on certain things. We've got to get the City of London back on its feet again. It's in terrible decline. We've got to halve the cost of energy. And they see all these big things that government needs to do and sort out and get the NHS to do what it needs to do. But they don't see anyone doing those things. And so that's what's so frightening for people. And it's not just enough to kind of work out what needs to be done. In Britain, we know that you've got to approach it in a particular way to be successful.
40:13Rachel Johnson:And so we argue in the book that these traditions and an understanding that our rule book has been stress tested, as this nation has through a thousand years. We're so different to what's happening in America right now, which hasn't been through any of that. So you can't do what America is doing over here because it won't work. People won't stand for it. you've got to take people with you and you do that by having a radical transformational program that is rooted in things that bring people together and they understand so do you mean
40:46Penny Mordaunt:sorry just interrupt just to clarify so Trump saying after the the attempted murder of two National Guardsmen he's going to stop all third world immigration that's today are you saying that the British way is not to do that not to be like Trumpy deportations ice but you have to take the whole country with you as you develop maybe a better border control?
41:10Rachel Johnson:So I think all credit to Trump. He has shown that you can get elected and deliver on what you said. So I think we should be doing that in this country. We should be looking at not things which are just going to create headlines and, you know, kick the can down the road. We should be doing radical things here, but we have to do it in a way which makes reference to what we've always done as a nation. And so, I think that that's what the country needs to see. And we also have to transform Whitehall from being something which responds at a snail-like pace, and then will produce a white paper on something, and maybe in four years' time, something will happen to a culture that creates excellence through the habits it has.
42:02Rachel Johnson:It moves at the speed that business and science move at. That's what we've got to do. And that's radical stuff and it's scary stuff. But if you root it, as Margaret Thatcher did, in what people understand and our nation's story, people will love it and they'll embrace it and they'll get behind it.
42:20Penny Mordaunt:Now, Penny, the bit you've been looking forward to most, what has been your most difficult time or when have you had to be most difficult? But I prefer the former.
42:32Rachel Johnson:So. I'll quickly give you two answers to that. So I believe in being difficult. I would encourage women to be difficult, to get what they need done. And I've always tried to do that. And Theresa May once dispatched me to get Houdaida port in Yemen opened up. And I knew that if I just went to Saudi Arabia and said to the generals there, you're blockading a port, could you please open it? They'd pat me on the head and tell me, no, dear lady, we're not. So I went to Djibouti with a couple of Marines. We went to the docks. I got the shipping records and I took them with me to Riyadh. And when the generals told me to jog on, I plonked the shipping records in front and took them through the fuel ships they were holding or their generals were holding the food ships and the fact that the UN couldn't get in.
43:27Rachel Johnson:And within hours, they opened the port. So being difficult gets the job done, I find. There have been difficult moments in my political career. I've had over the last couple of years, you know, particularly bad stalking case. I've had 700 threats, including very serious death threats and so forth in my career. This one was by far the worst to deal with. And I've just been through a trial. But I think what it's very important to say is that I want to go back to Parliament. If I don't get back, it won't be through one of trying. And anyone out there that feels that they'd love to do that kind of job as a councillor or an MP or some other kind of public role.
44:11Rachel Johnson:but is put off by these stories. I have to say to you, I could tell you a thousand happier ones and you should do it if you feel that you want to. The chances are you'd be good at it and you should do it. It's not putting me off and it shouldn't put you off either.
44:29Penny Mordaunt:I'd love to see you back in the comments, Penny Morden. I'd love to see, and I don't mind saying this out loud, I'd love to see a Tory government back too. I think Kemi did a brilliant job this week replying to the budget. And I don't think we should count out the most successful party in modern political history yet. What do you think?
44:50Rachel Johnson:I think that's right. And I think Kemi's been right to do the job properly, bluntly, to actually think, not just let's have a policy idea that will solve this problem, but work out actually how you're going to do it. So on leaving the ECHR, she'd thought about how she was going to engage with Northern Ireland politicians on some of the trickier issues around that. So she's doing the hard yards. And the public are no fools. They are going to be able to differentiate, I think, between people who understand what is required and people that care only enough about an issue to wring their hands about it.
45:34Penny Mordaunt:Penny Mordaunt, thank you so much for being this week's Difficult Woman. It's been an absolute joy to have you on.
45:42Rachel Johnson:Thank you very much. Thank you.
45:56Penny Mordaunt:Thank you so much for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. just remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so the next episode is always ready to go every friday afternoon bye
46:31You
From the publisher
This week’s difficult woman is Penny Mordaunt, former Conservative minister for Women and Equalities. You may know her for holding the sword at the King Charles’ coronation or running against Liz Truss in the Conservative leadership race. There is much more to Penny than this however. She does not fit the posh Oxbridge stereotype that surrounds the Conservative party. Growing up in Portsmouth, she lost her parents at a young age and cared for her brother whilst he was ill. Her journey into politics is unconventional and frankly fascinating.