198. Holly Tucker

0:01Holly Tucker:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:11Holly Tucker:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.

0:21Holly Tucker:If you've ever thought that you should be your own boss, you could start your own business and you could be a mumpreneur, hate that word, or any kind of entrepreneur, well, you can. Have a listen to my conversation with Holly Tucker, MBE, the founder of rotonhighstreet.com and also Holly & Co. and also a daytime television star. Welcome to Difficult Women.

1:04Holly Tucker:We are making a special focus in the Difficult Women series of brilliant British businesswomen and entrepreneurs. And we've had Thomasina Myers, who founded Oaxaca. We've had Emma Willis, the shirt maker. And today's guest is Holly Tucker, MBE. She founded NotOnTheHighStreet.com. I think I got that right, but you'll correct me if I'm wrong. You've been made MBE, as I said. You're a telly presenter with a new TV series. You're also a mother and probably main breadwinner. And so you're quite used to doing it all, which is why you've joined me in the studio after you've hot-footed it from ITV. um reading into you a bit the first thing that struck me is you were just the most extraordinary um dynamic and single-minded child so can you just start by telling us how you know you've started a fantastically successful business which has branched out into various other different things as well as telly presenting but can you describe what you were like as a little girl

2:11Rachel Johnson:yes I mean I was nicknamed Holly Hurricane when I reflect on this I do feel very much for my mum because I mean it's all fine saying it now isn't it but I mean having someone called Holly Hurricane as a little one it just sounds so exhausting already but I was I was just a girl in a hurry I mean I just was in a hurry always I was always looking I remember um sort of not really wanting pocket money more wanting a job you know so could mum could you give me a job and you could pay me and so that was sort of my way and I think I was like six or seven when that started and then we'd go away on holiday and I would try and start up like a beauty business when I was like 10 doing nails and then we'd go away and then I would not just have an ice cream at the ice cream shack I would go and get a job behind the ice cream shack maybe you know could I have two hours work and you could just pay me an ice cream.

3:11Rachel Johnson:So I think I just had this hunger to be in it and doing it and sort of being grown up, so to speak. And that just continued because my first job that I actually got, my real life job was at 18. And I started my world of work in advertising, an agency called Publicis on Baker Street. And I was 18 years old when I I started and I haven't stopped since.

3:37Holly Tucker:What I take away from that is an absolute determination to make your own money as well as make your own luck and kind of a tremendous work ethic. So how were you parented to bring that out or was it just completely indigenous in you?

3:56Rachel Johnson:Yeah, we've tried to work this out. um it's my parents had great worker ethic um and my grandmother from my mother's side was really really creative and unfortunately she passed when I was four but there were just all these stories you know so she would you know this is in 1940s 50s she would make her own Christmas tree every year she would um she went out on um over to America and she made all her outfits to take the trip that would take two weeks you know she would she used to wear um white shirts my grandfather's white shirts all tied up with his jeans on you know this is in the 1940s so there was this sort of romanticizing about my grandmother but then with this work ethic from my parents and I don't know what it is but it has just led to uh wanting to work hard um and and just not conform but not in a naughty way not in a mischievous way but not conform to how it has always been done I think I've been brave enough for some reason to tackle issues yeah tackle issues and do things that other people haven't done do you think that business is in your blood

5:14Holly Tucker:and it's not in a lot of other women's blood or do you think that it's just that cultural conditioning means that women kind of don't focus on maybe that latent ability within themselves and they kind of like you know for example I'm useless at pensions and admin and all those things and money I'm not proud of it at all I know how stupid that sounds but do you think that just the way we bring up girls is that to not be as entrepreneurial as you I mean I read that you were selling travel tickets or charging your mum's friends for terrible manicures and you set up a tuck shop at school you know you just you just had the gene I mean what I'm saying is is it nature or

5:58Rachel Johnson:nurture oh I've you know I've been doing this now for 20 years and how many women do I hear say that they're not good at the finances and somehow by the way we link that to sort of business you know that the money aspect of it means that you can't be a business person or, you know, I've been talking about, you know, you know, we used to say you're born an entrepreneur or not born an entrepreneur, you know, that sort of, I don't know. I think for whatever reason, somehow, yes, I have a lot of energy and I'm curious. But I think that actually it's about maybe having permission and the environment being right and finding your thing, finding your diamond.

6:47Rachel Johnson:And I don't necessarily think we're all lucky enough to find it or have the space to find it, so to speak. So I think I was just very lucky with creating, you know, Not on the High Street and now Holly and Co, which is my new business, that basically I, in that journey, I found my diamond. I found my passion in life. I found what's going to be somehow, I don't know what's going to be written in my tombstone, but I've sort of found what will be written there. And I think that is more important. And what will be written there?

7:21Holly Tucker:Sorry, you didn't say what will be written there? What will be on your tombstone? She helped people do what they love and love what they do. Love it. Well, that's the name of, what is it? Is it that's your book?

7:34Rachel Johnson:or what that's my book yeah I mean as a sort of book promotion there I just mean like basically that is sort of what I found to be my superpower and I've turned I've been able to make two very successful businesses out of it so maybe is that is that the the seed that we need to concentrate on rather than being an entrepreneur born an entrepreneur am I good with money am I not good

8:01Holly Tucker:OK, no, I totally see that. But I think a lot of people never know what they love. So they don't they can't do it. I know a lot of people who have been just stuck in middle management or in in public sector roles or in client facing roles or in in jobs or in carrying jobs or teaching jobs that they don't necessarily love. Teaching, I think, is different because I think it's a vocation, as is nursing, for example. But there are a lot of jobs that just don't have that feeling of this is what I love. I would do this if I wasn't being paid. So what interests me is the moment of transition when you were a sort of trainee at an advertising agency having just done A-levels.

8:48Holly Tucker:And then did you have a light bulb moment? Did you think this is a brilliant idea for a business? This is a gap in the market. And so kind of take a step by step through that transition.

9:00Rachel Johnson:I mean, I worked in advertising. I was brought up by very, very strong women within the workplace. I then moved into publishing and, again, was surrounded by very, very strong women. I went briefly into the dot-com bubble. And then I came out of that quite sort of crashing down. I got married and divorced incredibly young. I am a girl in a hurry, you see. So I had ill health. And then from that, I decided to sort of be creative. If I hadn't gone to advertising, I would have gone to do a degree in art. And so and creative design and technology. I was young engineer of the year. I had this sort of this creative side to me.

9:45Rachel Johnson:So I decided that I would make wreaths and was going to be a wreath entrepreneur. And that, you know, why are wreaths only for people dying? And I was going to make resurgence in wreaths. And I did that for a while with my hands. I do believe I now know, obviously, that creativity is such a tonic for us mental health. But we weren't talking about this 25 years ago. And I did that. And I said to myself, right, I'm going to sell these wreaths at the local fair and then realize there wasn't a local fair. And I said, well, let's create the local fair. I'll create the fair and then I can sell the wreaths on the trestle table.

10:20Rachel Johnson:so then I created the fairs and then when that fair had happened and it was really successful I was like god I can't bear wreaths right I'm not a wreath entrepreneur I'm going to create events that's what I'm going to do so I created events and then as I created these events I realized how archaic it was that we were selling basically products that should have been in liberty and you know in the high street but we were selling them in town hall roofs that were leaky and so you know, town halls with this sort of like really, you know, everyone was trying to get there and all this sort of stuff.

10:52Rachel Johnson:So I said, right, OK. And by the way, in between time, I met my partner who I married 25 years together, have a son. And I decided, what if we took this concept of under the town hall roof, me curating all these amazing small businesses, and we put it on this thing called the Internet because I've heard it's a big thing. and so that is how not on the high street started and it literally started and i think you hear about this about entrepreneurs you know you the wreath business wasn't a failure it was just the next stepping stone to the event business the event business was the next stepping stone to not on the high street and actually not on the high street for me now is the next stepping stone into my next two decades which is holly and co and so can i before you gallop onto to holly and

11:42Holly Tucker:Okay, middle-aged mum in a hurry. That is not meant in a pejorative term. I think I'm post-middle-aged. Can we just go back? I'm not middle-aged. Can we just go back to the start of marriage and the health troubles? Because this is difficult women. We don't shy away from talking about those difficult times. So, you know, were there any learnings, terrible word, from having had a, you know, a quick-fire marriage and dealing with those health troubles, whatever they were. You don't have to tell us, but I mean, it's a pretty accepting audience.

12:16Rachel Johnson:Yeah, I mean, basically, I say, I do say it to my son, you know, getting married at 1920. I mean, actually, my parents got married at 19 and 21. And I think that that's what gave me this Dutch courage. They're still together today. And so I married my childhood sweetheart. And, you know, you look back then and you go, come on, you know, there was so much growth still to be had in both individuals. But I was in a hurry. I was a slight, you know, a throw caution to the wind type of person. It had worked for me in the past because, you know, I didn't go get my degree. I went into advertising. All these things had worked out.

12:58Rachel Johnson:So maybe I had a bit of courage about all of this. and I would say just definitely don't let your kids get married at 20.

13:07Holly Tucker:Were your parents supportive of you getting married? Yeah, very.

13:10Rachel Johnson:But you know what? I look back at that and I think to myself, who was going to tell Holly no? No, exactly.

13:15Holly Tucker:And also if they'd said no, you would have doubled down. Absolutely. So I know that. You always say that people should listen to their gut. This was a really, you know, get it the person you marry is probably the biggest life choice you make yeah did you listen

13:32Rachel Johnson:to your gut when you were 19 uh no I didn't listen to my gut you know because when you're 19 and you're going through stuff and all this sort of thing you're insecure and so you know and I and you know definitely I was someone who was insecure and so actually it was just better to run with this and get security around me. That's what I thought, you know, get security around me and sort of bed in. And maybe I had been living in such a hurry. I was looking for some stability. But funny enough, getting married at 20 is not necessarily stability. And so, and I do totally agree, you know, now 25 years with my husband.

14:17Rachel Johnson:And, you know, I understand that is one of the biggest choices and certainly for women who create businesses you know what your home life is like you know that you can't do what you need to do as a woman in business if you do not have utter sheer support at home because it is you know what we're trying to pull off every single thing is stacked against us and so you have to have that support at home and I think that that's one of the biggest things for me that we don't talk about, which is that, you know, I got to go and be the entrepreneur and I got to give this everything because my husband, we decided that he would quit his job and stay at home from dad.

15:05Rachel Johnson:And that allowed me to sort of live guilt free because there was one parent at home. It just happened to not be the woman. So,

15:29Holly Tucker:how unusual though is your is your setup because you never hear somebody saying behind every great woman is a supportive stay-at-home dad who puts on the washing and goes and picks up the children from school and knows where the sports kit is do they ever ever ever ever and you know what it's

15:51Rachel Johnson:not easy because um you know it has challenged us that we're well practiced now you know my son's going to be 21 now so we're well practiced and that is all all calmed but you know you the the the change in role um because he was the only dad going to pick up right he was the only there was this and because we're laden with guilt anyway because we've missed the sports you know sports days and all these sort of things that we were you know it really is you you've got a you've definitely got roles within you and it's very difficult you've got them built into your dna it's very difficult um to swap roles yeah so difficult for both both sexes actually yeah absolutely yeah you know you want the woman's caring about what everyone's eating and and and and where they're going, and what's been packed in the thing and everything.

16:43Rachel Johnson:And then the guys basically wanting to be more alpha and protective of the home and bringing in and, and when those two things swap, it does, it creates issues. But I was lucky enough that we were very, very solid, and we went through those issues. And now it's even though he asked me never to do it again, as in build another business, he sort of now knows after 20 years, that you will, this is me you know I will be this is where I'm in my happiest place building companies and helping people so it's been a beautiful thing to watch him allow me to do it again can you briefly describe what Holly and Co is to listeners yeah um Holly and Co is a um well it's just it's a joy right now I'm definitely the mad scientist and I'm in the concocting new business basically.

17:44Rachel Johnson:And so Holly & Co is a marketplace supporting small businesses. So we're two years old. We've been called the liberty of small business. So basically I have built, I'm the only woman to have built two marketplaces in the world. And so what I did is I was 28 when I built Not On The High Street and I've learned 20 years of lessons. Nottingham High Street was sold in 2021. And I just knew that I could do better and do it again. And so, and in this new era. And so I have. And so we have launched October 23, we launched a new marketplace. And it is amazing because the 800 small businesses on the site, 75 % of them are over 40 years old and 95 % of them are women.

18:31Rachel Johnson:And so I feel like it's almost like we've all grown exactly the same time. But now with Holly & Co, what it will become will be my launch pad to tackle some of the issues that I feel have not been addressed, such as consumers properly voting with their money. I mean, when I started Nottingham High Street, I think that we still didn't understand about small businesses and supporting small businesses. You know, the word mumpreneur was created in my time, right? So it was such a different era. Now I think something like Holly & Co can become sort of a beacon for things that really matter to me in my life, which is supporting small businesses, the backbone of this country, helping women create businesses, and maybe just reframing what we think business is.

19:22Rachel Johnson:because I just don't think, I think it needs a rebrand. And I think that we need to rebrand it and get more people going after their dreams. And I think that could be a key to a happier life. So those are my three missions. And I'm just going to use my new marketplace as my launch pad to do even more work than just be a great retailer.

19:45Holly Tucker:How has being dyslexic, has it been your superpower or has it actually been a disability, a learning disability or whatever the accepted phrase is for it?

19:57Rachel Johnson:It has been. I look at that now. I definitely think it's made me, me. Definitely. I have my own podcast as well. And I would say something like 70 % of my guests, who are entrepreneurs, are all neurodivergent in some way. and so I have to say that it is definitely made me me it's wired my mind in a way that I'm more curious more visual even the way I can story tell it's because I have to build pictures in my mind and then I just articulate my visuals and so that really makes sense to me and people say you know what you really you can tell a great story or you really take me on the journey of why something is happening and I'm like well that's because my whole brain just had to do a whole load of pictures and I stuck them all together and I've just told you what they were and so it it feels very obvious to me but I don't think it is necessarily obvious and and but I remember you know when I started not on the high street with my business partner Sophie she basically could rewrite the English dictionary and I can't even spell dictionary so it was almost as that she was checking my emails as a grown woman she was checking my emails because basically i force bell check but yeah yeah i mean

21:20Holly Tucker:you said something sorry um sorry to talk over you holly um in your conversations podcast um with business women you said a hugely high proportion of them are also neurodivergent then has there anyone ever studied the the links between Eurodivergence and you know the sort of thing that you do that's sort of not academic you're you know you're you're not brilliant with words although you're a brilliant talker but you know you understand how to tell a story with pictures

21:54Rachel Johnson:I mean so is it is there a connection there yeah oh absolutely um uh I would say um if you look at I don't know the statistic, but if you look at how many entrepreneurs are neurodivergent, I would just say it's going to be a huge proportion of them. I really, really do. And I think Conversations of Inspiration, my podcast, it's men and women. And actually, it doesn't matter. They have a new way of thinking. And then sometimes they don't even know that they're dyslexic or have ADHD until really later on. And then they go, oh, that's why.

22:33Holly Tucker:Do you think that what's your view about people self-diagnosing or becoming or getting seeking diagnoses in later life? I mean, let's leave children and send out of it. But, you know, adults are just, you know, sort of deciding that that's the label that suits them or finding a label that explains them.

22:54Rachel Johnson:I think I think it's quite interesting. It all depends what your relationship with yourself is. So I would say that actually, if you are curious, if you like yourself and you actually want to explore why you think the way that you think, then I do think actually finding this out is fascinating. because when you find out I recently only recently did a dyslexia test and actually I didn't quite realize that um you know for years you know because I didn't look back at it you know I thought dyslexia was all about my writing you know how I wrote and things it's completely about the way I think it's also about the way I hear you know so you can actually not hear things properly And that's why I have these things called holisms.