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Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women - Episode 199: Jazz Saunders
Podcast Overview Podcast Title: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women Description: This podcast explores the lives of women who have had to be "difficult" to succeed, turning the notion of being difficult into a compliment.
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Episode Summary In this episode, Rachel Johnson interviews Jazz Saunders, a reality TV star from Made in Chelsea, known for her kind demeanor and strong personality. Jazz notably came out as bisexual on national television and has been in the first lesbian relationship depicted in the series. The episode features candid discussions about Jazz's upbringing, her journey in reality TV, and her personal experiences with love and identity.
Key Topics Discussed
Jazz's Background
- Childhood: Grew up in North London and Surrey; attended Wickham Abbey school.
- Interests: Passionate about sports, particularly tennis and running.
- Family Dynamics: Jazz comes from a blended family and discusses how her fame has affected family relationships.
Reality TV Experience
- Made in Chelsea: Jazz's rise to fame on the show, her experiences and challenges in navigating relationships in the public eye.
- Authenticity vs. Performance: Discusses the balance between being genuine on camera and the pressures to create drama for viewership.
- Coming Out: Details her coming out as bisexual on TV and the buildup leading to that moment.
Personal Relationships
- First Lesbian Relationship: Discusses her relationship with Demi Sims from The Only Way is Essex, including the challenges of dating in the public eye.
- Navigating Public Scrutiny: Jazz reflects on how public interest in her relationship affected her mental health and personal life.
Difficult Moments
- Loss of a Close Friend: Jazz shares her experience with the suicide of her best friend and how it impacted her outlook on life and relationships.
- Support and Mental Health: Emphasizes the importance of checking in on friends, especially those in the public eye who may face trolling and negativity.
Insights and Takeaways
- The Complexity of Identity: Jazz elaborates on the fluidity of sexual orientation and personal identity, sharing her own journey of self-discovery.
- Empowerment through Vulnerability: By coming out publicly, Jazz aimed to inspire others who may feel unable to express their true selves.
- Community and Support: The episode emphasizes the importance of having a supportive family and friend network, especially during challenging times.
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Conclusion This episode of *Difficult Women* features a rich dialogue about self-acceptance, the complexities of love, and the realities of being a public figure. Jazz Saunders exemplifies how one can embrace their "difficult" side to break barriers and make an impact in their personal and professional lives.
Follow Rachel Johnson
- Twitter: [@RachelSJohnson](https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson)
Subscribe Available on Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts.
Advertising: For advertising opportunities, contact dax@global.com.
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This episode provides valuable insights into the lives of women who challenge societal norms and embrace their complexities.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Elyse Saunders:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:11Rachel Johnson:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do. So we've got a bit of a Twixma special for you. This is Jazz Saunders. She's the standout star of Made in Chelsea, who came out on national television. This conversation contains an absolute Christmas stocking of exclusives, not to mention a three-way conversation with Jaz's mum Elise. Welcome to Difficult Women.
1:03Rachel Johnson:This week's Difficult Woman is the reality TV star and staple Jazz Saunders off of Made in Chelsea. Much loved for her kind, down-to-earth nature, her close friendships and her fiery rows. The reason Jazz debuts here on Difficult Women is that she's provided the equivalent of the Brookside kiss for Made in Chelsea as she came out as bisexual on national TV. And we have watched her in the first lesbian relationship of the whole series. On top of that, Jazz is a tennis and running fanatic. But first, your mum's here too, Elise. Can we just start with that? What was your childhood like? Where was it?
1:42Rachel Johnson:Where did you go to school? How long did you, you know, persevere in education and all of that?
1:47Jazz Saunders:So I grew up in North London. So confession, I'm not actually born and raised in Chelsea, everyone. So sorry. Great. news and then I spent most of my childhood in Surrey actually in Ockshot and then left there to go to boarding school so I went to Wickham Abbey school you went to Wickham Abbey I did yep I did however I left there after GCSEs I was straight out of there into pro tennis
2:12Rachel Johnson:that's interesting so you discovered that you were very good at tennis very sporty so you did your GCSEs at Wickham Abbey which is if you don't know everyone is the probably the premier girls boarding school in the country I would say lots of good memories there for sure
2:32Jazz Saunders:but as you know it pushes academics over everything so I think that was the first time I probably discovered that I was a difficult woman because I would barely wear my uniform I was always in sports kit I couldn't sit still in class I was smart bright and studious but I was always trying to play with something a pen I was yeah wearing my PE kit and I wouldn't say I was rebellious but I definitely preferred sports.
2:57Rachel Johnson:Were you always being punished?
2:59Jazz Saunders:In different ways I just thought that wearing school uniform and a tie was a punishment in itself so yeah I think I think so I was a bit cheeky because I just wanted to be outside all the time play sports.
3:09Rachel Johnson:Did you have a kind of pony riding tennis playing tree climbing childhood uh yeah pretty much i was yeah this
3:18Jazz Saunders:i used to um juggle i used to want to be in the circus i was very much an outdoorsy kid um for sure and then stayed that way pretty much yeah up until i mean i'm still that way now i love my running that's a new thing but in school i was definitely doing all the sports brothers and sisters oh two family's a bit complicated i've got a younger sister who i live with um older sister older brother stepbrother stepsister and then two half sisters so pretty blended
3:50Rachel Johnson:towards the end of this i might ask you what a blended family saunders christmas is like oh my goodness it changes every year but it's so much fun do you all get together well we used to and
4:03Jazz Saunders:then now it's a little bit difficult because my older sister she's moved to Australia um and then yeah so I guess it is pretty similar but she won't be joining us this year so I mean we are
4:17Rachel Johnson:going to get into your reality tv career but has your fame changed your relationship with your family and your your brothers and sisters not at all to be honest I think they still
4:30Jazz Saunders:they definitely keep me humble not that I like shouldn't be humble because I'm in the public but they're like Jasmine they bring me down to earth that's for sure when you know sometimes they think I can be a little bit difficult um but no not at all in what way though oh I don't know I'm very much like a here there and everywhere type of person like I am always out busy doing things so obviously I would never miss a family function but they're literally like Jasmine family first you're going to be here on time you're not going to be leaving early and doing all of this so yeah they definitely make sure that I'm still a homebody and is that why you're
5:09Rachel Johnson:the same on and off camera if if you are indeed are off the same on and off camera definitely I
5:16Jazz Saunders:would say I am obviously I adapt to different environments like someone was telling me that um you know I was I was very different than the other day but that was because I was out and I was having a few drinks so yeah I guess they and my outsider filming friends are very uh important to me in that aspect because they always tell me like remember you know remember where you came from and all of this I'm acting like I'm Beyonce I'm literally like a normal person on a reality
5:44Rachel Johnson:TV show in the UK but I know but it's really popular and it's on channel four and all my kids watch it and I'm getting whatsapps for them now they might have to play some questions to you I have to confess jazz and it's only honest I'm not an aficionado of the series that is so fine but my children are I mean they love that they I mean reality tv is I've done it myself but I I don't watch it very much because I find it really addictive oh yeah I mean my children are just being sucked into Maiden Chelsea, into Below Decks, into TOWIE, into I'm a Celebrity, all those things. Can we talk though about what makes Maiden Chelsea different from the other reality TV shows?
6:29Rachel Johnson:Because I've done a few and I have to say that none of the ones I've ever done have been scripted or even semi-scripted and I have heard that Maiden Chelsea is.
6:40Jazz Saunders:Oh really? Oh well here's the thing, I tell people, it depends on my situation and what seen they've watched but if it doesn't go well for me I tell them it's scripted but it's actually not there's no script um obviously we get produced like any other um reality tv show but it's unfortunately not scripted and I've just exposed myself but but that makes it much more compelling
7:01Rachel Johnson:because if it is scripted you don't believe in it because when I see somebody breaking up or or a kind of or faith unfaithfulness being exposed or whatever you see in the you know in the brief bits I catch on on socials you think nah that was all scripted nah that can't be true and so you're saying it's all impromptu yeah it's all definitely yeah and look at me in the eyes I promise you
7:27Jazz Saunders:definitely it's real I think people can get carried away and start being a little bit performative just to enhance the situation but it's definitely everything that we say we are responsible for but I just blame the show sometimes and I'm like no that wasn't me and so
7:43Rachel Johnson:I suppose in all things it's a competition for eyeballs and attention and popularity though so do you kind of monitor the other cast members for creating thirst traps and kind of drama and you think uh-uh that's not that's not authentic you're just putting that on sometimes I can tell when
8:03Jazz Saunders:someone's doing that and I just have to laugh and I'm like each to their own everyone can do what they want but it's I feel like it's definitely a bit obvious when people do do that um I for one don't I personally don't like just creating storyline just to get more air time and all of that because a story has like a start middle and end and you're also not really in control of the way that they want it to go um so I feel like it's risky when people do that because you think you get found out if you do that yes definitely like I remember one time back in my um well I don't want want to say straight days but when I was dating men I had a secret boyfriend and they found out about it and it wasn't good because I was lying to them them being the producers correct yeah so that didn't really go down very well because it's a reality show and you're meant to you know tell them everything about your life and you kind of have it's good to have good relationships with
8:55Rachel Johnson:them because then they're otherwise they fuck you up in the edit we are allowed to say that by the
9:02Jazz Saunders:yeah yeah basically so I've learned over the years because I've done it now for I think two and a half years so I've learned now that not being honest is not good okay but
9:12Rachel Johnson:Maiden Chelsea's been going on for a long time so they must always be looking for fresh blood I have to say I think one of my children was asked to be on it oh really yes and he said no thanks to mum yes um but did your mum who's sitting outside ever say don't do it darling uh about a million times
9:32Jazz Saunders:yes like me no yes i forbid it i literally have i found the messages the other day and a casting producer messaged me on socials before i joined and i sent it to my mum and i was like what if i just do reality tv as a joke and she was like absolutely not like you know think about your
9:51Rachel Johnson:education and utilize your skills and that's what I said and I said things like you've got to be known for something before you're known for reality tv I actually agree I mean I did not
10:01Jazz Saunders:do that I fully graduated uni and had a summer of fun and then joined it straight away but the story is my mum when I said that my mum was like absolutely not you're gonna get a you know real job you're gonna apply for jobs you're gonna work hard and you're not gonna you know f about all summer basically and so then I was like I didn't know what to do because I was always wanted to pursue like professional tennis and that's the only thing I've ever really thought about so when that didn't work out um and I came back to the the UK because I was living in America before playing tennis my mum was like right you're gonna get a real job and so I was like technically if I join Made in Chelsea I'm getting paid for it and it's a job and I'm having fun with my friends so because I wasn't ready to to work because I'd spent every single summer on the circuit playing tennis competing so I was like I just want a summer of fun but my mum says I have to get a job me and Chelsea and then she didn't have a choice I said mum I'm doing it and signed the contract and a few days later I was doing my first scene sorry mum I know you're still pushing
11:03Rachel Johnson:I think that we can take it that she's not unhappy because she's here with shopping bags so life is pretty good and you look very happy and you're glowing
11:29Rachel Johnson:can't avoid the fact that you've you've you've been in the news this week i have i have can you Tell those who may not be acquainted with the dramas in your love life why you've been in the news. I think we better start, before we get on to the drama, with the scene I have watched, which is very touching, of you saying that you're attracted to women and you're bisexual as well as having dated men. And a really, really tender scene, actually, I thought.
12:04Jazz Saunders:Yep, I remember that fondly. that was filmed in January this year still. I can't believe it's only been this year. Like, yeah, 11, 12 months ago, that was me. Well, 11 months ago, that was me. So yeah, it's been a crazy year and that was the best thing that I've ever done. Did the producers know you were going to say that? Yes, so... I'm trying to remember. Yeah, so the night before, I was having a very candid conversation with Jules and with another girl called Ruby and I was just like dating men it's just not good I was kind of pushing but I didn't want to tell them so I was like dating men's just not working like something's missing and it was Ruby actually who said what about girls and I froze and I burst out crying they burst out crying and it was a beautiful moment that with time we then decided like look this is obviously something that you've been wanting to say would you ever film about it because we were filming in the Maldives at the time and I remember I think they wanted the angle of me to date a boy out there and I was like oh that is my worst nightmare I just some I'm in a funk and you know I want to say something but I had never really told anyone and so I decided that if I did bring it to camera I would face my fears and if I'm telling them on camera then everyone's gonna know eventually so that's why I'm like forever grateful for chelsea for giving me that safe platform to do that because i feel like if i didn't film about it i would have never have come out which is crazy well it was a very smart way of doing it because it was you know how else do you come out you tell your did you tell
13:46Rachel Johnson:maiden chelsea before you told your family for example yeah which is crazy my little sister always knew because i've had that was what i was going to ask when did you find yourself same-sex attracted?
13:59Jazz Saunders:Hmm. Mum's listening. She's all right. So I think it was in the US. So I moved to the US in, well, yeah, during COVID. That was my freshman year. So your age 20? 20 I think uh 19 20 and I had this experience with one of my tennis teammates which obviously ended badly because it was something that we were both kind of like experimenting exactly and I think in the US it kind of opened up my eyes a bit I went to a very liberal art school something that you know having previously gone to Wickham Abbey I wasn't really exposed to a lot of different mindsets and stuff and different views and so I went to this liberal arts school and I literally took it yeah I took it literally I was like wow this is a whole different different life out here and I just thought I'll experiment and yeah so I had that with my teammates so I kind of knew okay surely if I'm developing feelings for someone who is a female there has to be I didn't really know how to define myself but I was like something's there and my little sister she studies psychology so i remember calling her up years ago now being like what am i if i'm having this thing with my teammate who's a female but like i'm meant to be into men and she was like jasmine she was amazing so she and she kept it a secret all those years so she was helping me through all of that difficult time i think people
15:31Rachel Johnson:are very confused by same-sex attraction um especially in women and they want to understand when it happened and why it happened and they want to know whether it's to do with your sexuality the chemistry or whether it's to do with being
15:56Jazz Saunders:in love with that person despite their sex have you come to any conclusions about it I think for me with this first experience with a girl I was very much it wasn't really more so that she was a female it was her as a person and so I was like Francesca like what does this make me because surely I can't be bi because I'm interested in her as a person not necessarily the way she looks but then I've you know figured it out this year that I'm definitely into women and you know they're beautiful creations and they're just so emotionally well the females that I've obviously interacted with they're just so emotionally in tune and men just my experience with men sorry haven't been the same and I feel like it's a lot deeper um and women are just beautiful so yeah I've had to figure it out um along the years I'm still figuring it out now I mean I've only been technically out for less than a year so yeah.
16:54Rachel Johnson:Now let's move to why you were in the news. Yes. So what happened you were in a relationship with The Only Way is Essex star Demi Sims and you both posted on Instagram. Did you coordinate these posts what did they say?
17:13Jazz Saunders:I think we had been struggling a lot behind closed doors but I'm a very ironically I quite like being a private person I don't really like telling everyone my business I was actually away filming in Scotland and it was so hard because I was like super happy on set and super happy to be with my friends but I was going through struggles with um my partner and then yeah it had a very abrupt ending i haven't actually spoken about this i'm trying to like still figure it out but was there a cause for the ending um i think i felt like i needed to figure my stuff out and i felt like because it's really hard to explain because i've only been out like recently there's also an age gap she's a lot yeah she's older um and I think we just gotta spend a little bit of time apart to figure it out but I always think that everything happens for a reason and that if our paths are meant to cross again I'm a hopeless romantic I'm like oh I hope we meet again and get married and do all of that so yeah I think it was just a case of um we gotta both work on ourselves and hopefully find a way back.
18:37Jazz Saunders:So I must be quite complicated.
Read the full transcript
18:39Rachel Johnson:You're both on reality TV. I mean, I can see it's a kind of tabloid wet dream, really, because you're in the first lesbian relationship. She's on TOWIE. You're both separately famous in the circles of that world, the reality TV world, the tabloid world, the kind of shiny floors, red carpet world. and um do you think that in any way made your relationship more difficult more toxic than it might have been had you both been like you let's say been working on the tennis circuit
19:16Jazz Saunders:and she'd been a model right um yeah I would say it was extremely challenging because I've never been in a few an open female relationship before and also in the public a relationship in the public eye so my life just completely changed were you stalked and tapped and stuff yeah so I'll try and make this brief but when Demi and I first were getting to know each other I was filming I was training for a marathon she was training for a misfits boxing fight so she was in camp so we didn't have a lot of free time yeah um so when we were both invited to work events that we were both going to we were like we have to go and see each other because that was the only time we could like squeeze each other in and so one of them was um a red carpet premiere in march and so i had never been to a premiere before and i was i had no idea what it was going to be but i was like i want to see her and she wants to see me and we're both going to this event so let's just go together and watch the premiere together um and there i had two encounters this random lady came up to me i just come out on TikTok the night before because people were starting to pick up the pieces so I just very casually posted TikTok to the song Girls by Kat Burns which is like a clear lesbian song and then people just put two and two together and it was it went viral so I was like you know it's out
20:43Rachel Johnson:there now but I didn't know you sorry just to spin back so you you you talked to Jules on A Maiden Chelsea and then you came you went official on TikTok with Demi and then you did the red carpet
20:55Jazz Saunders:so I didn't go officially I didn't come out officially with Demi so I had filmed Chelsea in January and I was like great I've got four months until this airs no one knows I'm gonna keep this to myself until it comes out and then I'll just explain to people like my family and friends and then this is where the the premiere night ties into that I had barely told anyone but I was seeing Demi and we go to this premiere but I had just come out on TikTok um but no one knew that we were seeing each other and then this random lady comes up to me she starts talking about my tiktok and she's like oh my goodness how how did you feel and i genuinely was none the wiser i was like oh this woman's so nice like she's asking me all these questions was she a journalist she was and then i took some pictures with demi which i genuinely didn't think would go anywhere because it's like i just thought there was a photographer at the event and they were gonna we transfer us the pictures all of a sudden the next morning it was my like an exclusive and i was like exclusive what on the daily mail and it was like quoted by me and i was like i never did this and turns out it was that lady and then obviously they took the pictures from the premiere of me and demi kissing um and so i was very naive to that and then all of a sudden it was like demi sims and jazz are a couple and at this point we'd only known each other like three weeks so we were like uh-oh that's a lot it was a lot and then obviously that article reached my family before I could even explain and it was all such a mess but it made me realize you know to be a bit more careful careful street smart and don't trust anyone I don't know yeah she should have introduced
22:35Rachel Johnson:I have to say speaking up for my journalistic profession if you are a diarist or a columnist or a social blah blah blah you're getting copy for the sidebar of shame you should say who you are I had no idea. And you should say that you're harvesting quotes and that's, I'm afraid that's not quite right.
23:13Rachel Johnson:So that happened and then how did things go?
23:16Jazz Saunders:and then it was basically just okay I don't really know how to navigate this because now people like there are some eyes on me like obviously I was on Made in Chelsea before that so I had you know already in the public eye yeah but it kind of just skyrocketed basically and it was like people were getting so invested and I I really wasn't used to it at all outside of the Chelsea viewer bubble how much of the attention was positive how much of it was negative to be honest when i came out on tiktok and then when the episode aired because i think it aired in april so in that couple of months everyone was so nice and i feel like i feel very blessed to be in a generation where it is accepted and it is normalized now um more or less and so it was it was really really good and i'm so happy with how it all went obviously you get the odd like oh like you should go back to men and all of that crap but it's been really really positive and then navigating a public relationship was a bit more challenging because then you have people making comments on your relationship and and taking certain things and really reading into it and like even with my outfit choices they're like you're only dressing that way because of your girlfriend and i'm like no no i'm dressing this way because i want to dress this way do people start judging your
24:33Rachel Johnson:appearance because they knew you were a bisexual slash gay and thinking you should somehow dress or look us at differently now because your sexuality had been re-announced did you find that
24:47Jazz Saunders:it was more so like obviously people had only seen how I dress on Chelsea and what people don't know is that yes I'm I'm a feminine girl but because of my history with sports and like wanting to You're quite sporty. I mean, today you're wearing some kind of, this sounds mad, black sequined loon pants.
25:08Rachel Johnson:Oh my God, that does sound mad. Except that they're not loon pants because they're gathered in a kind of Aladdin way at the bottom. Yes, they are. They're cuffed. They're cuffed. Trainers and a black either leather or pleather jacket, which is very groovy. Bluzon style. A gold necklace and black T-shirt. So I dress like a teenage boy. I mean, that is my absolute preferred style choice. That's a vibe. That's a vibe. Yeah. That's a vibe. But yeah, so I mean, to people, the thing is about the public is what you did was you, it was an ask of your audience to love you as much as bisexual or gay or lesbian as they had loved you before when you were dating men.
25:57Jazz Saunders:I just feel like I just wanted to tell my story obviously the reasons why I did that was to confront my fears and to you know if I'm saying it to the cameras I'm saying it to my family and my friends in the audience so but ultimately yeah and I also wanted to do it for people that can't because I've been in that situation where I felt like I couldn't speak because I'd be judged or people wouldn't understand and there are so many people out there still out there who feel like they can't come out and be honest. What would you say to them? What would you say to them having done it your way? Oh, just do it.
26:32Jazz Saunders:And the people that are going to, you know, your true friends, your true family are going to support you regardless. It doesn't matter who you love, how you love. They should love you as a person, accept you for who you are. And it's honestly been the best year of my life. I've been dating men up until, you know, a couple of years ago and then dating women in secret. And now that I'm out, I've never been so happy. and people say it to me all the time they're like I've never seen you this happy and like flourishing so definitely the best choice ever but I can understand
27:03Rachel Johnson:any men listening will be wondering will you ever date men again oh sorry boys you know what men always think that it's just because you know you haven't found the right guy you know had the right treatment and you know what I mean and that you know they know how to treat a lady and you'll come back i know um that's true though yeah they do there is this in innate
27:35Jazz Saunders:buoyancy in the male ego sorry i'm trying to be polite but i think it's just ignorant and small-minded i get it all the time my tiktok jazz when are you gonna go back to men exactly i told you you like the people like you the reason why i would never but i think it's just more um I've you know learnt and loved and I've really come to terms with my sexuality this year and I genuinely am tunnel women vision tunnel women vision tunnel women yeah I think it works I
28:08Rachel Johnson:think there we go everyone knows what you mean okay we're gonna we're gonna wrap up with just two more questions and what is the world of jazz saunders going forwards the world of jazz saunders
28:20Jazz Saunders:Well, I am moving out in January, in the new year. I don't know when this comes out, but in the new year, I'm going to be living on my own, getting my independence back, starting fresh, turning a new leaf. Are you staying on the show? Yes, I will be. Well, we're currently mid filming. We did two weeks, the first two episodes in Scotland, and then we continue filming in January. So I will be on the show for the next season.
28:49Rachel Johnson:You know something? I'm now going to start watching it.
28:51Jazz Saunders:Oh, no. I am. You have just gained a viewer.
28:55Rachel Johnson:Oh, thank you. Yes. I have, and I'm going to be sucked into it. Jazz, just before we get to your most difficult time, I just thought I'd tell you that I'm going to my... I'm going to my... It's my daughter's wedding tomorrow. Oh, wow. Congratulations. In Hackney Town Hall. Wow. And she's marrying her girlfriend.
29:14Jazz Saunders:No way. Oh, my goodness. That makes me so happy. Congratulations. What's her name? she's called i'm gonna cry oh she's called charlotte and the girlfriend's called jess charlotte and jess yeah congratulations charlotte and jess please tell them i say congrats that makes me so happy i didn't even know you had well why would you oh my goodness no big deal is it wow congratulations that's amazing i wish them and she's so they are so happy yeah look oh you're they're on my screensaver oh my goodness there oh they're gorgeous what a gorgeous couple aren't they getting married tomorrow how are you feeling um everything's fine everything's because
29:55Rachel Johnson:they're gay yeah i mean the whole thing has been so organized yes it's like spreadsheets a year ago yeah and um all i have to do is not go totally mother of the bridezilla which i am i've got this i've got two hankies in my bag oh you're prepared my husband's making the first speech i'm doing a toast yeah and i'm just like i can't even talk about it i'll start getting i know anyway we've got to talk about moving from that pure happiness of my daughter thank you i will pass it on um we just got to slightly um buzz kill the buzz can we just have your most difficult time or when you've had to be most difficult i was thinking about this on the way here because there are so many times where I've had to be a very very difficult lady
30:49Jazz Saunders:and I don't obviously don't want to dampen the mood or make it a bit dark but I thought I'd just be honest and talk about um a death that I had to um grieve and mourn not long ago and there's a bit of a backstory but it was my best friend um and I saw her the night before I was the last person to see her um and she passed away by suicide she took her own life took her own life yep and I had no idea that she was struggling and so that was difficult for me to process and come to terms with because I was one of the closest people to her I saw her the night before we had dinner and she asked me to stay the night and I had to be somewhere the next day so I was like I'm so sorry like obviously having no idea um and so that's something that was extremely difficult to obviously go through but also having not really had a clue that obviously she was going through that so that was definitely a difficult moment for me the most difficult and I'm still you know I've I've stopped punishing myself now because I I didn't know it's not your fault yeah you you have understood that and processed that yeah it's taken a while so this was back in 2019 and so yeah a lot of time has passed it doesn't make it easier but obviously as I get older I'm you know learning more and more about that situation and yes that was difficult for sure to go through loss and also to feel responsible for that but I'm okay like I'm I'm healing like I'm healed from it so that was a difficult moment but obviously when I was thinking about it I was talk about this scene in Made in Chelsea and that scene in Made in Chelsea about how difficult I was being with everyone but then I thought personally that you know grieving my best friend was way more difficult now especially being around people in the public eye who are subject to all sorts of horrible you know trolling and comments and and there have been you know unfortunately a lot of a lot of deaths in the public eye due to um personal struggles so now I think having experienced that I always check in on my friends even if I've had the biggest argument with someone on that show and when it airs even if it goes my way with the audience and they're like go jazz the other person's x y and z I still don't like seeing that and I will still reach out to them and ask them how they are and you know there's no bad blood there and just to make sure that they're okay because the Maiden Chelsea viewers are savage sometimes and there are a lot of trolls out there so I'm just very wary I don't I think I would have been wary anyway but having experienced someone so close to me committing suicide and knowing that it's you know it has been prominent in the past with public figures I always check in on my friends always I'm sure you do and it's
33:47Rachel Johnson:been wonderful to have you on Difficult Women thank you very much Jazz for being this week's I've got women.
33:52Jazz Saunders:Thank you so much. Thank you. That was so fun.
33:58Rachel Johnson:Okay, so we've got a little bonus feature here, which is that we're going to have a mother-daughter three-way with me. You laugh nervously. Elise, your mother of jazz. I know this is a big blended family, but what was your experience of jazz, first of all, being on Made in Chelsea?
34:17Elyse Saunders:Well, I think as she's alluded to, I wasn't too keen, because I mean to be honest now live and let live I don't care I think it's great and she's really enjoying herself and holding herself really well but I did say to begin with just you've got to be authentic and true to yourself if you're going to do this you know show who you are you're not pretty face holding up a bar you play tennis you're sporty show who you are and she did to be fair one of her first scenes she was hitting a ball and you know doing what she does best which
34:48Rachel Johnson:sports so I was pleased about that good and then there was this uh sudden reveal um when you would when Jazz was talking to Jules and then of course the TikTok that that's been discussed to what extent did Jules's I mean Jazz's secular reality come as a surprise to you well she actually did
35:11Elyse Saunders:tell me before this came out on TV and before the TikTok I knew something was up in the Maldives is she's being a bit sketchy on the phone. And she said, something's going on. And I was like, well, what? You know what it's like when one of your children says something like that. You're like, tell me now. Now. Now. Right now. Well, what do you mean? She's like, mum, not now. I'll speak to you. The whole time thinking, what is it? What's happened? And this is when you were still going out with Demi. This is before.
35:37Jazz Saunders:Oh. Before Demi. Before Demi. But just after I'd come out on the show. And then I couldn't tell my mum. But then they did say, go, tell your mum. then tell us how it goes at production so that's then they i went home and we had a little discussion
35:52Elyse Saunders:but i still was quite coy about it so they wouldn't do any filming with between you two they wanted to and jazz said no i bet we've been on the we've been we filmed together afterwards and before prior with miles and that was fun but um they wanted her to tell me on camera she's like absolutely
36:09Rachel Johnson:not said no only she probably thought i would say something rapacious rapacious so you yes i I think that's probably wise. But when she said, I was kind of, when she said, I was like, is that all?
36:23Elyse Saunders:Because I'd hyped it up so much. And I was like, mum, did something? I don't quite know what I was expecting. But it was like, okay, great.
36:31Rachel Johnson:You must be terrified. What could it be? Did it cross your mind it was about being bisexual?
36:36Elyse Saunders:No. I don't even know. Because I think, well, she's not going to say anything. I'm not a person to be shocked at all. I mean, you know, so that didn't bother me at all. I was like, yeah, you know, one of the four is going to be gay.
36:47Jazz Saunders:cool no problem and then we actually had like a bottle of red wine and steak at our favorite restaurant afterwards and that's when you were like right you've got to tell your stepdad and
36:57Elyse Saunders:i was like and then a couple of glasses of wine it was a bit of a pain because he was like oh well he started naming her friends it's like oh what about this one and what about then she's like no they're my friends i think that's that's the difficult thing is because like i think you said at the beginning it's difficult to understand get you know gay women in that sense to gay men you kind of with women it's kind of you've got your girlfriends who you're very pally pally with and touchy-feely with your girlfriends anyway even if you're straight and so then people are second
37:33Jazz Saunders:guessing everything so yeah I think a lot of people still think that me and Jules are in love secretly and we're in this like secret relationship but she is just like my platonic best friend
37:45Rachel Johnson:um but yeah it's just funny isn't it my goodness anyway thank you both so much thank you for joining in the conversation you're not a difficult woman yet but I'm sure you have your moments
37:57Elyse Saunders:Elise oh I've been very difficult in fact I'll just add to this I was saying this to my dad the last couple of days when she was three having a tantrum her little woodland creature nighty not going to bed one of my best friends said you know all the crap you gave your parents you're going to get back ten times over with her and they weren't wrong because I was rebellious she is a tough cookie very tough cookie
38:23Rachel Johnson:well she has to be it's not an easy road but look how she's making a success of it so I'm sure you're a very proud mum
38:33Elyse Saunders:I am, she's lovely we have a good time
38:36Jazz Saunders:now we're off to the party see you there
38:50Rachel Johnson:I wasn't making it up I am really going to turn on to see Jazz in Maiden Chelsea I think it sounds gripping television and I just can't wait to see how her life and her loves develop. Thank you for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. Just remember to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday afternoon. Bye and happy new year.
39:36Elyse Saunders:This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
This week's difficult woman is the reality TV star Jazz Saunders, much loved for her kind, down to-earth nature, close friendships and fiery rows on Made in Chelsea. Jazz came out as bisexual on national tv and we have watched her in the first lesbian relationship of the whole series. We discuss all of this and we also hear from Jazz's mum Elyse. Enjoy!