203. Eluned Morgan

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0:41Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.

0:54well my kids would be absolutely in bits if they knew that i had sharon gaffer off of love island as my guest this week um full disclosure i don't watch love island but i had heard of sharon gaffer because she's an activist a campaigner and maybe even going into politics Welcome to Difficult Women.

1:34Sharon Gaffka, I think we're going to do this in two halves. It's going to be pre-Love Island and post-Love Island. Okay. at 18 do correct me if I get anything wrong because this is the first time I've met you okay fine at 18 Sharon joined the UK civil service I love the fact I'm talking about you in the third person yeah working across working across like health Brexit policy and you did stuff stuff on Krona as well yeah so so far so sensible sounding in 2018 that's what seven years ago um you were crowned Miss International UK yeah having competed in pageants and there is also a pageant ongoing I see there is yes you might get to that 2021 Love Island yes um which is a bit of a showstopper I mean all my kids were addicted and I think I'm going to stop there and ask my first question which is you're an Oxfordshire girl yeah you know South Oxfordshire is your home, where you went to school, where your family live, where you still live.

2:41Why suddenly? And you're a civil servant. Why did you do Love Island? Do you know what? I think it was an accumulation of lots of different reasons. My colleagues, they really wanted me to submit an application, despite what the British press will say about how everybody was shocked that I went. that's not true um it was heavily encouraged by my boss and my colleagues and I joined the civil service at 18 I'd worked all of my 20s COVID had hit and I caught COVID before we knew people could survive it um so I was like well if I die you know I'll have spent however many years working and not living because my mum also had um bowel cancer pre to me joining the civil service so And I was a young carer as well.

3:27So I hadn't done any living. And also COVID and Brexit was just chaos. So I needed a break and Love Island just presented itself. I don't blame you for a second. What was the application process like? Oh, my God. It was the hardest thing I'd ever gone through. Like everyone kept saying to me that the civil service, because I joined as an apprentice, the application for that was really intense. That's a lie in comparison to Love Island. It's like videos, obviously the random like application about your age and stuff. and then you have to do interview after interview with every single producer and there is nothing in your life that is untouched it could be anything from your sex life to family life and they are there are no rules about what they can ask you so it was really intense but then obviously you have to go for all the psychological assessments um and i didn't know that somebody would literally go with a fine tooth comb through your entire social media and i'd written a tweet about um female intuition and period pains and they made me do extra psychological assessments to ensure that I wasn't unstable because I talked about female intuition and it was a male psychologist was like I don't really know why I have to explain this to you but obviously you don't understand the perspective I'm coming from in this situation what did you say about female intuition and period pains it was something about um the mixture of period pains and female intuition giving you a very bizarre feeling in your stomach at the same time it's like a butterfly feeling but obviously a lot of people associate butterfly feelings with a lot of like emotional instability for some reason excitement desire yeah and i was like no it was just i thought something and it was right i'm sure there must be a scientific paper in that somewhere and you will have to write it sharon um for those who didn't see the series with you in it how did you find it what what stood out I think that firstly the obviously well some people say they're going in for hold on so there may be some people out there who don't actually know what Love Island is so do you want to explain about it you go to the Villa Ramor it's all very hot young singletons in theory and then yeah anyway so do you want to explain what it is yes so Love Island is probably I would argue the biggest reality TV show in the UK.

5:46It's a mixture of young, single people going to Mallorca or South Africa if you're watching the winter season. And my season was eight weeks long. So if you went in on day one and left on the final, which some people did, you would have been in there in solitary confinement basically for eight weeks. With these other contestants. And seeing producers occasionally, but basically on your own in the villa. And no contact with the real world. No phones. no phones no internet no music no books nothing like when I I explain it to people as if if you imagine lockdown without access to the internet without tv without music without being able to speak to your friends and do your weird zoom quizzes that's what it's like um but with strangers how long were you in for just under three weeks oh so bearable just I was in the big brother house for three weeks I would it took me much longer than that to recover from it but yeah no I felt the same but obviously I mean I'm assuming it's like the same in Big Brother they tell you when to go to sleep they tell you when to wake up when it's time to eat so coming back to the real world and at that moment in time I lived by myself like how do I go back to being a normal adult and knowing when to go to bed by myself so it took ages for me to get back to like to a normal body clock because obviously they want you to film when it's dark so I couldn't go to sleep when it was dark outside or when it was light outside so for a whole week I didn't sleep properly and then you are in you're in a bit of a weird rabbit hole reading all the comments on social media and that's afterwards yeah so when you came out did you feel that sort of post-traumatic thing of being hit by that wall of social media I think I just semi-prepared for it because I did beauty pageants and having been to Japan in a lot of other countries pageantry is like being an English footballer.

7:34It's like a big national sport. You are a celebrity overnight. So when I touched down in Japan, I was like a celebrity instantly there. So I'd semi-experienced it on a much smaller level. So I kind of knew what to experience, but I didn't get the nicest of edits. People that don't know reality TV, you are given a cast type, you're given a character because I'm an Asian, outspoken, well-educated woman with an accent like this. It's very easy to cast type me as the villain. So I was given, in my opinion, the worst edit that you possibly could give me. And therefore I was on the receiving end of death threats, threats of sexual violence, stalking, harassment, like anything you could possibly think of, I'd probably experienced it.

8:17And how do you judge it now, the way the public saw it and how you felt you'd come across during your time in the villa? I understand why the public perception of me was negative. Did you re-watch all of it? I didn't. Actually, there was one scene in particular that I refused to re-watch because that's what caused majority of the harassment. Can you tell us what it was? It was the argument between myself and a male contestant over cosmetic procedures for women. Right. I hadn't watched it, and then I was doing my first feature on Jeremy Vine's show, and they played it in front of me. So obviously, I can't walk out of the studio.

8:52I had to watch it live on air. And watching it, I was like, that is not what happened. what everyone saw i understand why people were angry with what they saw and i held my hands up completely and said you know i apologize if that upset people but what you see isn't the big picture what i experienced as 24 hours a day what you saw is 40 minutes well actually five minutes of a 24 hour time period so for me like that everything is built up your emotions are built up because you can't have access to your support system you are in a room with strangers all you have to do every single day is talk about each other.

9:26And to me, that's like the worst thing in the world. But then when you're constantly being forced to spend time with a man who wants to say negative things about women when he's being rejected and make very personal remarks about insecurities, cosmetic procedures, as a feminist, and as someone who had relationships with these other women as a friend, I'm not going to stand by and take that because I think it's disgusting behaviour. So I called it out for what it was, but obviously because of the characteristics of myself. I think I dimly remember this now. Obviously, you accused the men in the Big Brother house of being misogynistic.

10:03Oh, there was a lot of misogyny in my season in particular. And it's to do, in your view, with rejection by females. I mean, that's kind of the beginnings of an incel culture, isn't it? Yeah, so that one particular incident I'd mentioned about the cosmetic procedure arguments that came off the back of them being rejected by a woman. Then there was another incident. Sorry, what is the, can you just summarise the argument you were having about cosmetic procedures? They said, I don't like fake, which if you don't like somebody who's had enhancements, that is a preference. I have no issue with that.

10:36What I don't, what I do take an issue with is you consistently saying it, like loads of times, I don't like this, I don't like that, pointing at specific people, talking about specific features. And then for the last 72 hours, before that because there are days that are not filmed um but you know they make you stay in certain groups so you don't have conversations with other people so you'll be forced to spend time with your couple um they'll they went really in depth about things they do not like about a person but i know it's because that person had rejected them um and that otherwise why would you have gone to pursue them in the first place if you don't like how they look so it didn't make sense to me and that person when i came out of the season had already made comments about me saying that I wasn't the type of person you could bring home to mum and dad on the first episode there was a comment about me calling me a gold digger because I'd only dated men that had professional careers in my previous dating history which didn't make me a gold digger because I like nice things and I didn't want to be a stay-at-home mother to four children so from and there was I remember reading lots of lots of articles in lots of different media forms that don't typically talk about love island talking about how the men in the villa wanted these like 1950s housewives but weren't willing to provide the 1950 housewife lifestyle and that's what i took issue with i don't want to have children with somebody that will not have equal division of labor unpaid labor in the household and i don't think that's an unreasonable ask i think every woman should have equal division of household labor well it's definitely an aspiration it's not often the reality when um you know for the example the first six months you may be breastfeeding no and then the the your other half may be still going out to work if he hasn't taken paternity leave that sound could mean a lot of things and when something's going wrong at home the hardest part can be figuring out what the problem actually is.

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13:17you're 29 i think yes i am um is having a kind of you know husband and two kids part of your life plan do you know what it for me i was adamant that i would never have children that i would be the auntie to all my friends kids i think the partner i'm with now we've had very long hard conversations because we're both at that age where people tend to settle down and get married and talk about children. From the off, I said I wasn't keen on children. He shared similar values to me. But I think that I have to feel comfortable with the person that, obviously, apart from the breastfeeding and the fact that I have to physically give birth to the children, they are going to step up and be an equal partner.

13:59And I don't feel like my career is going to suffer as a result of me having children. But if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, then I'm not going to, it's not going to be the be all and end all for me. I suppose the person who comes close because I was in the big brother house with Ashley James who you probably knows yes uh also big on social media although your platform of choice which we might talk about is LinkedIn which is interesting because it's more professional you're a LinkedIn influencer apparently Ashley has had two children and she's managed to incorporate them into her into her career by becoming really a momfluencer in a way i'm not sure whether you would go in that direction because your your your interests and activism is not around hearth and home it's about you know violence against women and girls and your experience with with um something that happened in i think 2022 which i want to talk about 2020 2020 was a year before i went into the villa the spiking yes right that okay i think that's what we should probably move on to yeah and your activism so can you can you summarize uh kind of your your current career yeah what's your current portfolio and then we might take each bit in turn okay are they aware how do i begin so yes i would firstly describe myself as an activist mostly specifically on tackling gender-based violence um in i think it was the day that lockdown semi reopened the first time we could go out i like my friends ran to the nearest restaurant bar grabbed the book like the any booking we could get because we wanted to see each other um unfortunately it wasn't the same as any other day lunch brunch out like we would normally have because i actually left the venue in the back of an ambulance um we were having lunch nothing was was lunch it was lunch broad daylight uh two three p.m somewhere where in london in london it was um i was living in london that moment in time it was you know in the southwest area so it wouldn't be in an area you would ever do not so ho or no no nothing like that it was you know it was like outdoor patio patioy vibes we were having wine and Caesar salad and fries and all that stuff and yeah I turned around to my friend said I don't feel very well I have a peanut allergy so we were like oh like you're just having a large reaction and I never came out the toilet cubicle I was completely unconscious I'd urinated myself because I'd lost control of my body I'd vomited my eyes were rolling into the back of my head I couldn't breathe I was unresponsive so that's that's not a peanut allergy one of the women I was with is a doctor and she knows my medical history because we've been friends since I was a teenager and she was like this is not normal this is not her drunk because I've seen her drunk um so they rang an ambulance I woke up in Chelsea and Westminster Hospital A &E and um how many hours later couldn't tell you I didn't know how long I was there I didn't know where any of my personal possessions were I didn't know how I got there where my friends were because it was covid so i was on my own um the only thing i remember was waking up another drip was being fitted so when i looked up at the cubicle ceiling there was like four drip bags i can't i couldn't tell you what they were um and then on the other arm a junior doctor was trying to take another blood sample but they weren't telling me what i was being tested for so i have to this day i had three blood tests no results no letter to my gp um nothing no recollection it's basically like as if it never happened would but also we know that the the date raping or the the spiking drugs have disappeared from your system quite quickly don't they so they those blood results may not have proved anything they don't test for either the nhs doesn't have the capacity to do toxicology testing it's down to the police to do it but by the time if i'm unconscious and i've gone to a and e and i've presented that by the time i've come regain consciousness and felt like i needed to get the police involved it would definitely would have been gone it lasts 12 hours max um so for me no chance of getting any criminal conviction and looking back you you've told me that what you were having caesar salad and fries and and wine you can't i suppose identify any moment during your time in in that bar or restaurant where someone could have spiked you or maybe even stuck a needle in your arm so it for me it was drink it wasn't a needle how'd you know i know because um there were a group of men that were trying to come to our table and were told by staff multiple times because it's groups of six you must move away and um one of them had actually tried to make contact with me over social media to figure out where my whereabouts was so i know who it was okay there's no like there's no way of getting evidence there's not no circumstantial evidence either just he happened to be there and he happened to stalk you yeah how scary for you and it's really sad that i get to sit here and say i'm a lucky person like i'm a lucky survivor because what was the intention that was supposed to happen to me didn't happen to me because i had friends that were just so on it and very protective but i shouldn't have to sit here and say i'm a lucky survivor that somebody drugs me looking back what do you think the motivation is for people and i was literally talking to my daughter about this at Wimbledon yesterday because she's about your age.

19:41And I don't... I mean, she said it's rape, but it's not always rape. It's just you want to see that person lose control. You have control over them and you want to see them completely lose control. It's about a sense of... It's power play. It's a sense of having control and power over somebody. For me, it was either rape or sexual assault. but I've had almost 2 ,000 emails, Instagram DMs from people saying that this has happened to them I'm the first person some of these people have ever told and they were robbed, they had money stolen from them homes broken into, all kinds of things so it's a manner of different reasons sometimes, particularly with young men that I've had come forward to meet it was their friends doing it because they didn't want to participate in Class A drug taking They were being punished for not wanting to participate so they they were given drugs unconsensually by their friends and you campaign on this now but how how can you what's the message to give people about protect protecting themselves from this i think for me it's i hate to give people advice on how to protect themselves particularly if you're a woman because you've grown up with the don't take drinks from strangers always cover your drinks um rhetoric well you see i never heard that you know we used to go around mind sweeping you know in my generation okay well yeah when i was growing up it was always never take a drink from a stranger never leave a drink unattended if you've left it don't drink it um don't drink drinks that are fizzy cloudy all these kinds of things then they can put in the powders and and you won't notice you won't see it because it fizzes your drink up and it clouds up so um i had mimosas at that moment in time a drink that's fizzy and cloudy so now you never drink mimosas i i've had one mimosa since in the last four years and that was with my other half brunch my birthday and it did not i felt dread actually ordering it so i i don't drink them anymore but you go around and you talk about your experience of being spiked and what do you what's the message that you give to girls and boys women and men i think that people sometimes people see it as harmless joke obviously there are people with more a joke there are people that see it as a harmless joke there are obviously people that have very sinister intentions um it's a crime spiking is a crime but i think that the onerous is on the survivor or the victim to prove that there was intent of harm when you is it true that the the when you came around they kind of there was a suggestion you were blind drunk and it was kind of something yeah can you explain so when two paramedics arrived to me, they were male paramedics.

22:16The advice was that I should just go home and sleep it off because I've drank too much. And it wasn't until all of my friends were like, no, we know her. We know what she's like. If she's had one too many, this is not it. They flat out refused to take me home. They had to take me to the hospital. It seems mad given how prevalent spiking is. Is that the first responders thought you were drunk? People don't talk about it. People don't talk about it. They don't want to see it as a serious issue as to what it is. And sometimes I think they want to protect venues because venues could lose their licenses.

22:46And that's why venues don't want to help because they don't want to get involved and risk their business. So the whole point of me going around is that I want people to start talking about it. You know, the whole point of this podcast is about being a difficult woman. I get called all kinds of names under the sun for talking about it. But staying silent makes it easier for perpetrators to do it to you. Sorry, what? I mean, how on earth could anyone criticise you for calling out the risks to women and men of being spiked and the evil of spiking? In what universe is that being difficult? Because unfortunately, it disproportionately impacts women.

23:22So usually it's the woman that's asked for it, or she's wanted it, or she's taken drugs and then regretted it, or she wanted to be with the man and regretted it. It's all of the same stories that you hear and lies you hear about survivors of rape. it's like I the things I get is that I wanted it I asked for it I probably took the drugs and then regretted it um you know I was probably accepting drinks from random men but even if I was accepting drinks from random men that doesn't give you the right to put a drug in my body without my consent um and I think that we have a deeper issue with the lack of understanding of consent in this country or we just don't want to talk about it because they think it's a like teenagers think it's a blurred line to me it's black and white it's a yes or no situation there is no blurring about it and that is the thing that like makes me sick to my stomach when i talk to particularly young lads about stuff like this how do they get hold of this stuff to to spike i mean is it online buy on gum tree you're joking you can literally buy anything on gum tree these days there you could buy class a's on the internet and someone will come around it's particularly in london someone come to your house in less than an hour you can deliver something that could actually kill somebody else yeah it's that easy um and also you could have choked on your own vomit in the in the bog yeah um and because of the way i was slumped i could have choked on my own tongue because i was unconscious like they're it's just so honestly i'm oh i'm so glad my daughter i mean i'm glad they're all my children are my son was spiked by the way yeah it happens to men too yeah

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25:40You're a CEO of a charity, aren't you? Or a campaign organisation called Girls Know. Tell us about that. So partially that started off from being a podcast because I actually got told that I should be realistic about what I am able to achieve as a state-educated Asian woman. woman who told you that careers advisor at my school told me I should be realistic about what I can achieve if I wanted to go into politics because I didn't think university was going to be viable for me as a as a result of my mum being sick um so is your mum who's Indonesian and your dad my dad is half Polish half English so very you identify as Asian yeah I think just culturally like I spent a lot more time my mum was a stay-at-home mum so culturally I just gravitated more towards that the food was always Asian at home.

26:27A better than Polish food. Yeah I can vouch for that and I think I had a very Asian stereotypical Asian discipline my mum wanted me to go on to pursue medicine all that. And your brother's a nurse at the John Radcliffe? He is yeah so not quite doctor but he works in the medical field and you know I'm very proud of the work that he does and was very much on the front line during Covid so my family were very much dedicated to life and public service but i was told if i wanted to pursue in career in politics i probably should be a little bit more realistic i was going to ask you about that because a few years ago you were you were you're a labor member and there was some you were oh here's the headlines yeah why have you left the labor party i there's just a lot going on right now and i don't know how i i don't know whether i feel like my membership is valued i just think I think I'm a little bit more left-leaning than the current Labour government.

27:19Well, I did notice you had the watermelon on your Twitter handle, but I don't want to particularly get into the Middle East in this setting. I'm sure we can have a civil conversation about it at any point. But is that why you've left the Labour Party? I think it was before that. I think the winter fuel allowance stuff, I don't agree with what's happening. But they've U-turned on it. But I just think the U-turn came too late, if we're going to get that, in my opinion. But don't you think that, I mean, somebody like me who could probably afford to pay for my own gas and electricity should not get it?

27:55I do agree with that. So it should be means tested. But I do not think that the cost of means testing is going to be greater than just handing it to you, than giving it to you. I'm afraid, yeah, the cost of means testing. Well, I think there's an easy way of doing it. Oh, you should ask people to donate it. I mean, there should be a way of making it fairer. Oh, no, I agree. But that doesn't cost the earth. But I don't think that's what they did. No. Okay, so a career in politics is not on the cards or it is? I mean, it's not to say that I'd never go back. I just think that this current juncture, that's not where I feel like I'm sat.

28:37But, you know, I'm only 29. Most politicians are a lot older than me. so we just have to wait and see but I was told to be realistic about what I can achieve this is absolutely nuts I mean you can do what I always said to my children you can do anything what my father said to me and my mother yeah you can do anything but presumably your parents said that to you my mum said to me that I can do anything and she wants me to do anything obviously she came to this country wanting better for me than what was achievable for women and girls back in Indonesia and but she would tell me that because you're Asian you might have to work a bit harder because people will look at you differently um and because I'm a woman so I'll have to work 10 times harder because I'm Asian and then compared to my brother I'll have to work 10 times harder on top of that so working hard or having to work harder has always been told what I what I've always been told I have to do um but then that's the whole point of me setting up Girls Know Nothing because it was that's your podcast yeah so i think in my opinion you could only be what you can see and if you can't hear the real life experiences or be able to relate to somebody then how do you know you can go on achieve and achieve these things obviously the deputy prime minister at the current moment in time is from a working class background i'm not a working class girl but i'm state educated and you don't see very many politicians from state school more so now than when i was younger but like for people from a similar background to most of the cabinet is state educated at the moment yeah now but when i was a teenager not so much well i know there were more there were more serotonians in the in the cabinet called michael at one point and there were women in parliament or some crazy statistic yeah so i think that that's basically what it is i talked to women not women in parliament but women in in government yeah so i talked to women about their careers like the ups and downs why they've ended up to where they end up and then And it kind of just grew from there.

30:34Now I run like networking events for women to feel like they can come to a safe space and network because they don't have to be in a room with black and white suits and lots of men talking about really boring, mundane things. Because we liked how the networking should be fun, not scary. I'm very pleased to hear it. Now, by the way, that thing I said about atontarians and women, all those numbers are wrong. So please don't email me about it. Um, you, so you're the former Love Island contestant. How do you feel about being defined by beauty pageants in Love Island? And, or do you think that you've moved beyond that?

31:16I think I've moved way beyond Love Island. I think if you Google me, there'll always be something about me going on holiday and posting a bikini snap. But I think mostly Love Island is used as an SEO thing to be able to catch on to like everybody being into it at that moment in time. so I think there'll always be some people that can never look past the idea of me being in a bikini but we don't look at men in the same way like lots all of the men were topless on tv at one point in their life like that were on love island why do we not make those comments about them um so I just knew that it would always be part of that I don't feel defined by beauty pageants I've never felt defined by beauty pageants I think in society we teach women that they shouldn't be proud of their achievements and that they should be more humble and for me being in a beauty pageant was is an experience where I don't feel like I have to be humble it's encouraged for me to be proud and loud of my achievements and who I am as a person and I meet so many different women for so many different walks of life like my best friend we started pageants together at a similar age she's now I've now watched her become a lawyer solicitor I've watched my friends become social workers doctors um one of them just recently got um elected to a local council like they're women from so many different walks of life so do you want to mention the one you're in at the moment yes so because i think it's a public vote isn't there there is a public vote so man um shameless plug in yes so i am competing in i don't actually know when this is going to get aired well no so i'm at the end of july i'll be in miss university great britain the girl that gets crowned will represent Great Britain in Thailand.

32:52Great Britain has not won an international beauty title or crown since 1983. Back in the 80s, we were considered one of the powerhouse countries. We were proud of our contestants and there was a sense of national pride about it. Now it's not so much. So the girl is tend to be left on her own. We've never won a Miss Universe title. The closest we came was Amy Willerton during the Trump owned era in 2013. I'd forgotten that he owned it so Miss Universe to be clear is not the ones where you're incredibly ripped no I don't have the discipline for that so it's beauty not muscles Mr Universe must be doing muscles Mr Universe is all about muscles ok well it's not about muscles this has been absolutely fascinating Sharon it really has and I think I wouldn't rule out politics speaking as an older woman don't rule anything out yeah you know take all the opportunities because there will be many have can have you decided what you're going to tell me about your most difficult time or when you've had to be most difficult oh do you know what I think having to be difficult is a consistent theme in my life I actually couldn't I'm trying to pinpoint one but I think it was I actually would say probably when I had my miscarriage I actually had to be a very difficult woman then difficult and so was this because you said you you know children weren't in the life plan so was this a planned pregnancy no I was on contraception at that moment in time so it was failed contraception and yeah I miscarriage support for women in the UK is abysmal I had no help no support actually when I rang my GP and said I'm either having an ectopic pregnancy or a miscarriage because I'm in excruciating pain and it's on one side of my body and it matches all of the symptoms I was told well you know one in four women have miscarriages you'll get over it I was told this by a medical professional and like you know people didn't there was no certificates for me there was no care for me because it was under 24 weeks and so you know I think I had to be difficult in order to get the support that I needed otherwise I'd just be left to be left to fend for myself and whether it was a planned pregnancy or not miscarriage is one of the most traumatic experiences any woman can go through especially if they're on their own so I think that I had to be difficult and fight for that I'm very sorry about that um I've had one myself and it's unexpectedly soul destroying yeah it is and it's one of those weird ones where i feel weird talking about it because people are like oh i'm sorry but then some people like but you didn't want to be pregnant in the first place so you don't that's a matter you can't control the hormonal um sort of bus that hits you hard and then emotions follow in the wake of the bus like and you're sort of you know you're you're powerless really to control yeah and i think that there's no support for either parent in that situation um but obviously i i had to have the the physical aspects of the miscarriage as well your fan base will be excited to hear that you've you've got a partner who is sitting outside matt yes and um it was lovely to meet him um come on you can you can this is a safe space what would you say about matt Matthew is a good egg.

36:27Do you know what? I had fully given up on any form of relationship before I met him. Dating is in the streets. It's hell outside. Especially particularly for someone like me, whose society deems is difficult, men just don't want to put up with that. And he does very well in helping me go through my things and very adamant that he will help me in my political career one day. so he's your partner and your future agent i think you've done very well thank you very much sharon gaffica for being this week's difficult woman thank you for having me

37:10that spiking story is genuinely shocking and i do hope you are all really really careful out there folks it's it sounds like something you don't want anyone to go through really really shocking and good for Sharon for bringing awareness to that if that went down well why don't you if you haven't already that is listen again to my podcast with Ashley James she was in the big brother house with me she's a social media influencer and so on that we talked about in the podcast um thank you so much for listening to another episode of my difficult women podcast Just subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is ready to go every Monday afternoon.

37:55Bye.

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