214. Kadiatu Kanneh-Mason

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I think what people see are the successes, but when you're in the middle of it all, it feels like one big battle that you have to get up in the morning and keep going. And I think that's what we focused on, that you can never just stand on your laurels. sorry i've just realized what you've actually told me which is the school that incubated and educated and produced in you know along with you and and your children themselves this astonishing family has actually closed its music side did you me harry and mogan people often ask were you guests no we were not we were not guests no but it was we had to watch on the television at home with our hearts in our mouths.

0:53Because, of course, it was live, and Sheikou was so uncommunicative. Luckily, his manager was with him, his music manager, and we had to rely on her sending us texts to let us know what was going on. And then one text was, oh, Sheikou's fast asleep.

1:20Dr. Karyatu Kanemason. She's a writer, she's a speaker, and she's a leading advocate for music education, especially when it comes to diversity in classical music. and you will know all about her. You will remember when I tell you the next thing. Her family has been firmly seared on the national consciousness since one of her seven gifted children, Sheku, played at Harry and Meghan's wedding. So she's basically the matriarch of what the Times has described as Britain's most musical family. I'm going to ask you to list your children's names. I'm one of six and I don't think my father can list all six of us.

2:04Can you do seven? Oh, there's a challenge. So there's Iseter, Braima, Sheku, Konya, Genova, Aminata and Mariatu. Another flat vowel, Mariatu. Yes, all flat vowels. And they're all in some shape or form trained from very young age as classical musicians. And therefore family life in the Canemason House in Nottingham, from whence you've just come, was the subject of your acclaimed first book, which has got the most wonderful title, House of Music. I mean, it's all you need. You lecture around the UK, but I'd like to start with you, not your children. You were born in Sierra Leone, and you came here when you were a child, like seven or eight.

2:52Yes, actually I was five when I arrived. Okay, that's my never trust, never trust a brief. Yes, I think what it is is I moved to Wales when I was eight. OK. So that bit when I lived in Essex is always left out of things. So five years old, why did the family come to this country and how, we've got to ask now? Yes, well, my mother is Welsh and she met my father in Birmingham when they were both training to be teachers. My father was a carpentry teacher and my mother was a primary school teacher. and she followed him out to Sierra Leone and married him there, had four children. Then he died of a heart attack when I was four.

3:29And then we came back to it. Well, for my mother, it was back to the UK. Of course, for us, four children, it was to the UK for the first time. You say he died of a heart attack when I was four, as if it's something you've just had to live with, which you have. But how did that change your life? It changed it immeasurably because, of course, I lost my father. Then, of course, lost my homeland, lost my identity, arrived in Britain in 1970, end of 1970, which was not an easy time to arrive here. And suddenly we were immigrants in a country that we were told we didn't belong in. So that was horrendously traumatic in lots of different ways.

4:12Now, forgive me if this sounds intrusive, but you said your mother is Welsh or inappropriate and your father was from Sierra Leone. Yes. Are you mixed race or are they both black? No, I'm mixed race. OK. Yes. But still, when you came to this country in 1970, it was a very unreconstructed time. Oh, definitely. Yes. And we were seen. I mean, lots of people just thought we were adopted so that we weren't our mother's children. My mother had to go through quite a lot as well. So it was not easy. I mean, in those days, in the 1970s, it was raw. So it was on every street corner. It was everywhere you went.

4:49being? Racism, being called names, being told to go back home. That happened every day. So it was very strange being just a person in Sierra Leone. That's how it felt. And then coming to this country and being very much othered. And I don't think children get over that ever, actually. That's interesting you say that. Yes, it's deeply psychological. So there is a sort of scarring. Yes. And I think I talked to lots of people who were born in this country as well, like my husband. And for him, he was born in London. And I think maybe London you have, there is more of a sense of community. There are more people like you.

5:30So there's backup. But still, it was traumatic for him. But for me, I think it was the suddenness of arriving. And we were in this place where it was, I call hell, had broken loose. and we were very much a minority of one family in one place and we were the only ones. And also your mother lacked a partner to kind of be the shield for you, for the four children together. Yes, and there was a great silence around where we were from and who our father was and I think I was quite relieved about that. I thought let's try and pretend that that part of our life just didn't exist but of course we couldn't because everybody would say, where are you from?

6:14Why don't you go back home? So it's impossible, of course. It sounds so outlandish now. I wonder if it is because I think so many things were getting better, but there has been a change in the last few years, I would say, where that hostility and aggression, I would say, is growing again, and it really worries me. I think we've seen a lot of it. I mean, towards lots of minority communities. And I think you're right. I think you're right. And I think it's very difficult. You come from a big family. You lost your father. Your father was one of 45 children. So there must be the most sprawling network of family in Sierra Leone.

7:03Yes, exactly. Lots of uncles and aunties and cousins and everything. Yes. 45 children. I've got to ask, by how many women? There were altogether 21 wives. My biological grandmother had 10 of those children because she was the favourite wife. But they don't make any distinction between half-brothers, half-sisters, or even cousins is the same word, brothers, sisters. So family is family. So cousins, brothers and sisters are all the same word. Therefore you can't have cousin marriage in Sierra Leone. Oh, no, you can't. Absolutely not. No. Yeah, right. OK, glad that's a tribute. You went to Southampton University.

7:45I read English. OK, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry, this is really annoying now. I'm going to write to Jimmy Wales. Yes, I read English. You read English and you met. You did meet Stuart. I did. OK. You did a doctorate, PhD at the University of Sussex. and tell everyone what your dissertation was on. So it was in English, but it was on post-colonial literature. And my thesis was on, it was called African Identities. So it was about, I suppose, how the idea of African identity ever came about, what the idea of Africa was and where it grew from. And it was in that clash between the West and Africa. So, and the literature that came from that as well.

8:32You should turn it into, has it been published? It is a book. It is a book. Okay, well, run police. It sounds incredibly important. So you're obviously one of four, your father's one of 45. You knew you were going to have a big family. Is it true that you had seven? Because you make a joke out of it, which is Stuart wanted three and you wanted four. That's true. So you thought that meant you could have seven. So, yeah, I had my four, he had his three. Perfect. No, seven was, it wasn't accidental exactly. I definitely wanted four so Stuart agreed and then we just carried on because they were so lovely oh that's so I mean you know my brother's got nine oh wow he's so lucky yes he is and they're all wonderful but with three women right and do you think you know when I was in my childbearing years it's like a really powerful hormonal addiction.

9:35That's such a good way of putting it. Yes, I would agree with you. Because it's such an amazing thing to have a child, a baby. I mean, the happiness quotient is so huge and so unexpected and so surprising and life-changing. You can't stop. That's how I felt. I wouldn't have stopped, actually, if Stuart hadn't said, I think we can't afford anymore. I mean I don't even want to think about the logistics you also had miscarriages too I mean yes I had five miscarriages and that was sort of in between the children so there was a lot of grief and happiness and grief and happiness so the whole thing was as you say a kind of hormonal melee of extremes I would say in those years I've interviewed women who sit where you're sitting now who say that maternal health care for black women is particularly poor And is there anything you'd like to say?

10:30Because you've had so much experience, I presume, in the NHS. Yes, and I would say that on behalf of my sister, who was a teenage black mother, and she was treated extremely badly. I think there was a sense in which she was seen as someone who didn't deserve health care. She was a single mother as well. And she really did suffer, infected stitches, neglect, the whole thing. And that's when I noticed it. She had a child well before I had my children. But then I had an advocate and a backup and a husband and I was very, very articulate. But I think I have definitely seen that. And were you also quite lucky in having easy pregnancies and deliveries?

11:10Not all the deliveries were easy. You amazed me. With my fifth one, I bled very badly. Luckily, I insisted on being in hospital because with my parents from Sierra Leone, I know that hospital is a huge privilege and I wanted that. And good job I was because I got the health care. Well, I got the health care almost immediately, but it would have been very serious if I wasn't in hospital. I mean, you didn't have any at home? No, I didn't. And I didn't want to because I wanted that care. But I had to, I definitely had to fight for everything. I think also it's not just, I think once I'd had more than one child, I mean, I got to child number five and I was treated very much as though, oh, we can just leave you there.

11:56So I didn't experience pain like normal women. So there was there was definitely that. Where does that trope come from that black women have a higher pain threshold? That's definitely there. Definitely there. It's just like, sorry, I'm sorry. I apologize anyway.

12:17way how did it come about that i mean i should say that there's lots to watch about your family um you've had documentaries made and you've you've done takeovers of radio stations uh you've been featured you know across the world by you know what i'm looking at cbs bbc you know your programs about your family have won baftas and of course sheku who played at maggot's wedding was the first winner black winner of bbc young musician of the year but how did that kind of happen for your family yes i think i mean we don't focus on any of that for us it doesn't feel like that i think what people see are the successes but when you're in the middle of it all it feels like one big battle that you have to get up in the morning and keep going and I think that's what we focused on that you can never just stand on your laurels because it's a hard world out there and I think if you do anything to a high standard whether it be sport or music or any art form you have to keep going it's hours of practice every day and to get your child the lessons to get them the instruments to get them all that they need to become successful is a lot of slog and still is I think so how much do you put it down to your efforts and how much do you put it down to their will to succeed and to excel it's an interesting question I think it's two things I think it's Stuart and I knowing that there was not going to be an easy road that they would have to work twice as hard and we'd have to be behind them every step of the way and also I think it's their sense of the fact that they are seven and they are they were a community no they're not competitive they're not are they supportive then supportive gosh and I think they identify with each other they all know how hard it is and they and I think because they identify with each other if one is successful they feel they're all successful so there's definitely a bond and so I think it's both ways I think it's us but I think it's also their identification with each other I want you to paint a picture of what it's like let's say I mean I know the oldest is about 29 now yes and the youngest is 16 and they're all performing to a concert level yes and making their careers in music whether in education or not so imagine they're all let's say under 16 and they come home from school, it's four o 'clock.

15:00What is going on in the Canemason household? The first thing is a lot of noise and the second thing is food. I used to make a massive pot of food. They'd all sit round, they'd all have to eat. They'd be very loud talking. I mean, the only way to get yourself heard in my house is to talk louder than the next person. So it's just, it's mayhem. And then there'd be routine. so if they had homework if they were at secondary school they would do their homework and then it was practice so I would sit with each of them in turn I would rotate if my husband was home as well then he would help me and it was interesting because they loved that moment of attention so I'd go if they were practicing the piano for example I'd sit next to them at the piano and they'd have me for half an hour which in a house with a lot of children is quite a special thing and um and the rest of the time they would play together and it would be i mean there were times when especially their favorite game in the winter and autumn months was it was called um the dark game so they turn off all the lights race around the house and it was hide and seek in the dark and i'd be walking around carrying laundry baskets falling over things but that was their favorite game we were at least to play murder in the dark as well so maybe i don't know so your How musical are you and did you have to be in order to be a help to them?

16:26So I was given piano lessons at school and I went to, in those days it was a South Welsh comprehensive school, we all had music. So there was an orchestra, there was free music lessons and we all learnt music and loved it. And my husband as well, he was brought up in London, he had free music lessons, free cello lessons, free piano lessons. So we just thought that was something everybody did. And how does it compare to the provision now? None at all. So nothing's free anymore. It probably depends where you are. There's probably more on offer in London than in Nottingham. I don't know. In state schools, very little is on offer now.

17:03So you have to fight for it, pay for it, sacrifice for it. And you work now in music education. You're an advocate for it. I work in music education charities, yes, I do. and I mean how do you feel about having become the poster family for diversity in classical education it's a really interesting position because on the one hand we had to fight for everything and there was it was very difficult to find role models but now the children take that responsibility very seriously because they know how important that is and they have children coming up to them at the end of concerts and saying the reason I'm playing this instrument is because of you, which is incredibly moving.

17:45And it is really important. So, yes, it's a responsibility. We don't want to be the only ones forever. So your first book was House of Music, which I mentioned at the top, Raising the Canna Masons. And it's your memoir, your first book. And tell me if I'm getting this wrong, what it takes to raise a musical family in Britain divided by class and race. does that still do you think work as a kind of tagline for the book or could you look at it another way and say are class and race real obstacles in this country still or actually is your family proof that anything is possible i think it's a bit of both because i think the barriers if we think just about music um the barriers to music education are even more than they were, I would say.

18:38If you're in the state system, you don't get free music lessons. And in fact, lots of schools don't even offer music anymore. But in a larger sense, I think the barriers are still there. I think there's a great gap between private education and state education. And that gap is getting wider and wider all the time. And that really worries me. So I don't think those issues have gone away. And I don't see, I do see some change within classical music, because There are many more performers coming up who are from all backgrounds, but I don't see it getting easier, actually. So I don't think it's going to get better in the years to come.

19:16I think there needs to be a big change. But all your children, correct me if I'm wrong, have been through the state system. Yes. And so the musical education they received was something that you had to add on or did the school not provide any? Well, they were really lucky. They went to state schools in Nottingham, which were big on music. And there was the secondary school they went to had several orchestras. They celebrated music. It was registered as a music and arts school. That has all changed. It no longer is. They've sacked many of the music teachers. The music provision has very nearly gone.

19:55And that's happened terrible. Because even when the older ones were at school, we had to pay for the specialist music. so we paid for them to well they auditioned to go to the Junior Royal Academy of Music, we travelled there every Saturday because we wanted to give them the best In London? In London so we used to get Sorry, I've just realised what you've actually told me, which is the school that incubated and educated and produced you know, along with you and your children themselves, this astonishing family has actually closed its music side. I mean instead of instead of advertising the fact that this is a destination school if you're a musical child I think it's happening and it has happened to a lot of state schools because the idea there isn't the budget there isn't the will there is there aren't the policies so Sheikhu won BBC Young Musician in 2016 on the cello a month later they sacked the cello they got they didn't replace they put it the cello teacher at the school and from then on it actually went downhill rather than uphill.

21:03But it's a nationwide picture.

21:10I know that you are a normal family, normal to you anyway, because it's your family. To everyone else, completely miraculous and a sort of evidence that anything is possible. Yes. I forgot my question. Yeah, I think we are a very normal family. and the only things that make us abnormal maybe we have a lot of children A lot of gifted prodigies Well that's an interesting phrase gifted prodigies I think what we did was say look we love music we love the creative arts we love the performing arts we love sport and children can do anything if you give them the opportunity and you encourage and I think all we did was enable that and say yes of course you can do that of course you can do classical music just because you are from the background you are from doesn't mean you can't play as well as the next person so I think you enable and I don't think it's a question of some children are gifted and others are not I think some children are given opportunities and if they love it and if they have an aptitude and if they want to do it then they can succeed it's more that I wish people realized that that you know just it takes the will yes to be that's the most important thing um before I move on to your kind of what you're doing now in your difficult time, I've got to ask, what was it like when Sheku played Harry and Meghan's?

22:34Were you allowed to go? I mean, did you meet Harry and Meghan? People often ask, were you guests? No, we were not. We were not guests. No, but we had to watch on the television at home with our hearts in our mouths because, of course, it was live and Sheku was so uncommunicative. Luckily, his manager was with him, his music manager. And we had to rely on her sending us texts to let us know what was going on. And then one text was, oh, Sheku's fast asleep. He's having a nap before the ceremony. But he stole the show. He was very calm. And he said that he just played to the people in front of him and listened to the music.

23:17So for him, it wasn't the nail-biting thing it was for us. And was it a life-changing thing for your family or not? it was it definitely was because I think before that Shaky would won BBC Young Musicians so lots of things were happening in the classical music world but I think that was a moment it became more international I would say and I should say you know just everybody just google this family they've got documentaries they've got albums they've got you know recordings I mean galore and you will not be disappointed what are you up to now so now I've got two children still at home. My 20-year-old went to drama school, actually, not music school, did drama school for a year, came back home, auditioned for the Royal Academy of Music on the violin.

24:06So she's going in September. And then my last daughter, who's 16, wants to audition this year for the Royal Academy of Music. So soon, in about 18 months' time, I should have no children at home, which will be very strange. Yes, although they're always coming back. At the moment, my eldest is home. And tonight night my middle child is coming home they're always coming back and forth but yes that will be very strange i definitely a new chapter but you i mean they never go really never really go no unless you buy them houses well that's not gonna happen so to your difficult time caddy well for me i want a really good one well i think the the one that comes to mind is the one that's behind the latest book, To Be Young, Gifted and Black.

24:54And that was in 2023, when my eldest played at the proms. And it was an amazing night. And we she was on the television a couple of days later, we were celebrating. Now, normally, with social media, I don't, the children don't look at it, really, they don't look at the comments. Stuart and I always do. And we weather it together. but we encouraged them not to read reviews, not to look at comments on any social media. But I was unguarded so I was reading, it was Twitter X at the time and all the comments were really good and then the racist comments came up and it was the one that my 17 year old daughter saw over my shoulder was a comment like the only reason that Issa's playing at the proms is because she has the right melanin and she's taken the place of a white musician who should be there.

25:52So what's underlying that is she can't be good enough. She's only there because it's a PC choice. A diversity hire. A diversity hire. And my 17-year-old was inconsolable. And she'd been the one playing? No, she wasn't. She was crying for her sister. She was crying for her sister. And what it meant, I think, for all of them, because no matter how hard you work, no matter how successful, no matter that you're playing at the proms, the BBC proms, it's still not good enough. You're still not good enough and you won't ever be. And I realised then, I mean, for years that had been happening. I remember when Shaky won BBC Young Musician and we had the same kind of comments.

26:33The only reason he's won is because he's a diversity choice. And I remember thinking he's the first and only one black winner of BBC Young Musician. But even when he wins, he's still not good enough. So I thought, OK, we've never said anything before. We'd never spoken out about it because I think the only way to... We thought the only way that our children were going to become successful is that we don't talk about it. We just let them think they can do anything they want and we don't complain because if you complain, people don't want you in the door. So, but I thought now is the time to say something because I think a lot of people don't realize just how much racism so many people face and why it is that so many people young people don't have confidence and what racism does to young people it makes them not be able to succeed it's psychologically incredibly disabling so I thought now is the time to speak up about it and that's why I wrote the book and that's why I commented.

27:38But it was incredibly traumatic. And round about the same time, my son Sheku was on Desert Island Discs. And Lauren Laverne asked him, do you think that he'd been on last night of the proms? And she said, do you think Rural Britannia should be in last night of the proms? And he said, no, I don't think it should, because it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, which was an understatement and everything blew up it was all over the media and on twitter x on social media racism just exploded and i was so distressed by that that i remember i stayed in bed for a week because i think all the trauma of my childhood all the i think people don't realize just how traumatic racism is and it was those two occasions that made me write the book because i thought this is incredibly damaging.

28:32It's on the rise. And why are we having to go through this all the time? And people, a lot of people aren't aware of that. People see the glossy success. They don't see the day-to-day grind that goes on. How is Sheikou now? Oh, we told Sheikou not to look at anything. And he hunkered down, spoke to his friends and family. And a lot of them were very upset, but they just stopped looking. Whereas I made a mistake. Yes, they were very upset for him and each other. I can just imagine the Daily Mail leader saying yes cellist attacks you know Britishness ungrateful cellist ungrateful much garlanded cellist who played at Harry and Meghan's wedding attacks tradition, finest tradition of the proms.

29:21Yes and it's a shame because we are huge advocates of the proms. The BBC proms are really important. We love them And I think everything was conflated together. And the comments were, go back home, he should be tagged, flogged and deported. And all of those comments. And I thought, what does it take to be British? You are British until you say something that people see is un-British. And it's very easy to say something that people see is un-British when you're not talking about that at all. so it was a very difficult time and I think it has become as I said earlier more hostile the last few years and more complicated and I'm desperate for it not to go back to how it used to be Well we could talk for hours about why it's come to that but I'm sad to say that that's all we've got time for but thank you Kadiatu, Kadhi, Kani Mason for being this week's Difficult Woman.

30:21Thank you. Thank you for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. Just remember to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday afternoon. Bye.