Get Situated for Success (with Angela Duckworth)

0:00Angela Duckworth: And I want to like bring it back again to what I think was an insight for me personally, you know, not just as a psychologist, but as a fellow struggling human. There are people that when I'm with them, it does make doing hard things easier. Does it make it not hard at all to write a book or to like have an insight about psychology or write a paper or anything? But the people that you're with make it easier to do that hard thing. And I think that's the trick.

0:34Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical, where I am talking to the authors of the books that I love that have great meaning for me. And I'm thrilled to be talking with Angela Duckworth today. She has a new book, Situated. It is so great. We're going to talk about it today, and you all are all going to buy multiple copies of it because it's an awful book. You're going to pre-order. Yes. All right. Welcome, Angela. Thank you so much for being here.

1:07Angela Duckworth: Very good to be here. I'm very excited to be talking to you. You opened this book with a great and very visceral story about going snorkeling. Can you tell our listeners what happened when you took your mother snorkeling? It was just at the point in the pandemic where people were allowed to fly again, if you recall. And my husband, Jason, had a brilliant idea, which is that our family should travel from Philadelphia, where we'd been cooped up in our homes. I say plural because my mother-in-law came, and my mother came, and we should go to Miami. And we did. Seems like a great idea. It does. Like, who wouldn't want to be in sunny Miami?

1:52Angela Duckworth: me. It was December. All good. One day, we took a family snorkeling trip. And that included my mother, who at the time was, I think, 86. And we decided all to jump into the Atlantic Ocean. And it wasn't like club med snorkeling guy. And you were out to sea, kind of. Exactly. It was like 45 minutes from shore. So we were quite literally in the ocean, not just on the edge of it. And when I jumped in, I had jumped in just after my 86-year-old mother. I immediately thought, and I don't know what I wrote, Kim, but I don't think the editors let me write the exact... Say what you really thought. I mean, I was like, fuck.

2:40I mean, I was just like, fuck. How did we wind up here?

2:44Angela Duckworth: yeah and like this is bad i mean i really like in a flash knew that everybody was in trouble yeah that wasn't quite true because my able-bodied you know adult daughters and my husband like swum off to the reef where we were supposed to go snorkeling but my you know you know barely over 100 pound 90 well 86 year old mother was like just like taken by the current immediately Yeah. And so I went and tried to swim toward her. And, you know, what happened next was essentially that my mother inhaled water, went unconscious, was floating, unconscious in the ocean, still kept by the, you know, current, like going farther and farther behind the boat.

3:32Angela Duckworth: And I was there in the ocean trying to save her. That is the opening scene of situated. Yeah. So you were you were poorly situated, to put it mildly. You're disastrously situated. I was tragically situated. Yes. Near, near tragically, because, you know, there's a happy ending. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for. Yeah. Just in case. We don't need to leave people on the. Yeah. There's have to be a trigger warning with this one. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such a powerful metaphor for this whole book, because if you are disastrously situated, you cannot win. Exactly. And it doesn't matter how hard you try.

4:10Angela Duckworth: And I really feel like unless you're, I mean, there are other analogous situations, but when you are in the ocean and you're feeling the pull of the ocean current, like the Atlantic ocean wants you to go one way and you desperately want to go the other, I mean, you can try, but you won't win. And I think that's what I experienced. And so, yeah, I think it's a perfect metaphor. And I know you read the book, Kim, so I'll just say that you'll perhaps recall that this French philosopher whom I adore, Michel de Montaigne, you know, has this long essay in which there is this scene which very much parallels the opening scene of this book.

4:51Angela Duckworth: He says, you know, we do not go, we are carried, like a cork on the current and I do think the power of the situation is that strong whether we want to acknowledge that or or or whether we're we're happy to acknowledge that yeah I mean either way it's very powerful and part of the reason why this opening scene so moved me is that I feel like I am best situated when I am snorkeling like because so it took me a while of reading this to realize that this was a disaster. I was like so predisposed to think this is going to be a happy story that it took me a while to realize, oh my God, this was like...

5:34Yeah, it's a nightmare, not a dream.

5:36Angela Duckworth: Yeah. Wait, tell me about your snorkeling. This is an avocation I did not know about Kim Scott. This is my favorite thing to do. I feel like if I want... Who needs to go to outer space when you can just snorkel? This is... And I am, well, like I can snorkel for four hours And I can really I am not a strong person. I am not like super duper athletic. And I'm able to like enter this meditative state and this whole other world with the fish and the coral. And like sometimes I see a shark and that's exciting. I was snorkeling with an octopus recently. That was incredibly like it just it's a way of realizing that there's all these different kinds of intelligence that I don't even understand.

6:20Angela Duckworth: And it's, well, okay, Kim, first of all, you're not the only person in my life that, you know, feels like they are best situated when they are snorkeling or scuba diving. My literary agent, Richard Pine, that is his happy place. Yeah. Right. And the wind was so strong that day that it was like exactly the number of knots that you are allowed to be out in a boat. So it was a, it was a windy day and I think you would probably advise me that should I ever go snorkeling again I would I should have I should have a captain who keeps an eye on the snorkelers for yes yeah no what happened to you was a disaster like yes I too would not have been situated in that yeah wouldn't have mattered if it was Kim Scott although you probably would have been better in this situation maybe but if I was with yeah if I were with my mother and trying to keep her like I haven't always loved going snorkeling with my children when they were little because I was I was so focused on keeping them safe that I was not entering this meditative state.

7:25Angela Duckworth: Yes, yes, yes. Well, I may never experience what you've experienced for lots of reasons, but I do think it's a great metaphor. I don't even know if this French philosopher who lived on a farm in like Normandy, France or something like that, I don't even know had he ever been in the ocean or near the ocean, but the ocean is the perfect metaphor because you want the current to be going in the same direction as you. Yes, you cannot fight it. And I also think it's such a good metaphor because what is a great situation for one person is a disaster for another person. So there's not like one right. It's like which direction are you trying to go?

8:07Angela Duckworth: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. All right. I love it. So so you start with the three boxes and sort of rethink cognitive behavioral therapy. It's not all about your thoughts. It's also about your situation. So explain the three boxes. And I've thought about this every day since I read this. So thank you. I was not the original author of this very powerful idea. It's so simple, but it explains so much. So I first of all want to give credit to its original author, who is James Gross, the Stanford psychologist who for his whole life, and his career anyway, has studied emotion and emotion regulation.

8:54Angela Duckworth: And he developed a framework for understanding how emotions come to be and how we regulate our emotions, whether they be anxiety, fear, happiness, and so forth. And then together, we met each other now like 15 years ago, like we expanded it to really explain all of human behavior. And I know that seems grand, and it is grand. But let me make the case. It is grand. All of human behavior with three boxes and two arrows. So if you draw three boxes on a piece of paper and you connect those three boxes with two arrows, you have box one, box two, and box three. And I'm going to explain box three first, which kind of goes in reverse order.

9:36Angela Duckworth: But on the far right side of your piece of paper, you have box three, and I'm going to label that as behavior. Like any, did I, you know, reach for the water bottle? Did I slam on the brakes? Did I laugh? So I'm going to try to explain all of the behaviors that we do. And very broadly, like all of our thoughts and feelings do. So anything that we do is a function of the second box, which is what we think. So box three is your behavior. Box two are your thoughts. And this is really the bedrock of modern psychotherapy, that when you think a certain thing, it will make you feel and do the appropriate action.

10:22Angela Duckworth: So for example, if you go to a therapist and you say, I'm very anxious, I'm worrying all the time, and it's really interfering with my sleep, with my social life, and even with my work, You know, you might be focused on how you feel, which is box three, or maybe what you do, like avoiding going out. But the therapist, a modern psychotherapist trained in the cognitive tradition will say, you know, Angela, let's talk about the thoughts that immediately precede this response. Like maybe you think nobody likes me. Maybe you think I'm not good enough. Maybe you think something terrible is about to happen.

11:01Angela Duckworth: And a lot of therapy, very usefully, basically tries you to update and to correct maladaptive, inaccurate thoughts. Is it true that nobody likes you, Angela? Let's interrogate that. But there's another box before box two, and that is what this book is about. It's the situation, the objective circumstances in which you find yourself. Who are you sitting next to, standing next to, physically? where are you, what zip code are you in, and really even what are the objects within reach and view. Everything in your physical and social situation is going to influence what you think. Those thoughts like, gosh, you know, nobody likes me.

11:45Angela Duckworth: I'm like a complete disaster. Are you more likely to have those thoughts around certain people and in certain places where your eye catches certain things or less likely. And just to use an example, when I go to New York, which I love, New York City is to me like the most amazing place. I find myself actually thinking different things that I think in Philadelphia. I often think like, wow, that's the perfect blouse. And like, oh my gosh, that painting I just passed by while I was walking down the street is, was that a Rothko? Like, holy smokes, that gallery has Rothko's. And it makes me think thoughts that are often comparative.

12:28Angela Duckworth: Often I find my own life lacking. Like, well, this blouse actually isn't, this is, what am I even wearing? Like, I look terrible. Like, I didn't have the perfect chicken salad sandwich. Like, look at the chicken salad sandwiches in the window. And that thought, those thoughts lead me to certain responses. And that is the three boxes model. That the objective situation in which you find yourself changes your thoughts. Your thoughts lead to your responses. It's so simple. It's almost like, yeah, like how else could that be? And yet I think we don't take advantage of that because then if you don't like what's happening in box three, if you're like, I wish I didn't act this way.

13:09Angela Duckworth: I wish I didn't feel this way rather than saying like, I'm not going to act that way. And I'm not going to feel, I'm not going to be anxious anymore. I don't want to be anxious, Angela anymore. I refuse to be. Well, instead of saying that's what I'm going to do, and even like, oh, I'm going to think more optimistically. Like, I'm going to put myself into situations, in places and with people where I have different thoughts. Like, I notice that when I'm with my friend Tina, this is a true example for me. When I'm with my friend Tina, there's something about her, like, unconditional affection and her, like, relentless positivity that, like, I feel very safe.

13:46Angela Duckworth: I feel great. And that leads me to different, you know, thoughts and lead me to different responses. Right. So you want to act on the situation, change your situation, change your life. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, when you're with Angela, you don't feel bad about your shirt. When you're walking down Madison Avenue, you're likely to feel bad. At least I am. Yes. Yes. Yes. And for me, it would be like when I'm with Tina in her house in San Mateo, I didn't even think about my shirt. Yeah. And it's shortcomings. and when I'm walking down Madison Avenue by myself, I do. And so I can choose to walk down Madison Avenue or I can choose to hang out with Tina.

14:26Angela Duckworth: But those are two different situations and they will change me. Yeah. So it's so much easier to change your external – well, it's not always easier. It's not always easy, but – Yeah. If you can change your external environment, then you're less likely to have to wrestle with your thoughts because wrestling with your thoughts is exhausting. I mean, let's face it, changing your thinking is really tiring. And I think, Kim, you know, and I don't want to discredit, undermine, or even contradict the many books that are about changing your thoughts. You know, don't believe your thoughts. You know, like change your mindset and so forth.

15:08Angela Duckworth: I agree that that's an important part of psychological wisdom, right, is to notice when your thoughts are not serving you to notice when they're not accurate. And yet I feel like the power move is to put yourself in situations where the thoughts that you want to have come to you unbidden. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And figuring out that balance because you do need to do, I mean, I'll give you a silly example, but my husband has bad teeth and he sometimes slurps when he eats. And the question is, is it easier for me to control my thoughts about the annoyance of the slurping or is it easier for him to change his teeth.

15:46It's harder for him to change his teeth. So I have to change my teeth.

15:50Angela Duckworth: So you have to reframe it. Do you have a reframing that is working for you? Yeah. I mean, I love this man and I don't want him to get oral surgery, you know, so we can slurp, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree. I don't want to say like, nobody should go to cognitive therapy. You know, I think people should go to cognitive therapy. But as you know, Kim, When you go to a therapist, they will usually embrace, you know, these days, not just the cognitive elements of like working on your box two thoughts to change your box three responses. So very often they will ask you about your box one situation.

16:30Yes.

16:31Angela Duckworth: So, you know, but like, you know, if you overeat, they might ask you not just like, how do you think about food? What are the thoughts that you have right before you, you know, reach for something that you're going to regret eating? but they might ask you like tell me about your kitchen like tell me about your routine what's in your freezer like um what are things that you could do like you know putting sneakers by the door so you could take a walk when you're anxious as opposed to like reaching for snack food so so I think a modern psychotherapist who has anything like a holistic view will talk about your box two thoughts and talk about your box one situation right so I'm just gonna I'm gonna hold up this in the book because it's so simple and so powerful.

17:13And figure out, when do you need to change your situation? When do you need to change your thoughts? And when do you just have to live with the situation that emerges from the combination of those two things?

17:25Angela Duckworth: Yeah, and I want to say that when I met James Gross, again, the original author of this idea, and when we write about it in academic papers, there are a few more complications and nuances, and we break down the thoughts box into like attention and appraisal and things I didn't think were necessary in this treatment. I met him because we both studied self-control and he was studying self-control of emotion. I was studying self-control with like, you know, things like procrastinating on important tasks or studying or exercising. And one of the reasons why I was so drawn to this like beautifully simple model that explains, you know, the blueprint for human behavior is that so often people just work on box three.

18:10Angela Duckworth: They're like, I'm not going to eat. I'm going to like not eat. I'm going to not procrastinate. I'm going to not scroll, you know, past 10 PM. I'm going to wake up at 6 AM and go for a run. And they're really essentially using willpower, which is directly forcing yourself to do what you think is best at box three. And so I just want to say that it is a beautiful framework. It's incredibly simple. And it helps you realize that if you can change your life, not at the last possible minute when you're like experiencing the urge to do something and you're going to like suppress it. Like, yeah, it's just such a, uh, it's just a much more graceful, kind gentle you know joyous way to live yeah because with willpower you're almost doomed to fail and then to beat yourself up for having failed and that puts you in a doom loop at least me yes I I yeah by the way do you have any things that you're like working on like are you like oh I always do this and I'm working on it or are you kind of feeling like you've achieved oh no I've got a lot of things I'm working on.

19:19Top three are probably like keeping my phone out of my environment, getting myself situated around my phone. Because you're on it too much? Yeah, I'm on it too much. I toggle between not drinking at all and drinking too much. So I struggle with alcohol for sure. and um now i think ai is really very uh addictive and so like not going down because it's addictive like how is it addictive i think that you become almost bionic when you're used like you can do so much more and so much less time and then it becomes hard to stop working uh or even Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:08Angela Duckworth: So like you'll be engaged with Claude and you'll be like, oh my gosh, I have to, whatever, go to dinner or something? Yeah, I'm using Rebel Mindstone. It's a company called Mindstone and they have this thing called Rebel. And it's, I love it. I love, I love my Rebel. But that's kind of a problem. Yeah. Well, yeah, like when you observe, you know, fill in the blank behavior because other people might be like, I don't know what she's talking about, but I do know what she's talking about with the phone. But like just any of us can introspect and think, well, you know, very few people, maybe nobody with any kind of self-awareness, like doesn't have something that they wouldn't want to change at box three.

20:46Angela Duckworth: You know, like I wish I talked to my mother more. I wish I were a little more present when I'm, you know, with friends. I mean, whatever it is, you can use this framework. I mean, you do have the option to, you know, force yourself to be more mindful with your friends or not use rebel. Although you're going to fail, I would say. Exactly. You're trying to force yourself. Like getting into a fight with yourself, you always lose. Yes. Yes, exactly. I find it really interesting. And I don't know that I've been studying self-control since my earliest days of graduate school. I started out studying self-control and grit and, you know, close cousins.

21:25Angela Duckworth: But self-control is really, as scientists define it, the choice of one option that is enduringly valued, you know, health, learning, harmony, family, over an inferior option like pleasure, for example, that is nevertheless, that inferior option is like nevertheless more immediately alluring. you're like, of course I would choose family over pleasure, except for, oh, what's this next thing in my feed, right? So I do think that willpower, I agree with you. One thing that I've never figured out, I mean, I've been studying this forever, is why we are so persistently relying on willpower. So in research that I talk about in the book and certainly have done over the years, is just always a surprise to me how people will even tell you that willpower is ineffective.

22:21Angela Duckworth: And yet when you ask them what they do, like, so what do you do to exercise? Like, what do you do to stay off your phone? Like, what do you do to like - Self-flagellation. They just are like, oh, willpower. Exactly. I just force myself, you know? Yeah. So I've never quite figured out why it is that we rely on this. I have some ideas. But anyway, I think it's interesting, a little mystery about human nature. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's some aspect of, I don't know, holier than thou or something. Yeah, what do you think, Kim? Like, why do you think it is that we flagellate ourselves when it's sort of kind of obvious that that's, you know, not the smartest thing to do?

22:59I think that it is, it's like a battle for power and control, which is always a bad battle. So I want to control myself, you know. And there's something that feels like you should be able to control yourself. We should all over ourselves. I don't know. I mean, I haven't. I've only been on the receiving end. I haven't studied this per se. But that's for me is I should all over myself. It's not a. Yeah.

23:28Angela Duckworth: Yeah. So then you're like, because, you know, like the idea that you wouldn't be able to just like stop eating the ice cream or like put the phone down or like, well, what kind of person would I be? if I can't do that. Yeah, it feels almost like it goes back to potty training. Maybe it feels like incontinence. Oh, yes. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's this very old idea in psychology, which is called effectance motivation. And I won't expect you to have heard of it, because it's like buried in books that are not read anymore. But this now goes back like, you know, well over 50 years, maybe over 70 years.

24:07But effectance motivation is the notion that we

24:12Angela Duckworth: have a drive as humans to be the cause of effects. Like it gives us some inherent pleasure. You know, imagine, like imagine you're playing a video game and you know, you move the joystick to the left and like the little, you know, avatar or whatever moves to the left. You make something happen. You made something happen and regardless whether you got points or shot down the target or whatever, like moving to the left oh it went to the left moving to the right and it's it's in a way the opposite of of helplessness right the opposite and and i do think there's something uh intrinsically rewarding about control so the idea that we cannot control our appetites our urges you know like you don't want to you don't want to like so so we like the idea of having control we don't want to think of ourselves as not having control yeah yeah yeah it's almost like free will kind of thing.

25:02Angela Duckworth: It is very much like that. And I just want to make the sobering argument that we are less in control of ourselves than we think. We are so reactive. And I know, Kim, you're, you know, you asked me before we started recording, like, where are you? And I'm like, oh, I'm kind of like hiding out in my friend's workspace. And like, it's not where I usually work. And that's all true. Here's just a trivial but very immediate example for me. When I got to this office, I was like, oh, they have like vats of gum and like that kind of milk that has extra protein. I mean, literally cases and cases. I am surrounded in 270 degrees with like gum and protein milk.

25:50Angela Duckworth: And at first I was like making jokes about it. And we're like, oh, look at all this gum and like, look at all this protein milk and I kid you not but by day two we were just chewing gum all day which we have been right and drinking protein milk I'm like yep you know so so how much free will like how much control do I really have or am I just gonna mull to this situation because that is the power of this that it is the ocean and I'm the swimmer yes and you can choose a better situation so you have an excellent framework in your book for what kind of situation, in generally, writ large, do we want to be in.

26:31I'm going to hold up this page, too. You want to seek out situations that challenge you, but that also support you. You don't want only one or the other. And you know me, I love a good two-by-two.

26:44Angela Duckworth: Yes, and it's your two-by-two. Don't you think it's basically the radical candor two by two? So it's very interesting. You put the axes, the different ones horizontally and vertically than I did. Which was arbitrary for me, by the way. There's to me nothing deep. Sorry, I'm going to show something that I think will be fun for both of us. And that explains at least to me why I put the axes the way I did and why you put the axes the way that you did. So for those of you who are listening and not watching, I want to paint a picture for you of the radical candor two by two. On the vertical axis is care personally, and on the horizontal axis is challenge directly.

27:32When you are caring and challenging at the same time, you get radical candor. When you're caring but you're not challenging, you get ruinous sympathy. You're giving ruinous sympathy, rather. when you challenge but you forget to show you care. I call that obnoxious aggression. And when you're neither caring nor challenging, that's manipulative insincerity. I think what I was, the reason why I put care personally first is that I was thinking about what managers need to give. And I think that managers sort of know they're supposed to challenge, but often they forget to care personally. And to me, the vertical axis is the one you see the first.

28:12So care personally.

28:14Angela Duckworth: Oh, interesting. Yeah. That was very deep. I'd have to go to psychoanalysis to figure out like whether my axes were like, you know, in the way they were for some subconscious reason. But I do want to say that the top right quadrant is where you want to be, which is high challenge, high support. Yes. And I do think there probably are like more common mistakes, right? And I guess I would leave it to you as to like, you know, what do, you know, people, you know, fall into? I think you've argued that at least from the manager's perspective, they fall into the care but not challenging, right? Ruinous empathy.

28:56Exactly. Exactly. And I think that what – I'm going to flip the axes now. This is your two by two. Wow, this is amazing.

29:05Angela Duckworth: The magic of – The magic. Yeah, the magic. Yeah, it's very graphical. So here is your two by two, Angela. Challenge is on the vertical axis. Support is on the horizontal axis. And when you seek out both challenge and support, you're going to grow. You're going to get growth. If you seek out support, but you forget to look to be challenged, you're going to wind up with complacency as part of your day-to-day. If you're seeking out challenge, but you forget to look for support from the people around you, you're going to wind up burning out. And if you're not looking for either challenge or support, you're going to wind up feeling apathetic.

29:45So challenge and support. You get growth when you get both challenge and support. So I think you're focused on what should you seek out when you're trying to get situated. You should seek out both. And I think often, especially early in your career, the instinct is to look for support before you look for being challenged. The instinct is to take the class pass fail rather than take it graded.

30:11Angela Duckworth: Yeah, or to not ask for negative feedback or critical feedback or whatever you want to frame it as. Yeah. I think that's right. Right. So that would be similar to, you know, if managers fall into the trap of ruinous empathy, then, you know, workers like fall into the trap of like essentially what I would say is complacency. But basically taking this easy, you know, friction free, critical, you know, free criticism free path. I think that's true. I think it's true of me as well. Like I was just speaking to a new editor because I'm going to take on some writing. Trust me, it's not a book, but like take on some writing projects that are not a book.

30:54Angela Duckworth: And I said at the end of the conversation, I was like, look, I hope you will give me feedback on anything big or small that I can do to be easier to work with. I kind of stole that from you, Kim. Yeah. I was like, if there's anything that I can do that would make it easier for me. and I was like, by the way, I'm sure I'll be defensive at first, but I really do want to get better and better at working together. And that was conversation one. But I only said that because at the age of 56, I'm still feeling this pull to the quadrant where it's like, everything's great, Angela, amazing. Have a good day.

31:31Yeah, yeah. You and me both. That's why I wrote the book. I fall prey to the gravitational pull of ruinous sympathy. I you know which is kind of a version another way of saying it's like false harmony like I want I don't I don't want to have I don't want to give criticism I don't want to have a disagreement I don't want to say no I don't want to do any of those things and yet my relationships are worse and my work is worse if I fail to to do those things and to create to help the people around me get situated so that they can do them so that they can also say no to me criticize me disagree

32:10Angela Duckworth: with me yeah and I'm not going to write another book but if I did I really thought about this I think so many of the problems of humanity at the level of the individual and at the level of society for relationships have the following form that what you're doing makes you feel good now but is not the best thing for you in the long run. And I definitely think that about criticism. It's like, who would want to be like, you know, like assaulted with, you know, one, two or three things that I could do differently and better. That makes me feel terrible. But, but it is better for you in the long run.

32:44Angela Duckworth: You know, who wants to have an honest conversation with their spouse about like, well, it's definitely better in the long run. And, and I really think that like, when it comes to like policy issues, legislation, who we elect for our leaders, you know, how we handle criticism at work, what we eat, how we spend time at 10 o 'clock at night. It's a really, I think, increasingly challenging dilemma that you cannot do the thing that's best for you in the long run and also feel the most fun, relaxed, and carefree in the moment. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. So much of what you talk about in the book is being willing to push through those awkward moments, those uncomfortable moments in the service of your future self.

33:32And your future self needs growth, needs some growth, needs to get better at something.

33:38Angela Duckworth: And I want to bring it back again to what I think was an insight for me personally, not just as a psychologist but as a fellow struggling human. There are people that when I'm with them, it does make doing hard things easier. Does it make it not hard at all to write a book or to have an insight about psychology or write a paper or anything? But the people that you're with make it easier to do that hard thing. And I think that's the trick. Okay, well, maybe if you get situated, at least that very, very hard thing will be easier. I know you're supposed to talk to me about my book, but what is your next book about?

34:19It's a science fiction book. It's about the class of 2020 having their 50th high school reunion. So it's 2070, and everybody's a little more optimistic then than they are now. I'm not saying we've solved all the world's problems. But it's – and it's actually – it leads me to the next part of your book, because there's a central question about the story between the grandfather and his grandson. The grandfather says to his grandson, a fight is going on inside me between two wolves. One is evil. He is anger, greed, arrogance. The other is good. He is joy, peace, love, compassion. And the same fight is going inside you, the grandfather tells his grandson, and is going inside every other person, too.

35:08The grandson asks his grandfather, which wolf will win? And the grandfather answers, the one you feed. I've told this story every time I read this I don't know how I've gotten to age 59 and never heard this before It's a good one It's a great story And the question is how do you feed your good wolf And also if you happen to be a manager How do you create an environment that feeds everybody's good wolf Including your own And I think there's also a broader question Not only about management systems but about economic systems Like right now, I would say our economic system is feeding our bad wolf.

35:50And not that the people who are winning are bad wolves. They have good wolves too, you know, but it's their bad wolves that we are collectively feeding.

35:59Angela Duckworth: Like inside them, right? Yes. Like it's like the incentive system and structures. Can you, I do not disagree, but like in what way specifically is the situation in which we find ourselves like bringing out our bad wolf? So, for example, I think that kind of since the 70s, we have had sort of a rich-get-richer algorithm in our economy. And so the rich have been getting richer, the poor have been getting poorer, the middle class has been getting smaller. And now we're at this almost absurd level of wealth disparity in our society. Like we're feeding greed. Greed is not good. I'm just going to say that.

36:43Angela Duckworth: Yes, I'm going to agree with you that greed is not good. You know, disparities are not good. And also there's a lot of social science research showing that, you know, the more inequality, like the mean could be the same, right? Like the average amount of wealth could be the same. But controlling for that, right? Like all things being equal, the more, you know, there are haves and have nots, the worse off everyone is, right? And you're making the point that it's not just at the low end, but at the high end. I am going to go on the record as agreeing with you. Excellent. There's a great book about this called The Some of Us by Heather McGee about how it's a wonderful book.

37:23But it's about this very thing. An economy grows better when everybody's participating in it. When we exclude 90 % of the people from our economy, our economy is going to shrink. So you were talking in another podcast I heard about sort of how much CEOs are paid. And it's, you know, it used to be 30 times more, and now it's 300 times more, whatever the number is. Yeah, some factor. Yeah. And you would think that, well, you know, usually the justification for that is, well, these CEOs, they're creating value, they're helping the economy grow. But the economy was growing much faster when it was 30 to 1 than that.

38:04Angela Duckworth: Yeah, I must have been referring to the work of Mike Norton, the Harvard Business School professor who's done a lot of work on like CEO payment in the U.S. compared to CEO payment in Norway or Japan. And it is really interesting. I kind of feel like my job is, my vocation is being like Julia Child for psychology. It's like, hey, everybody should know how to like bone a chicken unless you're vegan. I guess you don't have to know about that. But like Mike Norton, everybody should know about Mike Norton at Harvard Business School. I do think that in general, social science is on your side, Kim, with this thesis.

38:46Angela Duckworth: And, you know, one of the things I really struggled with when writing the book was, like you're talking about writing a third book, you know, science fiction novel set in the future. Obviously, I think this is some kind of commentary on the situation we're in, right, that provokes the thesis, that makes you want to establish a certain kind of narrative. You could ask the question like, okay, you may think that there are things about the macro situation, the world in which we're in, in this time in history, that are beyond your control. So isn't that a depressing thing to write about, like the situation?

39:20Angela Duckworth: Because think of all the things that you can't change. Like Kim Scott, as powerful as Kim Scott is, and as amazing as Radical Candor is, it's not like you're going to change CEO payment in the United States. And I just think that, like, first I want to just say, like, that is a fair critique, if you will, of this book. I mean, it has a really, like, self-help subtitle, like, find the people and places that bring out your best. And I think it's a reasonable critique to say, like, well, you aren't able to change everything around you. Correct. And you can change a lot. I mean, you talk about you can pick your peers.

39:57You know, you can choose your friends. You can choose your mentors. you talk a lot about situational agency, you can choose where you live. And all of these things are going to have a huge impact. And I think if more people collectively realize they have the agency to leave one job and choose another, where they're going to, you tell a great story about Wegmans, for example, then if we all collectively assume our agency and go to better situations.

40:29Angela Duckworth: it is a version of like which wolf do you feed right it's like well if i you know if we all like leave you know oppressive situations because like you know we are we find those power dynamics unacceptable then we will somehow feed the good wolf and in that same way like starve the bad wolf and you know you mentioned Wegmans i just had to smile because i love Wegmans so much and i know that not everyone lives near a Wegmans supermarket but what a beautiful world it would be if everyone could buy like the marathon bread at Wegmans, which is my personal favorite. It has like lots of seeds in it. And when I wrote about it, it was partly because my mom, who did live and now she's 91 and very healthy.

41:13Angela Duckworth: So she miraculously, you know, revived in the emergency room and CPR and all that good stuff. and so she's a total wag maniac as the self-described lovers of wagmans are and like you go to that supermarket and like I defy you to be like unhappy it's like you walk in and one's like hello can I help you and then the food is beautiful and it's healthy and it's delicious and you know it's reasonably priced and then you just like get helped and smiled at by like 10 people and then you leave. And yeah, it's an amazing place. And I wrote about it not only because my mom was such a devotee when we had her 90th birthday, like the birthday cake had to be from Wegmans.

41:59Angela Duckworth: So we are Wegmans all the way as a family. But I wrote about it because I started first casually and then more formally interviewing people who had worked there and had worked at multiple places. So I tried to interview people who had worked at Wegmans, but they had other their jobs. You know, some of these people had been in restaurants and these people had been in other supermarkets. And by the way, these are not the most privileged people, Kim. These are not people who are like hopscotching from like McKinsey to Bain or from one investment bank to another. And these stories, which often ended in tears of, yes, gratitude, poignant, kind of like it changed my life.

42:37Angela Duckworth: Best decision I ever made other than marrying my spouse. It can change your life to change your situation, even if you're not like, oh, with this resume, I could go anywhere. Many of the people I talked to had very few choices, but they did have some choice. And yes, they could work at this supermarket or that supermarket, each of which were in commuting distance of their home. And I do think those moves that you can make in some cases, and of course, you can always think of cases that you can't. But like when you can make a move for the better, what holds us back often isn't finance. It isn't the laws of physics.

43:17Angela Duckworth: It's our own psychological inertia to cling to what we already have, status quo bias, to use the jargon of social science. You know, there is a strong bias to stick with the status quo. And I don't know, I'd like to nudge people in the direction of movement when the movement is something you recognize as potentially better for you. Yeah, you tell such a great story about a Wegmans employee who decided to work there. He was working at a grocery store down the street, and then he interviewed at Wegmans, and somebody from Wegmans came in and said hi to him and knew his name, and he was like, my own boss here doesn't know my name.

43:56I'm going to take this job if I get it. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Yeah, he was getting situated because he knew he was in a place that was high support and also was going to challenge him to do better work.

44:10Angela Duckworth: That manager who manages a Wegmans near me, it's in Malvern, Pennsylvania, and his name is Tim Risser, and that interview ended with some emotion. And, you know, we're so influenced by these situations, and he did work up the courage to leave a supermarket where he had been for many years. was very comfortable for him. And he said in that conversation that we had, you know, I have two daughters and I know what it means to resist the uncertainty of a move. You know, he's like, I know that uncertainty is very uncomfortable for any of us. Maybe I should stick with what I've got. Right. Cause who knows, you know, like what will it be like to work at Wegmans for these other people?

44:56Angela Duckworth: And that, and that he was so glad that he did and that he's trying to teach his daughters that. And I think he's so right. I have time and again in my own life resisted change. I mean, I also say in the book, and it's true, that I was in some academic procession and I'm in line after Johnny Maida, who's like a designer and a lot more comfortable with change. I actually think he's actually quite well known right in the tech world. Yeah, he is. He and I have done - What's he well known for? He design and also he's interestingly tried, worked very hard to design some online Zoom situations that have the feel of an in-person situation.

45:44Oh, interesting. He's known for a million things. He's a brilliant designer.

45:48Angela Duckworth: I mean, I knew a little bit because, of course, they're like reading his bio at this like ceremony. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. But his question to me was, you know, I was like, hi, I'm Angela. What do you do? I'm a psychologist. And then I think I must have shared with him that at that time, and it's years ago, I was like, you know, I wonder whether I should stay where I am because I don't feel necessarily like I'm growing like I did at the early part of my career. And he suggested that I move. And, like, before he could finish his question, I interrupted him. Like, I can't. Nope.

46:26nope can't change nope not possible like it's so reflexive like oh my mother-in-law lives here

46:31Angela Duckworth: nope my mother lives here my husband's you know got it he's in real estate like isn't it interesting how resistant we are to even imagining what it would be to change our situation I think that's so interesting and that's why I want to write this this science fiction novel because I want to imagine. Even if I can't actually create the better world, I can't change CEO pay, I can imagine what it would be like if we did, and maybe that spurs action. My PhD advisor, Marty Seligman, has a book that's out September 8th, and Marty Seligman is well known for his work on optimism and its opposite, which is helplessness.

47:14Angela Duckworth: And now Marty's 83, and he's written a book called Agency, and he wants to say, in support, by the way, of what you're talking about, about like elaborating a possibility that doesn't yet exist, but just in the elaboration makes it more likely that it will exist. He wants to say that imagination, and particularly imagining possible futures, which it seems like only human beings can do, like it doesn't seem like animals are very good at this, we can't know for sure, but it does seem like Homo sapiens is especially good at imagining possible futures. He wants to say that is one of the most important forms of human agency that there is and one of the great drivers of progress in civilization.

47:58Angela Duckworth: So I recommend that book to you and your listeners. I'm excited. Okay. It's really cool. It's very cool. I'm excited to read it. September 8th. Yes. All right. So I want to end and I want you to tell readers what they can do, what's the one thing they can do to get situated? All right, I'm going to give you the first thing you should do, because it's the easiest thing that you can do, the most immediate, and there will be no contradictions like, I can't, I can't, I can't. And that is to curate your personal space. It doesn't require you switching jobs or switching zip codes. It doesn't require that you switch out your friend group or, you know, find a mentor.

48:43Angela Duckworth: your personal space is that which is within sight and reach and that is generally what is within three feet right yes three feet in each direction i mean unless you have really long arms yeah um but but why is important that those objects i mean you can really do it right now like audit your personal space i have often interviewed people and they're like oh yeah i've thrown my phone across the room it's this exact phrase i've thrown my you know why because to get something you have thrown more than three feet away through requires you to get up and you know what people people don't like to do.

49:14Angela Duckworth: They don't like to get up. So, you know, if you want to eat more junk food, no problem. Put it within three feet of you. If you want to eat less, you know, put it with, you know, not within three feet of you and ideally not in sight. So really curating your personal space, put in your personal space, what you want to do more and take out of your personal space, what you want to do less. Literally, you can do that right now. You can audit your personal space and you can change your personal space and you don't have to be rich. Uh, you don't have to be privileged. You don't have to be super educated.

49:47Angela Duckworth: You just have to do it. Um, and the last thing I'll say is I've noticed, and I'm not going to get a tattoo, but I have noticed that many people will get tattoos because that is what definitely within your personal space. Cause it's on your body and they will do, um, you know, whatever it is that they want to be reminded of, you know, like a certain phrase, a certain symbol. And I think that is a way of getting situated. Like people also that I have studied as, you know, cause I study world-class performers. Oh my gosh, they love quotes. They love having them engraved in wood and in brass and in pewter.

50:25Angela Duckworth: You know, they love having them hang on the wall or, you know, otherwise in their personal space, there's a last thing I'll say is there's a pastor and I guess he's a chaplain for Penn. His name is Chaz Howard. And I just love him to death. And he very often comes to my class to speak as you have as well, Kim. And he tells me that, you know, as an academic and as a chaplain, he's got bookshelves, you know, just like you do. He's very intentionally put at eye level, the spines of the books that he just wants his eyes to alight on for a microsecond before he sits down at his desk and does whatever so that every day he sees those words and he sits down.

51:05Angela Duckworth: And he won't see, as often, the books at the bottom of the shelf. And it's those moves like, okay, great, that I can do. Is it the only thing I want you to do? No, but it is the first thing I want you to do. I love that. Everybody go do that immediately. I hereby commit. I'm keeping my phone somewhere else. I'm going to ask you about that, Kim. I'm your accountability partner. Well, that's the peer. You can choose your peers. Yes. Ask me. We are friends. Ask me a week if I am better about that. Yes. All right. Thank you so much, Angela. Everybody, get a copy, pre-order, situated. What's the date it's out?

51:43Angela Duckworth: September 1st. September 1st. All right. Excellent. Thank you so much, Angela. Thank you, Kim.

51:53This podcast is based on the book Radical Candor. Be a kick-ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott.

51:59Angela Duckworth: The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmarker. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the Company, and visit us on RadicalCandor.com.