Bonus: Stephen Graham and Erin Doherty on Adolescence and male rage

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Amol here with something for your weekend because on the episode we published earlier this week, we talked a lot about the issues that are raised in the massive hit Netflix series, Adolescence. The crisis of masculinity amongst boys and the role that social media, pornography and misogynistic influences play in shaping their views of what it means to be a man today. If you haven't listened to that podcast yet, please do give it a listen after this one because it's such an interesting and illuminating conversation and we have had a really superb response.

1:20Adolescence is a huge global hit, but before it triggered this conversation we're now having about young men, I actually spoke to two of the stars of that drama at length. They are Stephen Graham, who co-created the series and plays the father of the boy accused of murdering a girl from his school, and Erin Doherty, who plays a child psychologist in episode 3. So we thought it was worth bringing you the full conversation that I had with Stephen and Erin last week. Let's do it!

2:00Stephen, Aaron, very nice to see you guys. Thanks for having us. I've watched one and a half episodes of this astonishing programme. As a father of four, I found it extremely disturbing and topical and necessary. Why did you want to make, Stephen, let's start with you, why did you want to make a programme about what seems to me, above all, just about male rage? What happened was we got approached, me and Phil got approached to, we did the one shot sequence with a film called boiling point which which went really well and because of the success director I should say yeah Phil Barantini me one of me busy mates as well as you is the director that all come about because he wanted to be a director so we made the short as a favor and in the next minute you know he's me and Aaron chatting to you about waiting it say this again what came about he wanted to be he said he got red Stephen which is not something you're the guy.

2:55No, because he phoned me up and he was like, did you know this thing? Yeah, he phoned me about it. Yeah, because he phoned me up and he was like, I really want to be a director. And I was like, all right, it's fine. And he was like, I've got this little short. Will you do it? And I was like, no. And he was like, why not? And I went, well, go and make that one. Let me have a look at it and then we'll see where we go the next one. And he was like, but there's a great little part in it. I went, I'm not doing it. Go and make it. So we went away and he made it and it was a really nice little film. and then he said I've got this idea for a short a 20 minute short, I've met this wonderful fella, this lovely young lad a D.O.P, Matt and Matt's got this idea about shooting it all in one shot in 20 minutes and I was like that sounds good and he said yeah it's about a chef and it's him at work and the ups and downs of his life and stuff like that and Phil used to be a chef, he was an actor first and then he couldn't get no work for a long time so we went and became a chef so we knew that whole life and then the next minute I went yeah all right and he went I'll we'll need five days to shoot it I said I'll give you three and he's like okay so then we put it together and you know you drive a hard bargain as a mate I tell you if you were my mate I'll tell you I'd be like come on man we're okay all right well I'll finish my sentence before you interrupt because what happens then is fast forward a couple of years down the line when I took the short straight away I took the short into my agent and I said look have a look at this I I think it's great.

4:18Could you pass it about, please, Jane, and see if there's anyone in the office that would like it? And within two days, he's in the office meeting Jago, who's now his agent, and he's become a director. So Jago says, why don't you turn it into a feature? Cut to, anyway, we do that, a couple of years down the line. We're all sat in the front row at the BAFTAs. it's nominated for best British film I'm up for best actor with Leonardo DiCaprio and Will Smith and Benedict Cumberbatch and Phil's up for best up and coming director best British director so it just shows you, do you know what I mean you do a favour for a mate every now and again and you never know what can happen I tell you what, you really came through for your mate there after the whole negotiation about three days, five days the most precious thing we have is time that's absolutely right and it's an equal opportunities gift as Steve Jobs said where did the idea for this particular programme come from?

5:19Well we got approached to do it as a series they wanted us to do the kind of one shot sequences as a series and that was from Plan B who got in touch with Phil and said look we really want to work with you and Stephen so then I just had this idea because I read in the paper that a young boy had stabbed a young girl to death and then a few months later on the news actually it was there was a a story about a young boy stabbing a young girl to death. And it was in a completely different part of the country. And if I'm really honest with you, and I've said this before, it really hurt my heart. And I just kind of thought, I can't fathom me.

6:01And I just kind of thought, what's happening today in society with a young boy stabbing a young girl to death? Do you know what I mean? And it was something that I wanted to look at and something that we wanted to try and raise a bit of awareness to. And I just had this idea for these four episodes. And I knew that that was the story I wanted to tell. And again, you know, there was since then, I think, well, there's been about four or five, maybe even six incidences of teenagers killing teenagers. But predominantly I wanted this, you know, this, it's not a science fiction film set in Mars, as I've said before.

6:34Do you know what I mean? We're not wrong with science fiction films set in Mars, but this is based on truth. And this is based on elements of truth, what's happening today in our society. But Erin, there's been a lot of talk and a lot of concern about the idea of toxic masculinity in the last few years. Male rage is something that's been around in societies since as long as societies have been around. What's different about male rage now, do you think? Because it comes through in the episodes I've seen. I mean, I think, well, again, what we explore in this show is like how it links with social media and kind of not really knowing where to find your tribe.

7:11and I was speaking to Jack Thorne, the brilliant writer, co-writer, and he was like, it was scary how it was so easy to see the logic behind these groups that are forming that absolutely end up devastating lives. But what he kind of found through his deep dive into that world was it's easier than you think to want to become a part of a tribe. And I feel like it's the rage is looking for a home and social media is kind of opening up those doors. You're talking about when you say deep dive, you're talking about worlds like what we call incels, which is involuntary celibate people. Yeah. Basically young men or young boys who celebrate without wanting to be.

7:58When you do dive into that world, the online world comes through this program. It's an absolutely terrifying place where people can have, you know, very, very dark stuff reflected back to them. And something about seeing it on the internet makes you feel like it's the whole of the world. It's sort of rather than being abnormal, it becomes very quickly normalized, doesn't it? Yeah, which is really frightening. I've always been quite overwhelmed at the power that social media holds. And yeah, this show definitely shines a light on that, particularly for our younger generation. So, yeah, I feel like it's a vital piece of art.

8:34but hopefully it really does jump through the screens and allows us to open up those doors and have those conversations. It definitely does do that, partly because of how it's shot. Stephen, people will remember in the 1990s, there was a very, very notorious killing of a boy called James Bolger and that was by two other young boys. And there was a feeling like, how could this happen in a civilised society? So this stuff has been around for a while, but it seems like something is fundamentally different these days, which is that boys who have this tendency towards an interest in violence can very quickly, as Erin's saying, find groups online which kind of seem to reward them for that interest and make them feel like it's something worth pursuing.

9:13The rationalisation of it, I think, is huge. Do you know what I mean? And I've said this before. It's kind of the context. What we wanted to look at as well is we're not pointing the finger and saying this is why, this is why, this is why. Because with the show itself, straight away you find out, You understand that the boy has committed this heinous act. But the question we're asking is why? Do you know what I mean? We don't know the answer to why. But in that beautiful saying, it takes a village to raise a child. Do you know what I mean? So within that context, what we're actually looking at is we're looking at parenting.

9:45We're looking at the education system. We're looking at the schools. Do you know what I mean? We're looking at the immediate community. So that's kind of what we wanted to look at. and then on top of her, as Erin just said and as you pointed out, you know, you have this other influence. But when I was a kid, and I've said that, this is the only way I can say it properly, when I was a kid, and say I was watching Kenny Every on the telly, do you know what I mean, and it'd get a bit saucy or something, my mum would go, right, go on your bed. So I'd go to bed and in my room, in my bedroom, I could like maybe draw some pictures or I had a Casio little keyboard thing, do you know what I mean?

10:19That was the depths of, I'm dyslexic, I didn't really read much, but that was kind of the depths of the things that I could do. We send our kids to their rooms today and the possibilities are endless because within that microcosm of your bedroom, the macrocosm of you, as you've just explained, is vast, especially with the connection to the internet. And they can be looking at all kinds of things, do you know what I mean? And with the research we did, some of the things of like the porn that kids from the age of even 12 are looking at these days, do you know what I mean? It's horrific. And that idea of the bedroom is in an episode that you're in, Erin, episode three.

10:59We'll come to how it's shot in a minute, but I was struck by the overwhelming claustrophobia of that episode. This bedroom, we'll come to the child star in a moment. I think we can call him a child star, a young man called Owen, who's astonishing. We'll get to that. But there is a very, very, very strong intensity to episode three, which is very much confined to this one bedroom and this feeling that basically kids' bedrooms, we've always known they're important, but if you allow a kid in their bedroom access to all the information in the world, that's an invitation to terrible things, isn't it?

11:30Well, yeah, so I basically, like you see, we pick up for me on like our final meeting before I have to then take the information that I gauge from this child to the court system And he's essentially his future will be decided. But, yeah, you're kind of revolving around the questioning, essentially, for the whole ep, which I will say, like, it was intense. But also as an actor, it's so freeing because all you have to do is be present, be in the moment and just serve the text. And this was it's one of the rare occasions where it's all there on the page. You don't really have to add too much or like spice it up in any way.

12:20Like the story is so relevant, but also the writing is so brilliant that actually it was a gift. And being sat, as you say, in front of this incredible talent that is Owen, a lot of the usual hoops that actors have to jump through just ceased to exist because you got to just be. How did you prepare to play this clinical psychologist? yeah so I uh I spoke to my past therapist um so I I'm big on therapy I'm such a huge advocate for it I think we can all even if there's nothing glaringly obvious in your life that you want to go and speak about I think we can all benefit from sitting down and talking to someone um so yeah I I'd been in therapy for years and years and years and so I'd built up a great relationship um with this woman and I reached out to her when this part came through and was like how would you feel about sitting down and talking to me um and so yeah that's kind of and also I suppose just the years of therapy informed it a lot like you kind of tend to just know the energy that they need to bring and that kind of the level of empathy that is necessary um so I think that even subconsciously just made me want to be a part of this show as well because as I say I'm so passionate about it and the fact that I got to be that role specifically in this story was really important to me.

13:44And there is this astonishing performance by a young chap called Owen Cooper. Is it right to say this is Owen Cooper's first acting gig? Yeah, yeah, it is. That's hard to believe. He's phenomenal. He's 13 when he plays the part. He's 13 when he plays the part. Look, I've been very blessed. I've worked with some wonderful young actors. Little Thomas Tigg used to name one from Mrs. England, do you know what I mean? And in the very same way, we had an amazing cast and director, Shaheen Baig. She's phenomenal. She really is. We've worked with her a couple of times. She's magnificent, Shaheen, and she's a wonderful woman, but she's brilliant, especially brilliant at finding young talent.

14:23And no disrespect, and we're not being disrespectful at all, but from the very beginning, me and Phil and the other producers, Warp and Hannah, my wife as well, we really wanted to find somebody who didn't have much experience, very similar to Tomo in that respect, you know, was very kind of fresh, wasn't tainted in any way, shape or form by the industry in any ways and didn't have much knowledge of how it all works. And Shaheen cast the net far and far. I think we saw over 500 young lads. 500? We saw over 500. Well, Phil and Shaheen especially went through the tapes, do you know what I mean? Were they all doing an audition tape?

15:03Yeah, yeah, over 500 young lads and not many of them were from like big agencies or anything like that. And they were all up north because we knew we were going to set it up north. We knew it was going to be a fictitious town somewhere up north. So we wanted to create that kind of opportunity to give someone a goal, do you know what I mean? To give someone a chance. and I think that's the ethos of our companies as well to create opportunities for young working class kids who are very similar to me and Erin, do you know what I mean? Who may not normally have these opportunities and so he came and he was fantastic and then we went through a process of a workshop where I worked with five of them, we narrowed it down to five and we spent a whole day with the five of them and the parents came and stuff and I met them all and they were all absolutely brilliant, every one of them were brilliant and we did something which I think is unique it doesn't normally happen in our industry we said to those five lads look you might not get this part but there's other roles in it which we would like you to play I was going to say because the parents would be devastated for the four that didn't get it well of course yeah do you know what I mean and especially if you're not used to how this kind of industry can work because we're very fortunate me and you to be able to be in this industry and you know we've worked really hard to get where we are but there's a lot of rejection do you know what I mean and you can have these dreams and aspirations and then suddenly you turn around and told well, sorry, that hasn't worked for you.

16:22See you later, goodbye. And that's the end of it. But we, you know, it was something I really wanted to do. And I said to the parents, I had a long chat with Phil. And I said, I think we just use the rest of them in these other parts. And he was like, yeah, that's a great idea because you get to know them. Phil and Shaheen had got to know these young lads, you know what I mean? And you see them. Look, you were saying before, before we started, you were talking about footy and you, you know, possibly playing for Chelsea and all that when you were a kid. And that whole getting your boots on and getting ready to get on the pitch.

16:51But what has Owen Cooper got? Because he's extraordinarily captivating, mesmerising on screen. But when you saw him in person before he'd done any acting, what made you think this guy's got something? Without sounding pretentious, you can't explain it sometimes. When we did the workshop, he came in and he was a really lovely young lad and he's exceptionally polite, isn't he? Yeah. And his mum and dad are wonderful. He's from a wonderful home, full of love and full of support. and he's just a well-rounded young lad and he came in and I just looked at him and I went, right, when we do this, I'm your dad, you're my son and we just dive in and he just looked at me and he went, okay.

17:30And then we did a little improvisation and he was just in it. He was so present. As, you know, as she's just said during their wonderful take, he turns up and he was off Buch for the start of the year. he'd learned the script it's the first script he's ever done and he'd learned every single word and as soon as he left the room during that little workshop I just turned round and I looked at Phil and I looked at Joel Johnson, that amazing producer and I just said that's it that's him Well his life is about to change in a very very big way I mean how do you protect a young, he's what 13 or 14 now you must want to look after him and make sure he gets a normal childhood as well You do, I've got a younger brother who's 11 years younger than me so I've definitely kind of latched onto him in that way.

18:21You just can't help it. But as Stephen said, he's just the kindest soul as well, so you very much are protective and just hoping, obviously, that he gets everything coming his way, but also at the same time that he continues to surround himself with love and care, and I think he will. Well, he's got a solid, you know, in these situations, your parents are integral, and he's got a lot of love and he's got a lot of support. And also, you know, look, yeah, I'll be dead honest, you know, there's a couple of us who are kind of going to be his mentor in many ways, you know what I mean? He's already, I mean, he's left those behind.

18:58He's working with Margot Robbie, do you know what I mean? Who is he? Hollywood next. Yeah. Well, he's about to become a household name partly through this. You mentioned a couple of times that Philip Barantini, who you've worked with before and is a mate of yours, Stephen, did this all in one shot. It's quite hard for people as viewers who aren't in this world to understand. Now, they see it and it's amazing to look at. And they might have recognised long sequences from Hitchcock or other modern films. What's the effect, Erin, that doing it in one shot creates for the viewer, do you think? This one long sequence which you're kind of, you literally can't take your eyes away.

19:33I think it's the level of danger and intensity. I really think it leaps through the screen and hopefully onto people's sofas. Like, I think I watched it for the first time the other day in its entirety and I ceased to be a part of it. I was an audience member, absolutely gripped and I couldn't breathe. Like, I think that's what it brings is, as I say, that level of risk and rawness. Like, you can't help but absolutely become glued to the screen. And as you say, because you're witnessing this happen live, you're essentially another part of the puzzle piece. You're another character. Without those people watching, there's no story to tell.

20:18And I feel like with the one shot, it really solidifies that. And you're a fly on the wall, essentially. And as you say, you can't tear your eyes away. You have to keep watching as awful as this storyline portrays. you have to get to the end of every ep because you can't not. But doesn't it massively add to your pressure as an actor? I mean, if I'm doing a 10 second piece to camera, I feel awful if I screw it up, I think, oh God, I've let the crew down. Do you know what? It has a different effect. As you just so eloquently said, that whole voyeuristic element of the camera. But what we do is it's rehearsed.

20:58We rehearsed the script intensely for a week. So you pick the dialogue apart. Do you know what I mean? and the fortunate position we were all in was we had Jack with us for a few days and I was there as well, do you know what I mean? So kind of Jack wrote and we created it together. So you've got the writers there. So you can, if you have any questions or you're not too sure about certain things or you want to know the motivation for reasons, it's there, it's accessible. And then we spend a whole week with the entire crew. Matt, our amazing DLP and Phil. That's the director of photography, I should say.

21:32Yeah, sorry, yeah. Yeah, the cameraman. and Lee, we have two cameramen because they pass the camera to each other quite often because, you know, it's a hell of an undertaking for one man to do, one person to do, in fact. So they pass the camera between each other quite often throughout the whole sequence. And it's like a dance, you know what I mean? It's beautiful. So you kind of, we all inhabit the space together. So you spend that whole week. Don't forget, I think you've seen episode one. So we get in a car, we travel to the police station, we get out of the police station. In episode four, we go on a car journey all the way to like, not B &Q, but you know, a similar kind of hardware store that are the ones available.

22:14Wix. Wix, yeah. Home base. Wix. Wix, it's got our name on it. Oh my God. Have I just done an advert? You have. Sorry, Wix. Yeah, okay. We'll cut that bit. That's so funny. I don't know why I did that. You were so good at that. Thank you very much, Erin. Well, he is an actor. Yeah, I know. which I am available for a couple of quid there do you know what I mean anyway where was I so we go on a car journey and everything do you know what I mean so you work the whole technical elements of it for that week and then the next week you're in the week of shooting so because of the setup and how long it takes to reset things you know in a set and them kind of conditions we do two takes a day so primarily we could end up at the end of the week with ten takes so that's kind of how it works but then to go back to the footy analogy you're a team you know what I mean you're passing the ball to each other we all have that same objective and that same we all have the same motivation to succeed and to get through this but really enjoy it and I don't mean to sound pretentious but I think it's the most zen experience I've ever had as an actor because as Erin just said you're completely present you're in the moment and that's what every actor is searching for to be in the moment it's meditation do you know what i mean in many ways for me it's mindfulness meditation you're very conscious of sounding pretentious aren't you i mean i think it's because of your working class roots you said of course yeah yeah that's something you live with all the time if you're a very successful actor with a the accent that you've got from the origins that you've got we're not going to over indulge this is not going to turn into desert island discs but no why are you so conscious of it is it because you don't want to betray your working class roots no not at all not at all it's not that I don't know you're right I don't know why I always say pretentious I could jump in I think there's a weird cliche about being pardon my French a wanky actor I get it all the time like we get a bad rap for being like see I've been dying to say that word but I've said pretentious all the time and she's just said it so eloquently yeah I don't want to sound like a wanker basically yeah you carry it with you as an actor you don't want to be that guy that's like wishy-washy woo-woo but actually the thing is acting is a spiritual experience without being pretentious.

24:30Like, it does just take you elsewhere because if you're not present, you're not doing your job properly. You're not really, are you? Yeah. And on top of that, look, I love what I do. Do you know what I mean? I'm enthusiastic, I love it. I love watching other... She'll tell you, we did a thing called A Thousand Blows as well. And when she'd do something, when you're in a rehearsal, I'm like that, I'm watching you and when you're doing stuff, I go, wow, wow, that's brilliant. Or you'd laugh at me. Yeah, I'd laugh at you and I'd go, that's amazing. and she'd go, what are you laughing? And I'd be like, because what you're doing is brilliant.

24:59And then she's like, oh, okay. And a lot of actors, when I work with them, there's a kid who, there's a lovely lad, when we do the interrogation scene, when he's getting his fingerprints done and all that, it's a really heavy scene now, do you know what I mean? It's a proper moment there. And the lad who was doing it, I can't remember his name, his name's escaped me, but the lad that was doing it was going, and your left finger, and give me your right finger. And the mundane nature of what he was doing. and I just went like that I went oh wow and everyone looked and I went you're brilliant aren't you because I love what we do do you know what I mean I love being a part of it it excites me it enlightens my soul I love it that's having overcome as you say a huge amount of rejection in your career including amazingly after This Is England final thoughts I've taken up a lot at your time what do you want to come of adolescence obviously you want a big audience but I mean what do you want people to take away from it Erin what do you want how do you hope it will change how people are thinking about male rage in particular and teenage boys.

25:54I mean, I think as Stephen's touched on, this show isn't providing any answers. I don't think it can. I don't think there are any specific solutions to this problem, but all good art should do is shine a light on topics that need to be spoken about and looked at. And this one, as you say, in particular, is quite terrifying and it's very easy to avoid it. But this show has the bravery to just peel back the layers and go, let's talk about this thing because, as Stephen has said, we're still dealing with it today. Like there are still issues cropping up in the news today. So all we can hold ourselves accountable for is having the discussion and hopefully that's what it does.

26:37It just allows parents, aunties, uncles, even just friends to engage in the conversation. Yeah, and can I just back that up? That's primarily our overall objective, just to create conversation. And look, you said something beautiful. We were talking before we started this interview. And you said about the time you have to get up in the morning and the hard work you put into the job that you do and to provide for your family. That's why you do your job that you do. Plus, you love it and you're very brilliant at it. But you said something and there was a light that came in on your eyes and you said, I love reading to me kids.

27:12And that's beautiful. Do you know what I mean? You take that time. And a lot of us don't. So I think all this is trying to say and all we're trying to create from this piece is to say take that time to find out what's going on with your kids. Open the conversation. That's basically it. Steve and Graham, Erin Doherty, thank you both so much for coming in. Thank you. Thank you. That was my conversation with two of the stars of Adolescence and on this week's episode of the Today podcast which is called Adolescence and the Crisis of Masculinity I unpack the issues it raises with Richard Reeves who wrote of Boys and Men and Catherine Carr, who made a Radio 4 series called About the Boys.

27:53Please do go and listen to that on the Today podcast feed. Nick and I will be back next week. Speak to you then.

28:07From BBC Radio 4. They remind me of the beauty of the everyday. Illuminated is the home for creative, one-of-a-kind documentaries documentaries that shed light on hidden worlds. You could hear the plants photosynthesising. A place of audio beauty and joy with emotion and human experience at its very heart. You can see the people walking bewildered, absolutely bewildered. Nobody really knew what to think. The programs you'll find here explore the reality of contemporary Britain and the world. It's a chance to meet voices that are not normally heard. You don't open your mouth. If you tell one person, that's it.

28:49Illuminated from BBC Radio 4. All human life is here, just waiting to be discovered. Listen on BBC Sounds.

29:02If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. you