Can A ‘Repair Not Replace’ Culture Be Revived In Fashion? (Your Radical Questions with Josephine Philips)

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0:37Hello and welcome to your Radical Questions. This is our Monday bonus episode where I put your questions to one of our super radical guests. This is your chance to engage very directly with them, connect with them, ask some questions, get real answers and be part of the wonderful process and journey of this very exciting podcast. Britain's most exciting podcast officially, according to me. I've just had a absolutely riveting conversation with the magnificent entrepreneur Josephine Phillips about her mission to stop overconsumption, about reforming and, dare I say, repairing the fast fashion industry.

1:13She's got a company called Sojo and it does. Josephine? We are modernising the clothing repair and tailoring industry. I couldn't have said it better myself. and it's pretty radical because it is taking this enormous juggernaut which is the global fashion industry and is fundamentally changing it in pretty radical ways and she is very kindly despite having this business empire and moral mission she's very kindly given up a lot of her time and is sticking around to answer your questions are you ready for some questions from our radical listeners yeah depends what they are depends what they are well actually you don't get to choose them but they came flooding in I mean I put this thing out on social media saying send us questions and they came in our first question is from Julia in West Yorkshire.

1:55Sojo has made steps in aligning repair with the apparel brands who are mass manufacturing to kind of introduce the repair economy in a new way. But how does that vision scale and how does it kind of scale outside of London? I think that there's a massive growth potential for training repairers around the UK and really tapping into some of the policy around T levels and apprenticeships. And how do we connect up those dots to support and grow the repair economy so that we can scale that to create meaningful growth and meaningful change for the fashion industry? I mean, I should say, Josephine, we've had lots of questions on a similar theme.

2:40So William Smith got in touch with me on Instagram, asking in broad terms, how do you get people of fast fashion to shop more sustainably? I mean, basically people are saying, And I think there's a common thread here, which is like they think what you're doing is very cool. How do you scale it? No, completely. And to be honest, the actual question that was just asked somewhat answered it itself in that she spoke to the fact that we're working with brands. And when we started, we actually were not working with brands themselves. We were just offering our repair services directly to customers. But actually, when we're talking about scale, we're talking about how can we get into the industry?

3:14And we realised that the brands themselves have the relationships with the customers, the clothing relationships with the customers. And to use them to bring repair to the mainstream would be a really strategically strong way to get to scale. So actually our partners like Marks & Spencer, Selfridges, Ralph Lauren, etc. They are facilitating repair to their customers via Sojo. And that is a way that we're able to get to scale. and one of the things that Julia who lives in West Yorkshire was keen on is getting this outside of London I'm not asking you to fix education reform as well as everything else today but she mentioned develop training T-level and apprenticeship offers establishing standalone repair hubs around the UK I mean there's no reason this should be centred in London is Sojo mostly centred in London yes by nature of me being here and living here and growing up here I'm like I want it to be near me No, but fundamentally that in no way, shape or form is it meant to stay here in the sense of, again, with the work that we're doing with brands themselves, they are all over and or they are global as well.

4:14So we're not just talking about London and not rest of UK. We're talking about international bringing repair to the international stage from an actual worker perspective. What we found is that by creating demand, it in and of itself creates jobs. So fundamentally, what we have found when speaking to our tailors who work with us, that they have said that their opportunities for job were really restricted. They kind of had to go down a path in terms of alteration of repair of opening their own shop. Or they had to then maybe be the one off tailor in a brand where they're working in the basement and they do the same alteration, let's say, on Savile Row or something on a pair of suit trousers.

4:50whereas what Sojo offers by creating the demand for a really broad industry of repair which is a cross-brand, waterproofs, knitwear, jeans, you know, t-shirts, dresses, sequin dresses, all of it and creating a space where tailors can come and work together. But it's interesting that idea of this kind of, yeah, that kind of distilled wisdom of centuries of people who've got kind of different experience is interesting because there is an education aspect to this and Tony's been in touch. Thank you, by the way, to Julia in West Yorkshire for that question. Thank you, Julia. Tony has been in touch and Tony is a tailor in Somerset.

5:23Tony says, in the UK, we have outsourced most clothing manufacturing and teaching of the skills to make clothes to such a degree that there are now generations of people with no skills. It's interesting because in the main episode last Thursday, you were talking about how your grandmother used to have these incredible skills of sewing. My mum, by the way, is an unbelievable tailor. She's also an unbelievable cook. And yeah, I know. All around unbelievable. She's an incredible person. And Tony says, as a teacher, I would love to see practical making skills as a core subject in schools, given that only 100 % of the population wear clothes, eat food, use things made with wood, metal, plastic and use electronic products.

6:01What does Josephine think about the increasing lack of educational opportunities to make clothes in this country? I fully, fully support Tony and our need for teaching skills around sewing in school. It used to be done. So again, if we're speaking to our parents' generation or grandparents' generation, it used to be taught in schools. And I think that in and of itself did two things. One, it created a stronger path to people who wanted to go into that trade. Two, it brought people to actually repair things themselves in their homes when things broke and it allowed them to have the skills to do that.

6:33But actually, the third thing that I'd mentioned as well is it gave them an understanding of what it takes to repair something and to actually work on a garment and an understanding of the craft. Like we're so dissociated of what it means to repair something or make an item of clothing that I think by actually doing it yourself, you get an understanding of it. So that lack of happening in our education system is part of the problem. And I am definitely a big advocate for ensuring that people are taught. How do you hire tailors? You put out a job ad. and then they say that they've done but what's the no i i hear you and what's the way because you don't sort of say oh i've got sort of you know i can program in c++ what's the way in which a tailor kind of proves their skill level to you yeah so to be honest we have a really wide array of skills and also in terms of expert levels so we actually have people coming straight out of uni they've maybe done fashion degrees etc and they want to get into repair and alterations and actually when they start with us there's a big element of training that happens within Sojo in and of itself because they may just start by doing hems on trousers which is great they know how to do that but actually there's a lot of skill sharing that we do so if they're interested in suiting or they're interested in knitwear they're interested in outerwear we're able to facilitate that learning but also then at the same time someone applies to us and they say I've been altering clothes for the last 40 years in a suit shop they can come and be one of our suit tailors but again there's opportunity for them to learn other types of clothing and other skill sets.

7:58Tony, thank you very much indeed for that. This next question is from Juliet. Have we got two Juliettes? No, we had a Julia. This is Juliet who says, as a small scale producer, I believe in the importance of creating environmentally friendly and plastic free material for new garments from sustainable locally grown fibres such as flax and hemp. My question to Josephine is, is there an argument for reviving the UK linen industry as part of a radical overhaul of how we produce the clothes we wear? I'm going to ask a prior question because I don't want to assume too much knowledge, even from our extremely clever listeners.

8:33What is the UK linen industry? I was about to ask you. Hey, I can do the maths. I'm about to be like, wow, she thinks I really know about the UK's linen industry. No, I don't want to just entirely change the question. I'd love to just answer a question that's more about the revival of the UK's manufacturing industry as a whole. So not speaking necessarily just towards linen, even though I think we could extrapolate it to think maybe more about natural fabrics in general and focusing less on polyester, et cetera. But I do really think that that global to local mindset is something that we're seeing a little bit across the board, actually.

9:06Not to say that, you know, more people are shopping at farmers markets, et cetera. But I think this move away from thinking that we need to get something and it needs to be coming from thousands of miles away is happening and is a way that you can engage in fashion in a more sustainable way, thinking I'm going to go for that small scale, locally produced brand that is using natural fabrics made in England is a really good way to engage in sustainable fashion. And actually, you know, this jacket I'm wearing, it's a friend of mine. She's created three designs in the last four years. And this is one of them.

9:35If we're talking about small scale versus 6 ,000 new styles a day, we know what's slow fashion and what's fast fashion. But also people like the idea of being attached to craft. I can say this because in total honesty, he's a friend of mine and actually spoke to him on the Today programme. The best book that I've read in the past year is called Craftland by an art historian called James Fox, which is absolutely amazing. And it's about these vanishing trades around Britain. And when you discover it, whether it's watchmakers or someone who creates a bell tower somewhere or someone like your mate who creates a jumper, people, when they discover it.

10:06To be honest, it's the reason The Repair Shop is such an extraordinarily successful programme. when people discover the distilled practical wisdom that goes into these craft and the folk and the communities that arise from that it's just so much cooler to wear that stuff than some you know some pair of trainers you got off the internet because you know you saw a youtube ad for them exactly cooler happier like it speaks to what we were speaking about in the last episode around how does it make you feel um also when i have witnessed the work that our tailors have done I'm in a complete awe. Like it's truly, as you say, a craft and it makes you appreciate the expertise, but also the item that you then get given.

10:42You think, wow, they really did that. And I'm so connected to the item now. Juliette's question is, which was about the linen industry, but we could apply it more widely. Is there an argument for reviving the UK linen industry as part of a radical overhaul of how we produce the clothes we wear? If you were going to try a national level to revive these industries, what do you kind of what what actually needs to happen? Is it about tax breaks? Is it about social media? What do you need to do to give these industries a bit more weight? I mean, to be honest, not to in any way, shape or form highlight what Trump is doing, but there's an equivalence in terms of him being like, let's bring manufacturing back to the US, blah, blah, blah, which is ultimately potentially like a...

11:21Josephine Phillips, MAGA cheerleader. I'm literally, I don't even want to say his name. When we booked you, I knew that you wanted to come in here in a MAGA hat. But you can see the parallels. You can see the parallel to if the UK government even made a decision to bring more manufacturing back to the UK, particularly as we used to historically in places like Leicester have a really, really strong kind of clothing manufacturing, fashion manufacturing industry. I think it's no bad thing, but I think it entirely connects to the previous question around education. You can't have a workforce that hasn't been created in terms of skill set.

11:57So if we're to bring more UK manufacturing to the forefront of the fashion industry, we need the people who know how to sew. Yeah, there is just to be a mildly pompous Radio 4 person, which I'm very much not in my normal course of affairs. There's a really serious and important point there, which is that the decline through it being exported through globalization of manufacturing industries is kind of one of the fundamental facts of our lives today. If you look at, you know, for instance, J.D. Vance's book, Hillbilly Elegy, which is all about what happened when globalisation came in. It's true to say that 100 years ago, which is nothing in the course of human history, many, many, many towns in parts of the democratic West did have manufacturing industries, which provided not just jobs and secure employment, but meaning and community.

12:42And when they left, it wasn't just the jobs that left, but a way of life left. And it's so interesting when you mention Leicester, I know through various bits of reporting that Guardian and others have done that the Leicester garment industry is seen as a kind of migrant industry and migrants alone. And obviously they're a fundamental part of it. But there is an even older tradition of manufacturing and textiles in this country, which has been in, I think I looked it up before we got together, in sort of decline. And there's huge benefits in bringing that back. 100%. Jobs, meaning, security, you know, people like Juliet.

13:17being able to talk about locally grown fibres such as flax and hemp. And I don't think that has to be nostalgic. I think actually it can be quite an exciting future facing. 100%. And I think actually it speaks to the fact that if something were being manufactured here, the restrictions that local production create, for example, what fabrics are you, you know, we probably wouldn't be using. The globalisation in and of itself has made the items cheap because of the labour being cheaper and has made the items a lot more material leaning to plastics, etc. Because, you know, fracking, etc. happens elsewhere.

13:50And I think that by making things locally, we connect to them. They're probably more sustainable for the planet. And it's just a better approach to fashion. What is good is there are companies like John Smedley, you know, a really heritage knitwear brand, who actually their factory is the oldest factory in the world. And it's in the UK. Yeah, I went for a tour there. And I was like, really? I mean, I'm finding it uncomfortable saying it here because they said it to me and I was like, really? But they create Merino wool jumpers and they've recently opened their facility to manufacture jumpers for other brands.

14:20And they're trying to bring more manufacturing back to the UK by facilitating like Merino wool jumpers creation for different brands. And I thought that's really incredible because it's making the industry come back. Juliet, thank you very much indeed. Let's have a final question. This is from Susie. I'm a keen up cycler and a lover of goth style fashion. I love all vintage Vivian Westwood and Alexander McQueen and stuff like that. And I see it as an art form. But unfortunately, this has got almost elitist association. I might have the time and a small amount of skill to be able to upcycle and do amazing things with charity shop purchases, etc.

15:01But I'm lucky and I have a genuine interest. so how do we go about making the repair not replace culture accessible to everyone so that it's not so much cheaper to buy mass-produced clothing that even if they do say they are recyclable that means in about 100 years time or so and in the meantime the terrible white bugs of waste textiles pile up on the shores of anywhere that isn't regulated to prevent it thank you wow susie first of all what are white bugs of waste white bugs of waste that sounds like that should be the title of a novel or something. What are whitebergs of waste? I think she might be referring to piles and piles of clothing that are so big.

15:43I mean, there's actually, exactly. There's piles of clothing in the Atacama Desert in Chile that you can see from space. That's how big they've got in this beautiful desert. The mounds are so massive that you can see them from space. My goodness. Okay. Susie, thank you so much. I've learned something significant from you. How do we go about making the repair not replace culture accessible to everyone so that it's not so much cheaper to buy mass produced clothing? So I'm going to answer that in two ways. The first is that I want to acknowledge that quite often behaviours that are more sustainable are inherently more expensive and more inconvenient.

16:22So, for example, if we were to, let's say, you know, refills, like going to a shop that offers refills when your news agent is on the corner or your Sainsbury's local is on the corner, but your other is two miles away. So you've got a sustainable option where you can go to a zero waste shop, for example. You know, there's no plastic there. It's doing good, but it's more expensive and it's further away. So it is important to acknowledge that is privilege in speaking to you should do this and you should do that, etc. But what I would say is I'd actually and it's really important that we actually really question the premise of but the repair is more expensive than if I could have bought a new item because the repair has a lot of ethics behind it.

17:00And those ethics include paying people fairly. So, for example, if someone says I can buy jeans for£15.99, but the zip replacement is£20, why would that make sense? It's about actually just truly fundamentally making them understand the true cost of that£15.99 item. The cost that isn't numerical. The cost of a person's livelihood, the cost of the impact on the planet. Like there are costs that aren't monetary that that$15.99 is speaking to that isn't the same when flipping the script and looking at the repair. So I do really think it's important that we also acknowledge that repair is a skill.

17:33It is a cost, etc. But obviously she's also speaking to the fact that she repairs herself, which is free. So learning to repair and repairing yourself is something that you can do for free, which is amazing. But obviously then there's the cost of time. So it's a big balancing act. I think what we're just trying to do at Sojo is by making repair easier and making it akin to the easiness of buying something new. We're trying to make it more mainstream, more accessible in and of itself and trying to get people to understand the cost of something, the true cost of something. What do you think about Susie's point that it's elitist, the elitist associations of loving vintage stuff from Vivian Westwood and Alexander McQueen?

18:10I mean, those people didn't, as far as I remember, grow up particularly rich. And she sees it, Susie, as an art form. is there is there an elitist association there is anything we could do about that i mean there's elitism may be associated with it from a point of view of it of them being luxury brands like fundamentally um to be able to buy a vivian westwood dress you have to have a certain amount of money and be because it's of a certain price point and similar with alexander mcqueen so i do think that it would be remiss to be able to say that's a sustainable way to shop because it's it's it's not accurate um but again it goes back to what we spoke about in the podcast on thursday which is, you know, not shopping.

18:48Not shopping is also free. Repairing things yourself is free. Or just being more intentional about not buying as much is a really, really great way to engage with clothing in a way that doesn't cost the bank. And I do think that also secondhand as a path for an affordable way to engage in clothing and in shopping is, I mean, it was my end to the industry, but it really is the way that so many people are engaging with it. The kind of younger generations, yes, but everyone kind of finding great finds on, you know, eBay or Vinted and it won't cost the bank. So other than going on some of those platforms you mentioned, I'm going to go home, go through my wardrobe very methodically and be like, what do I really think about this?

19:25Do I really want that? I'm not going to chuck that away. What can I do about that? And that's going to be a useful exercise, which I suspect many of our listeners will do. Josephine, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I know there's a lot of people that want a piece of it. So we're massively, massively grateful. Have you vaguely enjoyed the experience? I've absolutely loved it. And I wanted to say thank you as well to the community for asking questions and getting involved. And I'm just really excited to hear the reception of us talking about such an important topic. Thank you for having me.

19:51And you're hiring. So job applications come in. Thank you all so much for your questions. Thank you to Josephine for answering them. I'll be back with another episode of Radical on Thursday. But until then, thank you for your time and goodbye.

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