Climate Migration: Confronting the Reality of Global Warming (Gaia Vince)

28:07Is it? Yes, it is. Just for economic reasons, because once we reach that tipping point, which could be very soon, you know, or it could be a few years down the track. It means that all the infrastructure, all the logistics, everything is geared around this source of energy. So it just becomes mental. It's as if today you try to bring back one of those, you know, ancient cars that you started up with. Like there is no market for that. Right. Other than a few like eccentrics. So so that's the way it will go. But the reason that we have taken this plunge originally was because of the emissions of these greenhouse gases, which is causing climate change, causing global heating, which is destabilizing our world.

28:57And, unfortunately, the Earth systems are not going to wait for us to reach a happy medium with the ideologues and reach this net zero. And then we have to, by the way, cut below net zero, right? Net zero just means that there's a balance between what we're emitting and produce and removing by natural means. so we have a very small window in which to do that before it just becomes unlivable we've already had more than a year um where the global average temperature has been above one one and a half degrees right this is hugely problematic we're seeing massive um flooding episodes right in the heart of europe we see you know we started the year in the winter of the northern hemisphere with the richest, most expensive, valuable real estate in the world on fire.

29:52This is Los Angeles. This is LA, yeah, and many people still homeless from that. So when we think about climate migration, you might be thinking about a village of some houses where people have had to move. If we look at the people displaced, which is essentially they've had to migrate to a certain degree from where they live by disasters, It's huge.

30:19You know, it's so interesting at a time when it feels like climate change is no longer at the top of the political agenda, perhaps compared to a few years ago. And when it feels like many leaders and perhaps many populations and publics are turning against migration, it is pretty radical, isn't it? to hear someone say, as Guy O 'Vince is saying, that climate change should be back at the top of the agenda and that we need to get used to an era of mass migration and make that work. There's plenty more where that came from. I just wanted to jump in here for a brief, brief moment and say to you that if you're enjoying this conversation, if you've enjoyed other episodes of this podcast, please do subscribe.

30:59If you subscribe on BBC Sounds, you won't miss future episodes. And just to say, if you do subscribe, make sure you've got your push notifications. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

31:45...tunned on. That way you will get an alert whenever we publish a new episode and you'll never miss out. Thank you so much. And now back to Gaia Vince.

31:59So climate migration is a phrase, captures the two sides of the huge human coin that I wanted to discuss with you. Because you say looking ahead the next five years, particularly given what's happening in China with solar energy, we're reaching potentially a tipping point in the global economy. But also if we look ahead the next five years and try and understand the deep trends that are going to reshape our world, which is really what this podcast is all about, your radical idea is that we need to get comfortable with the idea that mass migration is a bigger part of the human future and not a smaller one yeah absolutely so um we need to adjust um today's very uh anti-migration uh mental frame that we've got into to cope with that.

32:55We need to be honest about the extent of climate change and also the extent of migration that's coming. And we need to find ways to address that so that we can build our societies of the future in a planned, ordered, managed way so that we have a better Anthropocene because it's not so great right now. Can I put you a series of fairly obvious objections to your position. The first thing is you could not have a clearer or more emphatic message from all the polling and all the elections that people are worried about migration. This is just the UK, obviously true of many Western democracies and that's before we get on to Hungary.

33:37People are worried about mass migration. They want it slowed down and they also have quite strong views about who should come. I mean, yeah, that's all true. but you know not wanting it I don't want climate change I don't you know I don't maybe you want the world to stay exactly as it is well you know that's you can want it but that doesn't matter that doesn't mean it's going to happen right we have to get real we have to be honest about what is happening right if people can't stay in some place they will have to move and by the way it's going to happen here as well because we're certainly not making adequate preparations for the extreme weather that we're already starting to experience and we do have people every year made homeless because of floods um coastal erosion is uh getting rid of houses in quite dramatic fashion uh from from from british coasts we we are we are expecting to see that we have a huge drought issues across um the southeast you know this this is happening but it's happening on a global scale.

34:41So, you know, not wanting it is not a solution to the problem, unfortunately, because it's happening whether you want it or not. Do you think that large-scale migration, so we had, I think, last year, 460 net, or about 400-something net migration to the UK. Before that, it peaked at the end of the Conservatives 14 years, over 900 ,000 net. Do you think that's A, economically, and B, socially desirable? I mean, I don't know about desirable. It totally depends on how it's managed, how we invest, how we make it work. I mean, what is happening is that we have a massive shortage of labour here. We have population declines, which are happening actually across most of the world now, which are really serious in Europe, which are only met through immigration.

35:37we are not having enough babies to support the Asian population that we that we live in and our entire sort of society is built on this on this contract where the young pay for the elderly care and you know in taxes but you know when you're an old man who's gonna wipe your bum really right It's a question I think about pretty often. Well, so, you know, whether you like it or not, we need people in. And leaders know that, economists all know that we need immigrants. We absolutely need them. And immigrants want to come largely where the work is. That's how they come. Most migrants are economic migrants.

36:20What's the point about workers? I mean, what people who take against your position would say is, there's two reasons we've got a shortage of workers. One is, as you say, the demographics. We've got a falling birth rate and a sharply rising share of the population, which is old or very old. But then we've also got particular challenges, which are probably a bit of a distraction on this. Yeah, I mean, people used to die just sort of soon after they retired. Yeah, they don't anymore. Now they're still alive and they're still alive with multiple morbidities. We've also got massive challenges in this country around people who've gone from working into not working, who are getting benefits or welfare or social security or whatever you want to call it.

37:00But is it inevitable that democracies, Western democracies, have to say, well, the only way to solve this is through mass migration? A, there are some countries like Japan or Australia who say actually, no, we'll take the hit. We'll take the demographic hit. Australia doesn't say that. Does it not? No. No, like two-thirds of Australians were born overseas. I mean, they have a very, very... The reason is Australian politics has not been wholly receptive to the idea of mass migration. I mean, going back to John Hall. No, they absolutely rely on migration in Australia. They certainly have been, in terms of asylum seeking and asylum granting, they've done some incredibly inhumane things.

37:44That's true. But their economic policy is heavily based on immigration, totally. Japan's, isn't it? Japan tried to go down the other route of robots instead of, because they are so xenophobic that they've gone down this route of replacing humans with robots. And it just hasn't worked. And so even incredibly xenophobic Japan has had to loosen its immigration requirements. And it's, you know, doing this is not easy. It takes investment. It takes financial investment in terms of you need to make sure there is enough housing. There is enough access to health care and other infrastructure, education, all of these things, a lot of which the immigrants themselves bring.

38:29But there's also got to be very, very key is social investment. You've got to make sure that this is something that you bring people along with, that people feel included. so that the migrants feel like citizens and the original population sees them as citizens and otherwise you cannot build a cohesive society. And really that's one of the biggest points of my book, I think, that we need to get past this, you know, shall we do it, shall we not do it? It's happening. Migration is part of the human condition anyway, but because of the climate crisis, it is going to increase. It is inevitably going to increase.

39:14But some people would say it doesn't have to be inevitable. And some people might read that argument and say, or read that... So everywhere that they've tried to, for example, increase the birth rate as an option, Yes, that's true. It's not worked. It has failed, right? The only way that population has economically been maintained is through immigration. But maybe some places would choose to grow old and grey, but keep what they think of as a more coherent, ethnically homogenous population rather than have large scale migration. And I don't say that to you because I'm advocating that. Well, that's fine if you don't care about living standards.

39:52If you're happy for your living standards to massively decline and you to become much poorer and have less access to things. I mean, this is kind of the decision that the UK took with Brexit. and economically we took a hit because of ideology. So on the living standards point, a lot of people would say, well, if it was the case that migration is your best hope of increasing living standards, how can it be that in the last 15 years we've had record migration to the UK, completely unprecedented in historical terms, and yet living standards have been flat? There's been a massive lack of investment.

40:30There's been poor redistribution of wealth because certainly the richest people have got richer during this time. There's been the lack of investment in society generally in all of these aspects. But also the lack of people to do the jobs has been a big part of that. Plus, we've had a pandemic here. I mean, this is actually something that has happened globally. I'll give you the example of Spain, however, because the Spanish leader was very honest and open last year to the people and he said, look, we can go down this anti-immigrant route like it's the fashion in Europe at the moment. We can totally do that or we can grow the economy and that will take immigration.

41:19And what he did was he put in loads of policies to make it work. so when people arrive in Spain they are assimilated quite quickly into jobs into places where they where they can work they have Spanish lessons free or very cheap from day one they have they you know it as a result Spain's GDP has grown at a much higher rate than the European average the EU average and certainly much higher than than Britain's what would you say to That is largely because of this much more pragmatic policy. What would you say to your sisters and brothers in America, which is a country that right now politically, I mean, by the way, I should just say it's so interesting and how can I say it's refreshing because I'm talking to you about this because I realise that I haven't spoken to anyone strongly advocating for more migration for quite a long time.

42:15I mean, I think you are, I mean, I haven't heard someone make the case for migration other than when caveating their criticism of migration? You often hear people go up in a party conference speech and say, this country was built by migrants, my family came here, we believe in it, but let's, you know, not quite close the borders, but let's have fewer migrants. Whereas you seem to be sort of shamelessly saying this is going to happen, it's a good thing, and make sure it is a good thing by having the right politics to make sure it works. If we have migration, which we will have inevitably, but we don't put in any policies to deal with it, we will have conflict.

42:49We will have all sorts of problems. We must manage it in a sensible way. But also you won't have democratic consent, which is one of the big issues in this country. For example, and the reason we don't have that is because of this fundamental lack of honesty. Because we do hear, as you just said, we do hear leaders. They are all very, very anti-migration. That is their stance that they come from. And it is actually, it's quite interesting to look at this from outside the little peephole of our time and look at this on a grander historical level because, you know, nations were paying people to come to them, right?

43:29The Windrush generation didn't just sort of like rock up on a cruise, should we stop here? They were asked by Britain to come because we needed somebody to come and rebuild our health service. We needed, you know, the railway sorted. We needed all of this. We needed human labour just as we continue to need it. And so we wanted people to come. You know, borders, which are also actually historically relatively new, were mainly about keeping people in. You know, people went out. Leaders went out and brought people in. You know, when their armies defeated a population, they were brought in as Labour or to join the military or to, you know, work in the fields.

44:18We needed people and leaders have always needed people. And what we are heading for a place, whatever this kind of mad time might present otherwise, we are headed for a place where countries will be competing for immigrants. and the immigrants will choose where to go. We already see that. We already see... You don't mean just highly skilled AI engineers. I don't just mean highly. They are already choosing where they go, right? And if they have a policy, for example, where they're not allowed to bring their family with them, which, by the way, is a basic human right that you should be allowed to live with your family, if they have those sorts of policies, they're going to go somewhere where that isn't a policy.

45:01I mean, we have been very, very... We are naturally very, very lucky that people choose to come here when they do because of, for example, our language is fairly universal, because we have strong institutions, because, you know, we have a strong democracy, all of those sorts of things. Make it a place where, you know, which we should be proud of if we're proud of anything, that we have a country that can luckily attract people. But that is absolutely going to drop.

45:37But what you're saying goes so against the temper of the times, it goes so against the grain of public conversation in this country or indeed in America, that I think it's just worth putting to you so you can counter it. The argument of those who are, for instance, in America saying we need to be much tougher on immigration or people in this country who might soon lead this country. They say, look, nations are homes. They are a complicated mixture and fabric of institutions, rituals, customs, and maybe shared obedience to some kind of moral order and shared histories. And if you have too much too quickly, and if you don't take the necessary measures to make sure that those who do come are aware of their duties and obligations as well as their rights, then you get huge social division.

46:26You don't become richer economically and you create pockets of really parallel societies. Yeah, so that's exactly why we need to manage this properly. Because that is absolutely true. That is absolutely true. And we've seen that in various places. We've seen migration where it's been managed well, and we've seen it where it's been managed poorly. And, you know, we are creating those conditions all the time today. We are creating, we have essentially stateless people, asylum seekers, for example, are, you know, they're not allowed to work, they're not allowed to contribute to society. So we have the most expensive way of dealing with this because we keep them in, you know, accommodations on the edge.

47:13You know, we're not we're not helping them feel part of this society, feeling, you know, an affinity to to citizenship, to what it means to be British, to what it means to be a Londoner or whatever. We're not developing and nurturing that in them. what we're doing is developing this kind of, you know, we hate you, we wish you weren't here, we're going to keep you on the absolute bare minimum, we're going to put all sorts of other petty humiliations your way, and then we might let you become a citizen after that. You know, that is not the way to treat a human being at all, obviously, but if you want to create a flourishing, productive city of the future, a beautiful place to live for yourself, and for your children and your friends.

48:03And, you know, these are immigrants, our work colleagues, our kids, friends at schools, the nurse and the GP surgery. These are part of our society. The cleaner in the person at the local church or mosque, yeah. All of these people, they become part of our society. So let's create that society, you know, intentionally, meaningfully, without doing this. And that means that absolutely we need to find ways of working with other nations, with other countries to make sure that these people, as they come, they come in a way that we are able to manage it in a humane fashion. But when they come, we also make sure that we invest properly in them and build a sense of shared citizenship.

48:50What would you say? Because it's changing. Nothing is, you know, stasis is death. We are creating a society every day. The society we live in today, the London of today, was created in the past by people, you know, Victorians with vision that built libraries, Carnegie libraries. You know, we're living in the, you know, the community housing built in the 60s or built in the 80s or whatever. We are living in the idea of democracy that, you know, has emerged over the last few hundred years. We can do the same. We can imagine a better world, a better city, a flourishing place for humans to live in a way that they can reach their potential, that they can live collaboratively, that they can have enough of everything, but without poisoning themselves with their own waste.

49:45Right. Which is something we haven't managed to do today in 2025. What would you say to those who listen to that world, that sort of call for us to imagine a better future and say it's utopian? And that actually... So what should we strive for? Dystopia? Not dystopia, but the truth about politics and the truth about democracy is that a lot of people have a preference for certain cultures, have a preference for people that they feel that they've grown up among and will vote accordingly, and that they won't accept that their country should be changed at a rate and the population of their country should be changed at the rate it has been in the last 20-odd years.

50:31Because that's where the politics of, say, America and Britain is today. I'm not advocating that position. I don't know anyone who's running on your agenda who's been successful in any Western democracy in the last 20-odd years. I would say that London is a place where immigration largely works. You know, obviously there are problems. There is still racism. There is poverty. There is huge, you know, social inequity. All of those things. People actually rub along. People mostly rub along. They rub along. It's not, you know, it's not something unusual or surprising. Or I don't think, oh, that person has darker skin than me.

51:14they're a very different person or that person, you know, clearly worships this God. They're really different. We're Londoners, right? We do rub along, but it's not just tolerance. It's also respect. It's mutual respect. And that's what we need to move to. We need to move to that everywhere. And, you know, it would be fantastic if there was leadership on this from our leaders. There are some people that are advocating for that. I really appreciate people stepping up from whatever background and whatever community to remind us all that we are part of a greater humanity and that we can spend our time accentuating our individual differences, but we shouldn't do it in a way to denigrate others, right?

52:05The diversity is beautiful. It is the strength that biology relies on to make sure that we have that resource, that power within our community. None of us can succeed. None of us can do anything as an individual. We rely on this network of humanity. And within our communities, we all have different strengths and perspectives and opinions, which is what actually allows us to progress culturally. I take great pride in the fact that this is a podcast called Radical. where sat in that seat last week was a head teacher called Catherine Birbelsingh who argued the exact opposite, that diversity is not a strength and that anyone who's ever been a leader anywhere knows that unity is a strength.

52:45Have you ever thought about going into politics? I don't know if I would be happy about towing a party line on something that I fundamentally opposed.

52:57I admire these people that, you know, I think democracy and I think the political process, we don't, you know, it is denigrated in the media all the time, is these people that stand up bravely and try and through the process of the law, through the process of our agreed consensus to govern for us, to be our servants in that way, I think they deserve a lot more respect. I mean, obviously there's a lot of exceptions. Guy Vince, author of many books, including Nomad Century, future independent politician for South London. It's a real pleasure and a privilege to chat to you. Thank you so much for coming in and being, well, being radical.

53:40Thank you, Amol. It's been such a pleasure.

53:45We've had some high energy interviews on this podcast and that was big. It was gloriously big picture. You know, it was, as I said to her a couple of times there, it is very, very, very striking when you hear someone shamelessly and proudly advocate for more, not less migration and for making current levels of migration work because we have to and because that would be a good thing. You just don't hear that very often these days. I remember about 15 years ago, a guy called Philip LeGrain wrote a book called Immigrants, Your Country Needs Them. And it was this real defensive migration. I remember The Economist newspaper slash magazine used to advocate for migration in a very, very big way.

54:26And there used to be these little sort of pockets of public life or journalism and media or indeed politics where people would come out and say, actually, we should celebrate migration. Obviously, that was at a time here in the UK of significantly lower migration than we've had in recent years. But you just don't hear it very often. So it did sound pretty radical, frankly, to hear someone come forward and say, well, you need to get used to this fact. And it's a good thing for the migrants and indeed potentially for the host country themselves. But also what I'm finding quite enjoyable is that we've done enough episodes of this podcast now that we're beginning to sort of get exchanges or conversations, even arguments between episodes, which I obviously have the privilege of experiencing because I'm sat in the room with our different guests.

55:11So Gaia Vince said something there about how diversity, essentially, I'm paraphrasing, but she said diversity is a strength. And she did that in the context of London. And she did it about a week after Catherine Birbel Singh, the founder and head teacher of Michaela Community School, who advocates a traditional approach to education, said pretty much the opposite. She said diversity is not a strength. Anyone who's ever led any sort of organisation or been a leader would say that unity is a strength. And she too is from London, though at a different end of the political spectrum, I think, to Gaia Vince.

55:44So that was fun. But I think the kind of intra-radical conversational argument that I found most illuminating was that Gaia Vince and Paul Moreland, if you remember Dr. Paul Moreland, he's the demographer that came on about seven or eight episodes ago. they're both really clear that we face not quite demographic collapse, but a demographic crisis where we're just not basically most countries are just not having as many babies as they need to. And Dr. Paul Morland's solution was, you know, if you are worried about immigration, you just need to have more babies, have more babies, even though very, very few places have been able to make that work.

56:27I can't think of many countries anywhere that have successfully introduced tax or fiscal incentives to encourage people to have more babies and seen that that works. Gaia Vince took the opposite view. She said, having more babies, well, people don't really want to do it. And there are no policies anywhere that works. So you're going to need to, as it were, import them. You're going to need to have higher migration and inward migration to do the work that native populations, quote unquote, are not willing to do. So there you have the same social demographic cultural problem identified by two different guests on this podcast, but then coming up with pretty radically different solutions.

57:05And I think that that's a sign that this podcast is doing exactly what we wanted it to do.

57:15We have had loads of messages, loads and loads and loads about last week's episode with the head teacher, Catherine Birbel Singh. Thank you so much to everyone who has been in touch This one is from David. As a teacher of 14 years experience, one thought I've had listening to Catherine Burble sing is that for many years now, championing the traditional values, the academic rigour, the small c conservatism, is actually far, far easier to do in multicultural inner London than in provincial England. Catherine's pupils are probably the children of parents who themselves have come to London from countries whose educational systems are similarly traditional and hold similar values to Catherine's.

58:00I would challenge Catherine to take her high-achieving brand of education to small-town England, away from the cities, to poorer, whiter communities with lower aspirations and lower prospects, and see if she manages to deliver the same results there. David, what a fantastic message that is. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness, so much to go at. First of all, I would just slightly, if I may, humbly and gently take issue with the blanket view that if you get away to small town England, away from the cities, you get to poorer, whiter communities with lower aspirations and lower prospects. I have, for various reasons, I won't bore you with it too much because it might sound a little bit self-aggrandizing.

58:42Oh, okay, I will do it. When I made some documentaries not so long ago about social mobility, including one called How to Crack the Class Ceiling, I spent quite a lot of time in the southwest of England and also in the northeast, particularly in Hull. And the one thing I'd say is, yes, it might be true that in some of those very, very, very poor parts of small town or non-London Britain, that there are some lower aspirations in some communities. there are also jewels, real, if you like, diamonds in the rough, people that I've come across, I've worked with, I've mentored, I'm still in touch with, who have huge aspirations and who really do share that kind of absolute belief, not just in hard work, but in traditional values when it comes to education.

59:21I did say to a conservative politician, I won't say who because it would get me in trouble, but I did say a few years ago that if the Michaela School proved successful, wouldn't their, you know, a smart and savvy education strategy be to try and unleash a thousand Michaelers across the country if they felt that that was the way to go. And they said, well, there's two issues. One is exactly as you say, David, would there be the same kind of buy-in from other places outside of London? And secondly, you don't have a thousand Catherine Birbel-Sings. And she's obviously a very unique personality. She's very hands-on in running her school, which happens to be in northwest of London.

59:57Really, really, really interesting message, David. Here's another message. And this one's from Richard. Hello, Amal and the Radical team. I really enjoyed the education episode with Catherine Burble-Singh. I wasn't sure about Catherine's narrow view of Britishness. I like Shakespeare, but I don't have a strong passion. Same with King Charles. He isn't sacred to me, and I'd be open to Britain becoming a republic. I'm white, proud and British, but concerned that her view is sort of an older, almost colonial view that tries to freeze a fixed view of Britain. Two things come to mind, Richard. The first is I think that even Catherine would say that, yes, she believes in people singing I vow to my country.

1:00:44And yes, she believes in teaching Shakespeare and dead white men and so on. But even she would say that A, teachers and schools should have some freedom with their curriculum. And B, they should also teach colonial history. They should also talk about the Atlantic slave trade or other slave trades and talk about the East, what some people used to call the Orient. So I don't think she's not against expanding the curriculum to cover other parts of global history. I think she just feels like there is a certain story of Britishness which should be covered as a sort of baseline. I would humbly and gently say to you, though, Richard, I sort of think Shakespeare is an essential unifying aspect of Britishness, just because I think as a country, as a culture, what have you got more than your words?

1:01:29and your words come from your writers. And I think Shakespeare is the greatest writer of them all. And I think, you know, I mean, up there with people like Thomas Gray and John Milton, but I do think that Shakespeare is a unique proposition within this country, more so than, I don't know, Rabindranath Tagore in India or Goethe in Germany. I think Shakespeare is so big and huge in our culture that I think it's incredibly important that kids from all backgrounds do know lots about Shakespeare. And I think that Shakespeare can bring people together. But I take your point, Richard, and I'm very, very grateful indeed for the message.

1:01:59and indeed for all of the messages that we have got. Please do keep them coming in. We love getting them. And, you know, it just makes us feel good about the fact we're building a real community. And by the way, to all of the people who I've bumped into in the street over the past week, and they're saying very, very nice things to be about Radical. And you know who you are. And I always say the same thing, which is send us a voice note. Please do it, because I might even be a little bit biased and try and get you on. I'll have to have a word with the guys behind the glass about that. Anyway, that's going to get me in trouble.

1:02:27Anyway, to get in touch, like David and Richard and loads of other people, please WhatsApp us. The number is 0330 123 9480. That's 0330 123 9480. Or you can email us on radical at bbc.co.uk. Just by the way, if you use that WhatsApp number, remember, if you save that WhatsApp number and you try and send us a message next to the white bar where you type stuff in, there's a little microphone symbol. put your thumb on the microphone symbol and either you can hold it down or swipe up and it will kind of turn into a little lock and then you just talk into your phone and when you're finished you press the send button.

1:03:07That's how you send a voice note. Pleased to be of service to any who needs such guidance.

1:03:15And that is it for this episode. To make sure you don't miss future conversations please subscribe to Radical with Amol Rajan on BBC Sounds. You can also watch episodes. I mean, what could you possibly want to do in life more than to watch episodes of Radical? I can't think of anything better to do with your time. And you can do that, my friends, on iPlayer. Just head to iPlayer, sign in. You've got to pay the licence fee, but it's worth it just for this podcast. Head to iPlayer and search for Radical with a mole rajin, and then Unbounded Joy will greet your eyes. Speak to you next week. Goodbye.

1:03:52If journalism is the first draft of history, What happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.