Is Christianity Becoming Countercultural Again? (Your Radical Questions with Lamorna Ash)

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1:23Hello, I'm James Marriott and welcome to Your Radical Questions, where we put your questions to one of our guests. This is your chance to engage directly with the radical people we have on this podcast and to ask them about their ideas for the future. Lamorna Ashe joins me again. She travelled around Britain meeting young Christians across the religious and political spectrum, exploring what faith might offer a generation facing the unique problems of the modern world. What began as research for her book also became a personal journey, leaving her increasingly open to Christianity. If you haven't heard our last episode where we talk about all of that in detail, then I'd recommend going back to listen.

2:05But today I'll be putting your questions to Lamorna Ashe. Lamorna, thanks for being with us. Hello. How are you doing? I'm really well, how are you doing? Good, it's good to have you back for the questions. Our first one is from Jess, who is asking about religion among younger people and in public life. She's 35 and says that young Christians seem to be tending towards evangelical American-style churches, high church Anglicanism and Catholicism. She's a Catholic herself. She says, having grown up in an age of materialist superficiality, of smug dogmatic atheism that sneers at the primitive instincts and beliefs of religious people, and having been told your whole life that the pursuit of success and fun was the sum total of life's meaning, many of us have been left spiritually bereft.

2:53You'll also likely know that many people, especially women my age and younger, are getting into tarot and astrology. My own conversion journey was escalated by experiences I had during yoga, of all things. What's clear is that many of us have been yearning to find an underlying cosmic purpose to the world and our place in it. Why are some people under 40 finding religion in churches that feel older, more ritualistic or more ecstatic? And why has Christian faith in particular been sidelined as a legitimate viewpoint? Well, there's so much in there. Okay, so one thing that I think is to always both think cultural moment and then also universal things.

3:32And I don't know about you, James, but there's something about getting older where I wonder if this just happens at every single generation that you get to your 30s and And you start looking for deeper meanings because more things are happening to you. You're early 20s. You're working it all out. You're trying to understand things, but you're also really in the way of yourself, I think, in some ways. And then suddenly you're like, oh, what am I doing here? And what is this beautiful love doing to me? And how do I deal with this grief that's happening? So I do wonder if all generations have this moment of coming of age that is later maybe for our generation because we do a lot of things later.

4:06You move out later. You get married later. So I wonder if this always does happen, that people suddenly do start becoming more attuned to spiritual as they hit their early 30s. And what do you make in particular of her feeling that it's older and more ritualistic churches that are appealing to young people? I think I can understand. I'm not sure how wholly true it is because there's some people who are really taken by these mega churches and these spaces that often are in modern buildings or estate churches, churches that are little churches on an estate or are in a cinema sort of half the time.

4:40But I can understand, again, I think it speaks to something we spoke about a lot in the last episode of people looking for places that have a kind of rootedness. And there is that line from, it's just because it's a great poem, but Philip Larkin's Church going about a serious house built on serious ground, this sense of buildings that because of their relationship to time and all these people have travelled through them have this depth of meaning that people can feel and therefore want to go there. And then in terms of things that have rituals, I suppose, again, if there's this kind of anemic quality to much and not all, but much of contemporary society, I sometimes think about it when I'm going through Tesco's and there's not a single person to speak to and these flat screens with whatever, moving images on.

5:28Sounds like I'm an alien. Tesco's not a very spiritual place. Tesco's not a very spiritual place. What I'm trying to say is I was thinking about it sort of as I moved through the world and you're constantly going through places like your Tesco's or whatever, that it's all self-service, that you're so rarely going through built environments that are designed for beauty. There's anti-architecture everywhere that's designed so that you don't want to sit in it. There's public spaces that are secretly private, so you cannot appreciate them. These spaces that are designed for worship, for great feeling, for overbrimming a feeling, I can really understand why that provides an antidote to the banality of everyday life.

6:11And what about the second part of that question? Why has Christian faith been sidelined as a legitimate viewpoint? Do you think there's anything in that? my best friend and I argue all the time and we had a really monumental argument blur crucifix at the Met recently when we're in New York together because and they've read my book and hopefully it shows this complexity of like the there's one element of Christianity that a lot of people are fighting against and say this should be sidelined and often you know it will be because the sexual abuse scandal how can we ever take seriously the authority of the Catholic or anglican church again um the way that christianity was used um as as a kind of like mode of control across so many parts of africa that destroyed old religions um that was meant to be used as civilizing mission how can we take seriously that religion so i understand why and so my friend was saying to me and they were like the symbol of the cross is like this awful symbol of death and i was like well it's actually a symbol of resurrection but fine um but the historical weight of things we're in this period that feels very important that we are talking about the kind of horrors and atrocities that various colonial countries committed and that feels vital but perhaps then when you sideline a whole religion and don't look at the fact that there were always for example like women like julian of norwich had this like beautiful powerful faith that was all about love and was in its way totally separate from the rest of the wider church or yeah liberation theology in Peru and across North America that said we read the Gospels and in there we see that not only should all politics be about supporting the oppressed people but it should come from oppressed people themselves the oppressed should rise up at this Marxist element to it and so I think perhaps it's laziness that allows us to sideline all of Christianity or it's also that there's something about walking around the world and knowing you're like a white British person and thinking, gosh, my country has caused so much tragedy.

8:03And if I can at least not align myself with Christianity, then I'm distinguishing myself from some of the horrors of my country's past. But I think, again, I would say, yeah, there's so many more bits of Christianity that were always pacifist movements, that were always against the way that it was being abused and abused by the powers that be. The other thing I wanted to pick up on in Jess's question was the idea that the story of the young people you're talking to who are converting to Christianity, also belongs to a slightly wider, less definable story, which has to do with things like tarot and astrology and other kinds of spiritual openness.

8:41Do you think these things are connected? Yeah, I think that this has always been there. Like when you look again at William James' period, like spiritualism and this constant moments of how to understand the strangeness of the world, and maybe it wouldn't be through organized religion. It would always be what are the ways, how do we deal with the coincidence, or the desire for my life to have meaning and purpose and directionality. And so I think there is definitely a connection between, again, getting older, like you leave school, suddenly there's these endless choices. You're comparing yourself to people in a different way and being like, how do I root myself here at all?

9:15How do I feel like I'm on a ship where I've actually got control of the rudder? So I do think that there's probably a similar motivation behind people following things like tarot and finding other forms of spiritual practice to feel rooted, to feel connected, as with a religious faith. I guess what I think in tarot and no less so yoga has a kind of morality to it, but things like tarot, I think they can, and this might be because I always get horrible cards and get really angry when people do tarot on me, but it somehow doesn't speak enough to the wider world. Like where's the teaching of morality within it?

9:48Where's the sense of like, this is how you live communally. Like I think it is, to me, can feel at its worst like a paler form of what religion can be. Yeah, so I sometimes wonder if not all of them are alike and not all of them feel is like equally valuable in society to kind of take a political route around it. But I always think they're all deeply, deeply human desire to understand what's going on more in your life and where you're going. Thank you, Jess, for your question. The next question is from none other than historian, author and friend of the Radical podcast, Tom Holland. His book Dominion argues that Western secular moral values like human rights, equality and care for the weak are not universal constants, but are fundamentally Christian in origin.

10:34He sent us this voice note. We live in a country with an established church. It has been Christian for a thousand years or more. And so, of course, Christianity is literally established, certainly in England. But I was wondering now, among younger generations, is that sense of it as something belonging to the establishment changing? And might it start to be seeming almost countercultural? Hi, Tom Holland. You're amazing. I think that yes and we talked about this again previously James and I on the podcast the mistrust of all institutions feels like baked into everyone's experience now that we know that there is so much awful stuff going on at all times that there will be funding into terrible things that you have to protest against or it just continues happening so you come of age with this deep skepticism of all institutions and yet you learn how you want to engage with them anyway so perhaps what young people are experiencing now is on the one hand saying to join Quakers, to join a Pentecostal church, a Orthodox church, you know, whatever Eastern Orthodox church it might be, or Catholic churches, to deal with the fact these have horrendous histories and to find ways that you can still exist within them.

11:59But I think, yes, you're right that there is also this sense that say right now what's happening with Catholicism, what's happening with Pope Leo XIV, is this feeling that he is speaking to power, which does make him countercultural, that at one point, the Catholic Church was, you know, always in bed with the powers that be, was so deeply connected to that form of like, imperial power, and now isn't. And to have again, to talk about this incredible encyclical that Pope Blair the 14th made about AI, of him saying that the danger of people who don't have a sense of justice, who are the richest people in the world, people like billionaires we now understand have so much more power than say church authority to really change and perhaps wreck the world then actually the value of saying these are people who seem to speak outside of big business outside of capitalism maybe that does feel counter-cultural and faith again churches religion become a space to speak to power from outside of it to an extent i think something else that's interesting is that i think a lot of religious authority figures are quite keen not to see an establishment now.

13:03I think if you were like a bishop in the 1950s or 60s, you'd have been quite proud of your position in the establishment. But as you say, figures like Pope Leo almost consciously trying to lead away from that traditional image of Christianity, I think. So the church is changing as well. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. And I wonder that you could say you could give a kind of generous read on that of because they are aware that it's damaging to be part of an institution and also can exist outside of it and can feel that that they don't have to go through those channels. Then also there maybe is a cynical read there too of perhaps, I'm less sure about Catholic churches quite so much, but maybe more orthodox churches saying, you know, again, they're all liberal, woke arenas, come here for the truth that is counter-cultural and outside of that.

13:50I guess, though, the pushback to that would be that a lot of people would say, for all that church membership is declining, churches are still unbelievably wealthy, powerful institutions. and is it ever possible to find something that feels countercultural in an institution that owns loads of land, has a lot of money and still does probably have a lot of power? Yeah, I think the great difficulty, I suppose that's why, say, there's something so interesting about the fact that a pope like Leo XIV would have first of all spent, you know, he spent 20 or so years in Peru where he was a bishop but living among people completely unlike him, somewhere so dissimilar from the Vatican.

14:27And it's something I always think that politicians have to do as well, of like have an experience of life where you are outside of those institutions within the actual world with people who are suffering and struggling and so you can't get away from the fact that the institutions that then the big churches in the world do have this enormous power and then it's so strange to think that they're speaking about the weak will inherit the earth and we need this kind of radical justice but I think that figures even within those institutions can speak out against them and then there's so many much smaller churches they're completely struggling like the The Quakers, by their nature, are not looking to make lots of money.

15:02We'll always have these small meeting houses where, at best, they will also be offering below market rent housing for Quakers and people upstairs. There's like peripheral, on the edges, fuzzy border Christian groups that don't have access to that money. But definitely the Church of England. And there is that hypocrisy involved in preaching to people and saying that, you know, being aware of the suffering in terms of wealth and then knowing that you have this incredibly expensive house that you were given by the church to live in in central London, say. Thank you to the great Tom Holland for that question.

15:37The next one is from listener Jules. Does Lamorna think Christianity is where people with low self-esteem go or experiencing an existential crisis? my view is that christianity doesn't offer a solution to mental health issues it offers amnesia and outsources one's agency in other words it doesn't solve psychological problems it adds to them brian in monty python's life of brian put it this way you don't need me you don't need anyone Work it out for yourselves. Tell us what you really think, Jules. Oh, gosh. Yes, okay. I find that hard to respond to because I think you've come in with a really certain idea, which is that it can only be this like palliative Christianity as this thing that is maybe like puts a band-aid on a much larger wound.

16:31But I think that within, again, I've been to so many different kinds of churches over the years now. and one I don't think it's just people who are suffering with like mental health problems that go there but I do think it's extraordinary that churches can be spaces for people who are really suffering and struggling to find a balm that is not just medical and is not just you know we'll put you on a wait list for something but it's like let us tend to you and come here each week and here you'll be listened to like to be listened to is such a valuable thing when most of us spend most of the time with a kind of automated phone call trying to get through to mental health services and i think again like maybe if i took a christian answer they would say that there's a very profound deeper meaning of christianity that is so not about palliative that is so not about struggling when just coming when you're suffering and then leaving again but it's about teaching about morality and a way of life um and connecting you to a god who is love as some people might say um and therefore giving you this whole new lens with which to view the world that can influence your every moment of it.

17:34I think often when I kind of struggle with a more banal reading of Christianity that takes just one form of it and is therefore easier to reject out of hand, then I go to complex spiritual literature and try and read Augustine's Confessions or Julian of Norwich's Revelations of Divine Love and see that the wrestling with it, these are not just sick people, which is also not a problem in itself, but there is a rigorous, beautiful, complicated intellectual struggling with Christianity that has always existed. And I would hate to kind of deny that and say that, yeah, people just use it as a balm when they're struggling.

18:07Thank you, Jules. Here's a question from Matt, who says, Hi, Lamorna and James. To what extent has modern spirituality replaced traditional religious concepts and therefore made it harder for traditional religion to ever make a comeback? I'm talking about things like karma, the phrase, everything happens for a reason, horoscopes, crystals, manifestation and energy? Oh, that's a good question. I think sometimes they actually can get completely integrated in that you hear, to bring up the Kardashians, they both are very serious Christians and have this kind of prosperity gospel. Sometimes Kim Kardashian prays to do well in her law exams, but also always manifesting for the future.

18:54And it's kind of interesting how these things can get coupled together and people seem not to mind to have modern spirituality together with religion. Yeah, and I wonder, I suppose there is a way of looking at religion and spirituality as these competing frameworks. Perhaps that is the case that people feel safer and more comfortable to engage with modern forms of spirituality. I wonder how I often think about mindfulness within this, of this ability to calm down and notice your thoughts. But once again, it's a private experience that doesn't take you elsewhere. And I suppose one thing that I mean, I think things like yoga can definitely become like a community experience, but something that maybe religion has that is at least dissimilar enough that it will continue being of value to people is the space of a church, of a sacred house that you go to weekly, that you have these kind of traditional rituals or frameworks around it that are very dissimilar to kind of the way that you can engage in quite a kind of haphazard, irregular way with some forms of modern spirit.

19:56spirituality. But yeah, I often find that they do get interwoven and it will kind of come up within church in this interesting way that it all speaks to us trying to, again, out of the randomness of life, modern spirituality seems to be finding patterns and ways of making meaning with it. And perhaps some people would regard Christianity as doing something similar. The way sometimes people talk about their relationship with Jesus, to me, feels more like how I would regard modern spirituality of you know i knew that i was going to make it through this day because jesus gave me a temper note on the floor and this sort of way of like finding what i might describe as coincidences and to another person is an example of faith um so i think they're interwoven and that's really well put and i often think that maybe it's the case that christianity is somewhat less alien than it originally seems because we tend to underestimate how in minor ways we're constantly spiritualising our lives by believing that everything happens for a reason or having minor superstitions or believing in luck.

20:53And somehow, perhaps a lot of people are closer to a less strictly rational worldview than they think. And perhaps that means Christianity is less completely freakishly outside of the mainstream of modern culture than it sometimes seems. I think absolutely. I think that's so true. Something that really stuck in my mind is that I was working on a really strange project on a search and rescue vessel that goes out into the med to try and save people who try to make the crossing to the mediterranean and someone said everything happens for a reason and one of the women who works on the boat said how can you say anything like that when we have this like all this um plenty within our lives and safety and security and those people are trying to make the crossing and many of them are dying on the route and i think it made me see a difference at least to how i would think about religious faith and this idea of like manifesting and everything happens for a reason that to me it would be impossible to believe that someone has chosen for me to have this like easy affluent like british life like that just feels so almost against what religion ought to be and so i find that then i find a christian framework easier than a kind of um you know i manifested and it came true for me because i just i can't understand that in a world that has so much suffering whereas actually in christian arguments around suffering or any religious arguments around suffering to me there's a more moral ethical element that like makes me understand more of the kind of horrors of what happens in the world and the choices we don't have within that the lack of freedom within that it's just one weird thing i thought about that thank you matt this next question is from michael who asks does Does the attraction of Christianity for Gen Z reflect a non-material, intrinsic validation of individual worth?

22:39A non-material, intrinsic validation of human worth. I mean, it could be if there is this feeling that in the moment, and maybe again, AI plays into this, of this, what it means to be human becoming degraded, not feeling like you are treated well within a workplace, not being able to get a job if you're in need and all these different things that mean that you are made to feel less human, then definitely a faith that at its root says the human dignity of every single person, then I think that that is a really compelling thing to hear in a moment when we're told that some humans matter more than others, that it could be like an extraordinary thing to hear, a quite radical thing to hear.

23:18Yeah, I think the idea of a backlash against materialism maybe has something in it. And I think, I sometimes think maybe an underrated force in modern culture is people's dissatisfaction with an entirely materialistic society that we live in. I think definitely. And I think maybe that is, again, just that this shift in the 90s of this sense of like surplus and there being more and more and wanting more and more and realising it doesn't give you any pleasure or happiness and you can get caught in this terrible cycle. and there is I think that beauty of going to a church at the shock of somewhere where you don't have to pay on entry the shock of somewhere where there isn't an obvious material gain where you know your your clothing doesn't matter your body doesn't matter it is about this thing of like the soul and our connection to one another that is really quite extraordinary and and does seem to go against materialism and then the gospels do too that when you read the kind of the parables of Christ so much of it is about karma as you are, that, you know, the meat will inherit the earth, that like, I think of that part of the Bible that is repeated so often, and I think for really good reason, because it is shocking and surprising and excellent for that reason, that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

24:28And yeah, so I think that thing of turning against materialism and saying that that is written within the Bible must be quite exciting for a young person to find this like alternative way to make the world legible. Really interesting. Thank you to Michael and thank you to everyone who sent in questions and thank you to you, Lamorna, for answering them. Thank you so much for having me, James, and thanks for your questions, everyone. Radical will be back with another episode on Thursday, but for me, it's goodbye.

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