Should Phones Be Banned in Pubs? (Your Radical Questions with Oisín Rogers)

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0:57Amol Rajan:Hello and welcome to your Radical Questions. This is where I put your questions to one of our magnificent Radical guests. And once again, you've got very much involved, taking the opportunity to engage with the inspirational, interesting, influential people that we have on this podcast. And today, as you will know by now, We've got one of the country's most celebrated publicans, pub owners, known for turning the Guinea Grill in Mayfair into one of the great institutions before co-founding the Devonshire in Soho, which has been named the UK's number one gastropub for 2026. In our Thursday episode, which if you haven't heard, you must go back and listen to, we talked about the really radical changes happening in the world of pubs.

1:37Amol Rajan:The fact that two of them are closing every single day. And if that rate were to continue, big if, there will be none left in 2050. that's probably not going to happen because some pubs are very very successful and very very loved one of them is run by Oshin and he's got some pretty radical ideas on how you can fix the decline of pubs if you haven't heard it yet do go back and listen to that main podcast but for now it's wonderful to have you here and Oshin it's wonderful to have you here as well are you feeling ready for some radical questions I am I feel ready but I don't know what the questions are going to be so this is coming from the hip as usual with me okay as usual we've got a lot of people who um like you believe very strongly in the pub as an institution and we're going to hear from them now the first question thank you to chris who has sent us this voice note from the sunny south coast hi oisin and amal my name is chris rowe i work as a bartender with the duke of wellington in shore and by sea down here on the south coast of england not far from brighton the owner of the welly and founder of the dark star brewery rob jones died just a few weeks ago his influence and love for the pub will be much missed and he leaves a great legacy behind him.

2:49Amol Rajan:One of his wishes for the Welly was that it becomes a cooperative venture where the management and staff all have a vested interest in the day-to-day running of the pub. I would love to know what Oshin's thoughts are on pubs becoming cooperatives. Do you have any experience of this as a business model and can you see a future in pubs being managed this way? my thanks to you both and hey pop in for a pint should you be down this way there's always some live music and real ale to be had or as mr jones would say live ale and real music all the best guys cheers chris thank you very much indeed and sorry to hear about the death of rob jones it's really interesting chris if i may say that you raise this idea of a cooperative venture i'll put your question to ashine in just a moment but i will say that the whole idea of mutuals and cooperatives is something that actually got a lot of momentum 15 years ago at the start of the coalition government.

3:45Amol Rajan:Well, lots of people saying, is this something that could be the sort of manifestation of the big society that could be spread across? And of course, I guess if you're talking about pubs as social institutions, which serve the community, there's a case for saying maybe the people that work there should, as you say, Chris, have a vested interest in the day-to-day running of the pub. Chris's question, O'Sheen, is do you have any experience with this as a business model? Can you see a future in pubs being managed in this way? First of all, thanks Thanks, Chris. I know the well Ian Shuram. Do you?

4:12I'm going to take him up on the offer of Poppin' for some live music. To echo what Amal said, condolences on the loss of Rob, a titan of the industry and a top man. Do you know? Of course, yeah. Founded Darkstar. Top, top, top geezer. Oh, wow. I think, you know, the greatest pubs are all sort of weirdly owned by their regulars and stakeholders. People have a bit of them in their heart. and you know I like to think that about ours that the people who walk in and come in every day should have a funny type of ownership and association and be recognised by us and I think to take that to a higher level where you have a community who actually has a chunk of it in terms of ownership and direction is a really really good way to maintain its timelessness and sustainability so Chris I wish you the very best to look with that and I think it's a fabulous idea.

5:06Amol Rajan:It's interesting what you say about that sense of ownership. It's a bit like the kind of people who attend a pub have a kind of moral ownership, which may be... I like that. Roger Scruton, the conservative philosopher, had this wonderful phrase, who really believed in country pubs and spent a lot of time in them, including those that celebrated country pursuits, like fox hunting, which he was a big fan of, talked about how pubs, and I love the phrase, he said pubs added to the moral savings of the community. That sense that, you know, you get savings, which are material and financial, but you get moral savings.

5:33Amol Rajan:And that institution of the round and that exchange of hospitality and generosity. This is my round. No, it's my round. No, it's my round. I love that idea of adding to the moral savings of the community. Okay, there you go, Chris. There's a sort of vindication and a thumbs up for the idea of cooperatives and mutuals. I should say that I think genuinely, I think that one of the things that Andy Burnham's government, if he does become the prime minister, will look into is whether or not that cooperative model could be extended. There are lots of famous cooperatives, not least the John Lewis group, of course, or the John Lewis partnership, I should say.

6:03Amol Rajan:Thank you, Chris. Here is a question from Ellie in Bradford. Hi Amal. Hi Oshin. My question is about some of the stricter social customs in some more old-fashioned pubs. Things such as no big groups, no swearing, definitely no laptops, and maybe a slight bit of hostility from the landlord. Personally, I'm quite partial to it, but I'm sure it must drive others away. I'd be interested if you think these customs are outdated or worth preserving. Thank you. Fantastic question. Slight bit of hostility from the landlord. What do you think about those customs, the old customs, the sort of no big roots, no swearing, definitely no laptops?

6:41I think that each has its own merits and each should be looked at on its own. Some of the best pubs in the world ever have been run by fabulous characters and that still stands today. And a lot of those characters are eccentric and they might have the occasional eccentric rule. And I think having those adds colour, it adds something to talk about and, you know, it gives stories to tell. And, you know, I don't particularly want to go into a pub where everybody's using the Wi-Fi on their laptop and staring at a screen. I think pubs are the opposite to that. So the one that we do have is a no laptops rule in the bar because it kind of takes the focus away from the other people and I think that's a good rule.

7:28I think no big groups, we wouldn't have any truck with that, but I can understand why some high street businesses might think that's a very, very good idea. For example, you know, groups of lads on a stag. You don't necessarily want them all coming in when everyone's trying to have a chat and a quiet pint and a scotch egg. So it's horses for courses and I think every landlord of every pub should be allowed to make his own rules and I think that is the British tradition and I would stick with it.

7:54Amol Rajan:Here's all, indeed, her own rules because there's some amazing female pub landlords. Some of the very best, by the way. I was with Sandra at the Golden Heart in Spitalfields last week. She's going to be celebrating, been there 50 years next year. And she's somebody that would be wonderful on a podcast. Might well ask her on. How do you feel about phones? I mean, you don't have a no phones rule, but is it a little bit of kind of... I think to put a rule in to stop people from using their phone for information is silly. I think it's up to us to provide an atmosphere where we take the focus away from people using phones.

8:27and I hope people don't use phones as much as they might in other places because they should be engaged with the staff and with the people around them. I think actual taking of loud phone calls on a phone in a public space is pretty antisocial and I remember the Guinea had a very small bar and I had a very specific sign, please don't take mobile phone calls inside because there's nothing worse than somebody having a row with his wife while you're trying to have a quiet pint.

8:56Amol Rajan:Elliot, thank you so much for that voice. I think the slightly hostile landlord is an absolutely fundamental part of British history. And I would fight for that person. I'd like to mention and celebrate Norman Ballon, who passed away last week at 99 years old. He ran the Coaching Horses on Greek Street in Soho from 1943 up until his retirement in 2006 at 79 years old. And he still visited the pub every month up until a couple of weeks ago. May he rest in peace. the rudest landlord in history. Notoriously, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Greek Street is in Soho. Yes, yes, yes. The coaching horses.

9:35Amol Rajan:Goodness knows if this person is still around and I can't remember his name. I feel terrible. When I started out in newspapers, I worked at a great newspaper called The Independent and we were based in the Docklands, two stops on the Docklands Light Railway on from Canary Wharf. There was a place called South Quay and every Friday evening, sometimes a Thursday evening as well, we'd go to a pub called The North Pole and the landlord in there, I forget your name, dear sir. And if you're listening, please remember this is said with affection. He was brutal. You would say to him, I'm sorry, man, I think this beer's gone off.

10:04Amol Rajan:And he'd say, just drink it, would you? Just effing drink it, would you? And he had absolutely zero interest whatsoever in the opinions on his produce of the people in there. And you know what? We kept coming back. We kept coming back. We loved it. That eccentricity is so attractive. Legendary part. And it's nice to be contrary and radical. You must have worked in many a pub where things, when things get a little bit leery, how do you decide when leery is too leery? I've been a landlord for 35 years. I think the best lesson anyone ever taught me about any kind of conflict or unpleasantness is you have to take a step back and assess and understand the situation before going in.

10:47And I think that's the best lesson. I think if you actually step back and see what's going on, you can pick it apart and work out a way to diffuse it and that's usually by speaking nicely

10:56Amol Rajan:to the to the right person much like parenting uh ellie thank you very much indeed for that question ellie this is uh another question we've got loads of questions for you actually we'll do a couple more at least because i want to make sure that listeners are heard this is a question that's coming from dan hi radical i'm dan from somerset i had a question about the decline of pubs in the uk do you think that the main cause of this decline has been a shift towards a culture more focused on bars etc or has this decline in pubs caused this cultural shift thank you dan thank you very much indeed it's a the public conversion of the chicken and egg situation with pubs and bars has the decline in pubs been driven by a shift of people moving towards bars or have people move towards bars because of the decline in pubs?

11:45I don't know if either is true. What I do know is that people have limited leisure time and people want to work out where the best place to go is for their leisure time. So where 50 years ago pubs were only competing with football, cricket and tennis, we're now competing with perhaps cinema. We're now competing with TV, with Netflix, with big sport, with concerts, with gigs, with bars, with different types of restaurants, with all sorts of different types of going out and also different types of staying in. So, I mean, that has fractionated it a little bit, but I do like to think that we're surviving a lot better than people think we are because good pubs are still doing well.

12:27Amol Rajan:What's the difference between a pub and a bar? And what does a pub have that a bar doesn't? It's a really difficult question. I think it's a massive long spectrum. And then this becomes a three-dimensional spectrum as well when you think about, you know, wet pub against gastropub on the Y axis. And then you think about pub and bar on an X axis. So a bar is kind of more trendy, bright lights, standing, more cocktails, more late night. Whereas pub is more every day, all day, more towards pints and more towards democratic mix of drinkers. You've got gastropub, which is more towards food and wet pub, which is more towards drink.

13:05So I think that's what you need to think about. And in any place, whether it's a Weatherspoons or an All Bar One or a Green King pub or a Young's pub or an Independent, you should plot them on that sort of piece of paper rather than defining them as one. You're a very celebrated publican. Do you enjoy bars? I do enjoy bars. I do. Do you enjoy cocktails? I'm not a cocktail drinker. I have a rule that I personally don't drink spirits. It's just I have some funny rules and that's one of mine. For taste reasons? Taste reasons and control reasons as well. I like to drink pints that are low in alcohol because I know I can drink three or four without them making too much difference to me.

13:42And being drunk is not something I ever want to be. Really? Honestly, no, it's not. I might have a bottle of wine now and again when I'm on holiday or if I'm having a really nice meal. But no, I'm a man who likes three or four pints. I didn't know that about you. Well, there you go. I find it much more sociable. I think the idea of drinking a larger quantity of lower alcohol is a much more sociable thing, particularly with friends over a period of time. And that's the point of pubs as well.

14:08Amol Rajan:Is there almost a kind of moral argument for citizens? If we want to support pubs, you can sort of drink better. I'll be honest with you, I love a spirit. I love a spirit. I really, really, you know, obviously for our younger listeners, it's very important to do this in a controlled environment and make sure you're legally able to do it. I love rum. I love gin and tonic. I love all those sorts of things. Is there a case for, would it be helpful to pubs if we kind of all drank a bit more like you do, which is longer, weaker drinks? I can't say for sure whether that's true, but my favourite pub visitors are people who do that because they tend to be able to stay a bit longer, get more involved and become part of the furniture and character of the place, rather than just nipping in and out for a couple of liveners.

14:52Amol Rajan:No, no, no. So, you know, we want to build relationships with the people who come in, and quite often the ladies and gents who come in and just have a few pints in a chat and wander off again and then come back a few days later. It sort of builds really great relationships with us and add colour, character and stories to what we do. Next time I go into a pub, I'm going to think about what I'm contributing to the walls. You know, what do you, obviously you take something, but what do you give? And if you drink a nice, lower alcohol, longer drink, maybe you're giving something to the pub in a way that you're not when you have a delicious...

15:27Amol Rajan:I love when that happens. You know, you get solo travellers or people who just come in to hide who'll do that. And, you know, hiding in pubs is really important. If you think about how traditional pubs all had frosted windows and those partitions and little nooks and crannies, they're so important to be able to go in there. And, you know, you can have a pint on your own or with a mate or you can meet somebody for a chat or you might just be shoulder to shoulder with somebody very, very interesting. You might only come in for one pint and stay for three. I love seeing that it happens all the time and how do you feel about sport being on how do you feel about I think pubs who show sport and are really good at doing it are fantastic you know we have an interest in the Marlborough in Mayfair which is showing the World Cup now it's packed for all of that it's not the way I've done it I'm not a fan of having TVs in pubs but that's purely a foible of mine and I make it work I think the great thing about pubs is they're all different and pubs always always think about the environment they're in and who they're looking after.

16:29And, you know, if there are pubs that want to show cricket, golf, tennis, football, long may they continue and be really good at it.

16:37Amol Rajan:Dan, thank you very much indeed for that question. Much appreciated. This is another one and it's from Florence in gorgeous, beautiful Bury St Edmunds. Hi, Oshina Namal. I think so much of what makes a good hospitality experience is the little touches. For example, my mum and I went to a restaurant the other day and they lent her reading glasses to help read their menu. my question is what are some small things that pub teams can implement that cost nothing but leave a lasting impression on guests i think attention to detail is so important in what you see and what you feel and what you touch and like simple things like making sure if someone sticks chewing gum underneath the the edge of the bar that we clean it every day but and making sure that there's nothing there that's annoying is is the most important but you know having a good welcome or being made to feel that you're generously welcomed into the world that we've created is the centre of what we do.

17:32And sometimes you'll spot somebody in the corner who's not quite happy. And we have a way of knowing from people's faces that they're not as happy as they should be. We'll send someone over and go, everything all right, mate? And it might be, oh, well, I don't like the wine. And if that happens, I'll take the wine away and give them a really great glass of wine no matter what also you know in terms of marketing and making people feel comfortable the best marketing a pub landlord can do is to buy someone a pint you know you see somebody who's who's nice and having a bit of crack they'll just go those two are on me just have a couple of beers there you go the reading glasses thing we've got a box of reading glasses even if people are reading a book or they can't see their phone just go here there you go and like we buy them for like 99 ph and there's a box of them there also you know phone chargers why not have a million phone chargers behind the bar as well somebody wants to charge their phone we'll just give them the charger let them plug it in crack on little things like that I'm thinking of other little bits and pieces like that oh yeah we have in the restaurant we have what's called a medicine cabinet which is all the free bottles of fizzy wine and dessert wine that suppliers give us so they're not on the stock so anyone who's like got a complaint or maybe their meal is a little bit late or they're not feeling 100 % We'll just open the medicine cabinet, open a bottle, give them a little glass of something.

18:52And we find that that will make people feel a little bit more welcome and a little bit more safe. And I love that that Florence told the story about the reading glasses, because that's exactly the point. We want people to walk out with great stories to tell, which is exactly Florence did. And thank you to her.

19:09Amol Rajan:And the thing that through our culture of food and the perfection and the TV programs, the level of attention of detail that we have around gastronomy and food and cooking and being a chef in this country, you have tried to bring something of that, a lot of that. As many, many publicans, you're not unique in this, many, many publicans do as well to making sure that in particular, this beer that goes through taps is exceptional quality. And there's actually a huge amount that people may not realise needs to go into trying to make sure that the thing in your bottle. And we now have huge beer festivals and craft ale and, you know, there's a real wonderful culture around Britain and this country.

19:46Amol Rajan:But it's also about making sure that the drink that people drink when it's not spirits coming out of a bottle, but the drink that goes through your machines, because they are machines, is exceptional by particularly trying not to stress the beer out, for instance, by making the journey quite short. That's really important. and we thought about that long and hard when we were doing it and that's not just for the stouts but also for the lagers and for the traditional British real ales as well which really I'm a huge fanatic for because it's the best way to drink beer and that's what I drink by the way.

20:15Amol Rajan:Well British beer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm one for stouts. Well next time we go for a pint I'm going to introduce you to a really good real ale in a really good pub and I think I'm going to try and convert you. What makes a good real ale? Well the thing about real ale is it's made in the same way for the last thousand years. It's a bit like artisan bread. You know, they mix proper ingredients together. The gas that's in the beer, the fizziness, comes from the natural fermentation. The publican needs to do the secondary fermentation in the cellar to clear it out and make sure it's perfect for service.

20:46It's also pulled up to the bar using the old-fashioned beer engine. So it's the strength of the barman's arm that pulls it up from the cellar rather than, you know, a gas system. it's a really timeless ancient beautiful way to sell beer and we're very proud to do it well

21:03Amol Rajan:Talking to you makes me want to come to a pub and drink with you I have this absolutely overwhelming desire for a pint I might actually just secretly sneak off to a local institution and get myself a pint of Stout It's such a privilege to talk to you I've really enjoyed it Amol Not only are you so passionate about it there's an urgency to what you're talking about a social urgency and you've got some pretty radical ideas. But there is just something cool about talking to someone who's the top of the game. And I now have an overwhelming desire to go and drink some stout. Go and have a few pints.

21:38Amol Rajan:Go and have a few pints. Thank you so much. And thank you for all your questions. Not least that last one from you, Florence. Hope that answered it well for you. Thanks to Oshin for answering them. I'll be back with another episode of Radical on Thursday. Until then, thank you for your time. But from me and from Oshin Rogers, it's goodbye.

22:01Amol Rajan:How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.