Will Conservation Become More Mainstream? (Your Radical Questions with Chris Packham)

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we get started with this episode, I just wanted to let you know about a last minute and very, very, very exciting addition to our guest lineup.

0:49Because later this week, I'm going to be talking to the musician and campaigner Jordan Stevens from the band Rizzle Kicks about the impact that pornography is having on young men. If you want to ask him a question about that or the work he does on modern masculinity, please get in touch with us with a voice note on WhatsApp. The number is 0330 123 9480, 0330 123 9480. Or you can email us on radical at bbc.co.uk. Now, here's this week's episode of Your Radical Questions with Chris Packham. Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Radical Questions, where I put your questions to one of our brilliant radical guests.

1:33This is your chance to engage very directly with the super smart, super interesting and influential people that we have on this podcast and ask them about their ideas for the future. You may know by now that we're speaking to the one and only Jamie Oliver. If you've got questions for him about the health of our nation, about dyslexia, about his brilliant career as a chef and TV superstar, send them in as a voice note to our WhatsApp. The number is 0330 123 9480. Or you can email us on radical at bbc.co.uk. But this week, the wildlife presenter, the documentary maker, the activist, the nature conservationist, the broadcaster, the campaigner, Chris Packham.

2:12Chris, are you ready for some questions from our listeners? I am indeed. 1346 Cressy, 1415 Agincourt. Am I ahead of the game? This is deep and clever. I think I know what you're doing. We're not even going to do this because this belongs to the listeners. Here we go. Dan has been in touch to ask the following. How frustrated are you that we have created and live within a vast global system of consumption? And do you see a way to make it more compatible with climate conservation? Yeah, that's interesting. So can we make consumption more compatible with climate conservation? It's difficult, isn't it?

2:48Because I'm going to walk out of here and I'm not going to travel more than 150 metres before I would have seen any number of enticing advertisements asking me to consume. And it's very much part and parcel of our life in this part of the world that, you know, we are bombarded constantly, you know, with instructions to consume, you know. And we're all victims of it. I'm a victim of it. I went to a wardrobe this morning and I thought, which coat shall I wear? Now, when I was a kid, we had our summer coat and we had our winter coat. We had two coats. And now I draw back my wardrobe door and I look in and I've got a choice of coats.

3:25I only need one coat for the winter. But I've, you know, I've bought other coats. You know, so it's an ingrained part because we are being, you know, manipulated constantly to consume. There is no doubt about that. I'm a real supporter of ad-free cities. You know, I would much rather not see adverts. I'd rather see art. Go to the bus stop and there's a picture of Van Gogh's sunflowers or something stimulating to look at. Poetry, something to read. And we do see pushback, don't we? On the tube, people write, you know, poems on those sandwich boards. That's so much better than an advert for something that you frankly don't need or is bad for you.

4:01so yeah I resent all of that and do you know what I often do is I look at my mobile phone and I show it to people and I say you know what's the cost of this and it's about a thousand pounds you know it's a thousand pounds it's cost and I'm like what's the environmental cost of that because it's not a thousand pounds you know there's suffering in there there's there's exploitative labor in there there's precious metals there's carbon miles there's lots of stuff that doesn't isn't factored in the pounds in that and then I ask the question does that mobile phone make me happy? Does it make me happy?

4:31And if it does make me happy, what proportion of time is it making me happy to the time it makes me miserable or puts me under stress? And then I say to them, see those two black poodles? See those two black poodles that I'm going to take for a walk? What proportion of the time do they make me happy? And they make me happy every time I let them off their lead. I call them my joy grenades. I explode with happiness. So consuming stuff, upgrading stuff, That doesn't make you happy. It's the simple things in life that make us happy. But, you know, to answer that question, are we going to be able to turn all of this around, take all the adverts down, put all the art up, all the stimulating things that would enhance our lives, make us feel better about ourselves rather than make us feel inadequate because we can't afford this or we can't get one of those this week or my phone.

5:16oh the camera's not as good as the last one i mean i mean it's a system change of beyond magnitude but we can do it as individuals we can do it as individuals we can refute that we can say i'm not going i mean people on average we upgrade our phones every 18 months in the uk that's just bonkers you don't need to forget the phone and if enough individuals do it then the power of social norms would mean that other people do it and you change society pick up your kids go to the park Suck, sit in the garden, have a cuddle, smell them, stick your nose behind their ear, sniff that because one day they're going to grow up and they'll be gone.

5:53You know, suck life up. Don't let materialism suck you in. Maffey has got a question. He says, I very much enjoyed last week's interview with James Rebanks and would like to ask Chris Packham a question. I'd also like to add that I thought Chris paid fine tribute to Jane Goodall following her passing. My question is, can you see a Britain where conservation is more mainstream? Thank you for that, Maffi, and thank you, Dan, before that. Yeah, more mainstream. I mean, I think that it's certainly more mainstream already than it is in many other parts of the world. I moved to France once and I took some bird boxes out and I was painting them on the doorstep.

6:27My bemused neighbours came up and stood around and asked me what they were. And this was in southwestern France. They'd never seen a bird box. So I gave them all a bird box, of course, put up in the garden. The following year, I was just struggling to clean the kitchen one day and the furious banging on the door, my neighbour dragged me around to see that a pair of great tits had moved into his bird box. So just to put that into perspective, broaden that one little anecdote, we spend in excess of£350 million feeding the birds in the UK every year. The rest of Western Europe spends about£150. So we are invested in our wildlife in the UK.

7:02We still live in one of the most nature depleted set of nations in the world, however. so I think that conservation does need to become more mainstream we're talking about having a GCSE in in nature study finally that might might come to pass who knows but look we do our bit you know we we make our our programs and we constantly communicate and try and educate people as to the value of life and and I think that Covid had a you know a positive impact there because so many people found solace in nature and they'd be saying you know the birds are singing louder and it's like no actually it's just the traffic's not there or i've never heard these birds before and it's not actually you've heard them it's just you've never listened to them before you know and i think coming out the back of that a lot of people realize that the value to their mental health their you know they're perhaps reducing calm and inducing anxiety and and the value of having that life around them thank you very much indeed maffie for that question this is from eva collins who got in touch with me on instagram thank you very much indeed for that eva let's hear this question.

8:03Hi Chris and Amal. I just wanted to hear your thoughts Chris on land use. Do you believe that land sparing or land sharing is the best approach for a more sustainable agriculture in the UK? Land sparing being working smaller areas more intensively and leaving the rest of the space for rewilding? Or land sharing where agriculture and nature coexist in a more holistic manner which obviously requires more land? Love to know your thoughts. Thanks. Thank Thank you, Eva. Over to you, Chris. Yeah, I'm fortunate to know a few really, you know, what I call good, good farmers. One of them has one of the most beautiful farms, one of the most beautiful places in the UK.

8:38It's called Cholderton, Henry Edmonds, near Andover in Hampshire. Every time I go there, I'm completely uplifted. He's a brilliant naturalist and he farms with nature in that way. He does it sort of empathetically and he does it through his enormous knowledge and connection with the natural world. in another part of North Hampshire there's another farm where everything's done technologically every tract has satellite tract every piece of that soil is tested and what the farmer does there is managing a larger area is he has calibrated which land produces food efficiently I mean you know is is he getting more food out than say fertilizer that he's putting in are the shade it does the shade of the trees passing over that or the water in the soil diminish the yield in that particular and I'm talking down to the square meter here that's the degree of detail that he's measuring in that farm so they both apply different techniques to producing food in an optimal way whilst also sharing that space you know with a more natural environment and so I think that what we need to look at here is is a bit of both it's horses for courses there are certainly parts of probably every farm in the UK which are non-profitable and taking them out of use might be a beneficial thing if they can be measured or simply understood by the farmer who's there, who's given the flexibility to make those choices for him or herself.

10:05And that's what we need to do. So I think empowering our farmers to be part of that decision-making process is really important. But I think also we've got to make sure that they're furnished with the abilities to understand that, well, interestingly, I'll go back to that guy that does everything technologically. He calls nature a yield. He calls nature a yield and he wants a high yield of nature. And at the moment, a lot of farmers, you might argue, are preoccupied with yield. And that comes down to cost, input, energy, overheads, you know, literally overdrafts in many cases. But I think we need to we need to offer them the opportunity to develop that similar idea that nature and environment are a yield.

10:46and investing in that is investing in their own future in that space, perhaps for their family going forwards and certainly for our future going forwards. Eva, I hope that was useful. Thank you very much indeed. I'm rattling through these because we've got so much, so many of you got questions and I want as many of you as possible to feel like you've had a chance to connect with Chris directly. A few of you got in touch with questions about hunting. Here's a question from Matthew in Wiltshire. Hi, Amol. Matthew here. My question to Chris would be this. Last month, the government announced its consultation on a ban on trail hunting, something that I have no doubt you are in favour of.

11:24Why are you so against banning something that already removes the element of animal cruelty that you are against and will destroy jobs across the countryside, including farriers and country pubs, many of which are already struggling and need our help? instead why are you not championing hunts that are hunting legally and not using trail hunting as a smoke screen as we hear so often while lobbying the government instead to properly fund rural policing to be able to police hunt effectively thank you matthew just to be clear what's going on here is that trail hunting is supposed to be um fox hunting where there's no fox where there's sometimes a bit of cloth which is drenched in fox urine and the dogs chase after that but lots of people who are opponents of fox hunting say that trail hunting is basically used very often as just a smoke screen or as a cover because actually what's going on is there are foxes and there have been instances of that but just to put Matthew's question to you directly why are you not championing hunts that are hunting legally and not using trail hunting as a smoke screen and also why aren't you therefore lobbying the government instead to properly fund rural policing to be able to police problem hunts effectively okay firstly Matthew the government have announced that they will be putting out a consultation.

12:40They haven't done so yet. We're hoping that it's going to come in the new year, which will give everyone a chance, Matthew included, of course, to put his opinion to the government when they draw up a policy, hopefully to implement their manifesto pledge, which was to stop trail hunting. And the reason that we want to stop trail hunting, you've hit the nail on the head already, is it's not a way of guaranteeing that foxes won't be pursued by the hounds deliberately or accidentally and killed. and when I liaised as I did for many years with the New Forest hounds as a New Forest resident I as a younger man always said to them look if you switch to drag hunting which is where a human lays a scent essentially a runner runs around the countryside in advance of the hunt leaving that morning leaving a scent which the the typically bloodhounds would follow I said I'll come and run for you I would be you know very keen to support drag hunting what we call clean boot hunting you know but what i don't want is to continue to see animals needlessly killed for pleasure tortured in our countryside um by you know a minority of people who see that as a inalienable right but matthew's point is that even if and i said that when we set up these episodes i'll try and pursue answers on our listeners behalf and i think matthew where he here would say that there are instances of trail hunting where there is no fox involved and if people trail hunting possibly does offer the best of both worlds if you do it right and if it's police properly but it isn't police properly okay well then the problem yeah then your problem is with police and the policing of well hold on the law we get into a broader conversation about the the police are extremely under resourced and unfortunately hunting is not a notifiable crime and it's very often seen as a public order problem because you have conflict between those who oppose hunting and those who want to continue it.

14:30So the police find themselves in quite a difficult position when it comes to this. But Matthew, I don't know if Matthew, I don't know you, Matthew, I don't know if you're someone who's been fox hunting or is an advocate or a campaigner for it, but he would, I suppose, say if you could get to a world where trail hunting happened and no fox was killed because the law was being enforced properly, would you, Chris Packham, have a problem with that? It's not going to work. I mean, I have a problem with it simply because it's not practical. you know why not drag hunt why do you have to put a fox scent down and by the way where do you get the fox urine from because I'm not seeing that for sale in Sainsbury's or Tesco's or Aldi where do you get that fox urine from you know there were so many unanswered questions when it comes to this the fact is that you know there are hunters who have changed their practice and their policy and they are doing everything they can to hunt legally but unfortunately there are still plenty of hunts that go out with the intention of illegally hunting foxes.

15:28And that's not Chris's opinion. That's something which is constantly documented. And the courts are still filled with people who are challenged because it is illegal. The pressure is put on an under-resourced police force. And it's not just a question of having officers on the ground. You'd have to especially train those officers. This requires investment again. And our police services is already pushed and they've got a lot of really difficult things to be doing on our behalf to protect our society. so i so i think that you know going forward let's let's try and get the last few fervently determined you know hunts people want to go out and actively hunt foxes to change their policy move to clean boot or drag hunting and then they would have my support lots and lots of questions came in matthew thank you lots of questions came in on um your autism asperger's syndrome and the fact you've spoken about it very openly this one's from louise what support did or would have helped Chris as a child growing up with autism?

16:25I think just a broad societal understanding of that and certainly at school you know there's very simple things like so I'm very task centric so I like a very defined task don't tell me to clean the house you know ask me to clean the kitchen you know I need things broken down the more detail there is in the definition of the task the better it suits me because I feel better able to to meet that in terms of its objective and also to maximise its efficiency. That's another key part of it for me. I don't want to just clean the kitchen. I want to make sure that I clean the kitchen in the most effective way, using the best tools in the best manner to make sure that it is absolutely spotless.

17:03Because if it isn't spotless, the task won't be complete. I'm in a lesson. All of a sudden, I'm writing something. I'm doing geography. The bell rings. Now, that's not my bell ringing. That's someone else's bell ringing. I've been set a task. Do this. The task isn't finished. having to move from one lesson to the next and then start that just didn't compute right just led to loads of trouble so i think that if you have an understanding of neurodivergent young people in a setting which has to be you know there has to be a framework there you've got to have lessons and you've got to be able to move from one they've got to stop and finish and all that sort of thing but having an understanding of what's presenting those challenges to them why they just actually just want to finish this before they move on to mathematics in another classroom why that child may want to sit in the same seat and when you go in and you say and they say to someone else you're sat in my seat and they say and and then and then and then a fight starts so you just stuck two fingers up for those who are listening to this as a podcast so you know that's what would happen and i think if if the staff in those in the in those uh contexts have a broader understanding then then it can make life easier for those young people we're going to end with a couple of questions about you and your career including one from richard hello amol so my question for chris packham as someone who myself was changed by punk in the 70s is to what extent did your enthusiasm for an engagement with punk music stimulate or enhance your capacity to challenge authority throughout your career thank you punk as a way of uh you know i'm probably only here because of punk rock because punk rock was a form of salvation for me in the mid 70s you know i was an undiagnosed autistic kid it was very very angry was an outsider outsider who didn't like authority because authority wasn't serving me in the way that it needed to to make my life in any way fulfilled.

18:53It gave me an opportunity to identify myself physically as being different and that was enormously empowering because obviously I'd figured out there were behavioral differences. I didn't know what they were but I'd figured that out. Punk wasn't all about spitting and anarchy. It was about creativity. It was about do-it-yourself and it was about challenging authority effectively to implement positive change. And of course it was fuelled by a lot of anger. I mean, this was the mid-70s. I mean, there was three-day week, double governments. It was strikes and, you know, and then, you know, your career's advisory talk was if you don't get into sixth form college if you talk about joining one of the services.

19:32So, yes, there was a lot of anger there. I think that punk, I surfed the punk thing, thankfully. I think inherently you know the autism and also the the independence that my parents had encouraged probably because probably because I was displaying it anyway and they were just putting up with it but they certainly encouraged it and I remember my dad saying to me my dad was a great advocate of you know he he was a keen supporter of the police and the judiciary and all of that sort of thing but he would always say to me listen if anyone asks you to do something you must always ask yourself why they've asked you to do it you should always challenge that because people have ulterior motives and you don't want to get drawn into that.

20:15So that was encouraged at home. And certainly, you know, my parents offered me a very broad sweep of politics, art and all of those sorts of things. They laid out the plate for me to pick and choose and ask questions about it. So that, again, was encouraged in my home. So punk wasn't just about tearing things down, but about building things up. It was about building things up. It was about creativity and it was about energy. And yeah, you know, I'm 64, but I've still got enough of that energy to be able to stagger over to the record player and put on the appropriate vinyl when I need it. But the attitude is as alive now as it was in 1976 and 7.

20:52Wonderful. Final question. This comes, we've got an international audience, I'm very, very excited to say. And this one comes from Martin in Amsterdam. Hi, Amol. Hi, Chris. Chris, together with Michaela, you always put a smile on our faces when you welcome us for Spring and Winter Watch. at the same time we always say hello back to you of course you can't hear us so this is my opportunity hello my question for you chris is have you learned over the years how to make a topic like for instance the green butterfly interesting or were you always able to captivate your audience very much enjoying your programs and yours and more greetings from amsterdam martin lovely voice note go on then uh the green bottle fly well i'm not sure i always captivated my audience but I might have captured them because you know the family dinner times were a place where I would info dump on whatever I was interested in at the time and I remember in 1985 walking across a park in Southampton to buy a post-punk record with my sister and I said I went for an audition to make a children's wildlife program called the really wild show and they've offered me the job and she said wow thank goodness for that she said you've been boring us for years now you can go and bore the nation so I think that you know my passion and enthusiasm for wildlife and to tell everyone about that passion and enthusiasm was there but to answer Martin's question of course like any broadcaster I have you know shaped my delivery technique and I've studied that of others I remember when I first got that job for the really wild show.

22:31I went home and I got VHS tapes of David Attenborough and Alan Wicker and Carl Sagan, all the people that I really respected as broadcasters as a kid. And I watched them talking to the camera because I never thought about doing that before. And I sort of critically analysed it and murdered them all to dissect them and understand their technique. And that's something that I would continue to do. And I think that when it comes to telling stories, we want to entrance and enthrall our audience. And so, yes, of course, we take on board those sorts of things and try and sculpt our ability to do it. I've still got plenty to learn.

23:06I'm not saying I'm an expert at it, but obviously, yes, yes. It's something that I consider because I want people to love blue bottles or green bottles as much as they love cuddly koala bears because they're just as interesting. I bet you, I bet you that right now and in the future, they're going to be young putative broadcasters or creators who study Chris Packham videos to work out how to excite people about the world. Chris, I've absolutely loved our time together. Thank you so much. It's very, very moving listening to you. And I tell you what, anyone who goes back to listen to the main episode will be in no doubt the urgency of those issues which you seek to address.

23:45Thank you so much for all your questions. I will be back on Thursday. But for now, from me and from Chris Packham, goodbye. Goodbye.

23:58Hello, I'm Emma Barnett. For most of my career, I've been on live radio and I love it. But I've always wondered, what if we'd had more time? How much deeper does the story go? I remember having this very sharp thought that what you do right now, this is it. This defines your life. I'm ready to talk and ready to listen. I'm insulted by how little the medical community has ever bothered with this. Ready to talk with me, Emma Barnard, is my new podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed.

24:42But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.