Will There Be A Revolt Against AI Music? (Your Radical Questions with Panos A. Panay)

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Your Radical Questions. This is where I put your questions to one of our magnificent radical guests.

0:48It's basically a chance for you to really, really connect with them, engage very directly through the wonders of technology with the super smart, super interesting and very influential people that we have on this podcast. and really ask them about their ideas for the future, ideas that are radical and otherwise. By the way, coming up in the next few weeks, I'm going to be exploring the issue of fast fashion with a woman who set up a business designed to combat it. And I'm also going to be looking at how geography, where you grew up, influences your life chances with a man who connects talented young people from deprived areas with mentors, universities and employers.

1:22Sort of thing I feel I could have some interesting questions about. So if you have a question about either of those subjects, fast fashion or social mobility, the influence of geography on life chances, please send us a voice note on WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. 0330 123 9480. Or you can always email us on radical at bbc.co.uk, which is what you did in very large numbers when I asked you for questions. I mean, I'm not going to say I was surprised by the number of questions, but my goodness, Panos et Panay is a remarkable recipient, if I may say, of radical questions because, bluntly, a lot of people love music and a lot of people love the Grammys.

2:00And you are the man who runs the Grammys as the president of the Recording Academy. We've just had a long chat, Panos, about the future of music, some of the trends, good and bad, that are going to reshape it. And those trends are a concern to some of our listeners. Are you feeling ready for some questions? I am. Okay, here we go. This is the first question, and it comes from Mike. Hi, Amol. It's Mike here from London. I've been working in the music industry for 10 years or so. In that time, the industry has become ever more fragmented with the gatekeeper era being completely over. So meaning no magazine cover, radio playlist, TV show appearance or even Spotify playlist can make or break an artist anymore.

2:46And artists have to build their own audience on socials instead. But they've got to contest with AI slop, which is indistinguishable from reality, and AI music from places like Suno is flooding the charts and taking away money from the real artists. So my question for Panos is, will there be a revolt against this? Will there be a successful AI-free music platform or AI-free socials platform in the future? Mike, thank you so much for that question. I should say, obviously, to anyone listening to this episode, which you're doing in very large numbers, I'm thrilled to say, Go back and listen to the main episode that we did with Panos because we addressed this whole issue of AI in tremendous detail.

3:29But I'm now going to pursue answers to your specific questions in detail. Panos, the first thing is, will there be a revolt against this? I think there will be. there's something about us as humans that my view is that we

3:48inherently resonate with a piece of human creation in a very different way than we do with artificially created music and I had described and drew an analog between you know mass food production and junk food and nutritious food. And I think it's the same with music. It's about, you know, do I have a choice? I do believe that we will get to a point where either voluntary or mandatory labeling will happen. And I also believe that if there's any revolt that will primarily come from consumers rather than any other entity. And you're already experiencing this in the duality that we talked about during the episode of us craving this connection from a live setting.

4:53And I should say that as president of the Recording Academy, you're not leading a revolt, but you are, if I may say, eloquently championing creators and trying to argue for a better system. So part of what you're doing at the Recording Academy is exactly that. And I should also say you've also been open, as you were in our main episode, about the potential upsides of AI. You know, these technologies are dual use. Yeah, look, every piece of technology has ever been created. and the person that found a piece of bone fragment and drilled a couple of holes and created a flute, that was technology.

5:30And that piece of technology enabled us to express ourselves in a different way and create melodies. And then throughout the history of music, whether it was with the creation of instruments, as we have come to understand what instruments are, even though that concept is changing, to the creation of recorded music and the player piano and eventually what we call multi-track recording and then to the creation of digital audio workstations, on and on and on. Technology has enabled the amplification of human creativity. If it wasn't for multi-track recording, there would be no Sgt. Pepper. There would arguably be less impactful Beatles if it wasn't for their ability to create or paint with sound.

6:31And then there would likely not be almost every new contemporary genre of music that we know, whether it's called EDM, whether it's called hip hop or rap. So with every subsequent piece of technology that comes about, there is not only the increased ability for people to create something, but there's also the rise of new genres in music. So I do believe that AI is both a threat, as we talked about during the episode, but it can also enable all kinds of new ways for humans to create. Mike, being an opportunistic guy, actually asked three questions. He asked about the revolt. He also said, will there be successful AI-free music platforms or AI-free social platforms in the future?

7:23I cannot predict that. And I don't even know if that would necessarily be desirable. But I do believe that voluntary or mandatory labeling will likely come to be. But this is just my personal prediction. Okay. Good to be humble about the future. Mike, thank you so much for that question. Brilliant stuff. Hope you feel we gave you an answer there. This is another question that came in for you, Panos, from Jamie. Thank you, Jamie. me. Hi, I'm Marlon Panos. Jamie from Falmouth and Cornwall here. Given that if we want a future of good, meaningful, powerful, emotional music, not music created by machines, it seems to me that we need musicians.

8:10When I think about all the music that's enriched my life, a lot of it has come from a place of hardship. The people who made that music were dirt poor, lived in squats, had hard lives, toured the country in the back of transit vans and ate basically crisps from motorway service stations. Is it possible to have musicians in a country like the UK without a functioning welfare state? I think that without the support from government in some means, in some way, how can anyone even afford to work on their craft and create those amazing songs that we all love and have enriched our lives? Jamie, thank you so much for that question.

8:49I didn't see the second bit of it coming. The idea of music coming from a place of struggle and hardship, I was with you all the way. Then we moved on to the welfare state. I guess what Jamie's getting at there is that a lot of musicians are skint and they need support in order to feed themselves while they're doing their business. And that means in practice that support is a welfare state. So the question is, is it possible for musicians in a country like the UK to operate really if you don't have a functioning welfare state? That's an interesting question, and it comes from a very different maybe framework than the one that I live in every day in America.

9:24Look, I'd love to see government support more artists through all kinds of schemes and ways. But I also think that government can support artists through good legislation around protection of intellectual property, good tax policies, and ways to create incentives for the support of music creation or music performance to happen. So in America, for example, there is tax legislation that enables you to donate or give money to not-for-profit organizations and get a tax deduction. Or even the very creation of a not-for-profit organization that does not have to pay taxes, well, that is dependent on a properly functioning state.

10:26Well, the Recording Academy is a not-for-profit organization, and our very status enables us to have the advocacy position that we have for our 30-odd thousand members. So government support can come in multiple ways. It doesn't just need to be a handout through a quote-unquote welfare state. I mean, if there's countries that do that, that is fantastic. But I also believe that government can and should and must and has to play a role in order for an environment that enables creators to thrive, but it can do so with both direct and indirect means. Yeah, including incentivization for particular behaviors rather than, as you say, direct money.

11:13It's always interesting to talk to someone based in America about what they make of the European social model, because I guess there's an element to Jamie. I don't want to presume unfairly about you, Jamie, but maybe there's one of the implications of what you're saying is maybe some people deserve more support than they're getting. And I guess an American might look at what's going on in Europe and say, Actually, you guys, some of you guys are getting quite a lot of support because in America, if you want, you know, health care or job support, if you're unemployed or unemployment support, I should say, if you don't have a job, it's not necessarily as forthcoming as we have in Europe.

11:45It's a very particular experience here. Jamie, thank you so much. Here's another question. And this is from Chris. Hi Amal, my name's Chris. So I have never understood why musicians and the estates of musicians long gone, e.g. Elvis Presley, keep being paid royalties when their music is played. This must mean that there's lots of money sloshing around. so why not adopt the rules that apply to drug companies who receive royalties for 10 years only then no more royalties when their patents expires so diverting resources in this way would surely free up money that could be used to support tomorrow's musicians just a thought what a fantastic question chris that's the kind of radical idea when they said you want to do a podcast i said i want to do one with radical ideas practical radical ideas to fix things what's the answer to that question i had no idea i'd never thought about that that is a radical question uh well maybe i'll take one second to explain it yes please about copyrights yeah love to learn um first of all what your listener is talking about is also money that's derived from the licensing of image and likeness, which is very different.

13:09Then copyright, and there's different legislations or copyright legislations and frameworks in different countries, but by and large, it works as follows. For a copyright related to a song that I write or composition, then that is for the lifetime time of the author plus 70 years. So actually they do expire. Hence, we have a lot of stuff in the public domain. You can freely take Mozart's music or Beethoven's music and do whatever the heck you want with it and you don't have to pay anybody anything. That's in the public domain. On the recording side, then there's different countries have different legislations, but it's roughly 70 to 95 years from original date of publication or commercial use, I should say.

14:11So in both of these situations, you actually do have the expiry of the copyright. It's not like the drug industry that's 10 years after you're awarded a patent, but there's a difference between a patent and a copyright, which again, I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to go into all that. Maybe that's another guest for another radical episode. Now, the concept that he's articulating, I think it's quite interesting. Could there be a situation where, okay, all these millions or billions of dollars that are generated for Elvis or anybody else, could they be given to a fund that is then shared or supports emerging music?

14:57You know, again, maybe because I was, um, uh, my, uh, professional, I came of age professional in America, I have a different framework and I'll say, well, that is in some ways what record labels used to do. And to some degree still do meaning, uh, usually the adage has been that only one out of 20 or so artists actually make a profit. So yes, the Bruce Springsteens and the Bob Dillons and the Elton Johns and the Depeche Moshe of the world have probably indirectly financed hundreds of other emerging artists that never managed to go anywhere because traditionally the role of a label has been to actually fund emerging talent.

15:50Now, that's changing. But I'm kind of going back even to the way that I answered the second question. There's direct ways and then sometimes there's indirect ways by which these funding mechanisms happen. But I'm all for radical ideas. All for radical ideas. That's why you're so welcome on this podcast. Chris, I hope, thank you for the question. I hope that's a persuasive answer. Panos, I've, you know, one of the glories of human conversation, and by which I mean human to human as opposed to human to machine, is you learn so much. I feel like I've, I feel like I've learned so much from you in the past hour and a half that we've had together.

16:26I'm so grateful. And it's funny, you've got this book, which you co-authored with R. Michael Hendricks, called Two Beats Ahead. and the sub headline of it is what great musical minds teach us about creativity and innovation. And I genuinely feel I've learned a huge amount about creativity and innovation and their future from you. So thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I know you've got to dash because you're about to get on a plane back to America, not least because the Grammys are imminent. Are you looking forward to them? I am. You've got to say that because you're in charge.

16:59Totally. It would be a hell of a story if the president of the Recording Academy and we said, I'm not looking forward to the Grammy. That would be scary. It would be a great show. We already announced a bunch of great performances, and we have Trevor and Noah returning as a host. But, you know, and I mean, obviously I'm biased, but the Grammys is the coolest award show on television because it is three-plus hours of fun music. it's just as much about the awards as it is about the performances and that's what makes it so special. Panos, it's a joy and a privilege. Thank you so much for coming on Radical.

17:39We really appreciate your time. Thank you, Amol.

17:49How does someone invent a political theory that reshapes the map of the world? How do you get to a scientific breakthrough that saves thousands of lives or create works of art that stand the test of time. How have brilliant thinkers through history done their best thinking and what can we learn from them? From BBC Radio 4, it's the second series of Human Intelligence with me, Naomi Alderman. From Karl Marx to Marie Curie, from Emily Bronte to Leonardo da Vinci. How did those exceptional minds do their work and are there ways of thinking we can emulate today? To find out, listen to Human Intelligence, on BBC Sounds.

18:32If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.