A Flock of Two

0:00Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. So recently, you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health. There are all these therapist bots and just even people using regular chat bots to help them find solutions to the problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody to even just to listen. And I don't know. I'm not sure what to think of any of it for a lot of different reasons, but partially because the AI doesn't know anything. It's just taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming.

0:46But it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean. Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language back at us. And yet I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to. All of that got me to thinking about a very different story that we made here at the show years ago. A story where similarly a person who needs help is helped by something. And it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping. We originally heard this back in 2011. So that was years before ChatGPT. But it's sort of a low tech way of doing the same thing. Of parroting your language back to you to help you.

1:34So today I want to play that story for you. Here it is, A Flock of Two. Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab. Radiolab. From WNYC.

1:55Rewind. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Trilwish. This is Radiolab, the podcast. And we're going to St. Louis. Yeah. Nice. Nice and direct. This comes from our producer, Pat Balters. It's the story of a rescue. A double rescue, really. It's one we've been wanting to tell for a while. Pat Balters. So a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet

2:30is a bird. It's about this guy named Jim Eggers. Oh, you're recording? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to record. I wasn't including him in this. And in 2005, Jim was living by himself in a little apartment in St. Louis. Working in a Halloween industry. It was the winter, so Jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house. I've done Halloween stuff for 19 years. What do you do? Most of the time, I've been in costumes and so forth or wear masks. You know, like jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people. I can scream and, you know, go nuts. Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper.

3:10What's technically your diagnosis? I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. And what that pretty much is is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot, I can become extremely dangerous and violent. While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing start coming on, It feels like real strange and tingly. Might just be a few seconds before all of a sudden, boom. Here you are like the Incredible Hulk. Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them? Yeah. Jim's known around his neighborhood for just losing it from time to time. He shouts at people on the street, punches dents in people's cars.

3:57One time he even poured hot coffee from a second-story window onto his neighbor's head. I go off on people, and it's horrible. And if you ask Jim, he'll tell you this all goes back to when he was seven. At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown, and... You saw him drown? Yeah, I witnessed him drowning. We wandered away from home. We were not properly supervised by my parents. and I told my brother not to go over into the river because it was deep. He didn't listen to me and then the currents dragged him down. I saw him bob up and down three times and the third time he didn't come back up.

4:40And I was pleading with God, you know, crying, please bring him back. I'm going to be in trouble. And when Jim's parents found out, they blamed him. You know, it was my fault my brother drowned. I should have been, you know, I should have saved him. and then other times they told me that, you know, they wish it was me that died instead of my brother. And then when he was 16, Jim's mom threw him out of the house. She just said one day, get out, Jim? Yeah, and she said she didn't want me over there anymore. Get out. After that, Jim's life kind of spiraled out of control. He ended up living on the streets for years and just getting angrier and angrier at everyone around him.

5:18And then in 2005, which is where our part of the story begins, Jim did something that got him in very serious trouble. Tell me about the archbishop situation. He'd been reading news reports about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, and for reasons that aren't entirely clear, Jim had become convinced that the local archbishop was involved in covering this stuff up. He was watching the news, and he saw Burke on there. Talking about something. Can't remember what. And at that point, I snapped and picked up a phone, dialed the archdiocese, asked them to connect me to his office. Which, like idiots, they did.

6:07And when they did, I told them, you know, I ought to come down and kill you. I said, I may even do that Sunday. A couple hours later, Jim went out to run some errands. And when I head out the door, here were the police.

6:26Jim ended up getting sentenced to a year of probation. Just a few weeks into his probation, something happened that would basically set the story that we're telling about Jim in motion. It's a typical Sunday morning, and Jim's at church, and he runs into this couple. These people that own Variety Bird Shop in Valley Park. The husband stopped me and said, well, we know where you can get an African gray parrot, and they told me that she came with a cage. I see. Why would they approach you? Well, I was putting$100 aside every month to pay for a baby African gray parrot. And you have to understand that Jim is kind of an animal, man.

7:04He's had dogs. And cats. Guinea pigs and stuff like that. His whole life. Never a bird. But when Jim read about these African gray parrots, he became kind of obsessed with getting one. Because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun. So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said, we can get you an African gray parrot. And she comes with the cage for$550. Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what I was going to pay. So he says, you know, I'll go ahead and take it. Because that was too good of a deal to pass up. There was a catch though. The bird wasn't at the shop.

7:35It was being sold by this local kid who was just trying to get rid of her. I went over there and she looked absolutely horrible because this kid didn't take care of her. She was about a foot tall You want some peanut butter? She had a black beak Pretty yellow eyes too Piercing yellow eyes Bright red And tail feathers But when Jim first saw her She didn't have any flight feathers in her left wing Because she torn all of them out Yeah, she was plucking her feathers Which is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed And I mean, she looked horrible I almost wanted to say no after I saw her.

8:18But he knew he couldn't just leave her there. So he paid the kid, took her home, gave her lots of loving and care, and within like three days she bowed her head. That means she pretty much bonded with me.

8:39About like the third week I owned her, I was in another room on the telephone and she said, hey Jim, do you want a beer? And it's like, I don't drink beer. She would say that to you? Yeah, she asked me if I wanted a beer and then she'd ask, tell me stuff like, will you get me a beer? You know, made me choke on my coffee. But a few weeks later, Sadie started imitating Jim. Yeah. She'll impersonate a little chuckle that I do. It's like... It's even better than Elmo could laugh. And as Sadie spent more time with Jim, she learned to say words and phrases. And then one day... Several weeks after I had her, something kind of wonderful happened.

9:34I came home and I was like in a really bad mood and I knew I had to do something. One of those moments when Jim could just feel he was about to lose control. I was trying to talk myself into calming down. What would that sound like? I was talking to myself and telling myself, calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine, you know, it's not so bad. And then she started repeating it. Saying, calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine. Exactly. Just like Jim was saying. Word for word. And I was like, wow, and it's like, that gives me an ideal. Jim started rewarding Sadie every time she said something that might help calm him down.

10:15Like, you know. You'll be okay. Treat. Everything's fine. It's not as bad as you think. Treat. Shut up. Treat. I don't want to hear it. Treat. I love you, Jim, and she'll make a kissing sound. Treat, treat. It just goes on and on and on. So Jim went online and actually found this special kind of cage that you can carry around on your back. Then I took her with me just everywhere. He even got her registered as a service animal. Kind of like a seeing eye dog. I mean, everywhere. Where would you go with her? I've taken her into churches. I've taken her aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym, yes.

10:51I've even taken her into like a couple of casinos through here. And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation. When Jim started feeling himself get mad, he'd tell himself, calm down. Sadie would repeat him. But then, one day, a few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. That's right after this break.

11:15Just before the break, Jim and his parent Sadie were developing this relationship where she would help him calm down when he was about to lose control. A few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. Jim says he doesn't exactly remember the first time it happened. I can't think of anything right now because I'm like blanking out. But it probably went something like this. Jim's just out in the neighborhood one day. He's got Sadie in her little backpack cage. And something happens that sets Jim off. I don't know, a car cuts him off at the crosswalk. And immediately, Jim starts getting that tingly feeling.

11:53Yeah. And then, in this split second, fraction of a moment, before Jim starts to talk himself down like he does... Calm down, Jim. Calm down. He hears, calm down, Jim, from Sadie. Exactly. She says it first? Yeah. Wow. Like she knew what was in his mind or inside him, like before he even did anything. Oh, yeah, she knows. She can sense that. How do you suppose that was happening? I mean, maybe she... I don't know. I mean, Jim thinks maybe she can, like, feel a change in the way he's moving. You know, I have like body tremors when I'm starting to really get furious. Maybe Sadie can pick up on those tremors.

12:34And Jim says this just kept happening. She does it all the time. And, you know, it makes you stop to think. If I would go off on a person or something like that, you know, I wouldn't have any remorse or anything. But, I mean, it's just a little innocent animal. but seemed to know him in this really intimate way.

13:02Which kind of blew my mind. Yeah. But Sadie didn't do it while I was there. So I left Jim this tape recorder and I asked him to try to get something like this on tape just so I could prove it to people. Hello, my name is James Eggers and I'm standing here with my parrot, Sadie. She's standing here right next to me on her little perch. Say something. You gonna say something to the microphone, huh? A week or so later, I got the tape back. What do you have to say? It said he was on there saying all kinds of things, like, hello. Hello. Hello. She said her name. She said, good girl. Good girl. Things that I could imagine Jim saying to her.

13:44Good girl. But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of weird, intuitive exchange happening or something? Not really. But I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it. Yeah. So I called this woman who runs a coffee shop around the corner from his house, asked her if she'd seen it. She hadn't. Oh. Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something. And? Nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend, Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this, it would be Larry, because he's around them, like, all the time.

14:21He hadn't either. So I called Jim to ask if I was, like, missing anybody. He didn't answer, so I left a message. Left another message. Then finally... Hello? Hi, Jim. I got him on the phone. It's Pat again. Yeah, go ahead. It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you. Well, she definitely has said those But, I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me Right, but has anyone ever seen her talk you down from being mad? No, because most of the time people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing I started to wonder, like, is this the kind of thing a parrot is even capable of?

15:16So I decided to check Hello. I called a scientist. I'm Dr. Irene Pepperberg, adjunct associate professor at Brandeis University. She's basically the world's expert on African gray parrots. So I asked her, have you ever heard of anything like this before? Not exactly, but it doesn't surprise me. In fact, Irene told me that something kind of similar had happened to her once. Yes. With this parrot named Alex that she worked with for like decades. It's basically when... Irene told me that whenever Alex would get out of line... ...prening instead of working or butting in with the other birds when he should be quiet so we could train them, we'd say to him, calm down, just calm down.

15:58And one time I come storming into the laboratory, because I've just come from a horrible faculty meeting when I was in Tucson, and Alex takes one look at me and he says, calm down. Really? Yeah. And I actually stormed off and I said something to the effect of, don't you tell me to calm down. And I went into my office and slammed the door. And Irene says that a parrot, like Alex or Sadie, probably doesn't know what calm down means or you'll be okay, Jim. She may not know what each of those little phrases mean. But she knows that when she says calm down, Jim calms down. So she has learned from association that that will bring her flock mate back to normal.

16:37Which is a big deal for parrots, Irene says, because they're prey. So they're constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten. And in Sadie's case... She's in a flock of two at this point. So if she wants to feel comfortable while preening or eating, she needs to know that he's going to be watching out for her. Remember, she doesn't have a big flock. She just has him.

17:04Wow. So in the end, what do you make of all this? Well, I mean, I can't prove that she does the things Jim says she does. But on the other hand, everyone I talk to around Jim says that whatever is happening between them is keeping him from threatening people on the street, from punching dents in people's cars. It's just keeping him a better guy. Yeah. So maybe it doesn't matter. I don't care if anybody believes me or not. You know, it's not, I'm not here to prove anything to anybody. That's not the point. The point is I know what she does and that is that.

17:46No, come on girl.

17:53See hello. Not burp. No, don't eat. No eat.

18:09Thanks to Pat Walters. Come on, fly home. Into Sadie. Hello. Good girl. Into Jim. Sadie, what are you looking at, huh? She's got her eyes focused on me and trying to figure out what you're doing with the mic. Yes, yeah. Can I get you some coffee? Thanks. Hi, I'm Jonathan, and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design Our staff includes Simon Adler Jeremy Bloom Becca Bressler W. Harry Fortuna David Gable Rebecca Lacks Maria Paz Gutierrez Sindhu Nanyu Sambadam Matt Kielty Annie McEwan Alex Niesen Sarah Kari Sarah Sandback Anissa Vitsa Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young, with help from Rebecca Rand.

19:13Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol-Matsini, and Natalie Middleton.

19:25Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radiolab Science Programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Delberto Foundation. Fundational support from RadioLive was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.