The Gondolier

9:08Alex Hai:Up close, Alex looked taller than I expected. Strong build. Kind of a face that was a little weathered, like someone who works outside all day on the water.

9:17David Conrad:I was finishing quite late, so when you called, I just finished. Oh, perfect. How was your flight?

9:24Kristen Clark:It was good. It was long.

9:27Alex Hai:And since it was late, we made a plan with Alex to meet up at 5.45 p.m. the next day on the steps of La Fenice Opera House.

9:37Kristen Clark:Okay, beautiful little opera house.

9:38Alex Hai:Yeah.

9:39David Conrad:I was rushing out to find you, so I left all the mess in the gondola.

9:46Alex Hai:So anyway, the plan was to go out on a gondola ride.

9:49Kristen Clark:Which was one of Alex's demands in that first email.

9:56Kristen Clark:So we walk around the corner to where the gondolas park. And... Oh my God. The boat was just like shining.

10:06David Conrad:So the gondola was made for three people.

10:09Kristen Clark:Long, narrow, jet black.

10:11David Conrad:This was where the noble couple was sitting.

10:14Alex Hai:Antique cushions, golden trim.

10:16David Conrad:And over there there was a servant sitting.

10:18Alex Hai:Alex had had it about 12 years.

10:20David Conrad:It was already quite an old boat when I got it.

10:22Alex Hai:And it had a name.

10:23David Conrad:This is called Pegasus.

10:25Alex Hai:Pegasus.

10:26Kristen Clark:And you choose it? Yes. Yes, of course. All right. So, if you want to come in.

10:33David Conrad:One step.

10:34Alex Hai:So, we climb into the boat.

10:35David Conrad:Perfect. Sit a little over there.

10:39Alex Hai:And Alex stands at the back, holding the oar, and we're down sitting in the lower seats, kind of just like pointing the microphone up. Alex, I know you were just telling us how annoying it is when people snap pictures. It's okay if I take photographs every once in a while. No.

10:59Alex Hai:You came here to study at first?

11:02David Conrad:No, that's not what I said.

11:04Alex Hai:And it was pretty much immediately clear You came here, I mean... that it was not going to be an easy interview.

11:16David Conrad:You came here when you studied. I know, I know, but I was wondering... The ballroom and the rowing. Right, right. You need to do a lot of practice.

11:23Kristen Clark:Yeah, we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had pulled from all these articles we'd read. And that pretty quickly became useless.

11:32Alex Hai:And whenever I asked about being the first female gondolier, the first woman in 900 years to do this...

11:38David Conrad:Oh, it's an old story. What's that? You can read that everywhere on the net. I mean, so, you know, such an over and over and over and over. It's all set already. Why do we need to repeat things which are already done?

11:53Kristen Clark:This is a very frequent journalism problem. Like, you become boring to the person you're interviewing, and you start flailing.

11:59David Conrad:Exactly, and we were. We were like, uh... You don't have anything... What? No.

12:05Kristen Clark:Why are we here? What do you do? You know, we just thought maybe we should just be... quiet, probably.

12:18We are about to make the tightest turn I have ever seen in a 30-foot boat.

12:30Alex Hai:We moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals.

12:40David Conrad:And as we'd go around these tight turns, Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were coming. So here we have a crossway. This is why I shout out my direction in order to avoid accidents because you cannot hear the gondola arriving.

12:59Alex Hai:You know, we go under these beautiful archways. Past hidden gardens.

13:06David Conrad:You don't necessarily need eyes in order to appreciate a gondola tour. Every channel has a different sound. There are some gems here of a lot of birds singing.

13:23David Conrad:Sometimes they fly in your face. So this is a beautiful entrance here I wanted to show you.

13:31Alex Hai:At one point, our gondola cut through this rectangle of light.

13:38Alex Hai:Shining from an open kitchen door.

13:44Kristen Clark:It was nice. I mean, this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful, but the whole time we were sitting on our notepads, and we were definitely quietly panicking.

13:56Well, you know, I didn't know this at the time, but...

14:01David Conrad:I thought there was some, you know, I was like, hmm, they're maybe a little too young. I think Alex was testing us. Maybe a little bit too, you don't have enough experience maybe. That was my concern. But I liked the enthusiasm and I liked the, there was an honesty which I liked.

14:31Kristen Clark:Did you ever figure out what you were being sussed out for or what was going on there?

14:38Alex Hai:For sure not on the boat, but we actually made plans to go out to dinner that night.

14:43Kristen Clark:And considering how the boat ride went, we thought at this point we should return to square one and leave the recorder at home. Right. And just try and have a conversation.

14:51Alex Hai:Anyway, we sit down outside, and very few people are in the restaurant. We're the only table outside. They had to open.

14:57Kristen Clark:And when we got there, too, we should say we met Alex's girlfriend, right?

15:00Alex Hai:Yeah, and we're making, I think we're just kind of making small talk. And yeah, it turns out, turns out Alex's girlfriend is a photographer. And she'd done this photo essay of Alex. And the photos are really striking. Like one of them, Alex is just like drowning under the water. There's one that's just like Alex's back is to the camera.

15:22Kristen Clark:This ripped muscular back.

15:24Alex Hai:Yeah, like arms splayed, like looking out the window over the city of Venice.

15:28Kristen Clark:Venice's lone defender.

15:29Alex Hai:Just like so badass and like kind of like superhero style.

15:35Alex Hai:So we were just chatting about the photos and asking Alex's girlfriend, like, you know, tell me a little bit more about what inspired you to take these photos and, you know, like small talk friendly stuff. And she kind of was like, you know, it was just it's so strange. You know, we thought we thought it was so clear. We like the photos were so like they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body. we you know in our artist statement you know we used all of the male forms in italian you know like louis which means he instead of le which means she but everybody at the photo exhibit was like oh must have been a typo or you made a mistake and she was like which is funny because i'm italian so i should know and i was like oh pronoun pronouns louis he alex she used he he Alex is a he?

16:29Alex Hai:Is Alex trans? Like, oh my gosh, Alex is a transgender man.

16:36Kristen Clark:Whoa. What did you, what did that mean to you in that moment? What I thought that meant was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with. Yeah, I mean, mine was, I didn't think transgender. I didn't think, I thought, Alex is a guy. Of course, Alex is a guy. Really? Yeah, I wasn't surprised. Were you surprised? No. I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I'm not saying that the pronoun thing isn't accurate.

17:06Alex Hai:I would say that, like, flipping into he, not a thing. Like, it was like, Alex is a he. Alex is he. He is sitting at the table with us. Alex and his girlfriend. Very quickly, it was like him. I'm looking at him. And then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell. that was about all of the women things that she had done. Her, her, her, her. Woman, hero, heroine. First female in 900 years. International symbol of female power. You start thinking about that and it's like... Those things are really hard to square in your head. This real person is also these stories and how did that happen?

17:51Alex Hai:What has it been like for 20 years to be inside of that story when you're actually a man?

18:05Kristen Clark:Coming up, Alex tells his side of the story, which is not what you would expect at all.

18:16Kristen Clark:Radiolab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder that Capital One Bank Guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash Bank Guy. Capital One and a member FDIC. WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.

18:52Kristen Clark:Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O-D-O-O dot com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening with Here's the Scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with me, your host, Yasmin Vasugian. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News' trusted journalists. It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative, bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world.

19:35Kristen Clark:From the front page to the zeitgeist, Here's the Scoop from NBC News. Listen daily wherever you get your podcasts.

19:45Kristen Clark:Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krolwich. This is Radiolab. And today we're telling the story of Alex Hay, the first ever female gondolier. Someone who seemingly broke through this 900-year-old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way, except, turns out, Alex isn't a woman. And after who knows how many articles about Alex, this is the first time that he's telling his story to the public. And so we should probably stop for a second and talk about pronouns, because this is really important for many transgender people. In moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it, we've decided, with Alex's permission, to only use his name or his title of first female gondolier.

20:31Kristen Clark:While some of the people interviewed for this story were unaware that Alex is transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman, we, when we're talking about him, we will only use male pronouns.

20:49Kristen Clark:So after that dinner, we made plans for the next day. On his motorboat, he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would talk. What's the agreement? On the water. On the water.

21:02David Conrad:Shut up! Stop it. Basta. Hey, Lala. Okay.

21:10Kristen Clark:And how does that begin? A lot of false starts.

21:17Kristen Clark:Well, I don't know. Maybe I can ask. Has anyone ever asked you what gender pronoun you prefer? No, never. Never happened. Ever. So after getting some of the basics out of the way, Alex kind of started at the beginning.

21:35David Conrad:Well, you know, it's a long story. I was born transgender.

21:41Alex Hai:This is in Germany. Alex tells us he was born with a female body, but at a pretty early age knew himself to be a little boy.

21:50David Conrad:I knew already before I went to school. With three years, I was standing on the toilet to pee inside.

21:57Alex Hai:Alex says that, you know, for him, you know, he had the sense even when he was three that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there.

22:04David Conrad:Yeah, yeah. No, I was praying for a penis every night. My parents knew about it. His parents were actually both doctors. They knew, but they were not supportive. You know, I heard them, you know, they were talking about all the weird stuff I did.

22:24Kristen Clark:How he would rip the arms off of his Barbies.

22:26David Conrad:coloring them like, you know, with a black pencil and like destroying them.

22:30Kristen Clark:Or the way Alex dressed himself.

22:33David Conrad:When there was a swimming lesson in the school, I was there only with little pants, so you call them a base suit for boys. And, you know, I was, of course, very aggressive as a child.

22:45Kristen Clark:A lot of fights.

22:46David Conrad:You know, I got quite, I was quite violent as a kid. So now I can laugh about this, but, you know, it was a drama. It was a drama. The constant try of my mother to get this behavior out of me.

23:07Alex Hai:Alex says pretty early on, his parents basically gave up on him.

23:12David Conrad:They ignored me as much as they could, which was, you know, in a way it was saving me because I could wear whatever I wanted. I could do whatever I wanted. And then when Alex was 10, a little brother was born. And that was a shock. That was a terrible shock because basically it confirmed that my mother wanted desperately a boy, but she didn't accept me as her son. That's what it was.

23:49Alex Hai:Alex said basically, you know, that was the first time he saw what, like, it should look like, basically, when a parent loves their kid.

24:04So when he was 15, he ran away from home.

24:09David Conrad:I escaped to Hamburg, and in Hamburg you have a huge district called Sao Paulo, where they have all the prostitutes and, you know, all the bad things. And that's exactly where I went.

24:23Alex Hai:Some people kind of took him under their wing, got a job, kind of figured out how to take care of himself.

24:29David Conrad:I got lucky. But I know also very unlucky stories. But I got lucky.

24:34Kristen Clark:Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body?

24:40David Conrad:He says he thought about it at one point. But in the 80s, when I was 15, the opportunities you have had to become a man were very, very poor.

24:51Alex Hai:In particular, if you wanted to go down the road of surgery.

24:53David Conrad:What I can remember from my family was constant talks about how operations went wrong, how they went wrong and what went wrong. And so for me to go in a hospital to do an operation, this is not going to happen.

25:08Alex Hai:And of course, many transgender people don't end up having surgery. But anyway, after Hamburg, at some point Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up in San Francisco working in the film industry. And so 1996, he got involved in a production that sent him abroad to go scope out locations for a film that was going to be shot in Venice.

25:32Kristen Clark:so shows up in Venice in 1886 how old is he around at this point 29 I think oh so he's older

25:39Alex Hai:he's not a kid at this point originally he's just supposed to stay a few days kind of just enough time to do some research and scope things out but somewhere along the way he sees these guys rowing their boats down the canal and for reasons he can't entirely explain who's just transfixed.

26:00David Conrad:I was fascinated by this kind of board, and I was fascinated by the rowing style, that you row forward so you actually see where you're going. So I was just fascinated, and I just wanted to try it out myself.

26:19Alex Hai:Eventually, Alex ends up actually meeting a gondolier and asks, like, do you think I could do this? and he actually ended up down at the gondola station as an apprentice. Did they ask you why you wanted to study?

26:32David Conrad:I remember the first day. I was introduced by the head boss of the group. Okay, so this is Alex. She's going to be our mascot.

26:43Kristen Clark:Because they saw Alex as a woman, and there had never been a woman gondolier.

26:46David Conrad:Most of them thought for sure this was kind of a joke. There was a very old one who later said, now we have a gondolier with tits. For the first several months, Alex says he basically just picked up after the guys. You were the busboy for everybody, so you needed to clean their boats and to ship out the water like 10, 20 times a day.

27:13Alex Hai:He says it's really back-breaking, grueling work. For somebody that everybody sees as a woman, you'd think this would be like the worst place on earth. But, you know, actually...

27:22Kristen Clark:Those first months in the city, just kind of with the boys, dirty jokes.

27:27David Conrad:I thought, this is great.

27:32Alex Hai:Alex knew all the gondoliers' nicknames, walked and talked and acted like them, and cursed in the same way. And he says he felt like he was part of this tradition of learning from these old guys who were mentors to him.

27:44David Conrad:It was really, like, maybe the best time of my life.

27:54David Conrad:It was like he was home. And then the trouble began.

28:02Kristen Clark:It started with a journalist.

28:08Kristen Clark:This is reporter Consuelo Turin.

28:10David Conrad:We met in a noisy cafe with a translator.

28:15Kristen Clark:When Consuelo was a collaborator of Nuova Venezia. She was a cub reporter in Venice, working for a very politically progressive newspaper. And she was out looking for her big story. And she runs into our, how do they encounter each other?

28:30Alex Hai:Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gondolier stations, and she was like,

28:37Whoa.

28:38David Conrad:It's obviously that this struck her attention.

28:42Alex Hai:It looked to her like there was this woman rowing among men and seeming to kind of blend right in.

28:51David Conrad:Consula was attracted by this vision, unusual vision for Venice.

28:55Alex Hai:So she observed her. She said, I camped out for like a whole morning and basically just watched Alex's behavior. But.

29:07Kristen Clark:Alex didn't want to talk. I told her, I can't talk about it. I told her basically, I'm just a student. They're teaching me. Don't make this into a thing.

29:18Alex Hai:Consuelo said, listen, I recognize that you don't want to talk to me, that you're apprehensive and that this might be difficult. And I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gondoliers.

29:28David Conrad:But this is an important story.

29:36Alex Hai:You're a pioneer.

29:37Kristen Clark:I can't ignore you. And so Consuelo said, There are two options. I'm going to write the story no matter what, so you can either talk to me, and we can do the story together, or I can write what I think.

29:50David Conrad:That was the offer. You know, I said, it can't go out now. And she said, it will. It will. And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait?

30:03Alex Hai:Well, there were journalists coming from all over the place, you know. I think the story was going to get out there and somebody was going to write it.

30:09Kristen Clark:And Alex never sort of stopped and was like, listen, Consuelo or whoever, let me just tell you the real story. The way out of this is to speak and yet he stays quiet.

30:20Alex Hai:Right.

30:20Kristen Clark:Do you have a sense why?

30:22Alex Hai:I mean, so just to kind of give like some like data points that might be helpful in understanding kind of where we were. So we're talking 1997.

30:32Alex Hai:Just to give you like a corollary thing, where we were in our discourse around LGBT issues was like Ellen DeGeneres, I think, that year.

30:39David Conrad:This is so hard, but I...

30:41Alex Hai:Came out on her show. I think I've realized that I am... I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word? And like shortly after it was canceled. Caitlyn Jenner was just a few years ago. Like we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was. that wasn't a conversation that we were having in public. Can you imagine what it would be like to be like, guys, guys, guys, don't worry though, I'm actually a man. That wouldn't have gone over so well with the dudes at the gondola station.

31:10Kristen Clark:Yeah, yeah. So what ended up happening after Consuelo and Alex had the showdown about the article?

31:17Alex Hai:Well, a couple days later, Alex was on the way to the gondola station. I found it in the newspaper shop.

31:25David Conrad:The headline?

31:29Alex Hai:A woman is challenging the gondoliers.

31:36Kristen Clark:So I was like, oh my God, this is going to be hell.

31:42Alex Hai:So it's in the newspaper stand. Alex shows up at the gondolier station, and of course there's a big hello.

31:47Kristen Clark:A big unfriendly hello.

31:48Alex Hai:Yeah, just like a, oh, hello, gondoliera.

31:51David Conrad:Those boys, they got really, really angry. They were like, we do everything to teach you well. and, you know, now you're challenging us. Alex says a lot of the gondoliers stopped talking to him. They wouldn't even let him wash their boats. And then, you know, of course, there were the ones who said, I told you in the beginning. Told you she was just going to blab to the press. A woman is not a good thing. The whole thing, you know, was like a little stone becoming a huge, huge thing.

32:20Alex Hai:By the way, this is right, this is coming right before Alex is about to take the very first exam. There's actually a series of exams, and it gets a little complicated, but eventually, anybody who wants to be a gondolier has to take this rowing test.

32:34Kristen Clark:And by all accounts, Alex was good.

32:38Alex Hai:Like, we talked to the guy who was the head of the Gondoliers Association at that time. This guy, Fulvio Scarpo, was like...

32:45Kristen Clark:Alex, for me, is more good than the other men gondoliers. And this is the head of the guild?

32:54Alex Hai:Yeah. Yeah, and we also talked to this legendary rower named Franco Crea.

33:00Kristen Clark:And he was also like, Alex is better than most of the guys.

33:09Alex Hai:So anyway, Alex takes the test and...

33:12David Conrad:I failed the exam.

33:14Alex Hai:Which wouldn't have been, that by itself wouldn't have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people failed the first exam. But the thing was, there was a feeling that like something deeply unfair was happening.

33:29Kristen Clark:According to Consuelo, a lot of people started to think maybe the fix was in.

33:33David Conrad:There were other boys there who failed, who were better than other boys who did not fail.

33:39Alex Hai:Alex says suspiciously, pretty much all the people that passed were sons of gondoliers or from gondolier families.

33:44David Conrad:Because they have had the right last name. So then I got angry. I got a lawyer.

33:52Kristen Clark:Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practice is, how corrupt this association is. I wanted that the exam is repeated for everybody.

34:00Alex Hai:And this lawyer was negotiating and the Gondoliers Association was like, if we let everyone retake the test, that will basically be admitting that we favor certain families over other families.

34:10Kristen Clark:That was exactly what I wanted. But it's not what they wanted.

34:13Alex Hai:They said, we don't want the bad press of this. But then, and this is another moment, according to Alex, where his story just gets hijacked.

34:20David Conrad:My lawyer negotiated without my permission.

34:24Alex Hai:According to Alex, without telling him, the lawyer, together with the Gondoliers Association, dug up this old law that says because Alex is a woman, I mean, he's not, he's a man, but they thought he was a woman. And this law says that as a woman, he had the right to take the test again, this time with women judges in the boat. When she came back and said, okay, here's what we're going to do, do you remember what you said? I was pissed.

34:48David Conrad:I was very upset. That was not what I wanted. It has nothing to do with men or women.

34:54Alex Hai:Do you think she was your champion because she identified with you?

34:58David Conrad:Yeah, for sure. It was not my story.

35:00Kristen Clark:It's her story. But, unfortunately for Alex, as soon as the lawyer did that, it became everyone's story. Oh, yeah. Because the press, there ran with it. In the next two months, every paper in town was writing about it.

35:16David Conrad:Suspended by a gondolier's examination. Alexandra, Mrs. Daxan. That gondola banned from foreigners. Then, the story went global. German catches a crab in her beat to become Bani's first woman gondolier. Sexist sink first female gondolier. Girl gondolier fights a male tradition. Male gondolier blames chauvinism.

35:37Alex Hai:And then, things escalate into a full-blown gender battle. The gondoliers are, of course, super pissed because of all this press that they're getting. We talked to a couple of key, like, gondolier guys.

35:47David Conrad:Alexandra Haye. Well, no, no, no.

35:49Alex Hai:They have some thoughts and feelings about him.

35:51David Conrad:She had to pass a test. She didn't. It's a disaster.

35:55Alex Hai:Alex says at one point things got so bad.

35:57David Conrad:That was one of them who was saying, you know, I'm going to wait for you in a small little street with a knife and I'm going to kill you. So I grabbed the guy and I said, where's your knife? I'm here. Get it out. You know? Do it. That was one episode. There are many others.

36:15Alex Hai:So on the one side, Alex said he has gondoliers wanting to knife him. On the other...

36:20David Conrad:It was terrible because then feminism kicked in.

36:23Alex Hai:Alex said he had all these women rushing in to save him. Wait, wait, you want me to like... Because they thought he was a she. We read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed. and had called foul, saying that the Venetians were mean and, you know, sexist and wouldn't let women become gondoliers. This is Jane Caperell. She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time.

36:47David Conrad:What women, by the way? Like, there aren't any.

36:49Alex Hai:Well, so there weren't any women gondoliers at that time, but there's a whole community of female rowers. They have teams and they race. I've been doing Venetian rowing for over 20 years. And being a female rower in Venice was very difficult. Elena, this woman rower I was talking to.

37:07Kristen Clark:Last week I was with my rowing partner.

37:10Alex Hai:She was like, I'm routinely, when I'm out on the water, like old men yell at me and say,

37:14Kristen Clark:Hey, what you doing? Return back home in the kitchen,

37:18David Conrad:cooking or cleaning your house. Why are you here? Don't you know you're just a contorno? You're just a side dish.

37:25Alex Hai:They both told me when it comes to racing, there's a big discrepancy in the prize money.

37:29David Conrad:The men are getting like four times as much prize money as the women.

37:34Kristen Clark:We are now trying to convince the city of Venice, who gives prizes, that we are like men. We are not less than them.

37:44Alex Hai:We hear all these women who have been, you know, incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken seriously in the sport. We are here. We can do this. And when they saw this press about Alex fighting the gondoliers, they reached out. I sent one of the other concierge down to speak to her.

37:58David Conrad:You know, come to our club and come and work with us and help us out, help us teach people.

38:03Alex Hai:you've got your back. But she wasn't interested.

38:06David Conrad:No, of course not.

38:07Alex Hai:Because to Alex there are two problems.

38:09David Conrad:First of all, you cannot compare the gondolier rowers with the racing rowers.

38:15Alex Hai:There are two different styles of rowing. And second of all, the sense I got was that it was kind of like, I don't want to row with you. You guys all wear matching white skirts. Like, not my thing. So

38:24David Conrad:I remember there was a lot of resentment. You're a woman. How can't you be one of us in this battle for the equality. Some people, they see me and then they are convinced that I'm a feminist, that I am one of them,

38:39Kristen Clark:and I'm not. And all of this comes to a head in October of 2004, when Alex has to retake the test, and this time with champion women rowers in the boat, judging him. There was a lot of pressure.

38:57Alex Hai:Everything about this test is supposed to be a secret. The location of the test, the path that Alex is going to row. I've had no clue where we're going to go. But suspiciously, as Alex stepped into the boat, he noticed that there was a huge crowd lined up all the way down the canal. Gondoliers and their friends. And they're shouting and yelling.

39:16David Conrad:People were screaming all kinds of swear words and all kinds of go home. I cannot imagine the hate.

39:27Alex Hai:He had female rowers in the boat glaring at him. there's press lined up along the entire way.

39:32David Conrad:Plus the tourists, plus everybody. It was full of people. I felt like I'm in a ring.

39:42David Conrad:I tried to block it all out because I needed to do an exam.

39:51David Conrad:I wanted to do a good performance.

40:01David Conrad:and I wasn't able.

40:10David Conrad:It was hell, one of the worst, worst days of my entire life. I really don't, I don't wish that to nobody. That was real hell.

40:54Kristen Clark:We'll see you next time. one and a member FDIC. As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening with Here's the Scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with me, your host, Gassman Vasugian. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News' trusted journalist. It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative, bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world. From the front page to the zeitgeist, Here's the Scoop from NBC News. Listen daily wherever you get your podcasts.

41:58Kristen Clark:agree with. Yeah. And what's interesting, according to Kristen, is just how easy it is to do that to someone.

42:04Alex Hai:Okay. So I'll tell you, as we were doing the interviewing and the reporting, I'm like, I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story. I'm feeling like, oh man, I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really icky. And so I feel like I'm kind of getting it. And I'm like understanding the full Alex. And like, it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender. So Alex's story isn't about gender at all. And for me, that made sense because I was like, in my life, gender has been a box. Like even when you're in the right box, gender is a box and it can feel shitty to be in that box.

42:39Alex Hai:And so I was like, yeah, let's bust open those boxes together. We're going to show people who you are, Alex. But then we would have these moments where I would be like, hmm, wait a second. Like one night when we were in Venice We were like trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant And like this guy is like trying to parallel park his boat And Alex is kind of sitting there like chuckling at him And you can hear like David chuckling in the background And so the two of them are like you know joking about it And then Alex says like he drives like a woman

43:14David Conrad:Like an old lady

43:18Alex Hai:And I was like you know and kind of rolled my eyes at it But then later at the dinner, he was like, you know, though, like, I don't really think that like a real woman could do this job. And he was like all like macho about it.

43:34David Conrad:Yeah, I remember you were shocked that I was saying such a macho thing. I remember that. No, of course, you are very right. A woman can do everything. But this job is going to be very tough because it's a real cruel community. I mean, it's very cruel and rough.

44:00Alex Hai:But when you said that, I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of it being equal. I mean, I was just super confused. Like, I don't know. I just want to know what you think.

44:19David Conrad:What do you want to know exactly? No, tell me what you want to know exactly.

44:25Alex Hai:I'll admit, in the moment, I asked a kind of clumsy question. Do you feel... But it was just because he seemed to be almost like prodding me, you know, having fun and winking at David. Do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different team from me?

44:42David Conrad:Okay.

44:47David Conrad:I am on David's team but you can't see that because you identify with me but that is not I can't help that how can I explain it to you let's put it this way when I'm in a group of women for example and they start to talk I feel uncomfortable the chat things they have I call it chicken jack. It's not really my cup of tea, you know. I like it. It can amuse me. But the minute they think that I am one of them, it doesn't amuse me anymore, and I feel uncomfortable. I'm a little alien there, because they think I am one of them and I'm not. When I'm with the boys, I feel comfortable. If it is a nice group of boys, which I like, then we have the same type of humor and, you know, the same stupid jokes about women.

45:50Alex Hai:For Alex, I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable being seen as a man but not as a woman, it runs very deep. For me, there is a difference between men and women. Not everybody or even every transgender person would feel this way. But the way that he sees it, if there were no differences...

46:07David Conrad:There would be no wish to do transition and there would be no transsexuality and things like that if it would be the same. But it isn't.

46:23Yeah.

46:25Kristen Clark:So you were seeing him as like a gender doesn't matter kind of icon and he was saying actually it does matter.

46:32Alex Hai:Yeah.

46:33Kristen Clark:Can I just ask a simpler question? When does he actually become the first female gondolier?

46:40Alex Hai:Well, so Alex couldn't get one of these 400 or so special gondolier licenses because he failed the test. In 2005, I opened up my own business. He figured out that if he partners up with businesses in town like hotels, he can actually row for them privately.

46:57David Conrad:At the time, I was looking at all the laws, and I found that it was possible to open up my own business without having a license. So I did.

47:05Kristen Clark:And so, for years, he was just kind of doing this, quietly. Then...

47:11David Conrad:Alexandra, she's not a gondolier. She's not a gondolier. Yes. She works for a hotel.

47:16Kristen Clark:Some of the gondoliers began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license. And, of course, they didn't like it. She didn't pass a test.

47:23Alex Hai:Saying, like, you can't do that.

47:25Kristen Clark:She's not part of our team.

47:26David Conrad:does not have a driver's license.

47:29Alex Hai:You have to be a member of this organization. You have to have a specific license in order to practice.

47:32David Conrad:What we can say? She's not a gondola driver. I got some threats, verbal threats, and damaging the gondola and things like that. All kinds of stupid little bullshit. So when they understood they cannot threaten me this way, then they pressured City Hall to change the law.

47:54Alex Hai:City Hall basically said, like, you can't row a gondola with tourists in it without a license.

48:01Kristen Clark:And the law passed and was signed and it became the real law.

48:03Alex Hai:Yeah. And so one day Alex is out on his boat and he just gets pulled over. And basically is told, you're breaking this new law. And so, I wanted to defend myself.

48:15Kristen Clark:So, we went on trial. In court, it was Alex, his one lawyer, City Hall and the Gondoliers Association. There are four lawyers. Four lawyers.

48:24David Conrad:I thought, you know, this is a lost case already.

48:28Alex Hai:But City Hall lost. City Hall fights back. Case goes to the highest court in the land.

48:36David Conrad:They're lost again. In front of a court with me, a little stranger from out of nowhere.

48:45Alex Hai:Now, technically, the decision just said hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need to. So if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a gondola, they can do that. But what that actually meant was that now, for the first time, Alex could be considered a gondolier.

49:09David Conrad:That was a huge deal. Massive. Along the canals, a woman paddles against the tide. New York Times came in. Woman takes on Vinny's gondola cartel. Chicago Tribune came in. First female gondolier rocked the boat. And Le Monde came in.

49:24Alex Hai:So this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice.

49:28Kristen Clark:The story went all over the world. And in every single one, the message was the same. We have our first woman gondolier.

49:52David Conrad:So that was something, it was unstoppable. I could not go in there and say, excuse me, you know, I'm not really, you know, identifying. No, it was gone. OK, it was done.

50:09Alex Hai:Alex, at this point in 2007, doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online. And so, of course, I need to have a website. People are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the first female gondolier in Venice. So it would have been stupid to try to go against all this.

50:33Kristen Clark:It was already written. So Alex decides to make his email, his Facebook page, and his website all prima gondoliera, or the first female gondolier. I'm wondering if creating a website with that name did that feel like you taking control of that narrative or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website?

50:58David Conrad:It's nothing to do with what I want. It's a label. I cannot change a label who has 20 years of history. Shut up!

51:13Alex Hai:Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender center they have near Venice.

51:18David Conrad:And she said, you are like in a cage. This is like a cage for you. You can't get really out of this, you know. It's a difficult situation. It's a very difficult situation.

51:35But I'm tired.

51:50Kristen Clark:Oh, violetta so

51:56Alex Hai:Ven ti mostrarti ballad By the time we met Alex, he'd been living almost 10 years like this, you know, just kind of between these two stories. At night, out to his close friends, but by day, giving these tours as the first female gondolier in Venice.

52:13Kristen Clark:And every few months, every new tourist season, these headlines would just regenerate. First female gondolier, first female gondolier, first female gondolier.

52:21Alex Hai:And when we left Venice, that's kind of where we left him. Kind of hanging in the middle of that. And the impression that we got is, maybe that's just going to be how it always is for him. But then...

52:40David Conrad:It's quite a while we didn't see each other.

52:43Alex Hai:Fast forward six months, we get an email from Alex. He says he's in San Francisco. I think things have been happening in your life. Yeah, he had some news.

52:55David Conrad:Well, you know, I remember when we were sitting, when we were last talking in Venice, and we were sitting on the terrace, I remember that I was already in, I knew there was something coming.

53:13David Conrad:But I wasn't sure what it was.

53:20David Conrad:It was a very difficult year. I was kind of depressed, which, you know, I'm not a depressed person, usually. And so I was hanging out. I was not moving much. I was hanging out on my sofa, and I was trying to think. and I was more and more every day I was unhappy about people telling me that I was a she and not a he. I don't know why, I got completely intolerant. Before I was like, I don't care what they say to me, I care that they're nice. And now I was like, I can't hear this anymore, this is so wrong.

54:06Kristen Clark:Alex was about to turn 50 at this point. And it turns out that part of what was happening was that he was beginning to go through the early stages of menopause.

54:18David Conrad:I was hot, I was tired, sweat breaking out for nothing.

54:24Alex Hai:After fighting with the gondoliers, fighting with the feminists, this was like a final insult.

54:29David Conrad:So I have this idea that hormones might help with how I feel. I start to take the testosterone that was on the 7th of November, which after six hours, I get the first smile on my face in nearly a year. Like, you know, I felt good. And the mood swings, they stopped. Yeah, so now I'm like, I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every day and I was like, who is this monster?

55:01Alex Hai:He decided to fly to San Francisco, meet with a doctor.

55:04David Conrad:Some people wait like two years or three years before they start to do a surgery. I wanted to do it now because for me it was something like now or never. So now I'm here in San Francisco. I've had top surgery on the 24th. That's about, yeah, four days ago. And I wanted to start this year with a body which is confirming me.

55:38David Conrad:people see me as the first woman that means something for many people it's not fair to them so I needed to say something I changed on the Facebook site, I changed the name now it's Alexei Gondola Tours and I did already a statement on my old website there is a statement it says

56:03Alex Hai:Dear guests, colleagues and friends, After holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body. I am not changing who I am. I am becoming who I am.

56:21Kristen Clark:And is he back in Venice now?

56:24Alex Hai:Yeah.

56:25Kristen Clark:Huh. And do you have any sense of what that's going to mean for his job or his life?

56:31David Conrad:I have no idea. I have no clue. I don't know how my voice is going to be. In a month it should drop. I have no idea how my face is going to look and my body is going to look in three years, three years from now. We all leave it as a surprise. Hoi, hoi. Hoi, hoi. Hoi.

57:02David Conrad:No idea. That's scary

57:51Kristen Clark:Thanks to reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad. Also thanks to Alexis Ungerer and Summer. And of course, a huge thanks to Alex. For sharing a very difficult story with us. Are you worried about what the responses might be to it?

58:06David Conrad:Oh my God, David, I'm a warrior. You think this is boring me? I've been to a worse, I guess.

58:14Alex Hai:I remember when we were sitting out on the balcony, you had said something like, I don't want to do another battle. Exactly.

58:20David Conrad:I don't want to do another battle. But if I have to, I will. Because I hope that I can at least help one person out there.

58:45Kristen Clark:Hey there, Sorin here again. So we released that episode in 2017. Now, of course, it's 2026. And when we last had heard from Alex, we left him really in the middle of a moment of change. And in the years since, we didn't hear much from him, but I have found myself thinking about him all the time. And I know other people on the staff have too. And then we heard that he'd written a book, which is actually being released here in the U.S. today, the day this episode comes out, which is June 26. And we're going to get to that in a second. But we didn't really know anything about how his transition went for him, both professionally and personally.

59:30Kristen Clark:So I decided the best thing I should do is just get a hold of him.

59:32David Conrad:Yes.

59:33Kristen Clark:Nine years it's been. I don't know where to begin, but maybe. Exactly.

59:37David Conrad:That's the problem because it's nine years and a lot of things happened.

59:41Kristen Clark:Turns out Alex has been through this sort of honestly mythic journey starting where we left off in 2017. Just as he's getting back to Venice after his time in San Francisco. He's starting a physical transformation, but it was at the very beginning and we weren't sure how that would affect his business.

59:59David Conrad:No, business was really wonderful from 2017 until 2019. I really have had a blast in that period. It was a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun at work.

1:00:11Kristen Clark:I think I read that you were having like celebrity people wanted to come ride your boat.

1:00:16David Conrad:Yes, well, I've had that before. But then, you know, also because I felt so comfortable finally in my body not to underestimate how that is pushing you forward in a very happy spot. And so I was in a very good place.

1:00:32Kristen Clark:And it was was the body matching comfort level like was that immediate or did it take time?

1:00:38David Conrad:Well, it takes time. That's why you have this period, which is called puberty, where you basically have a second one that is demanding. You know, obviously, when you have a certain age, you do not want to get silly anymore and do silly stuff and think silly things. But that is exactly what happens because you need to basically reconsider everything once more from the colors you like, from the food you like, from your sexuality, you know, everything. That's kind of amazing. Yeah, it is a pretty amazing period of time.

1:01:19Kristen Clark:What's happening at the same time to your relationships? How is it affecting the way you were relating to other people?

1:01:25David Conrad:I remember one gondolier, you know, passing by and saying, hey, Alex, you need to cure this cold you have. I mean, you have this for weeks now. You need to cure the cold.

1:01:36Kristen Clark:Because of the voice.

1:01:37David Conrad:Because of the voice. Yeah. And I was cracking up because that was very funny.

1:01:43Kristen Clark:I mean, do most people know what you're doing or nobody even knows?

1:01:47David Conrad:Well, nobody really knew because I didn't tell anybody. You know, I was just letting people guess. But then, you know, obviously once somebody understood it, the whole city knew it. You know, it was like a wildfire. And so then I got, you know, funny questions, very, how you call it? Questions you don't want to hear and you don't want to answer to it. But as I was the only out transgender at the time, obviously, you know, people asked me all kinds of questions about it.

1:02:18Kristen Clark:Is it an awkward but friendly curiosity or sort of like a... No, it's just pervert. Okay. Yes. Unfortunately. Most of the time.

1:02:28David Conrad:Most of the time. Obviously, there were also some nice questions and true interest, but that was maybe 5 % of it. The rest was being very interested in a very pervert way.

1:02:43Kristen Clark:I find myself thinking back and being very interested in your relationship to the other gondoliers. like before everything went bad with the test and the women rowers and the lawsuits, that group of men, you described it as a very happy community, a happy home, a happy place. And it was obviously felt like something that got taken from you. But I don't know if there were parts of it that you kept.

1:03:05David Conrad:That question now becomes a little bit complicated. I was very surprised. Does it work? And how does it work? And is it longer than what I have? And so on and so forth. So, you know, that was quite interesting. Yeah.

1:03:22Kristen Clark:The business is okay. People are being perverts. No, the business was wonderful.

1:03:27David Conrad:The business couldn't have been better, really couldn't. So I was really on my way up to the very top. And then I got stopped by the police in the 18th of October in 2019. and I thought it was like a normal procedure of controlling something or whatnot. But then I understood that they want to confiscate the gondola. But they didn't tell me why. So that's what happened. My gondola got taken away from me. And that for me was like, if you are a musician, you do not take the instrument away. But it was not only the instrument they were taking away. They were taking away the music as well and the right to play on another instrument.

1:04:18David Conrad:It was like there was nothing. All of a sudden, zero.

1:04:22Kristen Clark:This was Pegasus, huh?

1:04:24David Conrad:That was Pegasus, yes. He is now property of the state of Italy since 2019.

1:04:32Kristen Clark:But why did this happen?

1:04:34David Conrad:I didn't know at the time what was happening, why it was happening.

1:04:38Kristen Clark:Well, you weren't able to confirm what exactly went down with Alex's boat, but according to Alex...

1:04:44David Conrad:I found out years later, years later, I found out that there was no reason whatsoever to do this except for transphobia.

1:04:54Kristen Clark:Just discrimination and hate.

1:04:56David Conrad:Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I needed to leave because the situation became harsh. Because City Hall allowed the request of the Gondoliers Association and executed the confiscation of the gondola, the association felt very grand. They were proud and emboldened. Yes, exactly. It was becoming an unlivable situation because everywhere I was going by foot or by motorboat, I got screamed at and pointed on. And my friends were getting concerned that this may be going to escalate into physical violence.

1:05:43Kristen Clark:I mean, as we know from so many examples, it's a very real threat.

1:05:47David Conrad:Right. I wasn't really afraid of them being physical violent because they are such cowards. However, it was for me unbearable to be in Venice and not be capable of working. And so, you know, this was like just a losing game for me. So I decided to leave Venice. So I canceled my apartment, my bank accounts, everything. I canceled everything and I sold everything. And I went to Switzerland for a while and then COVID kicked in. Oh my God. And basically I was drifting being without a proper home for six years. I didn't want to return to Germany. That was for me like to go backwards, which I hate to do.

1:06:33David Conrad:But somehow there was no other option at a certain point because I spent all the savings I've had in those five years or four years. And then I needed to go back into my country where I was born and where I have the passport from and ask the government for support. And that was not an easy thing to do. That was another very shameful idea. And I've done that only and exclusively after there was no other possibility or solution. But I couldn't find housing and I couldn't find a job. It was like I was stuck in the mud for six years. I will always be a gondolier in the sense of you're once a gondolier, you're always a gondolier.

1:07:23David Conrad:Because it is not a job, but it is a handcraft. And it's so few people in the world who are doing that. It's something so unique. You cannot just leave that away. All of this needs to be cancelled and forgotten. That was very difficult to let go. That was the most difficult thing. And the second most difficult thing was Berlin, because I did not like Berlin. And, you know, from Venice, which is very tiny, to come into a big city, which is quite ugly, on the first side at least, that was very difficult to swallow for me. And so I got depressed and didn't leave the house for quite a while. And then, you know, I needed to wake up from that.

1:08:14David Conrad:But it was incredibly difficult because I really was in such a black hole. And I couldn't find my way out. I didn't saw a light. I didn't ask for help. And that was the most cruel thing I've ever done to myself. You know what I mean? In the end, it was not the enemy. It was myself. I destroyed myself.

1:08:39Kristen Clark:By not fighting back. Yeah.

1:08:42David Conrad:I felt I was tired. I was too tired. Obviously, you ask yourself, what did I do wrong? Did I do anything which provoked this somehow? You think there is partially a fault somewhere. You did something wrong somewhere. Otherwise, this wouldn't have happened. You cannot imagine that people are so evil that they destroy your existence only because they hate you. I mean, it's hard to believe. And so I was searching my own fault in all this.

1:09:20Kristen Clark:What let you or helped you or pushed you to climb out?

1:09:24David Conrad:Good question. If you remember, the last time we talked, I said that I am a warrior. and then whatever happens, I'm going to fight back. And so, you know, there was this little, tiny, little, very low voice knocking and saying, hey, you need to get the hell out of this situation. You are hurting yourself. Get your stuff together and find a way to snap out of there.

1:09:50Kristen Clark:And I did. What was your first move? To start writing? To start leaving the apartment? To start?

1:09:56David Conrad:I needed to start moving my body somehow. Just a little bit. you know, a shoulder or a foot or just to stand up and to sit down again. I was so tired. And then when I got better, my health really collapsed. When I thought now I'm better, like mentally I was better, then my health was saying, hello, I'm here too, and collapsed. Very difficult situation, which I do not wish to nobody, because to snap out of this kind of depression and misfortune is nearly impossible.

1:10:35Kristen Clark:But at some point you do start creating, like writing, I assume, or maybe thinking about film again.

1:10:41David Conrad:Yeah, you know, when I lost my existence, the first thing I was doing, I knew I needed to stay in motion. So I made a small film, which was quite successful for what it was. but it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out because of COVID. It was ignored in Germany, but it's shown now next weekend in Hamburg at the Short Film Festival. Really? For the very first time, so it has still a premiere status and they are like four years late, but you know, who cares? So that's going to be funny because I studied visual communication in Hamburg and it's shown in the cinema. I always dreamt that I wanted to show a movie there.

1:11:22David Conrad:That, I just got goosebumps. Yeah, that is one of those magic, crazy things which happened.

1:11:31Kristen Clark:That's a nice return.

1:11:33David Conrad:Yes.

1:11:33Kristen Clark:What's the name of the film?

1:11:35David Conrad:Vini Etiam. That's a Venetian saying. It means, I shall come again. And so I was doing that little film and I was writing the book in the COVID time. I fed time. So I was writing this thing on my iPad with two fingers. Because, you know, I'm a gondolier. I'm not an IT engineer or an author or whatnot. So I was writing this with two fingers on my iPad. And all this was not going anywhere. There was nothing coming out of what I was doing. And I couldn't find a proper job. When I came to Berlin, for me, my life was over. And it was very interesting because Berlin was from day one very, very kind to me.

1:12:21David Conrad:I've got support from people I didn't know and I've got some job proposals and, you know, things were moving in a better direction. But I was not ready for it. I was like, oh, you know, I just want to die because I didn't I didn't want to go back to Germany. It took me years to understand that Berlin is, how can I say, it's softer than you think it is. There's a lot of love here. There's a lot of community here. And there are so many different worlds here. Are you now happy in Berlin? Now I am happy in Berlin. And that is kind of new in the sense I'm like, I'm driving around, you know, in Berlin and I'm like, oh, it's not too bad.

1:13:08David Conrad:Or, you know, where before I was like, oh, my God, this is unbearable. This is so ugly. And now I'm like, oh, it's not so bad. Come on. There are beautiful places here. Don't get me wrong. There are beautiful parts and sections here. But obviously, after Venice, everything is ugly.

1:13:25Kristen Clark:Yeah. Do you still want to go back?

1:13:29David Conrad:I knew that question would come.

1:13:34David Conrad:Yes, I would. I would. To row. No, no. I think I'm physically not capable anymore to do that because I was really, really sick. And it is quite a wonder that I'm still alive. However, Venice is so much more for me than the gondoliering. It's my hometown. This is where I belong. Yeah, I understand that. However, Berlin was so kind, even when I was rejecting Berlin, Berlin was not giving up on me. And I have a big thank you in my heart for Berlin, because Berlin really saved me.

1:14:18Kristen Clark:And then the book, when does the book come?

1:14:20David Conrad:The book is coming out in New York on the 26th of June.

1:14:25Kristen Clark:I feel, it feels good. It makes me happy to hear this arc of life for you.

1:14:33David Conrad:I can only tell people never give up. I really hope that the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate. Because hate is absurd and so stupid and so unnecessary. There's space for everybody and I don't understand why this intolerance needs to happen. And I do not need to tell you that the transgender community is affected harshly and deeply and extremely by it. I share that hope. I just wonder why I need to pay such a high price just in order to be happy with myself. That doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. Because I became who I am and I paid an extremely high price for it.

1:15:35David Conrad:I nearly lost myself in it. And I think that is something which I hope will not ever happen again to somebody else in my position.

1:15:54Kristen Clark:One final note, just a few days before we put this episode up. Alex was traveling to New York City to have a release party for his book. And he told me that he was pulled aside by border control, interrogated, and actually detained for a while in New Jersey. And he had to go back to Berlin, where he is again now.

1:16:21Kristen Clark:Big, big thanks to Alex for giving us his time once again, for being so open and honest and direct. It's always a pleasure talking to him. You can order Alex's book on the Pegasus Publishers website. It's called The Gondolier by Alex Hai. That's H-A-I. Definitely go check it out. One last note. If you're transgender and living in the U.S. and you're struggling or you need community or support or resources, always remember that you can call the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860. I'm Soren Wheeler. This is Radiolab. Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California, and here are the staff credits.

1:17:14Kristen Clark:Radiolab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. Soren Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nainasambandan, Matt Keelty, Mona Modgauker, Alex Neeson, Sarah Kari, Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand, Joanna Strogatz, Anissa Vitsa, Arian Wack, Molly Webster, and Jessica. Young, with help from Gabby Santis and Maya Appleby-Milamed. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Anjali Mercado, and Sophie Semayi.

1:18:05Kristen Clark:Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radiolab Science Programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

1:18:25Kristen Clark:Radio Lab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder that Capital One Bank Guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash Bank Guy. Capital One and a member FDIC.