The Shoe Thrower

21:45I was in the tech shower. Nice. And I talked to myself. Like, what do I do? I need to do something. Yes. And that is when the idea pops into his head. I should throw a shoe at George L.B. Bush. Yes. Yes, he is. He is. Okay, that's a great idea. And I kept thinking about it every single day. Every day when I was going to work, I see him on TV. I say, I swear, as soon as I see you, I'm going to throw my shoe at you.

22:26I don't think I fully understand, like, how did you even get the idea to throw a shoe? Like, I understand you were angry and you were, you know, all this was building up over a long period of time. But where does the idea to throw a shoe come from? In my mind. In my evil. In Shai Althini. That loosely translates to mischief, by the way. No, but there's so many ways to do Shai Althini, right? Like, you could have screamed at him. You could have waved a flag. You could have asked him a really pointed question. You could have demanded that he apologize. But why shoo? Exactly. That's a good point.

23:08I want to speak in Arabic to explain my idea. Exactly. Sure. A key reason was the ultimate gift that you can give in the Arab culture is roses. So it's a huge thing. And that is why Muntadhar, he said, I wanted to do something completely the opposite of roses. The complete opposite of that is actually what people wear in their feet, which is the shoe. You know, this is a thing in Muslim cultures, but probably a lot of cultures around the world. You know, shoes are unclean. You don't bring them into the house. Especially in Arab cultures, it's an insult to show someone the bottom of your shoe.

23:56Sarah Qari:It's like, here's what I think of you. You're beneath me. Yeah, exactly. For our culture, it's by far the most degrading thing to do to somebody. For example, our mothers, they use slippers on our children. In our culture, and maybe in your culture as well. Definitely. So that is where it came from. And Muntalar also told me, you know, look, during the occupation, There were two types of resistance in Iraq. One which was the armed resistance, like militias that had cropped up, fighting the American troops. And then on the other hand, you had the intellectual resistance. And I felt that I want to be part of the intellectual resistance, and hence why I decided to throw the shoe.

24:54I mean, throwing a shoe is not intellectual resistance. Like, did you realize you were crossing a line beyond just intellectual resistance into something else? You cannot put yourself in my shoe to know what happened in my mind in this moment. I'm actually stunned by your reaction. Really?

25:25Because I just told you that half a million children have been killed. Many people have suffered for years and years. And you were just listening and you just acted like it's okay. It's kind of like No, no, no. It's understandable. Let me just translate for you. Sorry, let me... Yeah, I just want to say, Muntada, it's not that. It's not that I don't think. Let me finish. I'm not obliged to kind of get a reaction according to your Western standard. And he's saying, let me just, please let me finish because actually he said a lot. He said, yes, I am a journalist.

26:19I've been documenting a lot. whether it's video, audio, written pieces. No one has listened. No one has done anything. No one was prosecuted. The Americans did not even get my stories. I wanted people to once stop and pause and ask, who is Zahra? What happened to Iraqis? Who are the people who were suffering? By this action, which was a very intentional action, I made the world ask the question, why this shoe was thrown? Hence why it's been almost 18 years and he's still doing all of these interviews to tell the world why he threw a shoe.

27:13If he wants doing just a question that could embarrass the American president, this is not going to be enough. Because that question could be washed away. No, I totally understand. And Muntadar, the reason I'm asking so many questions about this is because this is why I wanted to talk to you, honestly. Like the reason I thought of you, one night, almost two years ago, I was reading the news about Gaza and I was feeling so angry. And I was like in bed. I was trying to go to sleep. OK. And I was just so, so, so angry. And I, you know, I'm a journalist. I was like, and I don't know if you had this, but here in the US, like, there's a lot of pressure on journalists like, oh, stay neutral, just say the facts.

28:05Don't say how you actually feel. Don't say anything political, because then people will think that you're biased. Like, I was feeling like, I was feeling like being a journalist was like having handcuffs on. Like, I can't say that this is something horrible that's happening. And I swear to God, I don't know why, but in this moment, I thought of you. I thought of what you did. And that's why I want to understand where that idea came from. There's so many different options you had, and you picked one specific option, right? Which is, I'm going to throw a shoe. In some moments, I actually thought maybe I should be like an armed resistance.

28:52For example, one time I was called by someone who told me that American soldiers raided the house and then they raped his wife and his sisters. So I went there and I talked to the women who were weeping and they covered their faces because of the shame. The tears were wetting their veil. I was very angry. And actually, as soon as I walked out from the house, I saw a Humvee, and Americans were standing just outside that Humvee, smoking and laughing and joking. That's a true story. And I thought, honestly, if I could have a weapon, I probably would have killed them. Why did you decide not to do that?

29:50Because for me, these crimes that I've seen and I've covered, it's not enough to prosecute one soldier or like kill one soldier or a couple of them. At the end of the day, those are just people who are following the command. The most important thing is to go to the head of the snake, the person who is giving the orders and who actually allowed and enabled this disaster to happen. When you were thinking about what to do to George W. Bush, did you think of any other options? Did you think of throwing anything worse than a shoe?

30:34No, I never thought of throwing anything but a shoe. And I tell you why. If I have killed the president of the United States, he will become a hero. He will be celebrated as a victim and as a martyr. It's so interesting because it's like you had to find the perfect sweet spot between the two options, right? One is the completely nonviolent option, which is like keep reporting or something, ask a really tough question or something. And then the other side is like do something that's actually violent. And this is like somewhere in the middle. And I find that very interesting. It's not quite violent, although maybe, I don't know, maybe it's more on the violent side.

31:20But it's like it's somewhere in between the two options.

31:27It is actually, it's interesting you say about that fine line between violence and non-violent. So for example, Bosconi, the Italian prime minister in 2009, someone threw a vase at him. It was actually a small statue, but anyway. Oh, this is after you, 2009. 2009, December maybe. Yeah, okay. And he ends up bleeding. Oh. Do you see this picture? I can't see it too clearly. Can you describe it? Okay, one minute.

32:05It's of the Italian prime minister, and his face is full of blood. Despite him being a corrupt prime minister, people were sympathizing by him because he bled. Even I was sympathizing with the fact that As an old man, he was bleeding. To me, it's hard to, it's kind of hard to swallow. Okay, so tell me, Mandadhar, what happens next in the story? It sounds like you have this idea in like 2005. I think. Which is like three years before you actually do it, right? Yes. What happens in the meantime? Yes. And at this time, I was going to be with George W. Bush. I kept chasing Bush in multiple occasions.

32:54Oh, really? And I tried to attend his press conferences multiple times, and I did not succeed. I even one time wanted to go to Sharm el-Sheikh in order to attend the press conference. In Egypt? In Egypt, yes. And it didn't happen. And so I kept pursuing him. And pursuing George W. Bush, like, how did you do that? How did you figure out where he was going to be and try to track him down?

33:24You know, I am a journalist. So every single time I know there's a press conference, I try to follow it. And interesting enough.

33:37That incident that when I threw the shoe at him, I didn't even know he was going to be there. No way. Yes. Wait. Okay, so. That's an interesting story. Monsalder told me that in December of 2008, one day he's at work in the Baghdadia newsroom. It's the end of the day, time for him to get up to go home.

34:01But by six o 'clock, one of his colleagues turns to him and says, we need someone like one correspondent and two cameramen to go to cover a press conference. Like, can you go cover this? Because George W. Bush is going to be there. What do you think? What's your reaction? I'm shocked. I'm free. He asked his colleague to repeat himself. Like, are you sure? And then he turns to this other reporter. And I said, you need to go with the two cameramen. Like, you didn't want to go initially, Muntadhar?

34:36Sarah Qari:No. No, no, no. Really? Yeah, in fact, Muntadhar told me the next thing that he did was... He got in his car and he went home. Huh. Now, of course, we all know how the day is going to end, but the dramatic story of how it all actually goes down is coming after the break.

35:46Transcription by CastingWords This episode is supported by BetterHelp. Hey there, Lulu here. So apparently every year, BetterHelp does a survey called the State of the Stigma Report, where they survey over 2 ,000 Americans trying to figure out how people feel about seeking mental health support. Good news first, 85 % of the people surveyed said that seeking mental health support is a good thing, which is significantly up from last year's result. Which, okay, small study, but still fabulous, refreshing, take that stigma, boom. The only bummer is that 74 % of those same people said society discourages people from seeking the mental health support that they need.

36:26Why is that society? I say, let's all do what we can to de-stigmatize seeking professional help for mental health. I mean, I seek professional help for my teeth, for my hair. Why not get professional help for what's going on on the inside of the head? You know, I don't have some worries. Get a little support. but seriously if a friend or loved one comes to you seeming a little more overwhelmed or blue or scared than usual why not encourage them to seek help praise them for doing it and if they don't know where to begin one thing you could do is suggest better help a short questionnaire gets them matched with one of over 30 000 fully licensed therapists available at any time a day at the push of a button and if they don't like the first one they try remind them that they can switch therapists at any time as many times as it takes to find the right fit because mental health is important and None of us can do it on our own.

37:14So for any of you listening to this who are curious about therapy but worried about judgment, I say don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Radiolab. That's BetterHelp.com slash Radiolab. Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues, and on our podcast, Clock It!, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics. Clock It! is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news, so you can start to clock it too.

37:53Clock It! with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

38:03Sarah Qari:Hey, I'm Latif, this is Radiolab, and we are back with Sarakari. Yeah, so when we left off, Muntather had just found out that George Bush was going to be at a press conference in Baghdad. And instead of volunteering to go cover it, he hightailed it back home.

38:23And I run home because I was wearing a brand new shoes that I bought from Beirut, Lebanon. You didn't want to throw. I want to get the dirtiest and the ugliest one.

38:46And actually, I covered many massacres by the Americans before.

38:54Sarah Qari:So he's really thought this through. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like every last detail. What did the shoes look like? The ones you picked out? It was a very comfortable one And it was quite heavy Nice It was kind of like medical shoe, you know Like an orthopedic type of shoe? Yes I bought it from Egypt Okay Like color? Black Okay But size, you want to know the size? What size? My shoes, same number of George W. Bush president Same size. How did you know that? He's 43. President of United States. 43rd. So your size is 43 and he's the 43rd president? Is that what you're trying to say? Okay. It was completely a coincidence.

39:52Anyway, as he was driving over to the press conference, Muntadar said he just stopped for a second. Right on the banks of the Tigris River.

40:07It was sunset. So I stood by the river, and I was just staring at the river, at the sunset, and I thought to myself, this would be the last sunset I would ever see. Like, I might... There's going to be secret service there. Like, there's a good chance I get shot and don't make it out alive.

40:35Sarah Qari:So he's willing to die to do this? Yeah. Were you thinking through a game plan in your mind? No, I just want to show him the game. Just see him. Just listen. It was very simple. I just wanted to throw my shoe at him, and that's it. Can you just walk me through what happened step by step? Are you curious? I'm very curious. I think you know the answer to that question. Yes. So here goes. He told me he entered this area called the Green Zone. That was an area where most of the Saddam Hussein palaces were. It's where the Americans were based, pretty locked down. When I passed all of the checkpoints, I saw my colleagues there from the Baghdadia TV station.

41:28And they were kind of like, oh, OK, you came after all? And he said, no, no, no, I'm coming here as a citizen. I'm just coming here to watch. And he handed them his press credentials, his ID. And when he entered the press conference... conference.

41:51Somehow, he was the first person in there. He looked around. The hall was quite massive. I saw all of the Iraqi and American flags. Podium. I saw the red carpet. In the rows of chairs, He was trying to figure out where to sit. In the beginning, he went and sat on the first row. But then he thought, if I'm going to throw my shoe at him, then actually I'd better be a little bit behind. Why? Because that was too close. Because if I was on the front row and I throw the shoe, then I will be shot dead straight away. But if I am on the third row, they will think before shooting at me. As people were filing in, I could feel my heart was popping out of my chest.

42:52He could feel his body catching up to the reality of what he was about to do.

43:00Excitement, fear, what is it? And then right before they all took their seats, some guards came in. And they were giving us all of these orders. and it was quite degrading. They say, you know what? You're going to have to even be searched. And when he went up to get searched, there were two bodyguards. There was this one guard who was wearing a pilot suit. And the pilot one, he was extremely rude. After he was done searching somebody, he would literally smack them on their bottoms. and say, off you go. Wow.

43:50And Muttadar at this point was so amped up, you know, that if he got this guy, he just didn't even know how he was going to react. And thankfully I ended up getting searched by the other guy. And when he's getting searched, I ended up taking off my shoes. And when he put them back on, I wore them like slippers because I wanted to be able to take them off easily. I was laughing inside because I thought, like, if only he knew that this is my actual weapon. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Finally, when Montadhar sat back down, it was time. George W. Bush walked in. Thank you for your kind invitation. George W. Bush starts saying, I am quite hungry.

44:49He was just thinking that the only thing that the president is going to taste is his truth. When George Bush is giving the speech, are you listening to what he's saying? No, no, I don't know what he said. I'm in another world.

45:11I was reciting Quran. I was trying to do the whole ceremony as if like I am leaving this world. Oh, wow. He told me it felt like... Like a very nasty flu. And in this feverish haze, he heard this... Voice inside. And this voice in his head was saying... Like, look at your life. You're chief correspondent. You have your own program. People love you. You have a house. You have a car. Your future is wide open.

45:54Do you really have to do this?

45:59And I almost backed off and I thought, what am I doing? But suddenly... It was like he woke up. And then I was talking to myself and saying, if I back off now, I would call myself a coward. Every day for the rest of my life. If I lose my self-respect, I don't care if the rest of the world would respect me. And so, when George W. Bush neared the end of his speech, One way to being one. Clearly, George W. Bush was practicing a lot to say thank you in Arabic. When he finished his word. In an effort to be at least somewhat honorable and not take him by surprise, he shouted.

46:54This is my goodbye kiss to you, your dog. Mm-hmm. I never thought actually of saying that, but I just said it at that moment. Oh, you didn't plan to say that? No, no, no, no. How bad of an insult is it to call someone a dog? Is it a very bad insult? Yes, it's very bad.

47:20And George Bush, when he saw I lifted my arm, I could see his face went completely pale, very pale. And he froze. And then I threw the shoe at him. And he bent forward. And the shoe came above him. And then of course, he was taking the other shoe. Yeah, was that always the plan to throw both shoes? My original plan was just one shoe. Because I thought that as soon as I'm going to stand up and I throw one shoe, I'm going to be shot dead. But then when I threw the first one and there was nothing, I thought, OK, it's time for me to actually do the second side. So I threw the second one. Were you surprised at how quickly he dodged the shoes?

48:23I was mainly focusing on my own actions. And I kept releasing all of the anger from all of the stories that I've covered for all of the anger that I was building up inside me for years and years.

48:51swearing at him and his father. And I kept saying that this is for all of the Iraqis. They've killed, they've raped, they've affected. So I managed to actually release all of that in one time.

49:18The one who stopped me, it was an Iraqi journalist. He tried to strangle my hand, you know, hold my hand. But then after that, they all gathered on top of me. Then I was taken by the security of the Iraqi prime minister.

49:48Sarah Qari:We'll be back with the rest of the story after this quick break.

50:20This episode is supported by BetterHelp. Hey there, Lulu here. So apparently every year, BetterHelp does a survey called the State of the Stigma Report, where they survey over 2 ,000 Americans trying to figure out how people feel about seeking mental health support. Good news first, 85 % of the people surveyed said that seeking mental health support is a good thing, which is significantly up from last year's result. Which, okay, small study, but still fabulous, refreshing, take that stigma, boom. The only bummer is that 74 % of those same people said society discourages people from seeking the mental health support that they need.

50:55Why is that society? I say, let's all do what we can to de-stigmatize seeking professional help for mental health. I mean, I seek professional help for my teeth, for my hair. Why not get professional help for what's going on on the inside of the head? You know, iron out some worries, get a little support. but seriously if a friend or loved one comes to you seeming a little more overwhelmed or blue or scared than usual why not encourage them to seek help praise them for doing it and if they don't know where to begin one thing you could do is suggest better help a short questionnaire gets them matched with one of over 30 000 fully licensed therapists available at any time of day at the push of a button and if they don't like the first one they try remind them that they can switch therapists at any time as many times as it takes to find the right fit because mental health is important and None of us can do it on our own.

51:44So for any of you listening to this who are curious about therapy but worried about judgment, I say don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Radiolab. That's BetterHelp.com slash Radiolab. Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues. And on our podcast, Clock It!, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics. Clock It! is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news.

52:20So you can start to clock it too. Clock It! with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

52:34All right, so we ended with you getting tackled to the ground. For most people, obviously, this is the end of the story. But for Manthader, it was not. The bodyguards gathered on me. They were beating me really, really bad. They broke my teeth. They punched me in the eye. And then they were shouting, oh, he's a terrorist. He's a terrorist. An Iraqi court sentenced him to three years in prison. They stripped me completely and just kept me with my underwears. He claims he was tortured pretty horrifically. Doused with cold water, shocked with electricity, beaten with iron bars.

53:24Sarah Qari:Jesus.

53:28Maliki's staff kept telling me that people are resentful about what I did and that people hated me. And then they... They took me in solitary confinement and they locked me there for three months. Three months? Oh my goodness.

53:54The day was very long. The most important day I had in my life. Every single day was way longer than any days that I've ever spent in my entire life. On one of these days, Mantadar was sitting in his cell. I just looked at my cell's door, which had two holes only, so there was barely any light coming from it.

54:22Then, suddenly, I just saw Zahra.

54:32wearing an off-white dress. She came and she sat on the bed.

54:43I knew it was Zahra because her mother gave me some of her pictures when I was reporting on the story. And she just looked at me. and then then she disappeared

55:05I was just surprised he knows that this might be sound like he was crazy but this is actually what happened he told me the next thing he remembered was two officers entering his cell

55:25Two high-ranking officers from Maliki's office. And they were asking me why I threw the shoe at George W. Bush. And I just said, it's because they killed Zahra.

55:44Malthother says that some of the guards that are sympathetic to him began to leak me some information about what was going on while he was in prison. Because outside, the shoe throw struck a nerve. In the days after his arrest, people in multiple cities in Iraq poured out into the streets. In the news footage, you can see seas of people waving shoes in the air. And not just in Iraq or in the Middle East, but in Latin America, Europe, in the United States. I was just watching this really striking footage of these American activists throwing shoes at an effigy of Bush in front of the White House.

56:55But back to Muntahar. After nine months in prison, he ended up getting released.

57:05And by this point, like, a monument had been put up in his honor. One country had offered him a medal and another country had offered him a citizenship. I'm pretty sure several people have also offered their daughter's hand in marriage to him.

57:18Sarah Qari:No way. Yeah. Someone in Saudi Arabia reportedly bid$10 million for the shoes. Oh, my God. Although those allegedly were destroyed. Wow. And Muntadar's impact on the culture didn't even end there because, jumping ahead a bit. Premier Wednesday started badly. In the few years following Muntadar. There's many people used the shoes. A speech on economics interrupted with the new fashionable protest of throwing of a shoe. There's a rash of copycat shoe throwings at world leaders. Really? Yeah. The latest target of a shoe thrower is Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. You have a shoe yet again, this one directed at the prime minister.

57:58The prime minister of India. John Howard. The prime minister of Australia. Hillary Clinton was one I didn't even know about. What was that, a bat? That's somebody throwing something at me? And like truly, I'm not even joking, this is scratching the surface. There's a great Wikipedia entry of all the different shoe throwings.

58:25And I actually didn't realize that there was this much of a response to the shoe at the time until I started reporting on this. Which did make me wonder, like, before Muntadar, there was so much protest against the Iraq war already. Like, what was it about this act that made it take on a life of its own? And, you know, there are the obvious reasons, like the high profileness of it, the fact that it was like directly at George W. Bush, the symbolism of the shoe that we talked about earlier, the fact that there were so many cameras in the room and this era where things kind of newly could go viral.

59:02Yeah. Even just the timing of it all, like coming at this moment in the war where people were sick of what was going on. Yeah. So it does seem like this perfect storm of things. But I do still find myself thinking back to the conversation that Mothather and I had earlier about that Goldilocks space between violence and nonviolence. It's really something I don't think I ever thought about or even had the words for before I talked to him. Yeah, I'm just curious how you would describe that or what kind of name you would give that. Yeah. So I went looking for somebody who could help me think through it.

59:36Like, what's the label we put on the shoebox? I actually don't even know how to articulate it. Well, quasi nonviolence methods that include the use of very low levels of, I'm not really sure what the term would be. Fair. But I think there is that niche space. So this is Jamila Rakib. I am the executive director of the Albert Einstein Institution, which is an organization that studies and promotes the use of nonviolent action in conflict. And she says that niche space actually does have a rich history. There's this long history of people throwing objects at political leaders, at invaders, at occupiers.

1:00:24There's things like throwing eggs. Tomatoes, probably. Tomatoes, potatoes. Potatoes somehow feels more violent than eggs and tomatoes. You know what? That's a tricky one. I think turnips, there's a historical presence for turnips. It goes back to ancient Rome, where people disagreed with the policies of a particular governor and actually threw turnips at him. That sounds painful. Yeah. Heavy root vegetables. Yeah, that sounds more painful for sure. Yes, exactly. And lots of modern day examples come to mind, too. I heard about like pie throwing. Glitter. Oh, glitter. I mean, it's really hard to get off your skin.

1:01:06Didn't someone throw a milkshake at someone at some point? Yes. Nigel Farage. Right. The far right leader in the UK. Actually, important to note here also is the case of someone throwing the sandwich.

1:01:19Sarah Qari:Oh, I feel like I heard of that one. That was in D.C.? Is that right? Yes. At Border Patrol. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Part of the power of all of these, Jamila says, is it's a very memorable moment, the sheer spectacle of it. But also it shows that you can be anywhere at any time and someone can throw a object at you. No matter how powerful you are. Yeah. Because like one thing I think about with the shoe throw is how it ever so briefly flattens the hierarchy between Muntather and George W. Bush. Huh. You know? Like, it's like it's just they're no longer a citizen and a president or whatever. It's like it's just like a dude throwing a shoe and dude dodging a shoe.

1:01:59Right. Exactly. It's just like all the roles fall away. Which when you consider that one of them has the might of the world's most powerful military behind them and the other is a disenfranchised journalist in a war-torn country, it's kind of an extraordinary thing that they could even find themselves on the same plane.

1:02:18Sarah Qari:Yeah. Although I will say it didn't come without a cost because when Mithaler tried to get back to his life as a journalist... I cannot find any TV station to work with them. He couldn't find anyone to hire him. Why not? Because there are more TV stations in the Middle East, friends with Americans and friends with the Iraqi government. He claimed that in order to avoid upsetting either the Iraqi government or the American government, all of these Iraqi channels basically blacklisted him, which, you know, is a claim that's very hard to prove. But from multiple journalists that I've talked to who knew the media landscape around this time, it's definitely plausible.

1:03:04But do you think part of it is that they stopped taking you seriously as a journalist, that they didn't trust you to, I don't know, be neutral and not be an activist? No, no, not that reason. That's not reason. I mean, it was clear that many journalists were genuinely upset by what he did.

1:03:27Even if you just go back to the first moments after the shoe throw,

1:03:34the other journalists in the room that day, specifically some of the Iraqi journalists, were immediately apologizing directly to Bush. These journalists here were very apologetic. They were, you know, they were said, this doesn't represent the Iraqi people. But that's what happens in free societies where people try to draw attention to themselves. When I saw it, I felt embarrassed that a journalist would have done something like that. So this is Mace El-Bayah. You've heard her already translating my conversations with Muntadar. She is an Iraqi British journalist. Because it just wasn't professional.

1:04:14I mean, I don't think two journalists can disagree about that. I actually called her up after we were done with all of our interviews with Muntather. I think it was just hitting me that you have been through a lot of the same stuff as Muntather. Yeah. Like him, she was on the ground. I've been where Muntather was. I've been in the Greens. Reporting on the invasion as it was happening. For multiple international news outlets. And even though she wasn't one of the Iraqi journalists in the room that day, she told me that when she saw it, I was shocked about it. No one sane could have done that. I guess, yeah, tell me a little bit more about when I reached out to you and said, oh, I want to interview this guy.

1:04:54I don't know what, 18 years later. What did you think? What was your reaction to that? I was surprised because like out of all of the stories on Iraq, he would not come to my mind. You're like, there's so much more to say. What? Why him? I was genuinely surprised by your quest. But going through the interview, I got why you were interested in him. And you know what? It actually put him in a different light. How so? How did it put him in a different light for you? Because I always thought that it was just someone who was absolutely crazy and that it was spontaneous that this happened. But when I heard the story and heard about the thought process behind it, it took me back in time.

1:05:54I had a big flashback. Back in 2008, Mace had been reporting on the Iraq war for five years. Like in a quiet day would be probably 50 people killed. Wow. And she was reporting those numbers day in and day out. But she says she started to notice that as the years wore on. It became less and less sexy because obviously, you know, other things happen in the world. Fair enough. And then instead of taking a headline, it became the second big story, the third big story. And then suddenly became page three. So she said in some sense she understood how Muntala felt because even though people were seeing her reports, they just didn't have the same power anymore.

1:06:37People got used to it. And I understand it. I work in the news business. I understand how people are wired. It's like, OK, we know about this. What's the difference between what happened last month and what's happening today? Nothing. People move on. It's a number. It's a statistics. it's a figure but to me they are not numbers they are people I probably even know their names or people I might be related one way or another to them so when I had the interview with you and him I got his frustration I got when he was like no one cares really no one cares and he just wanted to grab attention it changed my mind about him I respected him more as as a person who actually really wanted to make a big statement.

1:07:30Sarah Qari:Do you have a sense that, like, I mean, obviously he was expressing a lot of his personal anger and frustration. It seems very clear that he inspired other protests. But did him throwing the shoe have a real measurable impact, like, in Iraq, on the war or whatever? Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, just deeply obsessed with the effectiveness question. When I called Jamila Rakib, I actually asked her that also. And it was interesting to watch her brain work through it. I think that it's more interesting how it fit into the larger puzzle of what's happening in the rest of society. She said, what you need to do is look at the shoe throw in the context of the larger struggle.

1:08:14In this case, the anti-occupation struggle. And ask, how did this act affect not just George Bush and one other, but how did this act affect all the characters involved in this struggle? Yes. So like, for example, the military. Did it make it more difficult for them to carry out their policies, their military operations? Did it persuade them in any way? Yeah. Or say like the people of Iraq. What impact did it have on ordinary Iraqis? Did it empower them? For Iraqi journalists. Did it make it harder for journalists to do their job in the future? Or even for people outside of Iraq? Did it bring more people to the cause?

1:08:51I'm curious. I mean, I don't know the answer to any of this. And honestly, I don't know either. I mean, in some cases, it felt hard to know definitively how a certain group was affected. and on balance, I just came out of the conversation feeling like it's just hard to imagine how, you know, this one moment changed all that much. But it did precisely what it set out to do, which is undermine the narrative that Iraqis were welcoming U.S. forces as liberators. Jamila reminded me that, you know, ending the occupation was never the goal of the shoe throw. It was always about getting people to pay attention.

1:09:40And in that sense, it's hard to deny the legacy of this thing. You know, I have more than 100K followers on Twitter. There's many people from America, okay? Yeah. Yesterday from America, he said, Montazar, we need you. America needs you. We will have a pile of shoes at your disposal. Please come throw our government in your shoes. Every time the American people said, please come to throw Biden. Please come to throw Trump. No, I know. And I feel like I see this on the Internet. Remember that dude that threw his shoes at George W. Bush? Like every couple of days, someone thinks of you.

1:10:35Sarah Qari:I'm a big fan of so many comedians. But the funniest thing that's ever happened on television in my life was that guy. Someone thinks of you. Someone reenacts the shoe throw on social media. Oh, that's funny. Someone just sent me a picture of someone on Instagram that made a ring. Etched into the ring is like a panorama of others throwing the shit. Whoa, wow. People are still thinking about and referencing this moment. Is it on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page? Oh, good question. I wonder if that is enough of a... I mean, I will say, like, it is one of the things that George W. Bush still gets asked about.

1:11:13Mr. President, before Donald Trump, there weren't a lot of funny clips. Like I just found a clip of George W. Bush going on Jimmy Kimmel just a few years ago. And the first thing that Jimmy Kimmel asks him about is this clip. Yeah, you were very you have very good reflexes. My guess is that Laura had done that before.

1:11:35Sarah Qari:Oh, it's it is on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page. Is it? Oh, yeah. Here's what it says. Is it a section? It's not a subheading. It's like a sub-subheading. Okay. Yeah, but it's like a little section. Oh, my God. It says 2008 Baghdad shoe-throwing incident. The word shoe comes up 14 times on this page. It's in multiple places on the Wikipedia page. So, like, you know, one could argue it has become a small part of the legacy of George W. Bush. Yeah. And even beyond that, honestly, I mean, the most powerful thing to me about the shoe throw is that it's this funny looking Trojan horse where initially you're like, oh, ha ha, that was crazy.

1:12:17Boom. Next thing you know, we're talking about messed up stuff that happened in Iraq. You know, like to me, that's what journalism is supposed to do. It's supposed to create an opening to talk about these things, especially in a world where I don't think most of us, Americans, at least, are eager to revisit all of the dark stuff that our country did during that time. I'm sorry, Sarah, but I think I'm going to have to go by now. You have to go? Okay. Back in the interview with Muntadar, by this time we were in our third sitting. Mace had to go. Mariam, are you okay taking over? I mean, we can try.

1:12:54You want to give it a try and we'll see how it goes? Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. And my producer in Baghdad, Mariam Doidar, took over for translation. You might have to like share earbuds. Now, Mediem, it so happens, in addition to helping me report parts of this story, is a documentary filmmaker who is making a film about one other. I think at one point he said to me, it's a shame I wasn't like a caterpillar, like a caterpillar with 40 pairs of shoes. I would have just kept throwing them like one after the other. And when she first met him back in 2018, he'd gone from trying to find a job as a journalist to trying to run for parliament in Iraq.

1:13:30Can you tell me about him running for office? Yeah. So there was a day when I was in Iraq and I went to a market and I was just pulling people off the street. And I just said like, hey, did you know that Muntadar Zaydi is running for parliament? What do you think about that? I remember there was one woman that was like, it's like a rough translation of a phrase, but she's like, oh, I would carry him and his shoes on my head, which is like an honor statement. She said, if I have a son, I'm going to name him Muntadar. So Montalhar's reputation did get him a lot of attention in the election. But I think the shoe throw only took him so far.

1:14:05Because come election day, he did get some votes, but not enough to win the seat. On some level, it does feel like for a lot of the world, the image of him did just get paused on him throwing the shoe. How about now? What are you doing these days? What's happening in your day-to-day life? I'm just writing something in social media about the corruptions and follow the news for the dumb Trump and what happened in our club. He does a lot of political commentating, cooking at home, playing the piano, which he does a lot, lighting candles. His favorite sounds are gardenia and vanilla. And I'm steady now.

1:14:46Oh. Today, I have a new specialized interior design. Interior design? In university. Oh, wow. Yes. What made you want to do that? I have more skills. It seems like he's also left the door open to maybe running for office again. But yeah, I would say like the shoe throw was, it didn't improve his life in the way I think a lot of people expected. No, the thing I want to know is like, do you miss being a journalist? Yes.

1:15:20What did you say? It's worth. He's trying to say it's worth it. It's worth it? Yes. Why was it worth it? The tax he paid was worth it for what he did, even though he lost a lot. For example, like working in the field of media, which he loves even up until this day. Yeah. This makes me think about... So as I was telling you yesterday, Muntala, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I've been having all of this anger and frustration about things that are happening in the world that I feel like I can't change. And I don't know what to do with it. You know? Yes, I get you. You get me? I get you.

1:16:05If you do like me, maybe you will without a job. Yeah, if you want a career change, you know what to do. I get you. I don't know. If I'm being honest with myself, I do wonder sometimes if I should continue being a journalist. Or maybe I should leave journalism and go do something else, like be an activist or work in politics or, you know, something different.

1:16:40No, don't leave journalism. I don't want you to leave your work, but your work should be for a cause and you can help to support in one way or another. Manthaler told me he still thinks that journalists do actually have real power to cause change, especially in today's world and especially in the U.S. He's talking about you in the third person in this, but he said, yes, because she has more freedom of speech, more freedom of movement, more freedom of influence.

1:17:13And there is a difference because you're in the heart of decision making in America.

1:17:20The thing he said to me was like, look, within the constraints of my life, I was trying to figure out what worked for me, how I could make a difference.

1:17:33And eventually I did think of something. Essentially, he was like, you're in very different circumstances. Everybody's case is different. Find something that works for you the way that throwing a shoe worked for me. But I guess the thing I was wondering as much as anything else was when he found that thing and did it, did it work for him? Like, did it actually help him as a person? You know, when we were talking before, you were telling me about the anger and the frustration that was building up inside of you, right? Like, that you had about Zahra or, you know, seeing that bombing. I guess I just want to know, did throwing the shoe help with any of those feelings?

1:18:23Yes, of course. It was an expression of my feelings. He told me he does still, of course, carry around a lot of those memories from the war.

1:18:34When I think of Zahra, I feel grief. I was thinking the other day when I was talking to you, if she was alive, she could be a student today or married or something. But at the same time, he told me this other story too. When I saw Zahra's mom at the house,

1:19:02she told me that when I threw the shoe, she felt like I got... The literal translation would be like, I got my daughter's rights, but I think it's like, I guess it would be the equivalent of like... Revenge, revenge for my... Revenge, revenge. It's something along the lines of justice, revenge, etc. Yes, revenge. For revenge? Revenge, yes. Oh, okay. I got it. I got it. I got it. Okay. Okay, I think that's all the questions that I have. Pariyam and Tadhar. Are you sure? Yeah, I think so. I think so. So you just say your name and however you...

1:19:56Sarah Qari:This episode was reported by Sara Kari with help from Mariam Dwedar. Translation by Mace Albeya and Mariam Dwedar. It was produced by Sara Kari. Sound design contributed by Sara Kari with mixing from Jeremy Bloom. And fact-checking by Emily Krieger and Hiba El-Orbani. If you want to know more about Mediam's work, and believe me when I say her documentary about Muntather, is going to be amazing. Keep an eye out for it. Or Mace's incredible journalism about Iraq. I will link to both of those and their social media in the episode description. Special thanks also to Azmat Khan and Mustafa Salim. If you liked this episode and want to hear more deep dives into the Bush-era war on terror, check out our episode 60 Words or our series The Other Latif.

1:20:47Sarah Qari:To find those, search for 60 Words Radiolab or the other latif radiolab on your favorite streaming platform. Okay, and just before we go, if you liked what you heard, you want more, you want in on that sweet, sweet Radiolab bonus content, you are in luck. We have a newsletter, usually comes out on Saturdays. There's all kinds of things in that newsletter, recommendations from the staff, just random things we like that don't fit in a podcast format. Like one thing we love that we put in there was a rejection letter we received from Verner Herzog that was especially florid and hilarious. Stuff we have coming up, like the live show that correspondent Dr.

1:21:35Sarah Qari:Avir Mitra and executive editor Soren Wheeler just did together. Yeah, it's just fun stuff. Subscribe at radiolab.org slash newsletter. Um, yeah.

1:22:10Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Our staff includes

1:22:35With help from Gabby Santos and Maya Appleby-Malamet. Our fact checkers are Norabel Blydia, Hilary Elkins, Rachel Gross, Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, and Sophie Samai.

1:23:09Bye-bye.