Adam Grant + Dr. Aliza: The Real Science of Effective Parenting

0:00It seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement. I am not a big fan. Like, I think it's not a religion, so we don't need to be religious about it. There is not a scientist in the world that's like, we are totally certain about anything in this particular very vulnerable area of raising kids. Humans are too complex. Recently, I had the absolute joy of sitting down with Adam Grant on his podcast, Rethinking, and it ended up being one of those conversations I've just kept coming back to in my own head ever since. We talked about parenting, about the research, about how that shapes how I think about raising humans and about some of the assumptions we hold so tightly that we forget to question.

0:47Adam is one of those rare thinkers who can make you feel both deeply seen and gently challenged in the same breath. And I'm so grateful to Adam and the Rethinking team that they're letting me reshare this here with you. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman, developmental psychologist, New York Times bestselling author, associate clinical professor at Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast. I'm so glad you're here. You've seen me parent a little bit. What am I doing wrong? Unfortunately, you're doing so much right that it's going to be a short start to this conversation. Not the answer I am looking for.

1:30What is something I can do better as a parent from what you've observed? I love that you like feedback. There is absolutely no way that I have observed something that you have done in your parenting that's going to get you what you're looking for. My only feedback might be that you have to stop thinking you can optimize here because you've done it. Let's talk about what you do right, because maybe you'll see that you're faking it in front of me, and then you'll realize how much more to do of that. Because I would say that I know how to be a phenomenal parent. I am only a phenomenal parent every once in a while.

2:07Let's actually start there. Okay. Why is there such a gap for you, given that you're a parenting expert? Because ultimately, I'm still a human being and I'm still susceptible to my mood, my inner engine, like my taking personally something, my self -regulation skills. And those are all the things that you need to be in top form to be an amazing parent. On the flip side, I feel I'm not berating myself for it because I also know how critical it is for our kids to see mistakes and bouncing back from mistakes and repair. So I'm like a little probably easier. If you asked my kids, they would say you could be a little less with the grace that you give yourself.

2:57Oh, wow. Okay, that's interesting. So I always think about these kinds of disconnects as knowing doing gaps. and I'm curious about what your biggest one is. My biggest one, and actually my younger daughter called me out on this. This was such a silly small thing, but it really does capture my parenting where I feel pretty good about how autonomy supportive I am. And we can talk about what that means, but it's pretty good parenting. And she was having a bat mitzvah. This was many years ago. And she was wearing a dress and I was getting shoes with her. and I said, get whatever shoes you want. Doesn't matter.

3:39And then I basically encouraged her to get silver instead of gold shoes, okay? And every shoe that she wanted, I was steering her away back to the silver shoes. And then I ordered a pair of silver shoes just in case for her to try on both. And she said to me, why don't you just tell me that I don't have a choice and that I can't wear whatever shoes I want? You know, like, why are you pretending that you're so open with this particular thing, why don't you just say, hey, there are certain things that I am not giving you a choice on. And don't make it out to be like, oh, I made this decision. And basically, she was calling me out on something I do at a much bigger scale that is a flaw, which is I want to do the thing that I should be doing of autonomy support.

4:25But sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm just I know so much better. And so I'm going to intervene when I shouldn't. even though if I were talking to someone else, I would say they have to make these mistakes. And obviously silver and gold shoes is a pretty low stakes mistake. But the idea is just, I am so good at knowing when I don't need to intervene, but I intervene anyway, many times. When I think about these kinds of challenges, I think one of the mistakes is that we treat every parenting interaction as if it's a unique event, as opposed to looking at them more systemically. And so part of what I find myself wanting to do here is to say, okay, you know that you want to respect your kid's autonomy.

5:10You also know occasionally you're going to have knowledge and preferences and want to guide them toward what's best. So why don't you just give yourself a quota? What if you were allowed to intervene once a month? And then in that moment, you would say, are shoes the hill that I want to die on? Right, exactly. Is this the battle worth fighting? Is there any research on this? Or have you ever thought about creating some kind of limit to keep yourself in check? Well, there's no study where somebody figured out how much support or stepping in, intervening just so. But we do have lots of research on the sort of extreme ends of it.

5:49if you were intrusive, like if you're intervening so much, like in those three bag studies that they do a lot of times with younger kids, they offer basically bags of toys, let's say a puzzle over different time periods. And they're looking at the interaction between the parent and the child. The parent is being watched and the way they're guiding or scaffolding or intrusively, you know, in a well-meaning way, helping gives a lot of insight into the kind of support that becomes problematic. So it's still support, but it just goes into this category of like too much. And I think that would be kind of analogous to what you're talking about of just, you know, kind of trying to figure out like, okay, I'm going to help out a little bit.

6:37I'm going to intervene a little bit, but I'm not going to intervene so much that they don't think they're capable of making decisions and mistakes without being afraid of both the outcome of that and also my reaction to it. Yep. That makes sense. It reminded me of one of my all-time favorite quotes. All time. It's from you. You said, all feelings are welcome, but all behaviors are not. Yeah. That's it. I cannot think of a more important bit of wisdom for parenting, but also for leadership, for all kinds of relationships. And I want to spend some time on this. So how did you come to this? Is this a research-informed observation?

7:21Give me the backstory. Basically, my whole job is to translate all this research to parents so that it can be applicable or to healthcare providers so it can be applicable. And I was thinking about how ultimately any parenting book you read, it comes down to, or any study, it ends up coming down to warmth, sensitivity on one end, and high demands. You can call it control. You can call it whatever you want. But it comes down to balancing those two things of support and demands. And how do you explain that in every context except that whatever question you ask about your kids pretty much with some variation comes down to all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.

8:09So you're giving both the warmth and sensitivity about acknowledging that child's feelings, allowing them to have them. You're not in charge of somebody's feelings. And this would be true, you're right, in any relationship, any healthy relationship. And then that doesn't mean that you don't curb behavior and contain things because it's our job to set those limits and have appropriate boundaries. And without that, kids aren't safe, people aren't safe, relationships aren't safe, workplaces not safe. Yeah. So I'm just thinking about just this extraordinary range of situations in which this idea applies.

8:47Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So on a small scale, you're allowed to be mad. You're not allowed to slam your door. Right. Is a simple example of this. Exactly. I guess on a higher stakes level, you know, you're allowed to feel disappointed and discouraged. You're not allowed to call your teacher names. Yeah. You're allowed to be bored. You're not allowed to skip school. I mean, literally every single thing you're saying down to when people are trying to figure out the rules for their household. I mean, it has to align with your values, of course. And that's where the personal decision comes in. What can you tolerate as a parent?

9:27Some people don't care about certain behaviors that other families care about, but it applies to everything. And think about your relationships in general. It's sort of a good check with yourself. Did I honor the feelings? Did I maintain and contain the behaviors? And are we still working on those things? Okay, so honoring the feelings, I think, is relatively straightforward. It's not always easy to do, right? But the practice itself is pretty simple to acknowledge, to validate feelings as opposed to judging them or shaming. How do we do that in practice? The thing that helps me is I think about the friends of mine who I will go to about any of my shameful feelings and how they respond and what is it about them that makes me keep coming to them when I'm going through something.

10:21And there is something in the way that people who are easy to talk to communicate. They don't even have to say anything. Like the all feelings are welcome can happen by just like making sure that your particular nervous system is so regulated that it's giving a clue and a cue to the other person that you're not thrown by their feelings. Because that also welcomes feelings without saying, because, you know, if you said to a teenager, all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. I don't know any teenager that's not going to be like, get out of my face. that's so annoying but you're still telling them by being able to handle what they're going through that that feeling is welcome so it doesn't always need to be with words i like that

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13:33What are examples, to get really concrete, what are examples of things that parents ought to say to make all feelings welcome? So concretely, I would avoid saying things like, if it were me, I would have felt grateful, you know, because you're just continuing to give messages of your belief that like how a person feels should be dictated by your belief system. Nobody wants to talk to that person about their deep stuff. And we want our kids to come to us. I would also say something like, I feel that way too. I get it. Especially with older kids, as they start to have kind of really hard stuff where you want to say, this is a nothing burger in your grand scheme of life.

14:17It feels better that you're not diminishing how big it feels for them in that moment. And on the flip side, the first time I had a bad breakup, like my first boyfriend breakup, I was so sad. And I told my mom and she cried. And I was like, well, this is not all feelings are welcome. Because clearly my feelings are too hard for her to experience. She welled up with tears and it was in the sweetest, most sensitive way. So it can come across in different ways. I would have preferred had she said, this is so hard. I'm here. Let's watch a bunch of sad movies. I'll make you a snack. First of all, very powerful, right?

14:58Because when you started describing it, my first reaction was, oh, wow, she's empathizing with you. She's crying for you. Right. But you're right. It signals that she was overwhelmed by your emotion as opposed to kind of sharing it and helping to support you through it. And this will not surprise you. This is something I really struggle with as a parent because I want to heal it. What I want to say is, you know what? I remember going through a hard breakup and I wasted days feeling like crap and it's just not worth it. And obviously that is not an empathetic response either. So can you help me not do that?

15:40I love that you said a few days of a bad breakup because I'm like, a few days? That feels very adaptive. I can understand that impulse, but I would probably say you'd be better if you want her to keep coming to you. You would be better off just putting your arm around her and giving her tissues and going for a walk. I mean, then you don't want to go so far that you're like stretching this out and weeks have gone by and she's sobbing and you're co-ruminating and then you're like bonding over the pain. but I think there's a space between where you just kind of give her the tissues, let her get through her stuff.

16:13Later, you might a few days or a few weeks later say, you know, I've been thinking about it. I just wanted to see what's happening for you. How's it going? And then if she's still sad or if you're getting some hints at feeling better, then you might offer that you do have some wisdom if she's up for it. Sage advice. On this subject, I'm thinking about another challenge that I think really speaks to the core of making all feelings welcome and all behaviors not, which is, I remember once one of our kids said to me, don't be mad. And of course, like, what's the result? I am not mad. But what I got back was like, you're yelling at me.

16:58And I was shocked because one of my first unacceptable behaviors as a parent, but also as a person is I don't yell ever. I said, you know, I might be a little animated, but the tone you're hearing is not anger. I'm frustrated. It was something silly like, you know, the ninth time I had said, okay, go upstairs and brush your teeth, please. Right. And just no change in behavior whatsoever. And at that point, you know, I tried to explain my frustration. And is that where I should have started? Like, how do you recommend handling a situation like that? First, I want to know why anger is not an okay thing for you to feel toward your kids when anger is a feeling that almost all parents have felt at some point toward their kids, even if it's not expressed with the screaming that you're talking about.

17:53I'm not an anger person, Alisa. You're just not an anger person. Mostly I would feel disappointed. I think what bothers me about anger is it's a self-centered emotion. right? It's about me. And rarely is your behavior about me. And I know that. And so what I want to feel and what I think I feel most of the time is I had an expectation of you and you didn't meet that. That may or may not have any bearing on me. And so I'm not going to be mad at you. Like, you screwed me. I'm just going to be like, yeah, you didn't do what I wanted you to do. And I'm kind of bummed about that. That is so regulated.

18:29It is magnificent. Thanks. No, it is. So that's the first thing because that models for your kids the nuance of all the different unpleasant and challenging feelings you can have that aren't at the level of anger. And so I think that's great. And there's research on this. But, like, you're not more likely to get the response you're looking for behaviorally asking more than two times, right, than you would at nine times. so after two times I feel like stop asking and just set the limit like what if they're not doing it what happens next that you're not going to be able to do when they're younger and then you also don't get as frustrated because you're like I didn't ask nine times I didn't set myself up to lose it because I said it once I gave them a reminder they know what's expected of them I will await their, you know, good decision making.

19:24And if they don't do it, the night goes on and the consequences will be whatever the sort of natural consequences are. This is so helpful. Sometimes I hesitate to do that because it feels like there's a fine line between a consequence and a threat. For sure. And I think that the consequence is just, if it's natural or logical, it's not a threat. It's just like the thing that you wanted to do, we are no longer going to have time to do. We don't get more time than that. And so it's just a bummer. And also we're on the same team. Like, I want you to get this done so we get to do all the things that we set out to do for the end of the night.

19:58But I don't think that's a threat. I think a threat is done with our lack of control. When we don't feel in control, we threaten because we just need to grab onto something. That's a really good point. The more important thing isn't to defend that you're not mad in that moment or you're not sad in that moment, but rather to say, I'm not in a great place right now, but you're safe, I'm safe. I just am not pleased with what's happening. And that's okay. I don't have to be. And it goes back to all feelings are welcome, but they need to learn the same thing, which is that they are welcome to us as well.

20:31Yeah. I think that's so important to model and easy to forget. Can you talk to me a little bit about how to enforce a boundary and maybe how that evolves by age? So I think when kids are younger, it's much more straightforward. It's like how to keep them physically safe. Those are the boundaries that you set. And make sure that other people are physically safe. You let them know what's okay and what's not okay. And ultimately, we know that kids feel more safe in a structured environment, like where the boundaries are super clear. And then as they get older, they want to know why. All of us want to know why there's a rule that it's not arbitrary.

21:08So I check myself with this, and this is what I recommend, is the rule aligned with your values or are you wasting a rule? Like, who cares? If you don't care, that means they're going to be able to convince you out of it. I'd rather you just not have it in the first place so your kids know, like, if you have a limit that you're not bending. I mean, of course, you can have conversations about it, but I know that phones in the bedroom after 9 p.m. aren't on the table. Like that's just not happening in my house. It's going to be annoying. It's going to cause problems. It's going to be like a source of tension, except that I'm never changing that rule.

21:53So it's going to be easier to set that, have a boundary that you aren't letting anybody cross. I think what gets hard is if you're not really sure of yourself and you're like, I think this is what I'm feeling about this. I don't know. And so your kids both can tell and also their right to question you. So I try to make sure I really care if I set a limit. And the other thing about boundaries is we just are in charge of them. Our kids can do whatever they want. They can cross them or not. It's our decision whether or not we stay true to what we had said. And I think that's also hard for people.

22:32Okay. There's a gray area here, which I think a lot of parents find tricky. And that is setting boundaries on expressions of emotion. Let's say, for example, you've got a teenager who's complaining all the time or who's acting out and you say, okay, we're going to set a boundary on how often you do that or how intensely you do that. And they're like, but I'm just expressing my feelings. Where do you draw the line between feelings and behavior there? Once it starts impacting other people, it's no longer just feelings. I think that's where you draw the line. And I know that there are certain things that kids can say that can make us panic.

23:13And one of them is I'm expressing my feelings. If you want me to tell you things, then you have to accept this. But I do think that we have to decide and kind of reflect on what are the things that get to me? Like, what is the sentence that my daughter could say that makes me think, wait, am I going too far? Or am I not far enough? Or can I do something about this? And the answer is, if it's in any way compromising your values, or it's impacting you, you have a right to say, I don't like how this is going. Yeah, I think that's such a clear differentiation. You can express whatever emotions you want until they're dragging other people down.

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24:58Elisa, from this conversation so far, it seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement. I am not a big fan, but I think it's wonderful for the pendulum to get wild so that it can find a place in the middle. And I think that's what the gentle parenting movement has accomplished. I think it's just done a disservice because it can be very permissive. Like, do you really want to hang out with those kids when they grow up? I don't know that you do. And so I think it's something to just be mindful of. But if it works for you and your family, go for it. My issue with the over sort of indulgence about feelings and intensity is that the very children that you are more likely to engage in this kind of parenting with have a differential susceptibility to permissiveness.

25:53And I know that some gentle parenting does have limits, some doesn't. Either way, it's not as good for that particular type of kid who are already going to have higher rates of anxiety and other internalizing tendencies from permissive parenting. And those are the kids that are getting it most. I do think that it's important that there are some kids for whom it's irrelevant, whether they have gentle parents or not. And there are some kids who are going to, they're going to do worse because of it. Yeah. A couple of reactions. First one is, I love your point that we shouldn't have parenting movements, or at least we shouldn't belong to them and subscribe to them like their ideologies.

26:33I don't want to overdo this, but I think a huge part of parenting is being like a mini scientist and you're running little experiments to find out what works for you, what works for each of your kids. And you find something that works for one and then it doesn't work for the next one. Doesn't work for the other. Exactly. Or it works on one issue and not for the next issue or at one life stage and not at a different phase. And if you're not consistently engaging in trial and error, you are not learning and improving as a parent. Hallelujah to all of that. It's totally true. And also, it's more interesting.

27:10Like it's so much more authentic and fun to develop relationships that way. Yeah. Although I don't know a lot of parents who are aiming for interesting as part of their relationship. I think a lot of parents would settle for calm and boring. I just spent the weekend with my older daughter and a bunch of her friends from college. And I was so delighted. Like I was just like, I love sitting back and just feeling delighted by young people. And if we're present and able to be in real authentic conversations with them, it's because we're not subscribing to something that we're, you know, convinced is one right way.