In short
Explains dopamine as the brain’s “wanting/craving” system (“do it again” button) and argues that screens and ultra-processed foods exploit it via endless loops, making kids struggle to stop and feel worse afterward. Presents “Dopamine Kids” as a science-based parenting plan to rewire children’s motivation by changing home routines, language, and food/activity availability rather than relying on willpower.
Guest background
Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff is a biologist and author of Dopamine Kids; she spent about six years studying the dopamine system to apply it to parenting.
Key claims
Dopamine drives desire; pleasure/satiation is separate. Screens/ultra-processed foods reduce stopping and satisfaction. Willpower-based limits fail; instead create “sanctuaries” where devices/trigger foods vanish. Replace with “Ride the Motivation” activities that match kids’ interests.
Notable examples
A mom redirects a Charlie Brown TV obsession into drawing with new pens/paper; a parent removes screens after dinner by hiding devices; a child learns baking after being offered cookie-baking instead of eating cookies. Mentions a “replacement activity” approach (Iceland study) and a 1940 self-regulation food study that doesn’t apply to ultra-processed foods.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Dopamine and Its Impact
0:45 to 2:57
An overview of dopamine, its true role in motivation, and how it affects behavior.
“all is and how the wrong information gets passed down about self-control and about how we're motivated and about what feels good and self-regulation.”
Signs of Healthy and Unhealthy Dopamine Hits
2:57 to 5:50
Identifying activities that provide healthy dopamine responses versus those that do not.
“So if people are thinking about this, like what are the early signs that something, a substance of some kind or an activity of some kind is giving that dopamine hit?”
Redirecting Children's Motivation
5:50 to 8:31
Strategies for parents to redirect children's desire for screens to healthier activities.
“So something that I didn't really appreciate until writing this book is that we can't want something and feel motivation and excitement for it until we experience it and we experience the pleasure of it.”
Language and Perception of Activities
8:31 to 11:23
The importance of how parents talk about activities and foods to shape children's preferences.
“the time they're spending on the screen because they have all this other stuff to do.”
Understanding Screens and Processed Foods
14:36 to 16:33
Explore how screens and ultra-processed foods impact dopamine in children.
“Well, just to put it in context, you chose screens and processed food as your like features of this conversation in the book.”
Outdated Parenting Advice
16:33 to 18:09
Discuss misconceptions in parenting based on outdated psychology.
“They've got training courses on these ideas and books galore, but somehow it hasn't really, the advice that works hasn't reached the parenting part of the industry yet.”
The Willpower Myth in Parenting
18:09 to 20:13
Learn why willpower is ineffective in managing children's screen time and food choices.
“So that there are times and places in their lives where the healthy option, the whole foods, the offline activities are really the only options.”
Creating Healthy Routines
20:13 to 22:31
Discover strategies to create environments that support healthy habits for kids.
“So how are we expecting like a 13 year old to get their homework done when they have the internet or their phone next to them?”
Positive Replacement Activities
22:31 to 24:45
Learn how to replace unhealthy habits with engaging activities for children.
“She baked all, she made a bread pudding for breakfast this morning.”
Building Joyful Environments
24:45 to 26:36
Understand how to foster joy and healthy engagement in children's lives.
“As parents, we, you know, I think it's a myth that like in the nineties and the eighties, parents just said, Oh, open the door, go play.”
Show all 18 chapters
Identifying At-Risk Children
26:36 to 28:00
Explore which children may be more susceptible to the impacts of screens and processed foods.
“Because some kids came out a little bit more inclined.”
Protecting Kids from Harsh Content
28:00 to 29:10
Learn how to shield children from harmful online and media content.
“Like, you know, like I know it would, I can't handle it now, you know?”
The Importance of Cooking
29:10 to 30:26
Understanding the role of cooking skills in healthy eating habits for kids.
“And so I personally had a lot of trauma in my, my childhood.”
Finding Joy in Cooking
30:26 to 31:15
Discover how sharing cooking tasks can enhance family bonds and skills.
“I love that you took like something that you kind of didn't want to do or you don't enjoy.”
The Myth of Self-Regulation in Kids
32:49 to 38:20
Debating the effectiveness of self-regulation strategies in children's diets.
“the best deals in their home department.”
Creating a Healthy Home Environment
38:20 to 41:10
Strategies for making home environments conducive to healthy eating.
“Oh, you know, you're going to have two cookies, three cookies, you know, how does, you know, what does that make you feel?”
Small Changes for Big Differences
41:10 to 42:00
Learn how small, manageable changes can lead to better habits.
“you know I it doesn't work yeah exactly exactly I was gonna close up with like something for parents who just feel like this is too much of an overhaul.”
The Power of Tiny Changes in Parenting
42:00 to 44:24
Learn how small, permanent changes can positively impact your child's habits.
“And again, behavioral psychology says this is, this is setting yourself up for failure.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Alison D. H. Morrow:The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
0:09Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:So there are two big challenges that really give dopamine hits, which makes you come back for more, screens and processed foods. and I'm speaking with biologist Michaeline Duclef about her new book, Dopamine Kids, a science-based plan to rewire your child's brain and take back your family in the age of screens and ultra processed foods. Those two things are really good examples of kind of how tempting it all is and how the wrong information gets passed down about self-control and about how we're motivated and about what feels good and self-regulation. So Michaelene's point is, let's just set up our home and routine so that you're not constantly depending on this false idea of willpower.
1:12I'm Dr.
1:13Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Elisa Pressman, and this is Raising Good Humans podcast. Michaelene, tell us what dopamine actually is and what it does and what maybe we might mistake it for.
1:26Alison D. H. Morrow:Yes. So dopamine is not what you think it is. And understanding what it is will make you a powerful parent. That's what I'm finding myself and also in other parents that I talk to. So we're told that dopamine equals pleasure, right? That the more dopamine we have, the happier we are. But neuroscience tells us something quite different. Neuroscience tells us that dopamine gives us the feeling of wanting, desire, craving. It's the do it again button in the brain. So it's, I want it again. I want it again. I want it again. And it pulls us to things like a magnet. And understanding that is really important because dopamine can pull us to activities and foods that actually make us feel bad or worse afterwards.
2:10Alison D. H. Morrow:They actually rob us of pleasure. So a good example of that is social media and teenagers. A lot of kids are on social media to feel a sense of belonging, right? Connection. But data are showing us that over time, these apps actually can make kids feel lonelier. So it's pulling them to the apps over and over again, but it's not actually giving them what they're looking for. The good news here is that the dopamine system in our brain is super flexible. And as parents, we can swap out the screen or the junk food and put in really anything that we want with the right setup. And that's what Dopamine Kids is about is like teaching parents how to retrain children's brains.
2:50Alison D. H. Morrow:So they like naturally want and reach for things that make them feel good and nourish them.
2:56Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Okay. So if people are thinking about this, like what are the early signs that something, a substance of some kind or an activity of some kind is giving that dopamine hit?
3:09Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah. So I mean, dopamine is not bad in itself, right? Like it's fantastic. And as a parent, we want our kids to be full of it, right? Because we want them to be motivated and interested in things. It makes, dopamine makes us go out and tackle challenges, take some risks, you know, stick to things. That's why kids want screens so much is because it's tapping into this, this really, this motivation system, right? This drive or fuel. So we want it, but we just want to direct it to the activities that actually help our kids and it actually bring joy to our kids and make our homes peaceful and happy, right?
3:46Alison D. H. Morrow:And so for me, after writing this book, I spent about six years studying the dopamine system and trying to figure out like, how can I use it for myself and my kid to make our lives better, right? Because that's really what it's there for. It's there, it evolved in our brain to make us seek out things that do make us feel good. So I think one of the first signs is how the kid feels afterwards, right? Like I always say to my daughter, Rosie, who's 10 now, I say, you deserve activities that make you feel just as good afterwards as you do while you're doing them or beforehand. And if the activity is making you feel cranky, angry, frustrated, kind of this endless desire for more and more and more, that's not a good feeling.
4:28Alison D. H. Morrow:That doesn't make anybody happy. And so I think that's the first sign is that the kid can't stop, right? Because the system is made to stop, right? it's made for you to go and want something. So that's the dopamine. It triggers desire. You get what you want and then you feel satisfied. You feel good. Then you feel the pleasure. And that's a different part of the brain than the dopamine system. That makes you stop, right? It's not what these screens and ultra processed foods are doing is they're running this system kind of endlessly in these loops and there's no stopping. And so for me, that's the first sign.
5:06Alison D. H. Morrow:Can the kids stop? And then the second sign is how do they feel afterwards? You know, do you feel exhausted, drained, kind of agitated, or do you feel relaxed, satisfied, fulfilled, maybe a little bit of a spring in your step? That activity is going to serve you and is running your dopamine system in a healthy way.
5:31Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:So, and you, I'm sure you hear this all the time, parents who say, like if you ask, what does get my child feeling pumped and excited and motivated? They'll say, the only thing are video games or the only thing are screens. So can you speak to sort of how to find and discover other ways to get that same sense? Yes. Yes.
5:57Alison D. H. Morrow:So something that I didn't really appreciate until writing this book is that we can't want something and feel motivation and excitement for it until we experience it and we experience the pleasure of it. So kids aren't going to want to go ride their bike outside if they've never enjoyed riding their bike outside. It takes time to build up these dopamine pathways of wanting and desire. And so I think the first thing we need to realize is that we got to get kids into something else, just a little bit, just redirect them into something else. In the book, I call this Ride the Motivation. So when you talk to kids, they tell you exactly what they spend their time doing because they talk about it, right?
6:37Alison D. H. Morrow:Kids actually wanna talk about and think about video games and TV shows just as much as they wanna watch them. If you pay attention, you'll see this. So in the book, I talk about how take all that excitement and desire and motivation and direct it to something you want them, a hobby you want them to cultivate. So in the book, I talk about this wonderful mom who's like a habit expert. And she talks, her boys are so, one of her boys is really into Charlie Brown. Like he wants to watch Charlie Brown all the time. I know, tough problem to have, right? But she really wants her boys to love art and to cultivate a habit of drawing and painting and enjoying and appreciating art.
7:21Alison D. H. Morrow:So what she does is she told him one day, she said, okay, it's time to stop watching Charlie Brown. The episode's over. I've got something really exciting for you to do next. So she's getting him excited. She says, this isn't a punishment. This isn't a like something you have, you know, you're burdened to do. She says, I bought, you know, a new set of pens. I've got this beautiful pad of paper. Can you draw me a picture of your favorite Charlie Brown character? And, and, and this is key when you're finished, will you present it to me and show me all about it? So what she's doing is She's taking all that dopamine, all that desire and motivation for Charlie Brown, and she's using it to seed this new habit and this new passion with her kid.
8:02Alison D. H. Morrow:And this is how she, I think she's been doing it for like years now. And he, one of the boys is like a really great artist and loves drawing. And she's creating basically in his brain, this new pathway of desire for something other than watching TV. Right. And so I think this is a beautiful way of handling these things because we're not fighting the kids' excitement and their interest. We're like piggyback on top of it. And then what can happen is you can slowly narrow down the time they're spending on the screen because they have all this other stuff to do. I mean, that is a really big mistake I think we're making is that we take away the screens and we don't replace it with anything.
8:42Alison D. H. Morrow:You know, we say, go do independent play, go into your room, go read a book, you know? And I think this is just setting up kids to feel really bad, but also to just want the screen more. And I think parents are going to fail at actually getting rid of the screen or narrowing, reducing the time kids are on it.
9:01Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:I think when we get panicked, our kids are using screens too much. We might be like, that's it. We're done with screens. Go read a book, go play outside. But it's like, but I haven't, if you haven't gotten the high of reading a book or playing outside, then you're going to associate the screens with the high and that as the punishment.
9:21Alison D. H. Morrow:Exactly. And, you know, and another thing that can happen, I think, is that we can talk about the offline act. We can kind of buy into our society and our kids excitement for the screens. And we can kind of talk about the offline activity as kind of inferior, right? Or a punishment. And And the screen is like the treat in life, you know, and the reward. And behavioral psychology is just telling us that all we're doing is pumping up kids' motivation for the screen more and demotivating them to read. And so I talk a lot about in Dippling Kids, like language is powerful, right? And how we talk about them and view these activities and foods really shape what kids think about them and the meaning they have to kids.
10:05Alison D. H. Morrow:And so in our home, we talk about how like reading is like our favorite activity and like the best thing in the world. And the screen is like this thing that we do sometimes, but you know, it has like downfalls, you know, it makes us want more, doesn't make us satisfied. It kind of numbs us, puts us in this trance. And so we lift up and celebrate what I value and what we want our child to like enjoy and love and build these dopamine pathways for. So I'm always talking about how fantastic it is to ride your bike with your friends, laugh with your friends, you know. So I challenge the listeners to think about like how they talk about online activities, offline activities, sweets, fatty junk foods versus whole foods.
10:52Alison D. H. Morrow:Like in our house, I say I'm like the hype woman for cucumbers and bok choy and salmon because I'm always talking about how wonderful they are and how good they make us feel and how they make your skin all glowing and all these things, you know? So I think that these foods and activities that, you know, are kind of what we want our kids to reach for naturally, they need their own marketing in a way, you know? And so it's like, I think maybe it's my job to be their publicist and their marketer.
11:22Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And now for a quick break, let me tell you about Little Spoon because Little Spoon has opportunities to help you figure out the best way to make feeding choices for your baby. So I wanna tell you that I don't understand why people would try to have an influence on your feeding journey, it's yours. If you're breastfeeding, I'm so thrilled and I so support you. And if you are formula feeding, I am so thrilled and I so support you. I just want you to feed your child in a healthy way. So if formula is part of your feeding journey right now, Little Spoons makes that choice feel less heavy. Their organic grass-fed whole milk infant formula is a complete nutrition recipe modeled after breast milk.
12:12Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And everything is openly shared on littlespoon.com from sourcing to ingredients to safety testing. Try Little Spoon Formula. They have a two-can trial pack you can get. Buy one, get one free. That's also something to just have in case something comes up and you need extra support. So if you're easing into the transition, you're not sure and you want something waiting for you just in case, whatever your feeding journey is, this is another opportunity for help. That's L-I-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N dot com slash try formula. Again, that's L-I-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N.com slash try formula. Okay, so A Seat at Every Table is a nationwide initiative from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, a nonprofit organization dedicated to improving health through food and nutrition.
13:07Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:It recognizes how often nutrition decisions show up in real life, at home, in the doctor's office, and around family tables. And there are credentialed experts, and those credentialed experts should be part of those moments. Most people aren't lacking nutrition advice. They're overwhelmed by it. One day carbs are the enemy, the next day seed oils, fasting supplements, or whatever is trending on your feed. Add AI tools and well-meaning friends to the mix, and it becomes hard to know what's actually grounded in science. That's where nutrition and dietetics professionals come in. They're trained.
13:45Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:They're credentialed. They're experts who help make sense of all that noise. Their role isn't to push trends or quick fixes. It's to bring evidence back to guidance and translate nutrition science into realistic meal ideas, grocery tips, and changes that you can actually maintain. Because we know nutrition isn't one size fits all. So whether you're trying to eat healthier, manage a condition, navigate medications, or simply feel less stressed around food, having personalized judgment-free support can make the difference. If you're in a phase of life where you're making nutrition decisions for yourself, your kids, and maybe even your parents, that's a lot.
14:25Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And support can be really helpful. Visit eatright.org slash every table to learn more and find a nutrition and dietetics professional. Okay. Well, just to put it in context, you chose screens and processed food as your like features of this conversation in the book. And so can you just talk a little bit about how those two kind of represent this challenge?
14:54Alison D. H. Morrow:Yes. So both screens and ultra processed foods tap into this powerful dopamine system, this drive, this motivation. So dopamine is really there to get us to seek out and get what we need to survive. And that means food, water, but it also for humans means social support, belonging, a sense of adventure, creativity. So both this online activities and the ultra processed foods are really tapping into this dopamine system. In fact, they're intentionally designed to crank up our wanting, right? So the first time really in history, our kids are surrounded by these products that are engineered for overuse.
15:38Alison D. H. Morrow:Both the food industry and the tech industry admit this. The tech industry is admitting it less and less. The food industry is still admitting it, that they've designed these products to get kids to eat more, scroll more, watch more, right? It's endless. And so So it's both of these products are tapping into this system. And I think what it means is that with these products, parents are in like an uncharted territory, right? We're parenting in this world that no other generation has faced before. And right now, I feel like we don't have really good advice and guidance around it. I think a lot of it is outdated.
16:16Alison D. H. Morrow:It's based on psychology and neuroscience from like 25, 30, 40 years ago. And so I really wrote dopamine kids to try to provide like an operating manual for this new kind of crazy era we're in and give advice that actually really does work with these products. Because if you look, actually the business industry, the business side of things, knows all these things that are in dopamine kids. They've got training courses on these ideas and books galore, but somehow it hasn't really, the advice that works hasn't reached the parenting part of the industry yet. And so that's what I'm hoping is to bring all this great knowledge we have for these products into parents' lives, into families.
17:00Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And so what do you think like the most common misconceptions are from like old science that are infiltrating our today way of managing?
17:10Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah. So I think one of the, there's two I'll go over. The first one is that we really, all of the advice and kind of the strategies we're given are based on really willpower, right? So willpower is trying to resist something that's kind of right in front of you or that you know is like in the other room, right? Your brain knows where it is. So we're trying to teach kids to resist their phone, resist the video game that's like in the living room while they're trying to do their homework or resist the package of cupcakes in the pantry, right? And what psychology in the last 15 years or so, 20 maybe, has really found is this just doesn't work.
17:48Alison D. H. Morrow:It just, it's not a long-term strategy. It doesn't work with these very engineered products. And we're just setting up parents for exhaustion, frustration, and ultimately failure. And so what actually works and what behavioral psychology tells us works is that we need to set up our routine and our home in a way so that children don't have to use willpower. So that there are times and places in their lives where the healthy option, the whole foods, the offline activities are really the only options. And I'm not saying always in every context. That is like never going to happen in our society. Right.
18:28Alison D. H. Morrow:But I'm saying you just need to create some spaces in their lives. I call them sanctuaries where it's the only option. So for instance, in our house, we have, we started off with like, I decided like, I was so tired of screens after dinner. I was so tired of pulling my kid off the screen after dinner and trying to get her to calm down, to go to bed. And so I was like, look, no more screens after dinner. And so I went around the house before dinner and I collected all the devices and I actually hid them in the dryer so that she like wouldn't find them at all. And like, I wouldn't be like tempted to go get them because why am I going to do that?
19:06Alison D. H. Morrow:And so I, and then I didn't leave her empty handed. I said, okay, I'm going to teach you to ride your bike by yourself. You can listen to an audio book. But what happened is very quickly, her brain realized that after dinner, screens aren't even available. They're not an option. They're not even in my environment. And so her brain starts to build a natural pathway and a desire for these other activities, right? She thinks our brains work in context. So she thinks after dinner in my house, what do I do? Oh, I listened to an audio book. I go outside and play with my friends. But the key here is that the devices or the foods have to completely vanish.
19:47Alison D. H. Morrow:If the child sees the device or the food, it's going to trigger dopamine, just the sight. That's when the dopamine hit occurs. It's going to trigger desire and you're going to start to struggle.
19:59Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And that's when you're like asking the kids to count on willpower, which we can't even count on. Exactly. Exactly.
20:06Alison D. H. Morrow:And that's a really good point. Like adults can't use willpower against these things. Like I can't, you know. Me neither. Yeah. So how are we expecting like a 13 year old to get their homework done when they have the internet or their phone next to them? Right. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a myth that this can happen. Right. But there are easier ways. Like this, the second big, big mistake is that the way we're setting up limits. Right. Like we kind of are, have this idea that a limit is basically just taking something away, you know, saying no. but if actually if you look at like habits science and behavioral psychology this just doesn't work either you know because you we are we are creatures of habit we are creatures of like okay i'm in this situation i do x right and so what actually works is instead of seeing limits as these like rules or punishments see them as opportunities to add something to a child's life add something fun and engaging, right?
21:07Alison D. H. Morrow:So swap in the online activity for an offline activity, kind of what we've been talking about. And the key here is to find an activity or food that the kid has a chance of liking, right? Like maybe they won't like be excited about it right away, but there's some element to it that's exciting and fun and interesting for them, right? So you kind of have to know your kid a little bit. So for instance, with my daughter, I think she was about eight, we were in the grocery store and she loves cookies, brownies, she's very food driven. And she's like, Oh mama, can I have a box of cookies? You know, she sees the cookies in the grocery store.
21:45Alison D. H. Morrow:She wants them. That's the dopamine. Can I have cookies, please? Just a box of cookies. You know, Janet always gets cookies. And so instead of saying no and setting a limit, which would be totally reasonable, but what works better is I said to her, okay, Rosie, you can have cookies, but you're going to get to go home and bake the cookies all by yourself. So she had never done that before. So, but I was going to teach her. So now I'm, I'm not saying you can't have cookies. I'm not saying no. I'm saying, look, this is going to be better. Right. Then eating, just eating a box of cookies, right? You're going to get to learn to use the mixer and the oven and, and you're going to get to do something purposeful, right?
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22:25Alison D. H. Morrow:You're going to be able to learn to bake. And so now she's 10 and she's like an amazing baker. She baked lasagna for dinner. She baked all, she made a bread pudding for breakfast this morning. So now it's like, I'm not just getting, her brain isn't just receiving the reward of a cookie. It's receiving the reward of learning, of creating something, of being purposeful in our home. Being purposeful is very dopantinergic, but pleasurable for people and kids. And so, yeah, so I think we need to swap out limits as this like, no, right? This like hard no. And instead think of them as like, not this, but this, you know, how about this?
23:05Alison D. H. Morrow:And then the new habit actually sticks, right? Because you're not just saying no and kids aren't just complying, but they're, they're discovering something better.
23:15Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:This is reminding me of a really cool study that was done in Iceland. And I'm going to forget the details, but the gist of the study was that it was actually about managing substance misuse in adolescence. And so they did this basically assignment of a replacement activity that could be just as risk-taking, but positive risk-taking that could ignite the interest. And they found that some kids, there were some substances that maybe aligned more with the natural high of doing art. And for other kids, it would be the natural high of mountain climbing. And for other kids, it would be the natural high of baking.
24:00Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:And they found huge reductions. There were other things included like universal curfews and getting the whole community involved. But what I thought was so cool about it was that the reason it was so effective was there was this replacement of a natural high for this other very appealing, unhealthy high.
24:21Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I love, I love that because, you know, what we're understanding, what psychologists are understanding is that kids are so drawn to activities online because they're trying to fulfill some need they have, right? Social support, adventure, exploration. And so if we just take away the online activity, they're still not going to fulfill that need. Right. Right. As parents, we, you know, I think it's a myth that like in the nineties and the eighties, parents just said, Oh, open the door, go play. Right. But because I mean, maybe they did that, but they had also built up through the years, a whole world out there for the child, right?
25:01Alison D. H. Morrow:Like other kids playing like activities. Like my, my, my husband would build tree houses and bike ramps and, you know, Right?
25:12Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:We fantasize a little bit about how it naturally happens.
25:17Alison D. H. Morrow:Right. But the parents did some work to set that up, right? And some cultivation, whether it was just the other parents in the neighborhood sending their kids out too, right? Like there was, so there is this like myth that like, kids are really good at handling boredom and stuff. And that the data show are not true. Like boredom can make you be a little more creative or go reach out for connection. but most of the time it just kind of makes you feel bad, you know? And so I think, I think parents, if we just do a little bit of upfront work to set up some of these, what you're talking about, like natural highs.
25:51Alison D. H. Morrow:And for a little kid, a natural high can mean just like going across the street to the neighbor's house, you know, that's exciting. That's risky. Or using the oven, using the stove, you know, something with a real knife. Exactly. Using a hammer and a nail, you know, or biking yourself to school, right? Teaching a kid to do that, like is gonna do so much more for their mental health than just taking a screen away, right? So, and then your life, also the kid's life gets better, right? Like it's filled with joy. Like that's really what this book is about is like, this is about creating a more joyful, happy, pleasurable home.
26:31Alison D. H. Morrow:This is not about taking away pleasure and depriving kids. That doesn't work.
26:36Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:so one of the things that I think about is like who are the kids that sort of the kids who are at most at risk for getting the reward system with screens and processed foods just to use your examples like who are the kids that are at higher risk and what is the work that parents have to do to better support them? Because some kids came out a little bit more inclined. Like these systems were all built for us to want them. But there are some kids where it feels like a harder kind of hill to climb. Yes.
27:15Alison D. H. Morrow:You know, I think that's such a good question. And I think that we don't know all the answers to that, you know, but the data support it, right? That this doesn't affect every kid equally. And some of it is just genetics. Like I know families where like one kid really struggles, right? And some kids struggle with food more versus video games versus, right. And so it's kind of, you know, I think you have to look at, at your own kid. And then I think you have to protect them from that. Right. So my kid is like really sensitive, like me to like comparisons and, you know, criticisms and social, she's 10 and social media would crush her.
27:58Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:I mean, I just, right.
28:00Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah. Because it would have crushed me. Like, you know, like I know it would, I can't handle it now, you know? And so I just feel like the video games, I don't think are such a big deal for her. Right. And, and so I feel like it's really my job to protect her from that aspect of it. I think kids that, that are really sensitive to, you know, the content on it is, is it hard on some kids, you know, like it, the content can be harsh. the news, the way women are treated. Like this, this stuff is not easy for a lot of people, but for some kids, I think it's just could really hurt them mentally. And so I also see it as like protecting her from content and not just like online, not online.
28:42Alison D. H. Morrow:And there's things you can do with like with your router, like you can program your router to block sites. And of course it's not a hundred percent, but it's something, right? I think the other thing that we're learning is that children who have a lot of stress in their childhoods, you know, that maybe have had trauma that like kind of supercharges the dopamine system, which makes sense because it's there for survival. Right. And if you've had trauma, then, you know, you've, you've been threat, you're, you feel threats. Right. And so I personally had a lot of trauma in my, my childhood. And so I, I feel that I'm more vulnerable to social media and these tricks that these apps do.
29:23Alison D. H. Morrow:And so I try to protect myself. But you're absolutely right that it's not the same. And, you know, there's kind of this idea out there that eating whole foods and mentally processed foods is really expensive. Right. And then this is something for only middle, upper class. But I think this is a myth. I think that, I think any home can, can have predominantly whole and minimally processed foods. I think the key though is like, you got to cook it, right? But one of the ways of protecting kids from ultra processed foods is teaching them to love to cook.
29:58Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Yeah. Teaching them the joy of it. I'm making this case only because I am the worst cook ever. And it's such a, what I'll say is that some of our kids are actually enjoying cooking probably because somebody had to do it, but others definitely are, you know, my, I think cooking and driving are kind of my two worst skills. And, you know.
30:27Alison D. H. Morrow:But I love that. I love that you took like something that you kind of didn't want to do or you don't enjoy. Yes. Yes. And you get, I mean, right. I mean, that's, that's, that's a beautiful thing. Right. And, and I was actually thinking that if, if you don't want to cook yourself, like I don't really like to bake. I don't know. Right.
30:46Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:But now you have a baker.
30:47Alison D. H. Morrow:That's right. Exactly. And you know,
30:50Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:and then they're making real contributions to the household. Like you're not just entertaining her. She's the only way you're getting fresh baked goods.
30:58Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah, that's right. And, and then she feels special too. Right. Like your kid probably feels special. Like, oh, my mom gets to love it when they can do something their parents can't do. Right. Gives them. Yeah. So I think that's a really good point.
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34:13Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair. Every style, every home. So one of the things that you talk about that I just want to address is I'm just picturing, and again, I can see this with screens and foods, but I'm picturing people who say like, well I just you know leave all the treats out in plain sight and they can monitor their own intake and that's how they self-regulate right or I you know I know some schools even have said we really want our kids to learn self-regulation so we're not being you know we're not going to keep phones out of the the school day and I'm like huh I'm sure that does work for some kids You know, so people do their kind of like, well, when I was growing up, I was able to have all these things and then I didn't want them as much.
35:10Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Right. But I think that, well, I'm going to let you address this because I think it's an important and really big misunderstanding.
35:18Alison D. H. Morrow:Yes. And I'm glad you brought it up. I think it is one of the huge kind of myths out there right now about parenting. and it sounds fantastic, right? It sounds like amazing that like you could just, kids will learn to regulate and you don't have to do anything. But I think data and research shows that it doesn't work. And there's a couple, there's a couple, and of course it varies between, like I said before, like with some kids and food, it's going to be fine, right?
35:49Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Just by using that example is sort of only going to work if it works, if it happened to have worked in that case.
35:56Alison D. H. Morrow:Right. But I have a feeling with the internet and modern technologies, it's going to not work with the vast majority of kids. Eventually, something will tap into that reward center and pull them in. And there are a couple of reasons. So like I said before, these products are intentionally designed to create these endless loops of wanting. I want another, I want another, I want another. This wasn't around, you know, even 30 years ago, 20 years ago, right? So a lot of these theories were based on more natural activities and products, right? So there's a very famous study from the 40s, I think it is, looking at kids regulating their food intake.
36:43Alison D. H. Morrow:And it's very, it's beautiful. The kids regulate beautifully. They eat a balanced diet. And this is where this idea comes from, actually. that study had no ultra processed foods in it. So that was a big difference. That's a big difference. Exactly. Because kids don't binge on whole foods. Right. You know, and there's very good data right now that show that ultra processed foods trick our brain into overeating. And depending on the person, different amounts, but quite a bit. Eat when you're not, they trick us to eat when we're not hungry. They trick us to not feel or satiety or satiation signals, right?
37:24Alison D. H. Morrow:And so we can't take that 1940 study and apply it to 2026's food environment. Offerings, right? Yes. The other big difference is just the availability of these things, right? And so we don't keep ultra processed foods in our house. I feel at my age, I cannot handle them. I cannot handle them. And I feel better without them. And I have a better time if we just don't have them in our house. And people are like, oh, but how will your kid learn to regulate? And I'm like, she eats ultra processed food almost every day because it's just everywhere outside our home. Yes. And so like one psychologist told me recently, like, you don't have to teach your kid to resist temptation in your home because they're going to learn it everywhere else, school, friends' houses, church events.
38:16Alison D. H. Morrow:I mean, she's learning to regulate her ultra-processed food intake. And that's when we talk about it. Oh, you know, you're going to have two cookies, three cookies, you know, how does, you know, what does that make you feel? And, you know, we get those conversations in. It's just that when she's not having to resist all the time, right? Her brain can relax and get the healthy food in. When we have the ultra-processed food in our house, she also kind of snacks all day, you know, like crackers and pretzels and granola bars, and then she doesn't eat dinner. And it was a big change when we started removing it.
38:50Alison D. H. Morrow:She was like, all of a sudden, she wasn't a picky eater anymore. And I think that the food was just kind of filling her up and kind of, and I think her brain kind of knew, like, I don't need to eat these vegetables. Yeah, because I can just go into the pantry and get a granola bar after dinner, you know? So I would say, yeah, go ahead. No, no, no. I was just going to say, I think that strategy is making one's life really hard. And I think it's making it hard for the kids. I grew up with that strategy with my mom. We had candy, candy bars, chocolate all over the house. And I wish I didn't. Because it just created habits.
39:38Alison D. H. Morrow:It's habits that I took into my adulthood.
39:41Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Exactly. And your daughter having things out of the house and associating those things with outside of the house makes her habit inside the house, a totally different ballgame. And I think nothing is, if there's low dose and short duration of access to these things, just nothing feels as harmful.
40:02Alison D. H. Morrow:Right. Because like, okay, let's say she has these snacks at every soccer game, which is true. every soccer game. Like when I was a kid, we got oranges after soccer game. Now it's like a granola bar, chocolate, you know, chips, like, right. So this bag, right. So her brain, she, she, she's aware of this. She talks about it. She's like, my brain knows that bag's coming. Like the bag is coming. And like, you know, and so her brain learns that like, okay, soccer means these really high calorie dense foods. But then her brain also knows that every night and every day in our home, she's eating the fruit, the vegetables, the wild rice, the salmon, right?
40:43Alison D. H. Morrow:And so our brains are really good at learning context, right? And in particular context, it triggers particular desires and cravings. And Domain Kids is about setting up your home. So in that context, your kids want the Whole Foods. They want the offline activities and you don't have to force them, right or pull them off the other so it's really like kind of like a lazy parents guide to the modern world because I'm horrible at policing and I just don't want to do it you know I it doesn't work yeah exactly exactly I was gonna close up with like something for parents who just feel like this is too much of an overhaul.
41:34Alison D. H. Morrow:Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. I mean, that's a very good question. And I think we haven't really hit on it. And again, it's, it's a myth out there, right? To like make these massive transformations, like 30 days without screens. I know many parents that do this. And then at the end, I asked one of the moms recently, how did you feel? She said, I felt like a failure. Oh, I know. I know. After New Year's. Right. Exactly. Because it doesn't work that. And again, behavioral psychology says this is, this is setting yourself up for failure. And then what you're doing when you feel that way is you don't want to try again, right?
42:09Alison D. H. Morrow:Because it doesn't feel good. Right. And so instead what works, and there's a whole field on this is starting tiny, right? Really tiny changes that are permanent, right? So tiny, they feel kind of stupid and boring. I'll give you an example of one of the scientists at Google, deep mind, some fancy neuroscientist told me once he was like, this is how stupid it needs to be. How silly, how small. He said, when I want to start working out again, all I do for the first week is drive to the gym, walk inside and walk back out. And he said, what he's doing is he's training his brain to like, one, he's successful.
42:47Alison D. H. Morrow:He accomplished his goal. and he feels good feeling yes exactly and then he's training his brain to like just do start right and just do it and so this is what parent this is what you have to do just pick something you want to kind of change in your life with your kids lives and then make a tiny tiny goal so like I want my kid oh I think a great place to start is the car right like on the weekends we're not going to take the screen in the car or on the train, right? Like just start one day, Saturdays, we're not going to do this, right? And then replace it with a book, coloring, puzzles, whatever you think, you know, ask your kid what they want.
43:27Alison D. H. Morrow:And then you'll see, whoa, my kid actually likes reading or my kid actually likes doing the puzzle. And, you know, after a couple of weeks, you expand it out to two days, right? And, or you keep it for a month, you know? So you start really, really small, but you're never going back. The screen is never coming back in the car on Saturdays, right? It's permanent. And so this is how you actually change your habits and rewire your brain to start thinking. The kid will start thinking, oh, the car is where I read. The car is where I do the puzzles, where I crochet, whatever it is. And then what's beautiful about that strategy is eventually the kid will think, oh, when I'm bored, I read.
44:06Alison D. H. Morrow:Or when I'm bored, I crochet, right? because the car or the commute is really boring. So start small, but make it permanent and pick something that you can really knock out of the park and feel really good about it. And it will show you that, wow, my kid actually enjoys, really enjoys these other activities and wants to do them. They just need a little exposure and experience.
44:27Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff:Awesome. Thank you so much. I think this feels doable and important enough that people can take a step, a small step. Thank you.
From the publisher
In today’s episode, I sit down with Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff to unpack what dopamine actually is—and how understanding it can completely shift the way we approach screens, food, and motivation in our kids’ lives. We talk about why dopamine isn’t about pleasure but about desire, and how that “do it again” loop can pull kids toward things that don’t actually make them feel good in the long run. We discuss practical, doable ways to redirect that drive—by replacing, not restricting—so kids naturally want the activities that support their well-being. We also explore why willpower isn’t the answer, how small environmental changes can make a big difference, and how starting tiny can help create lasting habits for a calmer, more connected home.
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