How to Disagree With Your Kids Without Fighting

24:40Dr. Aliza Pressman:to participate in activities where they're getting multiple perspectives and supposed to do this? Because it does require so much work. And I'm thinking of a developing brain, like I'm probably less confident in how right I am at this age than I was 30 years ago. So what's the incentive? Because it's pretty cool if you have that incentive. Yeah. So that's, I think that's another great question. Um, or like, it's a great observation that I think a lot of people don't recognize, you know, there's sort of all, all this talk about like, well, you know, young people don't do this and young people don't do that.

25:20And, you know, our colleges are, you know, not fostering constructive dialogue. Right. And I'm sort of like take any given adult and say, you know, would you like to talk about, you know, genocide or trans rights or abortion with your colleagues at work? 99 % of them would be like, hell no. Right. And so like, why are we expecting our kids to jump in with both feet and enthusiasm into these extremely difficult topics amongst their peers. So I think in order to create, in order to foster those environments where this happens, we need to recognize that it's hard, that there are huge social disincentives, and figure out how to make it easier, right?

26:15Like it's never going to be easy, but we need to make it easier. And so I think we need to tie it to people's professional aspirations. Right. So, for example, at the Kennedy School where we're developing policy leaders, we say to them outright, look, if you're going to, you know, discuss and sort of create policy for your country, you have to be able to have this conversation. right uh we have very similar conversations for example you know at the medical school at the school of you know at the business school at the law school it's like it is part of your job to have these difficult conversations and so we're here to try to kind of prepare you and scaffold you um but i think when you're talking about high school kids or you know early college kids.

26:59That's a big ask. So it's a big ask and yet it feels like they want to do it.

27:10Dr. Aliza Pressman:It feels like they do have an interest in doing it. And then confusingly, in some ways it, it connects kids like the way that they're thinking. If there's a larger group that's thinking that way, maybe they do want to be in conversation and have disagreements, but it's very hard to imagine how they're doing it and like, who's in charge of teaching that? So is that on the parents? What would you say we can do in the household? Like all the kind of important kid skills, I think we have to do it like in multiple layers, right? So Harvard College, which is our undergrads, we just launched a program that's going to be, that is required now for all incoming freshmen based on my work, where they have to learn, you know, some very concrete behavioral skills about constructive disagreement before they ever set foot on campus.

28:17and then we're going to sort of reinforce it with in-person practice once they get here. Because like you said, they have a curiosity and they have a motivation. And, you know, often the reason kids go to college is because they want to meet people who are different than them and have different opinions and sort of like expand those horizons. So we're doing that based on the recognition that there's both a motivation and a fear. And so let's make it easier by upskilling them and by creating opportunities. My lab is working on a course that would be very similar, but designed for high schoolers, right?

28:58So the language is different. The examples are different, sort of like the look and feel of it is really designed for, you know, kids that grew up on like, you know, TikTok and Instagram and, you know, whatever, right? So it's like all very fast, very kind of colorful, you know, all the, you know, full of memes that I personally don't understand. But, but, you know, and, and a lot of the examples are examples of disagreements that you can't avoid in your real life, right? So it's disagreements with your parents and with your coaches and like your, you know, project group for, you know, science class.

29:34And so the idea is that if we teach them to apply these skills in daily disagreements, they will be more prepared when somebody brings up some like massive, you know,

29:47Dr. Aliza Pressman:policy thing. But I think, you know, I think the parents have a huge responsibility. And to me, what's interesting, and you know, I don't sort of study kids. So this is just my experience as a parent. I think we have to start really early. You know, I think we have to start with like the little itty bitty ones kind of modeling how you ask questions and how you give them choices and how you inquire about their, you know, their preferences so that by the time they're teenagers, they have that default of like, oh, you know, if I talk to mom, there's some chance that, you know, there's some chance we'll have a sensible conversation because we've done this a thousand times before.

30:35Right.

30:36Dr. Aliza Pressman:And what about, because when kids are younger, one thing that's not great is if you're having an argument and you say to your partner, let's take this in the other room because nobody sees the arc of the argument and then the conclusion and that everybody's okay. So it can be, it can be confusing, especially for younger children. Is there a way to argue better or disagree better in front of your kids? Yeah, I absolutely think that constructive disagreement is something we should model, right? So, you know, I think you can argue in front of your kids. You shouldn't fight in front of your kids. That's a great distinction.

31:24Right? I think I think that it's different, right? When somebody says, you know, well, I don't think that, you know, Joya, my oldest daughter is named Joya. You know, I don't think that Joya should go to her friend's house until she has cleaned her room. Right. And the other parent might say, well, you know, I don't know that I agree with that because she's had a really busy school week and all her friends are getting together. And I think it's okay that she goes and has a good time and then she'll, you know, come back and clean her room, you know, on Saturday or whatever, you know, and the first parent might say, well, how, how do you think that sort of, you know, jives with our agreements about how we're going to talk about responsibility and take it more seriously and, you know, not leave empty pizza boxes in our bedrooms.

32:22Right. And so you can like, Like you can have the conversation and demonstrate curiosity and disagreement and have your kids sort of absorb all of this.

32:34Dr. Aliza Pressman:Which is quite different than screaming at each other and calling each other names. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Which we generally try to avoid like even when the kids are not a factor. Right. That's a bigger problem. That's a bigger problem. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. And so over time, so rather than avoid having those disagreements in front of young people, have them. But how do you like distinguish how do people choose when to, you know, it's like, how do you pick your battles? If you're, you want to have appropriate disagreements and productive, constructive disagreements, but are there times that you also want to say, do, does that feel necessary right now?

33:22For parents, I think we do like biting our tongue within life in general, even if it's just to take a beat is great until it's not,

33:37Dr. Aliza Pressman:until it's just there's an avoidance of any disagreements whatsoever. ever. So I guess I'm wondering kind of what do we know about disagreements and is there a point at which somebody is more focused on disagreeing than connecting and, and, or is it a longing for connection? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, that's a great way of thinking about it. I think constructive disagreement can really help with connection, right? Because we all have these things in our heads that we're afraid to express because we know that they might not be well-received because the other person thinks differently, right?

34:19And when that other person really sort of hears you out and seems curious and thoughtful and, you know, like they care, it really feels like a weight is lifted and you do feel closer to that person. So thinking of disagreement as a path towards connection, I think is really wonderful. You know, your question of sort of like, when is it like, when is enough enough? You know, when my kids were really little, there's always that moment that like all of us have had, right? Where like, you're standing on the side of a busy street, and you're telling your, you know, five year old to like, hold your hand.

34:59And like, I'm a big girl, I don't need to hold your hand. Yes. And you're like, we can have this conversation, but not right now. Like right now you hold my hand. Yeah.

35:12Dr. Aliza Pressman:We'll get into the why later. That's right. That's right. And so I've always told my kids that like, when it comes to safety, you know, my word is law, but I'm happy to discuss it and debate it and whatever later. Right. Like when this, like when the safety thing has passed. Right. And so, so that's sort of one, guideline that I always think about. And then, you know, the other piece in terms of how much time do we devote to these things and how hard do you work to, you know, be constructive about everything. The reason it's a tricky question is because you don't know what's going to happen depending which path you take, right?

35:54So I've had many experiences in the course of, you know, we've had this conversation five times and I said no and I mean no and that's it right and like by the grace of God at that moment the child just sort of says oh okay and like life moves on right and I'm like whoo right and then there's other times where you say no and it just blows up and then like you know an hour later you know somebody is crying sometimes both of us are crying. Like it's just, and you just, you just know that you dug yourself into this and suspect that, you know, 10 minutes of better listening could have prevented the whole thing.

36:44And so the problem is you just don't know what your odds of success are. Whereas, you know, the whole, the whole kind of constructive bit of it and they're, you know, listening and the curiosity is always slower. It's always more effortful. And I think on average, it's more effective.

37:05Dr. Aliza Pressman:What about when you are talking with someone about a disagreement? And so you're in the position of you can make the choice of violently agreeing with them because you're being a supportive friend or because you just do, or is there any growth or benefit in sort of doing some of the workload of what that disagreement could look like because you don't have the same skin in the game and you're sort of like, let's, let's think about this. What might the other person's perspective be? But I guess that goes back to your earlier point where perspective is not super effective? I think that's really good and also hard work to do.

37:56And you kind of have to think about, I think you have to be careful about the timing of it, right? Kind of the timing and is that other person sort of like ready to receive that perspective, right? So I had a conversation a few days ago. My oldest daughter had, you know, they're like, there's a big group chat of all of her friends and, you know, all these conversations happen on, you know, WhatsApp. And one of the boys said something that all of the girls found extremely offensive. And they're all very, very good friends. You know, this kid is like really, the boy who said the offensive thing is really sort of dear, dear friend of my daughter's.

38:46But she is really angry and all the girls in the group are angry and they're going on and on and on about how could he not get it. And we've explained it to him and we've clarified it to him and we've told him and why doesn't he get it? And why doesn't he admit that he is wrong? and I'm listening to it and I'm thinking, well, maybe he's wrong but I don't think he's as wrong as you guys claim and his reluctance to admit that he is wrong to me suggests that the thing he says really matters to him

39:23Dr. Aliza Pressman:and there's sort of like something there that you all don't understand because you're too busy yelling at him and trying to convince him that he is wrong. Right. And so part of me wants to say this, but part of me is looking at my kid who seems really upset. Right. And so like, is my job at the moment to like enlighten her or is my job in the moment just to support her? And I think you have to like, you have to kind of read the room, which can be, you know, quite tricky. I like the distinction and also the choice that we all have of do a, is this a moment to enlighten or support? Right, right, right, right.

39:58Dr. Aliza Pressman:And in general, Okay, so my last question is sort of maybe this one is just a larger cultural question, which is people on social media or at dinner tables or walking around have both aligned and sort of been divided by what feels like very clear political views. Mm-hmm. And you hear people all the time saying, we're so polarized now, everything's so divisive, we're so extreme. Except that generally, when I'm in conversation with people, they're not at all like that. So is there something easier about sort of being right and disagreeing unproductively when you're more distant? Is there anything to knowing people personally to being able to have better conversations?

41:02Yeah, there's a great phrase that I heard from Katie Couric, but I don't know if she is quoting somebody and who that is. But the phrase is, it's hard to hate up close. Oh, yeah. Right. In what you brought up, there's a bunch of things that is, I think, really worth unpacking. One is that we're not nearly as polarized as we believe we are, right? So there's all kinds of research on this phenomenon of what they call false polarization or something they refer to as the perception gap, which is, you know, basically if you ask a bunch of Democrats and a bunch of Republicans what their actual views are, right, and then you ask them to guess the other side's views, people tend to wildly overestimate the extremity of the other side.

41:48And the thing we underestimate is how complicated and nuanced the other side's views are, right? So we kind of think that like, you know, every Republican believes, you know, typical Republican things on all the issues, and every Democrat believes typical Democrat things on all the issues. And it turns out all of us have this like hodgepodge of policy views in our heads. And so when you talk to a human, they're not merely the caricature that we imagine them to be. In person, that comes out more, right? In conversation, you get the complexity a lot more. and of course, you know, social media and, you know, traditional media, right?

42:35Like their job is making money. The job is how do I get clicks? And so a lot of what is presented to us is the most inflammatory, the most extreme, the most like, you know, enraging content because that gets people to click.

42:56Dr. Aliza Pressman:It's so funny because there's something that shuts me down so quickly and it's other people's certainty about that. And what I find on social media is the way, the certainty with which people speak is also incredibly judgmental sounding. And so what happens is I probably agree with that person half the time, but I'm so turned off by the approach of their certainty that I'm like, I'm going to go look at the other perspective because this is so offensive to me, just like as humans. Right, right, right. And I don't know what that's about because sometimes the certainty is like about something that I could not argue with.

43:43Dr. Aliza Pressman:Sometimes the certainty is about things like this one is the exception. Like this is the most certain thing about life that we know. And if you don't see that, you are not a person or whatever. And I don't know what mechanism is at play. But even when I would have agreed with someone, I'm like, this is not the approach for me.

44:19Dr. Aliza Pressman:people have used BetterHelp globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why so many people continue to choose BetterHelp. You can check it out yourself at betterhelp.com slash reviews to see amazing customer reviews in real time. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5. Based on over 1.7 million client reviews, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. They also hold required education, training, and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started.

44:57Dr. Aliza Pressman:You just answer a few questions, get matched with a therapist, and switch therapists if the person that you found isn't the right fit for you. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com slash humans. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash humans. I want to tell you about something that has earned a permanent spot in my bathroom, One Skin. I have a bottle in my bathroom because this is the stuff that I use daily. It is not one of those skincare products that makes big promises that doesn't deliver One Skin. It's different. They tested the best-selling anti-aging products out there, and they found that they weren't really touching the root cause.

45:41Dr. Aliza Pressman:They tested over 900 novel peptides and landed on the proprietary peptide OS1, which is now the foundation of everything they make. My favorite is the OS1 face topical. It's got my skin tone looking more even, and I feel like I'm not so dry like I live in California. It is not fun for the skin. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15 % off using the code RGH at oneskin.co slash RGH. Just so you know, that's 15 %offoneskin.co with the code RGH. After you purchase, they're going to ask you, where did you hear about this? And please support the show and tell them Raising Good Humans sent you.

46:28Dr. Aliza Pressman:Let's go back to the two parts of the conversation, and that will address perhaps what I'm getting at. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, what you're talking about is how can people speak when they're actually trying to deliver their own beliefs, right? So we talked about like expressing curiosity when you're trying to elicit the other person's beliefs, but at some point you have your own beliefs and you want to say them out loud. And so how do you like not set the whole conversation on fire at that part? In our research, one of the things that we have found a lot of evidence for is the effectiveness of something I call the HEAR framework, H-E-A-R, like I hear you.

47:13And so the H in here stands for hedging. It's words like sometimes, maybe, perhaps, you know, some people. It's a way of making yourself sound less certain. And what's really interesting about it is that most of the things that we sort of believe, we don't know with absolute certainty. So when we're hedging, we're actually being more accurate, right? So like I could say, look, COVID vaccines are safe and effective, right? It's like a very sort of dogmatic, certain slightly judgy statement. or I could say, look, most physicians tend to believe that COVID vaccines are largely safe and effective.

47:59Right. And so there's like three hedges in there, you know, most tend to largely, but it's a truer statement. Yes. The thing that's absolutely crazy making about hedging is that when I teach it, people say, well, aren't you just telling women to be more uncertain? oh wow and i'm like no i am telling what i'm actually women are women do more hedging uh and this i think is a good thing i'm hoping that men will hedge more and really everybody should hedge more because i think it gets you away from making these like very dogmatic claims that really turn off your conversation counterpart i think what's extra

48:42Dr. Aliza Pressman:hard about that because I completely agree with you, obviously. And that's why talking about research in general is so hard because if people are looking for certainty, that's not very, it's not going to be as easy to do with science. Right, right, right, right, right. And also people who speak with certainty get more clicks or more listening, like they're more effective sometimes, unless, I guess, unless the audience is me where that bothers me. So I think it's really interesting because, and I really appreciate that you've been told, well, you're trying to, aren't you just trying to make women do that more or teaching that?

49:25Dr. Aliza Pressman:But actually this is up there with lists of things that women do that men could really benefit from. I will say that I've been told many times that I hedge too much and that it undermines what I'm saying or it makes it harder to know if what I'm saying is something with authority. So it's a very confusing message because if you're in a disagreement, it certainly opens the door to I'm curious and I haven't said that I've got 100 % certainty. but it also could indicate that I guess you're in a weaker position of belief systems or something. Yeah. So I think there's two things to consider there. I think hedging and certainty are fascinating.

50:16One is, you know, what is the conversation you're in? Quite often we get the same kind of like blanket advice for every conversation, right? Like women should be more confident. When? Why? So I think, you know, like if I'm presenting, you know, if I'm presenting data, if I'm pitching to a client, if I'm giving a keynote, I'm in front of a friendly audience that's there to listen to me and is like willing to take it in, right? So I can afford to be much more direct in my claims. If I'm in an escalating conflict, my goal is different and my audience is in a very different place. So hedging in disagreement is, I think, much more useful, right?

51:10Than if you are presenting, you know, a project plan and you're saying, well, maybe, possibly we could get this done by six months from now, right?

51:20Dr. Aliza Pressman:Yeah. I think that's one thing And the other thing I always sort of, you know, tell people do this thought experiment. If you ask me, Julia, how many children do you have? I should very quickly and clearly say three. Right? Like if I said anything like, well, I think I possibly have three, you should worry. But if you say, Julia, how many inches of snow is going to fall in Boston next year? I should not say 32, right? Because that's an uncertain quantity. And so to demonstrate my understanding and my competence, I should say that my confidence interval around the snow in Boston is somewhere between 24 and 42 inches.

52:14So depending on what the thing is, you have more or less claim to certainty. Great. Okay. So we did hedge.

52:27Dr. Aliza Pressman:Yes. What's the EAR of here? Okay. So the E stands for emphasizing agreement. And the idea is that Like no matter how much we disagree, we agree on something. We agree on some common values. We agree on some common concerns. We might just agree about the fact that this is an important topic and we need to sit down and talk about it. So it's phrases like, I agree with part of what you're saying, or I am also concerned with, or I would also like to, right? So it's just taking like a few seconds to put us on the same side of the table so that we are now a little bit more in like joint problem solving mode.

53:12And I've shown you that I'm not just in a battle with you. I'm really sort of trying. The A is the one that I think folks are the most familiar with. It's acknowledgement, right? Acknowledging the other perspective. And I think the main problem with acknowledgement as normally executed is that people can be a little lazy about it. So it's like, I hear you, but here's why you can't. Like it's a token. Yes, yes. And it's like, pat me on the head for hearing you, except for I haven't proven to you that I've heard you. Right? So real acknowledgement should sort of restate the other person's point so that you have proven with your words that you were listening.

54:03And then the R stands for reframing to the positive. So it's avoiding things like no, can't, won't, don't, terrible, hate, kill. right uh and replacing it with more positively valenced words like uh it would be so wonderful if or i really appreciated when or thank you for right so thank you for sharing that point of view right and it's a you know people sometimes i think struggle with reframing especially in conflict because it feels like it feels a little bit like too happy, huggy, like we're just going to replace everything with rainbows and sunshine. But we tend to mimic each other's tone. And so when you offer a more positive, constructive tone, it just has huge power to bring your counterpart to that same place, right?

55:05You're sort of like shaping their behavior by modeling what you want to see. So instead of, you know, instead of sounding weak, it's actually giving you control over how the conversation is going to go. I mean, that here is so great for

55:23Dr. Aliza Pressman:conversations with kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like print it out, tape it to your wall, tape it to your fridge. So helpful. I'm just like, I can envision those components making the disagreements go so much better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. It seems to work very well for people. Thank you for joining me for this conversation. Please stick around and subscribe to this channel for more episodes and practical content that you can learn from and use in your parenting in real time. Watch the next video here or sign up for my Substack newsletter at dralizapressman.substack.com.

56:06Dr. Aliza Pressman:And consider becoming a paid subscriber for access to me live each month in our subscriber Q &A.