How to Help Your Child Make Friends (and Be a Good One)

0:00We are living in a world where we're so attuned to feelings that make us think inward so much of the time. And I think it makes the anxiety worse at times. And so how can we help them move outward and think about being a good friend?

0:17Aliza Pressman:Today's conversation is about friendships. There's so many expectations about friendships, whether you're starting kindergarten or whether you're in middle school. I have David Thomas and Sissy Goff, who are so awesome. They have a private practice in Nashville. They have a huge podcast, Raising Boys and Girls. They have a great book out, New York Times bestseller, Capable. And I just love that. And they have the most practical tools for navigating friendships, understanding what being a good friend is. That was a big part of the conversation because we so focus on like finding friends to be good friends to us.

0:55Aliza Pressman:But how can we be good friends? And sometimes that makes all the other stuff fall into place a little bit more. So I'm really excited about it. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman, developmental psychologist, New York Times bestselling author, associate clinical professor at the Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast. I am so glad you're here. The title of your book, Capable, says it all. We are in this place right now, I think a lot of parents, of wanting so much to have capable kids, but also wanting to do everything to maybe over-prepare them for this time period. So let's, thinking about capable as a framework, can we talk about this transition to school, sort of the developmental transition so we can talk about the littles and the bigger ones?

1:53Aliza Pressman:Tell me. Tell me everything. Well, you know everything. It's so fun to talk to you. But we, yes, are just hearing so much. I mean, from littles to, I was talking to a college student this weekend who said, I'm so nervous about starting back. And it's so easy for us to think because it's their 12th first day, they're not going to be nervous anymore, but they are still nervous. And what you know, too, transitions temporarily create more emotional reactivity in the brain because it's processing so much new information. And so they genuinely are having the big feelings. And when we try to dismiss them in those, we're not helping them.

2:35And so we talk so much. We were just talking this morning about nervous is normal as one of our favorite statements. And to say that with kids and then, Aliza, I feel like on all the things we just are always thinking the same way. So aligned. That we're helping understand those emotions and move them toward capability in the midst of them, that it's both things.

2:55Aliza Pressman:You just said things so casually. 12 first days, that's 12 practices. That's not very much. Yeah. Over the course of 12. Like, I've never thought about that. It's a really good point. Thinking about just making friends, just starting with that, whether it's your first first day, your 12th first day, how do you like to talk to young people and their parents? Because for some, they're going into kindergarten. This is a big deal. This is a new school. This is a new building. What are the worries that you see? And how can we help prepare them while not making it something where they feel like I'm not capable of doing this on my own?

3:39You know, I think it really starts with our reminding ourselves as the grownups in the room, like, how am I working through whatever big emotions I'm experiencing so that the hope would be we talk a lot about how anxiety is contagious, but so is calm. And that if I'm doing the work I need to do, I have more calm to bring to the equation and less spillover of intensity, worry, concern, all the things. So I think that's the beginning point. And then I would say a second what I hope could be helpful thought for parents to consider is we love flipping the word fail on its head. We talk about fail as an acronym for first attempt in learning.

4:20And so what if, to your great question about making friends, we were to see every interaction is nothing more than that, a first attempt in learning. So the conversation might be clumsy and clunky, and that sounds exactly right. So there's not this expectation of we would talk and 10 minutes later, we'd be best friends or we would have had a thoughtful conversation in our very first interaction. So I think it starts with us thinking about our posture and then thinking about the expectation, which I think invites kids into a more realistic transition as we think about the academic space, the relational space, all the layers.

4:59Aliza Pressman:It does seem to be that the expectation about friendship is I'm going to make my best friend. We're going to be besties forever. And things change. And things change year to year. But I love the idea of starting off with a reframe that it's first attempt at learning. And you're just, not just, it's a, you know, I could still use that for me today. But it does lower the stakes. And so what are some ways that we can help lower those stakes to just get in there with fail? I think being so practical is helpful with kids. And, you know, in the book, we have 100 capability building exercises for kids of all ages.

5:43And so thinking with them, and I wonder if you've had the same experience. When I talk with kids about starting school and I will ask the question, hey, I know lunch and recess are the two hardest times of the day. do you ever sit next to someone and think I don't know what to ask them and every time I've ever said that to a kid they've said yes you know which makes me think if I've only asked 30 kids that over the years probably 90 percent of them don't know what to ask and so we love to arm kids we call them back pocket questions let's talk about questions they can ask based on their age as they're starting these relationships and remembering that it takes a long time, that it's slow growth on friendships, what are some practical ways like that that we can help them be prepared?

6:30I have two little nephews that I get to spend a lot of time with, and my oldest went to kindergarten a couple years ago. And we spent so much time the night before school just practicing him saying, my name's Henry. Do you want to play with me? You know, just, I mean, we all know role play makes such a difference. And so I think even building down those kind of, breaking down those building blocks can help them remember, oh yeah, this is slow and I've got to practice and it's going to be clunky and awkward along the way. But at least if I practice, I feel like it's a little predictable.

7:01Aliza Pressman:That's great. So what are some other kind of little lines that we can practice? My name is Henry. Will you play with me? Will you play with me? Now, of course, Henry's young, so it's easier to say, even though it's still challenging. As they get older, maybe there's something else. Tell us some of the prompts we can give. You know, it's interesting. In my work with a lot of boys and adolescent males over the years, I think about this time of year and how often schools are hosting a dance or a homecoming sometimes in September or October. So there's this short runway once I walk in the building that I, for a lot of boys, I need to make an ask.

7:43And so I've loved having adolescent boys just type two to three questions in their phone so that when they hit those awkward, stilted moments in the conversation, lead with how was your summer, what's been the hardest part of the start of school, so that they feel armed with some questions that are going to move through the complicated parts of early conversations or just the freezing up that I think so often happens when adolescents are having interactions with the opposite. sex. Or grown-ups. Or grown-ups, yes. Any of us. Well, and within that, we talk so much with parents about just remembering the importance of narrating your experience in the everyday that reminds kids we're still humans.

8:27We're still fumbling the ball. We still have awkward conversations. I had a really hilarious interaction with a mom not long ago who she said to me, David, I have had more empathy for my kids lately because I had a lot of friends who had taken up tennis, some of whom played back in the day when they were in high school, and some who had played a good bit along the way. And I never played, but I thought I want to enjoy the sport with them. So I took up the sport, took some lessons, and she said, it turns out I'm terrible. And she said the group instructor was giving feedback to me in front of all the other folks, and I found myself getting teary.

9:05She's like, I'm a woman in my 40s. Like, I'm not going to Wimbledon. Like, but it was this great moment of me being able to narrate my experience with my kids to say, it does feel overwhelming when a coach or a teacher gives you some feedback and others are present. Or the instructor at one point said, okay, let's team up and play some doubles. And she said, everyone around me started moving toward another person like no one chose me. And it was that reminder of our kids are going to have those kind of moments all throughout the school year that she brought into just the everyday conversation at the dinner table, which I think gives kids permission to just be human.

9:44Aliza Pressman:Oh, I can. I so remember never. I was always chosen last in soccer or in any sport, but soccer was what everybody did at recess. And I was like, oh, my God, it's so humiliating. Yes. Yes. But parents, look at where she is now and all of the amazing things that she's doing. So there's a lot of hope and you can remind your kids of that too. Actually, it's true. We don't need to panic to go back to what you were saying in the beginning if they're getting chosen last for soccer. I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. But getting chosen last today could send people into a tailspin. Yes. Instead of just like, you know, yeah, I get chosen last for things still as an adult.

10:32Aliza Pressman:I mean, if anybody were to play tennis with me and go off in pairs, I would be like. So I think that narrating our own experiences a little bit, especially with younger kids and then teenagers who are curious and interested is so helpful and normalizing that this is awkward stuff. I mean, just thinking about how hard it is to start a conversation, even when you're writing down those three questions, I'm like, that is, it takes a lot for some people. I mean, like I am more introverted. So the idea of having to strike up the conversation is like, ah, sounds so stressful. And it looks so seamless for some kids.

11:21Aliza Pressman:It just, it's easier for them. What are some of the traits that you see where there's a little bit more ease for some of the kids? They're probably not coming in. But where there's some ease for some of the kids that are sitting with you have observed where they're just like, everybody likes so-and-so, why? That's such an interesting question. And we haven't gotten to talk. Sometime we're going to talk about all of our collective work environments, but one of the things we do in our practice is we have a little summer retreat program for the kids who are in counseling. And we take different groups, and I'm the director of this retreat program.

11:57So I just have spent eight weeks living with second through twelfth grade. Actually, I live next door, which is much more

12:02Aliza Pressman:enjoyable. But it's so interesting to watch them. And we all would know this, but to watch the different ages. And our youngest are second and third graders. And they mostly, unless they have a little bit of anxiety, jump in with each other. And then we get up into the fifth and sixth age group, fifth and sixth grades, and then through middle school, early high school. But the self-conscious looking around that lasts three of the seven days, you know. And I think as we're thinking about the kids who have those qualities, we've got to think about that all middle schoolers are going to struggle in that way.

12:41And to some degree, if they don't, I'm a little concerned.

12:44Aliza Pressman:Like even if it looks from the outside, like they've got this, they've got the questions, they're right. They're like coming right in with compliments and hugs and whatever. Yes. Yes. That's still something's hard, hard inside. Yes. They're feeling unsure of themselves. Yes, absolutely. And I think I really do. I mean, the social anxiety seems so much more significant than it's ever been. So, I mean, I feel like if we have a child who has more resilience, I think they probably lean toward more resilience and have had a lot more practice. We need to be thinking about how can we give all kids more opportunity to practice?

13:23Because I would say those are the two of the most common threads. But I think we could assume most kids feel unsure because in the same time, I would lean that way.

13:37Aliza Pressman:I want to tell you about something that has earned a permanent spot in my bathroom, One Skin. I have a bottle in my bathroom because this is the stuff that I use daily. It is not one of those skincare products that makes big promises that doesn't deliver One Skin. It's different. They tested the best-selling anti-aging products out there, and they found that they weren't really touching the root cause. They tested over 900 novel peptides and landed on the proprietary peptide OS1, which is now the foundation of everything they make. My favorite is the OS1 face topical. It's got my skin tone looking more even, and I feel like I'm not so dry like I live in California.

14:17Aliza Pressman:It's not fun for the skin. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15 % off using the code RGH at oneskin.co slash RGH. Just so you know, that's 15 %offoneskin.co with the code RGH. After you purchase, they're going to ask you, where did you hear about this? And please support the show and tell them Raising Good Humans sent you. Can we talk about the snack drawer standoff for a second? Because in a lot of houses, once kids hit a certain age, snack time stops being simple. And it stops being very much in your control. So what worked for little ones does not fly with teens who suddenly have opinions about everything and totally different schedules.

14:59Aliza Pressman:And half the time you're reading the pantry, too, because parenting older kids is a totally different thing. That's actually why Kodiak Chewy Bars have become an any age, any person snack. In our house, that person includes me. The s'mores and chocolate chip flavors have seven grams of protein per serving, and they're made with whole grains and real ingredients. So it's not just something that kids can grab. It's something anybody can grab. They travel well, and that matters. If you are between backpacks or gym bags or sports or rehearsals or car consoles, these are for you. Grab a Kodiak Chewy Bar at kodiakcakes.com or your local grocery store.

15:35Aliza Pressman:They're the ones with the bear on the box.

15:41Aliza Pressman:And so over time, what are the challenges that you see? I think middle school is just its own. Anybody who has kids going into middle school, you're not imagining it. No. It's so hard. Yes. It's so hard. I do think people talk about being afraid of older teenagers, and I'm like, no. That middle school is really hard, and it starts quite early in some places. Yes. Different ages, but like in New York, it's fifth grade. Gosh. Other places, it's sixth grade or seventh grade. It depends. But it's not that the ages change, but the new building changes and the new expectations change. So when we sort of talked about the beginning of school for getting a kindergartner to play with you, what can a middle schooler sort of have at the ready?

16:43Aliza Pressman:including a lower expectation. Yes. And you know, I did at CEU a long time ago about friendships and particularly for girls. And one of the things they talked about that I thought was so interesting is that girls place best friend expectations on acquaintances, which feels so true. Why didn't she text me that I wasn't at school today? Well, because you don't even know her that well. So let's talk about acquaintance expectations, best friend expectations. I think things like that can be so helpful. I jumped in on you. No, not at all. I was thinking the first important place to start, as I'm thinking about parents who are worried about middle schoolers, is that wise reminder of what you're pointing out.

17:26There's a reason that entire movies have been made about the middle school years. Like there's a movie called Eighth Grade. And if we don't lean far enough into that reminder, we found that a lot of parents can step into the trap of making some long-term determinations about their kids based on short-term observations. And I've long challenged parents of middle school age boys, we're not going to make any long-term decisions about who he'll be as an adult man right now.

17:56Aliza Pressman:Not the time. Not at all. No, it's a good reminder. It is because, you know, most every developmental theorist would agree that 13 to 15 is defined as the worst episode of a boy's life. Like there's not another exactly point in development that's as plagued by as much biological change, as much emotional intensity, as much relational complexity. So let's just begin by giving a lot of room for the clumsiness of development in that space so that however it's playing out, I would go a step further in saying I think with boys in terms of their social development, a lot of what I see happen is this intuitive out of, I think, you know, so many boys, young men being competitive creatures by nature.

18:42they bring that into the relational space. So they relate with friends by one upping and dominating. They don't have a sense of this, what it looks like to collaborate because competing is what's intuitive. And so, you know, the ability to listen, the ability to just like cheer on another person, the ability to let the story be about them and not about me. If you say, hey, I made the winning touchdown, I don't need to one up that in some way, but that feels necessary in that space that I love that you commented, I don't see happen with juniors and seniors in high school. Like they've reached a different point in development where the interaction can look so different because they're not trapped in that complicated space.

19:24Aliza Pressman:Now, let's say you're driving these middle schoolers and they're in these conversations and you have access, I guess there are two parts, two scenarios that I hear about a lot. You're driving and you hear, but you don't want to say anything because you're so excited that you can just overhear interactions. You don't want to ruin it. And maybe they'll even forget that you're paying attention. But then after you have this opportunity to say something to your child potentially that could help them if they are having a sticky time, how would you toggle between involving yourself and giving them some light tools and also just trusting that this is like you know it's going to work itself out well as we're thinking about the car so I have kind of an interesting family story family origin I was an only child till I was 16 and then my parents got pregnant with a little girl I know evidently my first response to my parents when they told me was, I didn't know y 'all still did that anymore.

20:35Of course, by the way. What is more horrifying? Totally. But my mom had a lot of wisdom with a second child at 43. She was wise to a lot of things. And she, one of her best tricks was that when she was in the car, she would use the fader button to turn the stereo louder in the backseat so that the kids would have to talk extra loud so she could hear more of what they were talking about. Isn't that a great tip?

21:00Aliza Pressman:Yes, it is. I didn't even know that existed. I know. I know. Yes. Brilliant. Yes. And we love talking with parents about empathy and questions, just that basic formula of empathy and questions. And so if we were to overhear an uncomfortable conversation, a place where a child we love was stuck or even said something unkind or someone said something unkind to them to then, and my other favorite word when it comes to adolescence is breezy, to try and be really breezy about things in our approach. And so to say, hey, tell me how you felt about that conversation. There were some points I thought it might have been a little bit hard for you.

21:46And let them say first, and then we get to offer some empathy of, yeah, it made me sad too, or I might have felt uncomfortable too. And then that we try to start with asking them questions to connect the dots rather than them, us connecting for them, because I think it's so easy to lean into lecturing first. But what do you think you would have done differently? Or what do you wish you could have said in that moment? Or what do you want to say next time? And if they can't get there, I think it can always be helpful to say, I have some thoughts if you want to hear them. Or I was thinking a few things.

22:21Let me know if you feel like it'd be helpful and see if they'll reach out to us. And then if it feels like you just can't help yourself and you really need to offer it to them, then to think about it in a breezy kind of way or to think about it. We talk so much about with adolescents that conversations shoulder to shoulder are so much better. Going for a walk, taking the dog, you know, anything like that where it's not the eyeball to eyeball can feel so threatening and like they're in trouble immediately. And so that breeziness. I want you to imitate breezy, like with your voice. Breezy with my voice.

22:57I think we have to think about lowering our shoulders as a part of it. And hey, I'm so glad I got to be around your friends. Just curious how you felt about that conversation, where it's more curiosity. We just are so intense when we want to know something. And I think for kids that as intensity translates, it becomes anxiety and it sets them off in a more anxious loop.

23:22Aliza Pressman:So I learned something about what I do terribly with my kids this weekend, which I never noticed. But they pointed out charmingly. Which is I have a sort of a chat with my two daughters. And then I have one with my daughters and my stepdaughter, my stepson. And then I have one with everybody. And on the daughter's chat, my daughters were like, there are times when there are just three dots and we see and it's like, oh, my monologue, like what is coming now? And I am thinking I'm like breezy, just like, hey, few things. Like, I'm not even saying it. I'm just texting it. And what they see are these dots that they're dreading because they're like, something's coming.

24:21Aliza Pressman:And it's so annoying. And I was like, wait, what? I thought I was being so cool. And they're like, no, because we see dots. We see those dot, dot, dots. and they last forever. Now, sometimes I don't, I didn't know this. I could start something and then close my phone, forget about it, which I do all the time. And it, I guess, stays in the dot, dot, dot thing where you're like about to text. So that happens too sometimes. So part of it is just my text etiquette is off unbeknownst to me until now. But I thought it was interesting that they pointed out. So I'm like, I had no idea that even in text that the same not breezy vibe of lecturing can happen if they just see dot, dot, dot.