Picky Eating, Sleep Training & Potty Training: Parenting Myths Debunked w/ Professor Emily Oster

27:06And so that's okay. If your goal, if you're planning to make chicken nuggets all the time, which is completely fine, then it's fine to have that response. If your goal is not to do that every time, then you sort of need to think about how you're not going to do that. Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. Life as a parent is nonstop and meals provide an extra added challenge because it's just constant. And that's why I'm excited about Nurture Life. They've made serving healthy meals way easier and more enjoyable. So Nurture Life is a meal delivery service that makes nutritious meals and snacks your kids actually want to eat while giving parents the support they need.

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30:22Use the code goodhumans15 at checkout for 15 % off your first order, your first purchase. That's shopflavcity.com. Use the code goodhumans15 for 15 % off your first order exclusively for Raising Good Humans listeners. I'm thinking on the other side of it, if people are worried that their toddler, well, no, they wouldn't be probably. I'm trying to think of like what other vegetables. The main, like, it's like vegetables. How do you get your kid to eat vegetables? Kids don't like vegetables. Here are some things. There actually is like a fair amount of good data about how to get kids to eat vegetables.

30:58One is that, you know, when they're very little, they need to try them multiple times. So a lot of kids don't like vegetables the first time and the kind of the third time they get into it. For older kids, we have some good evidence on vegetable dip pairings that you can get kids to eat more vegetables if there's dip. So they do these experiments where they like offer kids, you know, who don't like vegetables with dip versus vegetables without, and like the kids like the vegetable. Of course you like, I mean, of course they like vegetables with dip. Everybody likes vegetables with dip, but it's a way to kind of like work into those flavors and then, you know, to kind of get used to the flavors.

31:36We know that a lot of people's flavor tastes are formed in childhood. And so it's like a sort of opportune time, not in a high pressure way. Like if your kid doesn't like peppers as a kid, they'll never like them. But this is, their taste buds are very malleable. Okay. And what about people who are hiding their vegetables? Yeah. I mean, look, we don't have a lot of data on the vegetable hiding. I will say that, you know, the thing that you're looking to develop in some of these, like, you know, people develop tastes when they're kids are a taste for the product. So a taste, like you're looking to develop kids to like the taste of broccoli because it's delicious.

32:17And that is not developed by putting broccoli in a bread that doesn't taste like a brownie. But yeah. Or brownie. Right. Or in a brownie. Which your goal is taste development. Think about that. Yeah. Yeah. And if the goal is, and again, just sort of go back to me and be like, well, the goal is to get them these nutrients. Well, they're getting the nutrients. It's okay. They're getting the nutrients. You know, they're not, again, they don't have scurvy. And so I think that's a little bit of the, it's not wrong with eating, putting broccoli in the brownie, but it's probably not necessary. Now, this is less toddlery and more baby, but it just feels like so important to hear.

32:59And then we'll go back to toddlers. And I guess this does impact all the buildup, but I feel like you're going to know what I'm going to say. But can you address sleep training, the different kinds, different research that we have, the different data just to... Just do it. Okay. So sleep training very generically refers to basically any system in which you're going to have your, they sort of leave the baby alone or with a parent there for some period of time to cry and to fall asleep on their own. That's like, and the thing people are most familiar with is this kind of like put them down in the crib, close the door and leave.

33:40There is the like, put them down in the crib, close the door, leave, come back at some intervals. there's a few different versions of this. A lot of people will hear that sleep training causes attachment issues for your kids. That is not supported in the data. If you look at, you know, randomized trial data on sleep training, you see that, you know, it improves sleep on average, and it tends to improve parental mental health fairly significantly. And it doesn't cause any short or long-term negative consequences in kids. And so, I mean, I tell people that and then say, you know, sleep training might not be for you.

34:17Like not everybody wants to sleep train their kid. And I do think that some parents feel like their pediatricians in particular will tell them like, you have to sleep train, you have to sleep train, your kid will never sleep. Like that's not for every, like it's not for every parent. But if it is something that seems like it would be for you, then you should feel comfortable doing it. As an extension, let's say you're co-sleeping in some way on purpose, like not, or I guess it could just be that you have a little friendly visitor at four o 'clock in the morning. Can you address two parts to that?

34:55One would be what we know about whether outcomes for kids who sleep in their parents' bed versus not are different in terms of autonomy, support, or I don't know, whatever outcomes you want to talk about. Should someone who's decided to sleep in their bed with their kid panic about it, or if they're coming into their bed beyond the decision that they might want to make for themselves personally, like, is it harmful or not to the children? Was that a question? Yeah. That was a question. Yeah. I mean, so we talk a lot about like sort of co-sleeping being dangerous. And that is all about like the very beginning.

35:38And so now we sort of fast forward to like, your kid's a toddler. You know, they're even like over sort of six months. The risks of co-sleeping are more or less zero in terms of physical risks. And so then we might think like, is there some psychological issue? And no, there are many cultures in which people co-sleep for years and years and years. and many families in which people co-sleep and families in which they don't co-sleep. And if co-sleeping is a thing that works for your family, then it is a thing that people should feel totally comfortable doing. That phrase, if it is something that works for your family, I think is actually the pretty important phrase.

36:16So I think there are some parents who will say like, this is just really great. Like I love, I have a friend who co-slips with her six-year-old and she's like, I love it. It's so great. It's like our best time of the day. It's really important to me. you know, my kid's getting enough sleep. I'm getting enough sleep. We're so happy with it. Like, that's fantastic. That's great. There are people who say, you know, my kid comes into my bed and I hate it and I'm not sleeping and they're not sleeping. And like, this is really not working for us, but how do we get out of this? And I think that that's, then there's a question of like, how do you get, how do you get out of it?

36:47And do you have to go sleep? And you don't have to go sleep. And so, and that is, this actually probably, I don't know, I'm curious if you had this, I would say the one of the most challenging things people have is top is like toddler sleep. And how do I change whatever terrible pattern I'm in with toddler sleep, whether it's they're sleeping in my bed and I don't want them to bedtime, six, six hours, you know, they're not like whatever it is. I think toddler sleep is really, really tough. And yeah, toddler sleep is really tough. Toddler sleep is really tough. And probably if somebody is worried about toddler behavior, it's probably I want to find out why I was sleep yeah yeah toddler sleep is really tough and sleep is always really important and I think part of what's hard about this is it's not that we don't have methods to fix it we do they are just incredibly intensive and yeah yeah and and like they just require a level of sort of commitment to fixing the problem that sometimes we don't have accessible to us in the moment, right?

37:52You said to me the most important thing, like I've put two weeks out in my calendar and I'm going to fix this problem. Like for most kids, you'll be able to fix the problem. Like you explain the bedtime routine, you implement the bedtime routine, you put them back in their room every time they come out. Somebody sleeps on the floor outside their room so they can put them back in their bed. And kids form habits quickly. Like you can fix this, but it is really important to recognize it's not something you can fix in five minutes and it's not something you can fix without the kind of agreement of everybody in the household and like really having a plan.

38:28So it feels to me like a place that's really hard because people are looking like you're so tired when you're dealing with the sleep stuff, you're so tired, you're so frustrated. The idea of like, I need to take two weeks off from my life to fix this problem is insurmountable. in a lot of those moments. Oh, I think so many people just aren't, they're too tired and it's never happening and they'll deal with it maybe two years later or three years later. But that isn't because it's not okay to do that with your toddler. It's just because you might not be okay for you. Yeah, and I think it's good.

39:07I think that recognition is almost like we under-recognize our capacity constraints, right? to sort of say like, I've landed in this place and I don't like it. Sometimes it's valuable to be like, this isn't really working for me, but right now I'm not really in a position to fix it in the way that I want. And I know where I want to get. I know where we're going to want to get. And we're going to think about that. And we're going to like, think about when is the time we can get there. And for now we're going to live in this place and just recognize it's not quite where we want to be, but you know, it's, it's okay.

39:36And that's a hard recognition. But I think Like sometimes if you get there, then you at least can feel like, okay, I'm not pretending this is exactly where I want to be. I'm just recognizing the capacity that I have to fix it right now. And I think broadly remembering, like, will that impact your child's development? Yes. And I think that's where I would always tell people, like, take that off the table. Like, it's fine. Your kid's sleeping in your bed. They're eating only nuggets for dinner, you know, with two packets of ketchup. They're like doing like all, like, it's fine. You know, the house is messy.

40:08There's toys everywhere. It's all, it's totally great. You know, your kid does need to get enough sleep, but like most of these things, like anything is great. It's affecting your experience, which is important, but also is something that you can sort of see, everything's great for my kid. I want this to be different and I'm gonna wait until I have the capacity to like fix it in a way that is, you know, is gonna feel right for me. That's such a valuable reminder for everybody because I think that's where everybody gets so tied in knots and feels so crappy that it really has nothing to do with.

40:46If you really zoom out and you're like, what really matters to me is this big picture. Am I raising this child to have whatever values that I'm going for in my particular household and general physical and mental health? These things are not going to have an impact on that other than your capacity. And so when you can deal with it, if you want to deal with it, there are ways, but it's not like, it's about your day to day. Now it's not about what is going to happen 20 years from now in terms of who they are. I think that is exactly what I was well said, exactly what I was trying to say. I want to think of like two more that are just like very concrete.

41:28I got another one for you. Okay. Okay. Myth. You can potty train your kid in three days. Okay, great. You cannot potty train your kid in three days. Potty training, which has gotten, kids have gotten way older over time. So, you know, in the, when I was a kid, kids were potty trained at two. Now kids are potty trained basically at three or a little bit after. And it takes typically, you know, if your kid is three, it'll be faster on average than if they're, you know, 18 months or two years, but it typically takes a few weeks to kind of get all the way from like the beginning to like when your kid is, is finished potty training.

42:09They often take longer to poop in the potty. Kids are afraid of pooping in the potty. I think it's like, they're afraid of their poop coming out. Like it's like their arm falling out. It was like losing an appendage or something. So I just think people should, people need to, people would benefit from, from changing their expectations about that particular experience because you sort of get this idea like, oh, I'm going to like, it's a long weekend. And I'm sure I'm guilty of this too. Like it's a long weekend, potty train your kid. It's like, you could start, but like. You could start and maybe it'll go well and you get further than you would with a boy really is what I'll say.

42:46If it's a girl, you might get further. Yeah, if it's a girl, you might get a longer time. And that's not because your kid's broken. Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. It's this perfect time of year where Quince sweaters are happening. The layering is back. It's getting a little cooler and cooler days call for layers that last. And also as it gets even cooler, then everybody turns the heat on. Then you have to take off your sweater. Anyway, point is you got to get sweaters from Quince because they're so high quality. They are so soft and cozy. They look refined, but they are legitimately such a fraction of the cost of other cashmere sweaters in particular.

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46:18Intrinsic motivation. You know? Yeah. Or if you... Yeah, we can do that because we didn't address rewards before. Yeah, totally. So let's do that. And I think there's probably, like with all things, there's just a lot more nuance than is out there. But I feel like rewards is one of those things where it's gotten something has been lost in translation. I think that what has gotten lost in translation on rewards is this question of sort of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And the idea that, you know, when we are hoping our kids will eventually, you know, try to achieve excellence in whatever they're doing, that like ultimately to do those things, you do have to be like intrinsically motivated, right?

47:02The world is not exclusively full of extrinsic motivation. And so we are somehow worried that if we give kids rewards for something that they will never be intrinsically motivated to do anything, but even very, very concretely to say like, you know, if I give my kid a reward, if I give them an M &M every time they use the toilet, they poop in the toilet, they'll never poop in the toilet without having an M &M. That's kind of the idea. And so, yeah, there's, it is true that there's some trade-offs between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation kind of broadly in how we like motivate people. There's like whole economics literatures about this in people's workplaces and how you think about structuring that.

47:45It's also true that, you know, every kindergarten classroom in the entire universe uses like some version of a token economy to try to reward behaviors and particularly behaviors that are habit formation behaviors. Right. So the reality is we were all potty trained on M &Ms or some other thing. and like I think most adults poop every day with an M &M. And the thing is that it's because eventually you just get in the habit of using the toilet and then you use the toilet, use the toilet and then you stop needing, you stop needing the M &Ms. And that's true of many kinds of habit formation things.

48:23So I think when sort of people think about like, what's a good place for rewards, like a sort of obvious place for rewards, it's something where we're really trying to develop a habit. You know, put your shoes away every day, put your, you know, like get up every morning, with the green on the alarm. If you do that for three weeks in a row, you'll get a stuffed animal or whatever it is. And by then, you know, three weeks in, they get the stuffed animal, but now they're just getting up with the green light every day and we don't need to sort of keep doing it. So I think that's where like this idea of like, yeah, generally intrinsic motivation is good, but also you can use rewards to generate habits.

49:03I actually think that's a perfect way of distinguishing it. It's like, it's not about morals and values. It's just like, do you need to learn how to brush your teeth every night or, you know, whatever. And then if it's like not going to matter in the long run, it's probably a good opportunity to use them. And if it is going to matter in the long run, I mean, I guess then you'd have to decide. I mean, there's like a super, this is super interesting connection to the economics literature because we tend to sort of think when we pay people that like, you know, rewards are like a piece rate, right?

49:36Like when you, if you did your job and like every time you made like 20 minutes of a podcast, you got like a, you know,$300 or whatever. Like that's, you know, and we don't compensate the making of podcasts that way because you need to be motivated to do a good job in a kind of more general way that we can't really observe, right? If I was going to pay you$300 for every 20 minutes of the podcast, you just like sit there in silence, go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think that's the question of, you know, whether this particular behavior is like something where the person really needs to put in time and think about it being great as opposed to just you literally need to do it.

50:15You just need to pee in the toilet. That's it. Just it's just it. You know, that's funny because my friend who's a runner. Oh, you're a runner. So maybe you won't even understand this. But she said, I mean, maybe you're like more of a runner than she is, but she's a runner. and I said to her, I'm so envious that you love running and that you just like get up every day and go running. Like I've always wanted to be that person. And she's like, I don't love running every day, but you know, like you might need some external motivation to get started because it's not like super exciting to be in a, you know, not aerobically fit and try to run a bunch of miles.

50:55And so you might push yourself and start a new habit. And I was like, wait a minute. People who run don't like get up excited to run every day. Like they have to sometimes push themselves. This to me was like the most shocking information because I like, as an adult, it would not occur to me like that there's a personality type. I don't know why. My college roommate, by the way, runs marathons and she seems very happy. I really liked it. like running is my favorite, like among my very favorite activities. She's like that. Like, she's like, I'm like, are you sure this is okay for you? She runs so many marathons.

51:37It's definitely not okay for you. But it's like, my husband's like, this is not, I was like, exercise is good. He's like, not this amount of extra. Like, this is not good for you. This is just something else. But maybe there's a point at which it is something else. But I was kind of amazed that there are some people, let's say they're not you or my college roommate Inga, who I think really just came, just you really derived joy from this. But there are some people like this woman, Sasha, who was like, I do it because it's something that is like on balance, really good for me and makes me feel good.

52:12But I push myself to do it on days when I don't want to. And for that, I give myself a latte after or whatever it is. And I was kind of like - like who reward themselves at the gym by watching a TV show that they like, like you save the very common thing. You like save episodes of TV show you like to get yourself to go to the gym. And then would you say like, is, and I think it's exactly the same. Would you be like, well, that's like, you know, that doesn't count. Like those, like that elliptical didn't count because you like were rewarded by it, you know, with an episode of hunting wives or whatever.

52:43It's like, no, that you still on the elliptical just as much, even if you're watching, you know, lesbian soft porn or whatever. I don't know what that show is like. That is what it is. But that's so true. And I don't think we say that, but that is something to just like have in our minds is have we taken it too far of like rewards are totally messing with motivation when like the reality is for certain things, does it matter? Yeah, but I think it's a good, it's also a sort of good, there's a place where you do actually want to be careful. So for example, when we talked about diet, We talked about like picky eating before.

53:23One of the things we know about picky eating is that the like approach that's like, you know, if you finish that broccoli, you can have ice cream, which is a kind of reward approach, actually doesn't work. It doesn't tend to develop the taste for broccoli. It just associates broccoli with like, like broccoli is bad. And so I think there is a space here where you're saying like, what's your goal there? Is your goal, your goal is to have people understand that broccoli is a delicious food, not that broccoli is a punishment, And so the habit formation there doesn't hit as much as the just like this.

53:57You need people to be intrinsically motivated to consume vegetables. I feel like that's true for like I saw somebody that was rewarding their one child for being nice to the other one. And I was like, I feel like that might be a funky message because you're not really habit forming kindness. this. But I guess there's a world for some people where they're like, no, that's the best we can do. There actually is a Berenstain Bears book about this where she, where they get, there's like a punishment system when they're not nice to each other and it works. So I don't know. That's. That does not sound like your usual data set.

54:37No, it's not. It's an N of one. It's an anecdotal, anecdotal, bear oriented anecdote. No, it's good. Okay. So what is a lot actually siblings? This is a good one for what do you see stretching people are like a kernel of something that's turned into a myth about siblings. So I think siblings are an interesting space where people have no idea what to do and they want very, very badly for their kids to like each other. And it's, and like, there isn't, they're not coming and being like, I heard if I do blah, they're just like, what is this? And I think part of what's so hard is that your kids, your sibling is like, that's such a unique relationship where like, on the one hand, they like, often your siblings, the siblings will have like, you know, this is like my ride or die.

55:33Like I do anything for my brother, but also drives me out of my mind. And like, that's a really weird kind of relationship. It is true when you look at the data that kind of one thing that seems to be bad for developing sibling relationships is like a lot of comparison is sort of, you know, why can't you be more like your sister, blah, blah, blah. Like that, that generates and what, you know, you sort of see at least in, in kind of more focus groupie data, like very, very long-term resentments, even in, in adult siblings. But we don't have evidence that I think people would like, which is like, how do I make my kids like each other?

56:08It's just really, really hard, partly because they're just people. And so, you know, sometimes they're going to like each other more than others. And when they become adults, it's going to depend on who they marry and, you know, what other things happen in their lives. Yeah. No. Yeah. But don't you want your kids to like each other? So like, I want them to like each other so much. So much. Like, it's probably my number one wish. Yeah. Yeah. And then they leave. I'm just kidding. They leave. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Okay. So if people are feeling stressed out, whether they have an infant, a toddler, a school-age child, an adolescent, what have you, I know what you've done, but tell us what you've done to kind of really, I think, contribute to taking this weight off of everybody's shoulders.

57:00So we have a website, parentdata.org. And I think that the best kind of like dial down my panic piece of this is if you are on the website and you like are in the search bar with your panic question, there is a AI chat bot, which is like trained on the Emily corpus of information, which will give you just like a snippet of an answer to whatever is your panic question. And then it will give you ways to go deeper so you can, you know, be further, further into, you know, relaxing. But I think that that really, like, I'd like to replace your panic Google. So, like, try this out before you panic Google and find out that you've done something terrible because it's very, very unlikely that you have.

57:45And the other panic Google people often have is, you know, what is this health issue my kid has? And we want to be there for that, too. So, you know, your baby's poop is green. I want you to ask me if that's okay because it is and then you can just go back to sleep so what are some flags which I know this could be an entire separate conversation but generally speaking if somebody's like I'm that's not good enough I need to panic google what are some red flags and part two of that is if you're on social media what are some red flags where somebody's super sure of data or something is super evidence-based, but you're like, no, it's not.

58:27How can people, how can people notice what they should stop listening to? Yeah. So I think one pretty strong thing I would say on social media in particular is there's a really big distinction between things you look for and things that are, that look, the things that look for you. So, you know, if you're, if you're Googling something or, you know, you're searching in some way, like I think you should be on parent data, but you know, most of the time, the first thing you get to on, you know, like most of the time you're going to get to at least reliable sources of information as the kind of early stuff.

59:06What's tricky about social media is often you will be sort of coming into this, just almost not even looking for the answer to a question. And then someone will be kind of at you with, you know, vaccines are killing your kid or, you know, you've ruined them in this way or you dropped your kid at daycare. They think you died, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff that doesn't, isn't true and isn't, and isn't something you're looking for. And really you're not in a position to evaluate it. So I would say like the most important piece of advice, rather than saying, you know, this particular kind of person is not trustworthy or whatever, is to just say like, am I looking for the answer to this question right now?

59:45Is this relevant for a decision that I'm making or not? And if it is not relevant for a decision that you're making, you should try not to read it. And you can file it away for later. You can write down like later, I'd like to learn more about the relationship between, you know, daycare and whether my kid thinks I'm dead. I'm going to go figure that out in some reputable source that I can search in, but I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole in a moment that I am not prepared for.

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