The 7 Conversations to Have with Your Kid Before They Get a Device w/ Dr. Jean Twenge

0:00The following podcast is a Dear Media Production.

0:09Welcome to Raising Good Humans. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman. And today we're talking with Professor Jean Twenge. She's a professor of psychology at San Diego State University. She's the author of more than 150 scientific publications and her latest book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World, is out now. This is such a controversial conversation. What we talked about today were the seven conversations that you need to have with your kids before you embark on any technology, regardless of age. So we're talking about those seven conversations and then the fundamental rules that we absolutely need to have in the household.

0:47We also talked about how Dr. Twenge has an age recommendation, which I think is a little bit tricky. You need to take into account your own household. We can't do that for you. So of course, researchers and psychologists are going to err on the side of the oldest age possible to stretch the time between, you know, childhood and exposure to social media, for example. But we also look to you. I mean, ultimately, this is a personal decision. You have to also think about your bandwidth, how much support you have, how much support you can give your kids, and who they are and what their temperament is.

1:24So I don't want you to be so stuck on an age, But at least when you hear what experts say about age recommendations, it sort of pushes you in the direction of just like, don't do it as early as you think. I don't want anybody to panic. You know your kids and their capacity and your capacity. and that is a huge factor that cannot be replicated in studies and it isn't something that we can universally say is the thing. So I hope you enjoy this episode. I hope it doesn't stress you out and gives you more confidence to have rules that make sense to you, conversations that will be helpful and as always, reach out to me.

2:08Let me know your follow-up questions. Follow me on Substack, drlizapressman.substack.com where I can answer your questions in free articles. Join me in my monthly parent group. That's the membership substack. That does have a small fee, but it's less than a cup of coffee. So I feel like it's fine. We'll keep talking about this. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review for Raising Good Humans podcast to get further out into the world. Okay, take a deep breath for this one. So we're gonna dive right in. So what are the 10 conversations that you want us to have with our young people anytime we're thinking about, are they ready for devices, like to set them up?

2:51I think it's important to put this in the context that the book is called 10 Rules because it is about the rules as well as those conversations. But yes, there need to be conversations as well as rules. So I'm just flipping through the book here. So the first one is never, ever send someone a nude picture of yourself. So much bad stuff has happened. I mean, it seems obvious, but there's... No, you need to say it. Yeah, you need to say it. Kids have crushes and they don't always realize or process that, oh, I'm just sending this to my friend. Well, once you do that, it can go anywhere. And just as one example, Snapchat receives 10 ,000 reports of sextortion a month, meaning someone sends a nude picture and then a blackmailer who often the kid thinks is someone their age, but it's not, will say, I'm going to send this picture to all of your friends and family and then she'd pay me a certain amount of money.

3:44And so those are two things because one is the phone in general, just texting. And then the other is now when you're adding the layer of social media. So the conversation about just generally speaking, there's no universe where you send nudes to anyone. Yeah, exactly. Because you just never know where it's going to end up. which I think leads to your next point about what you're posting. Yes, the next one, don't post anything on social media or online that you wouldn't want announced on a loudspeaker at school. So, because it's public, you may not think about it as public if you just think you're just sending it to your friends.

4:20But again, that can go anywhere. They could screenshot it. Exactly. Screenshot. I've seen kids also record like with a separate device. their phones or somebody else's phone. You know, because I think sometimes people are like, well, you're not allowed to screenshot this because there's a rule. But it's like, well, it's easy enough to break. Exactly. The third one, don't share information about your identity online or while gaming. And a lot of kids don't realize that. You know, you shouldn't be telling people your home address or your password or anything like that. Or if you get a link, it's the same advice we give to adults.

4:55But kids don't always have the experience to know, hey, maybe this is a scam. What are examples of personal information beyond like name and address that sometimes comes up that feels innocent enough and isn't? Anything around a password, you know, social security number, that falls in that category as well. Even your birthday sometimes, because if someone can get your name, your birthday and your social security number, they can steal your identity. So maybe they got one from one source and then they're asking you about the other one. Okay. All right. Keep them coming. Yeah. Don't assume that texts or Snapchats are private.

5:29So text, we think of that as being private. But again, they can be screenshotted and end up going anywhere. And that's unfortunately especially true for kids if they have a falling out with a friend and then that embarrassing text is still there and they do whatever they want with it. Yeah. I remember a while back, there was a conversation, which is no longer really a conversation about whether or not parents should be sort of monitoring or checking what's going on with text. And a lot of young people saying, well, that invades my privacy. And I think to your point, like, it's not really private.

6:04If it were your diary and you hand wrote it, that is sacred and private. But this is, you've made a decision that it's not private the minute it goes on the device. Yeah. So, you know, you may want to keep it private from your parents, but you have sent it to a friend and then that friend can put it anywhere. So next one, think twice and three times before you post anything mean and then don't do it. Sorry. It's not funny, but it was funny. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, I try to use humor in the book. It keeps it interesting and light in a a topic that is can be very heavy. But, you know, I mean, this is great advice for adults too on social media or texting.

6:46It's classic social psychology that our inhibitions are lifted when things seem anonymous or when we can't see the face of the person in front of us. Yeah. And I think even when we can, this, yeah, this just adds a layer, especially at the age when you're just sort of potentially trying to bond over talking negatively about anybody. Mm-hmm. Okay, so think twice and then don't do it. Don't do it. First, because you got to think about how that other person feels, even if they've been mean to you. Still, they're still a person. You just got to keep that in mind. If you would not say it to their face, then don't text it or put it on social media.

7:23Okay. So the next one, if you're curious about bodies or sex, ask me first or we can look it up together. I've had some people suggest to me, oh, kids have never come to you. My kids have come to me about stuff like that. I had that conversation with them, you know, pretty young. And not every kid is going to, but at least the offer is there. But the problem is you do a Google search on that, especially on a device that doesn't have parental controls on it, you're gonna get stuff that's scary. Let's just put it that way. Even an adult, you have to think about that sometimes with certain Google searches.

7:52You're like, wait, what am I gonna see that I can't unsee? Yeah, that you can't unsee, I think is the most important point. And if we're askable people and we've made that clear, and I think saying that is so important because if you say it before it's happening, before it's a curiosity. I actually think that's true about anything they'd be curious about. Yeah, good point. Because I mean, violence can fall into that category as well. We've had so much of that recently where there's been such violence on devices and it's terrifying. And I think people were curious and the more people are talking about it, they get curious.

8:26So if we can get our kids to really come to us when they're curious about something and know that we're open, it's game changing. Absolutely. That you can't be defensive or mad about it. And you may say, hey, this is something that I don't really want to look up online. But I did this the other day with my 15-year-old. We were talking about female reproductive system. And I'm like, you know what? I don't really want to Google this. So I went and grabbed the book off the shelf. And we looked at that together instead. I figured that was going to be safer. And it was. That's a good idea. But it also is so cool to have the book on the shelf and to be able to say like, this is not something that's, I don't think it's crazy that you're asking me.

9:03It's something to be curious about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it has to be. You know, yeah, I'm glad you asked. I'm glad you're curious about it. You know, let's let's take a look at this together. I do in the book talk about some downsides of modern parenting. I think that's one of the huge upsides is that we can just be more open to more conversations compared to maybe what conversations we might have had with our parents. for sure. And now for a quick break. Bloom is the number one greens brand in the United States. Made with 32 functional superfoods, essential vitamins and minerals, digestive enzymes, and more, greens are an easy and effective addition to any daily routine.

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12:43So the last one is... Oh, thank you. The last one is your time is a precious resource. So I say, ask your teens this question. what are you going to remember from your teen years? The hours you spent playing Block Blast or the times you spent with your friends in person? And of course, it's going to be the second one. So prioritize that. And this one is a classic example of you can talk to your kids about it, but you have to put the rules in place to actually make it happen because there's so much conspiring against them for them to waste their time in so many different ways, usually on social media.

13:18For sure. And let's get into the rules because I mean, I have like of the five of the five principles of parenting that I wrote, it's relationship, which you addressed, reflection, which was just that last question, regulation, which we need in order to go through this, and then rules. And then of course, repair. But I think rules is scary. And you mentioned challenges to those rules. What are the most salient rules to you that like really, really matter. And after that, maybe we can talk about some of the things that might come between us and feeling like we can be consistent about those rules.

13:54So I think the most important one is no devices in the bedroom overnight. Agreed. If you only have the bandwidth for one, do that one. The research on it is super clear. It's really tough for kids to make the argument that they need their phone or access to social media in the middle of the night. It's pretty much a non-starter. her. Yeah. I just dropped my daughter off to college and I was like, oh my God, I can't take her phone at night anymore. I have to just hope that this is a habit that sticks. And that's, that's what you have to do is you have to instill those, those good habits. And then it, hopefully it's become rote for her to not be on her phone in the middle of the night.

14:31I hope you bought her an alarm clock too. That's the other thing you have to do. I did. But it was, it was one of my biggest concerns because I was like, oh, well, if sleep is so highly linked with your capacity to manage living on your own here and phones disrupt that so much and I can't just take it. And the other side of that, like when I say this, I hope nobody interprets this as so then you should give them practice managing it on their own before they go to college because that's ridiculous. Like I still would like someone to take my phone away and to ask somebody to have that self-control in high school is silly.

15:07Yeah, exactly. People will sometimes ask me similar to that, you know, hey, you know, don't they need to practice that or don't, you know, when do you let go? And like, don't they, you know, won't they go crazy once they get to college? No, I don't, I don't think so. I don't know how many data suggesting that that's the case, that if they have rules and they learn how to, they learn how to work within them and they learn good habits that then, then they'll go nuts when they get to college. I don't think so. And also they know why, Like you're not just saying it's a rule, you're giving them pretty good evidence that it's an important one.

15:39And then I would say the last part about that is like, let's just say they did then go online all night in college. It's probably a good clue that they would have done that before. And that was even in a more important wiring time for their brain. So why would you want to rush that? So on either end of the argument, it sort of doesn't really feel great to me. Exactly. Yeah. Because, yeah, they're going to do the bad stuff, you know, when they turn 18. Okay. Better than they did it at 18 instead of 12. Right? Totally. You know, or even 16 or 17. I wholeheartedly agree. That's like such a no-brainer.

16:17What happens to parents a lot is they really want to do this, but then they're like convinced by their incredibly passionate young person at home that they're the only parent in the world or that this is so terrible. and like we need to give everybody confidence that it's actually really great. No, absolutely. And I always want to make clear, you know, I'm coming at this from the perspective, not just as a researcher, but as the parent of three teenagers. And just as one example, because it made me think of it when you were talking about, you know, passionate young person who's going to push back, right?

16:49So my 13-year-old is actually really, she's pretty good. She's, you know, had her moments, but she's pretty good about following the rules and understands them and so on. But I told her the other day she could not have Pinterest on her phone. And she said, what? You don't want me to be inspired? So I had to come up with a response to that in the moment, which was, yeah, you can get inspired in other ways. Yeah. But still, yeah, they're going to push back. They're teenagers. That's their job. That's the other reason why I think it's so much easier to have clear rules rather than squishy ones. So, yeah.

17:25But you do. You have to believe in it yourself and just be willing to stand your ground. Which is why a silly rule is silly. Like save them. I think if we get too granular about them and too over the top, then we lose credibility. But when they're like, no, these actually really make a difference and matter, it's easier to follow them. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what you want. You want rules that are actually going to make a difference. And I've also found too that even though I have a ton of respect for the writers out there who say, hey, let's go completely tech free. I think for the vast majority of families, that's just not realistic for a long list of reasons.

18:03So given that, you have to figure out how to manage the devices, introduce them when they're ready, things like that. Okay, let's talk more about the rules because I think you're right. I think this is not for someone who's saying we're just not going to have any technology because that probably is one solution. But I don't know that it's rooted in like the reality of 2020. What year are we? 2025? Yeah. And, you know, I do think you can take that argument too far. Because I've heard people say, oh, this is just the way kids are and there's nothing we could do about it. And I strongly disagree with that.

18:35But unless you're homeschooling your kids or sending them to the only school in the universe that doesn't have laptops, they're going to have some tech, right? They're going to have some technology. And, you know, most parents are going to want their kid to have some type of phone, you know, at some point. At some point. In middle school. Right. At some point. So I think you have to work within certain parameters, but there's a lot you can do within those parameters. So one thing is the rule number four, which is first phones should be basic phones. So often this comes sometime in middle school.

19:13You know, your kid's taking a bus or they have sports practice or they're walking to school or whatever it is. And so you want them to have a phone. So what's become common is you just hand them a smartphone. That's it. That's a disaster. You try to solve the one problem of maybe they need to, in an unusual situation, call you like once every other month and it becomes they're attached to that phone, you know, 10 hours a day. So it solves this relatively small problem and then creates a huge, big problem. So for very young kids, get them a flip phone. Then they can call you. They can't do anything else on it.

19:48Some people do a smartwatch, but I'm really cautious about smartwatches given some things I've heard of first and second grade teachers having to chase kids off of smartwatches where they can watch YouTube on it and play games on it. I sat next to a kid who looked about 11 at my daughter's band concert. She spent the entire time instead of listening to her brother or sister be in the band and hear some cool music playing a game on her smartwatch. So I think that's maybe not the solution until they're, maybe not at all, but maybe not until they're significantly older or if you could lock down the smartwatch somehow.

20:18Yeah, I know. I mean, I'm always like, do you want that? Because I just think even with adults with a smartwatch, like you could be in conversation and even if they're... And then it's buzzing. It's buzzing. Yeah, exactly. In some ways it's worse than a phone. You know, they have limited functionality, but what you want is limited functionality on a phone. So for very young kids, maybe a flip phone, but once they're a little bit older, then you can get basic phones designed for kids where they can text and call, maybe play a few games, but only, you know, if you okay installing them. No social media, no AI companion apps like AI boyfriends and girlfriends, which are becoming shockingly common.

20:57Yeah. And most of them have also no internet browser. So as my 15-year-old once put it, you can't do anything on this phone. And I said, that is the point. Even that phone, recognize that's not what they're going to use it for. 99 % of the time, what they're going to use it for is texting their friends and playing the couple of games you give them access to. So just be cautious about how much you give them access to. I learned that one the hard way. But then they can text their friends. And so, you know, beyond like 12 or so, that's often how they're going to communicate. Now, should they be seeing each other in person and calling?

21:33Absolutely. But texting is kind of where kids are. And, you know, again, I don't want to take this argument too far because I've heard people make the same argument about social media. And that's a myth as far as I can tell. They do not need social media to communicate with each other. They can call and text and then it doesn't have the algorithm in. Yes, they may still be engrossed in it, but not as much as algorithmic social media. Usually it's one on one, maybe a group text at most. It's not as performative. There's not the content flowing in from influencers. It's just a different animal. Yeah, a lot of people get worried about text right now.

22:10And I think that's maybe because they feel like it's a gateway. I'm not sure. And I can see that. And for a 10-year-old, I think it's not a good idea. That's another reason. If that's something you're concerned about, most of the kids' phones have a portal where you can see their texts. And I actually told my kids that I'm not really that interested in reading their texts. You know, I just mostly just don't want them on social media. I have told them that many times in terms of my reasoning. And now for a quick break. Let me tell you about Osea because Osea has been a partner of Raising Good Humans podcast since the beginning.

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