The Power of Real Optimism: What It Actually Means (and How to Practice It) w/ Dr. Deepika Chopra

29:12Number one, my cousin who I call my little sister, were very close. We both had to have C-sections with our first kind of around the same time. Well, hers a little bit after mine, but both of us, the doctors were like, your kids are breached. You have to choose a date that if the, you know, the OR is free, like the idea of choosing my child's birthday was probably one of the most stress inducing. She's a physician and she literally looked at the calendar. I was just like, this is convenient. Yeah. She's like, Fridays would be good because her husband is a surgeon as well. And this would be good because I can work up till the week.

29:47And then like, you know, the weekend, like hers was very like pragmatic and practical. I consulted with the Chinese calendars, the Zodiac signs. Oh my gosh, friends, like Vedic, like anything I could find rack my brain and was like in the end of it, paralyzed. Couldn't come up with anything because I did not want the responsibility. And I didn't want the lack of meaning of just choosing the birthday. And the funny thing is, well, it was an emergent, dangerous situation. So it wasn't funny. But my son came early. He came on his own accord. He switched a whole sign from what he was supposed to be.

30:28And I didn't have to choose it. It wasn't practical in the end. It wasn't fun. It was horrible and emergent. But I look back and every time like, thank God, I just didn't have to choose. Like you don't have to be responsible for that. Yeah. And my sister, I call her my sister. She was like in that moment after all these years, I realized how hard it must be to be in that head of yours. And honestly, I took it as like I felt seen, but I wouldn't trade it because I am that type of person where, you know, I can like tears will come out of my eyes if like the wind is moving a branch in the right way.

31:02So there, you know, every part of it, and my middle son is like that. And I talked to him about this. Now, I think having kids, there's like such a fun part of it where you see or you recognize things that you've been through. And I finally feel at that place because for a long time, even for the last, I don't know, six years of having kids, I never quite felt like I should have children. I still felt like I was like 16. Like it just didn't feel right to me. I'm like, how am I these people's mom? Yeah. But now I finally feel at this place where it's like, there's so many of these like full circle moments and sharing them with them or being able to say like, wait, I've lived through this or my older son being made fun of for something and being like, well, I remember when I was in the third grade and this happened and just being transparent and showing them that like, you know, I don't know any of the answers or all of them, but I've definitely been through some stuff And I'm like open to sharing it with them.

32:00And I getting their perspective is almost like a nice opportunity also to look back and think about how I might have done something differently if I was a kid like them or it's really, really it's optimistic. Yeah. Well, believing that there are different possibilities, believing that our kids can kind of forge their own path and maybe make different choices and offer something to us about those choices. and also that we don't, I am optimistic about the fact that we don't have as much control as people think we do, but it's also, it is scary. But, and I actually bend, I would say, like, my assumption is that generally speaking, there's potential for good stuff to happen or at least change to happen.

32:55Yes. But I'm also like, if things are too good, then I'm like, well, this is terrible. Right. I have that in me as well. And I don't know if it's cultural for my, like we culturally, I'm not supposed to, like don't talk about wins. The good, right, right, right. And what's so interesting, every bit of, and it changes with me because in my family, because every bit of research I have ever studied on optimism and positive psychology is like focus and marinate even on the good. Because I don't have to tell myself or anyone else to focus on what we need to improve on, what doesn't feel good, what we're worried about.

33:34Like you already know that. We do it. We're wired that way. Right. And I'm not, I'm also not the person, which I think is surprising to many to tell people to turn that off. Like I don't believe in ignorance is bliss. I believe in like the power of knowledge and knowing and I'm not telling people to not watch the news. Yes, boundary it, but like I believe we need to know. But at the same time, I think what we need to add intentionally is to focus on those good moments. And so we do something with my kids every night, which is favorite part of the day. And we've always done it. And I know there's, you know, it's funny because this is so my children, but it started as like, what's your favorite part of the day?

34:14What was the hardest part of your day, you know, the rose, you know, all that. But my kids took it to this whole other level. And it started because they probably just wanted a really long nighttime routine. It's like, what was, you know, the thing that made you have butterflies in your stomach today? What was the funniest thing? What made you laugh? Like it was like 10 questions and then it became like silly. So we just do what your favorite part of the day was. Of course, at that nighttime is when all the other stuff comes out. And I think that's my favorite part of the whole day with my children is right before bed one-on-one time and just like what they say and what comes out especially with my older one he's just like ready to talk and so but i favorite part of the day and he just reminded me the other day we haven't been doing that in a little bit and it's and it actually is feeling different you know i have this deck of cards things are looking up it's an optimism deck of cards that a few years ago I wrote.

35:11And then after having kids, I actually, I was developing the kids version first, but the adult one is what just came out and went forward. And then about a year or so ago, the kids one, we just finished. And what was so amazing is my kids got to illustrate it. So we did it together and they themselves are like, like, especially my middle one. He's like, I think we need to pull out the cards. Like whenever he needs some regulation. And what are the cards? Like what's an example of one of the cards? So there's 52 of them. They each have a science-based. I can't believe I haven't given you these.

35:47I do not have these. I really love this. I need to give them to you. They're called things you're looking up. Kids, because that's the kids version. There's 52 of them. They're each a science-based prompt. So they're not like affirmations. Yeah. They're actual. They're action. items. They tell you what to do and take you through something. And they're short, most of them. They range from some are like really fun, interesting breathing exercises, like making yourself into a tree and, you know, going through a whole breathing exercise. And they love it because they're getting up and doing all these different things.

36:20It's active. Yes, it's active. To like, you know, really thinking about like a recipe for like a happy moment, like actually the ingredients or going on a happiness hunt, like a walk or around your house and picking out things or talking about something that felt vulnerable in language that's more suitable for kids and sort of talking their way through it. And so naming something that was hard that you didn't think you could do, but like you actually are doing it now. And so they really range. Each one's a little different, so it's fun. and what was so interesting or fun for me is that before I joined my preschool, which we are now, it's a preschool and elementary school, which you're actually coming to speak.

37:06I am. Oh, are you at the center? Yeah, yeah. Like this week, right? I hope not. Oh no, maybe not. I have no idea. Don't even, that's another thing. I think I've realized I'm a type B mom. It's in February. Okay. I realize there now that I know I'm a type B mom, but it's okay. That's just how it is. I mean, I think that's a gift. So I actually want to expand on that a little bit. So three things that you kind of lightly mentioned, will you expand on? The importance of rituals and routines for optimism. And I do want to know kind of the distinction between affirmations and what really is of benefit.

37:51Yes. Oh, okay. So rituals are just one of the healthiest, like best ways that most optimal ways that we can exercise control. They're extremely grounding. And I think for kids especially who really look to routine, that is they are coming out into this world hot and heavy on, you know, they're learning the idea that they're not in control. while they are trying so hard to exercise control from a developmental standpoint. You probably know this more than me, but rituals are a way of giving them something that they can look forward to. And all these other things can go on in their day that can be things that were out of their control or in their control.

38:39And they work so hard at school to sort of like just stay contained, but knowing that they have something that they can, it's the same way why I think when we were kids, and I don't know if people do it anymore, but I feel like in the 80s and the 90s, they just had something right. And I don't know if this is just anecdotal. I feel like a lot of families, including mine, had like specific nights, like Friday pizza. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taco Tuesday. Yes. Taco Tuesday, like blockbuster and pizza night or bowling. Like we had these like familial rituals that I just don't hear that much about anymore.

39:13I don't know. I actually, it goes even further. I've noticed something that is such a bummer. And I wonder how people have experienced this. I'll be curious. But I've noticed that let's say you do have, you know, Friday nights we always get together or we do have Sunday night pizza night that parents will say, well, my child didn't feel like doing that or they wanted to make other plans and so we won't do it this week. And I'm like - But that's the whole point. That's the whole point. And they're gonna want to stray, but that's what it is. But we keep it, especially as your kids - It's like sacred.

39:49Become adolescents. Like, I can't tell you how many times parents have been like, yeah, I can't get them to do Friday night anymore. I'm like, what do you mean you can't get them? It can just be, it is what you do. Right, right. It's the ritual in your family. Right. So it's a non-negotiable. And it's so soothing. And it is something, whether or not you're in the mood for or not, it's a guarantee. And so I don't know that the research has been done on this. Right. But I agree with you. anecdotally, it feels like people feel so worried that their kids are going to be like, but that's not what I want to be doing.

40:22And they're much easier to just let it go. Yeah. So I think if anybody listening to this has felt that like yearning for that kind of ritual, but worried that they're forcing family time or something, go ahead and do it. Do it. Like I think that's so - Everything points to, and I like that you used the word soothing because that's what it is. It's that way for us too. When we have a ritual, there's something balming about it. I think of it like that. It's soothing. Our brains need to have something that they know no matter what is going on. And so it's the same way why I think I have one. And the thing is, it can't be too many.

41:02It's the same way as morning rituals. We do know from research that how you start your morning off is it has an impact on the trajectory of the rest of your day. They really do. So I think it's great to hear that this promotes an optimism. Oh, absolutely. So, yeah. And further into adulthood, like for us as well. Yeah, because I'm, I mean, I'm not going to start making my bed every morning because I got, but I do have the ritual of receiving the bed making. Yes, which is really nice too. My ritual is I try every morning to wake up and dance. Oh, that's so great. And I started in COVID. I've always been someone that music for me, and that's a big thing in our house, like our whole family.

41:44Like my middle son asks for dance parties all the time, like after dinner. But for me, my own self, I try to wake up. And the first thing I do is turn on whatever music I feel like turning on before I talk to anybody. And I might get only 10 seconds because I do have to talk to people. But it's like the commitment that you've made. It's the commitment to just do it. I love the idea of a ritual that is sort of like a habit stack. So you're getting multiple things happening at once that hit on many things because let's face it, who has time to do 10 things? But that one thing, it helps me move in the morning, which moving is helpful.

42:21It's probably the only movement I really do, which is terrible. Besides running after my kids. Just this season. Yeah, this season. But also music's a big, big thing for me. Like music single-handedly, and this is why I'm so passionate. I'm obsessed with hearing about everyone's unique tools. Yeah, because for you, music is such a good tool. For me, music can shift my mood in any direction and immediately. Ethan Cross has research on this. Yes. I forget his book Shift had like in his lab, he did research on the sort of exact songs that we kind of the playlist that we put together to regulate our moods.

43:01Yes. Yes. It's very cool. I mean, and it can go either way. For me, even when I'm sad, I have my music and it's not to lift me out of it. It's to further me and just go through it. Yeah. Music is the number one, probably most effective tool for me. Breath is up there, being out in nature, just walking, whatever it is, hugging, physical contact for me. But music is like by far my tool. Your top tool. Yeah. And now for a quick break. So anybody who's a parent knows that feeding decisions are just not a one-time thing. You make them all day, every day, again and again, stage after stage. And sometimes the options are overwhelming.

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45:08No artificial dyes, flavors or sweeteners either. And you know what? That's a win that we can take every time. And get 30 % off your first online order at littlespoon.com slash RGH with the code RGH. That's L-I-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N.com slash RGH with the code RGH for 30 % off your first order. Okay. One last question. Oh, yeah. And we were talking about affirmations. Oh, yes. Okay. So this sort of has to do with affirmations. But I really want to hear your take on manifestation. Yeah, this has to do with affirmations. And so I think affirmations and that part of the conversation. I just want your scientific take because I think this is one of those things that sort of took on a life of its own and gets deeply misunderstood.

46:01Absolutely. So manifestation, which obviously it's 2026, every single human listening has probably has some relationship with that word, whether it is something that lights them up or makes them eye roll, whatever it is. They have a relationship to that word. I actually did my dissertation many, many, many years ago on evidence-based manifestation through optimism and visual imagery. But I think what a lot of people miss, and I'm not saying everyone, but sort of the general idea of what manifestation is. People really focus on this idea of just knowing what you want and then waiting to see it fall and drop into your lap because you want it so badly.

46:43I wanted it. I called for it. I put it out in the universe and now it will appear. Ask and it is given. And I think that what's interesting is I, in high school, as a 10th grader, had a best friend whose mom was really into the law of attraction. And she used to give me like tapes and then CDs of it. And I would listen in my like Chevy Tahoe as a, you know, 15 year old to Abraham Hicks and all that stuff. And I truly like, I believe in it. I believe what they're saying. What I couldn't get past just me because I was always a question seeker. I had to know like why for everything. I couldn't just take things like faith value.

47:28They're the predecessor of the secret. You know, they talk about the law of attraction, but where it comes from is like they're having this spirit or embodiment of this person named Abraham who like goes through Esther Hicks and then she talks through like his voice coming out. That part, it just, I couldn't get through for me. But I got so much out of it. I never read the law of attraction or the secret. Okay. So this is where this all comes from. And it's where the big boom of manifestation really started. That and Course in Miracles, all of that stuff. But I truly lived as a 10th and 11th grader, which I thought was quite young for it.

48:07I believed in it. And it really did change the way I thought and I think the way I sort of lived my life. And I still believe in it. But what I think probably in my mind seeked out to do was to try to prove it neuroscientifically for myself so that I could actually not have this like big shadow of doubt that made things difficult for me to really fully drop in. And so when I was in grad school, I think not really intentionally, I think that was just like always there. And so I became really interested in the idea of positive future thinking and how that affected behavior. And the part that I will say, because this could be an entire episode on manifestation that I think people miss is yes, it is very powerful to understand what you want for sure, but we don't always get what we want.

49:01What we most always get is what we expect. And I think that gap of you could want something 10 out of 10, but do you really expect? And do you think it's a possibility for you for real? Because our brains are, not to sound cliche, is a very smart organ and it's efficient. And you are not tricking your brain here. It knows, it collects evidence. And so if you say, I really 10 out of 10 want this relationship, but three out of 10 do I think it can happen for me? Unless you close that gap and you work on the expectation, you're probably not going to achieve it. So if you hear yourself or someone else using the kind of language that's like, I'm probably not going to get that part, or I'm probably not going to get on that team, or I'm probably not going to get asked to the dance, or I'm just trying to think of all the different examples.

49:52How do you close the gap to interrupt that thinking without it being an unrealistic appraisal? Right. So one of the best ways is visual imagery. Your brain has mirror neurons, and it doesn't really quite know the difference between when it's imagining something and when you're actually doing it. If you've imagined it and hopefully you've used all your senses, your brain now has an image. It thinks that the mirror neurons have already fired. It is a possibility now. You've seen it. So you are more likely to be able to buy into it. If you truly do not believe that something is possible, your brain will not kickstart the executive functioning part to come up with solutions to any of the problems It's the same way why many people would love to win the lottery, but they don't think they're going to win the lottery, so they will not buy a lotto ticket.

50:43And if they don't buy a lotto ticket, they're not going to win the lottery. Right. So it's not about willing something to happen. It's just there's more of a possibility of something happening if you imagine that it could, so you do the actions that lead you to that. But if you believe that you deserve to be in a relationship and you're confident in that, you're more likely to go out on Friday night to a bar or say yes to something. If you truly don't believe it, you're probably going to have a thought about it, which then makes you have an emotion about it, which then is like, I'm going to stay home.

51:17Your behavior is different. So, so like, I think that is a great way for people to think about closing that gap. Yeah. It's just, it's not because you're willing it and it's going to fall in your lap more because you just don't believe it enough. It's like, it drives you to action and action makes you closer to, to meeting that goal or pivoting to a different direction. And the work is really, why don't you believe it? And how can you start to dismantle the self-limiting belief that is keeping you from believing it's a possibility? That's the work. And it's slow. You know, it's not like then we come to affirmations.

51:56Honestly, like affirmations can be really helpful for some people. But what research shows is not only that best is it unhelpful. It is detrimental to the people that actually need it the most. So when you hold a specific belief in something and then you just look in the mirror and say the opposite, your brain is like, wait a second. I've got 40 years of evidence to prove to you why what you're saying is not true. And it's pretty stupid that you're saying it in front of this mirror. And then you have an added level of not only is it not true, but you don't believe in it more. You don't believe in it even more.

52:32And so you have to I have this thing and I talk about it in one of the chapters of the book. it's about I've come up with this rule the seven-tenths rule if you believe something truly and I like rating everything it's the cognitive behavioral you know therapist in me from from back back then but if you believe something seven out of ten then you can use it as an affirmation and the reason why to make this full circle kids I'm much more open with kids to use affirmations is because they truly do believe these things much more they don't have a lot of the years of evidence and baggage that we have, that we have sort of collected to make whatever it is we're telling ourselves not true, if that makes sense.

53:13It totally does. So when kids have like, I'm going to be a baseball star, I'm going to be a ballerina, we don't need to knock them off that dream pedestal yet? No. My eight-year-old literally the other day said we had a little date together and he said he started talking about college which just kills me because i'm not when i will ever be there i don't know my husband is like thankfully already someone that is there he went away he went to brown for college and he didn't grow up and he grew up in north carolina i have lived my whole life here i went to and then he went to school here yeah and i sent my daughter across the country this year it's really hard but amazing but it's amazing i will be the person like this is the work I have to do.

53:59Otherwise, I will hold my children back. And I already do. So that is my work for real. And I truly believe, I know all the research, taking the risks, letting them, all of that. I know. It's all easier said than done. And I think, again, temperament-wise, even harder for some people. And I am in that camp. But my son, so I went to UCLA for undergrad. My husband went to Brown. And in the car the other day, out of nowhere, he was like, you know what? I think I want to go to Brown. And I was like, okay. Already thinking about like, do I need to look into apartments in Providence? And I was like, okay.

54:36And he's like, yeah, I don't think I really want to go to UCLA. Like, first of all, the idea that he could just say he wants to go to either, of course, I'm not going to sit there and be like, it's really hard to, there's a lot, you know, I'm just listening. And he's like, but that's also like going to college. That's only if I don't get drafted, you know, to be in the MLB. And if I don't, then I'll be in the NBA. Then if not, I'll go to college and I'll design Legos. So like, wow, why would I be the one to be like statistical chances of a half Jewish, half Indian kid from LA who is like average height?

55:13Maybe his brother or sister, just kidding. He's probably going to listen at some point, but they're, they're really, They went on my husband. They're really tall. But yeah, there's no statistical. There's no reason because you know what? Like, number one, there's outliers. Right. And who am I to say, you know, anything about what the possibility might or might not be? And he's eight. And like, of course, this is a time for him to dream big and be whatever. At eight years old, I wanted to wash dishes. That's all. And I want to be an archaeologist. And I'm not doing either of those two things. I mean, I am washing dishes, but not professionally.

55:48like I wanted to. And I'm certainly not an archaeologist, although it's still on my bucket list to like go on a dig someday. But, you know, I think that that is a good example. But even further than that, you know, truly affirmations like, you know, you see the Instagram videos of kids that are like on their way out to school and they're like, I am brave. I am lovable. I am loved. I am smart. I am whatever, you know, whatever those things are. I truly believe in there's potency in that and good value in that for the kids because they have reason to believe that and not a lot to challenge it. And that is our time to do that.

56:24Now, a 45-year-old that just needs to look in the mirror and you tell them, just say, I am loved and I'm deserving of love and I'm worthy, when maybe they've had a lot of experiences that they hold this self-limiting belief that maybe even if it's irrational is the opposite of that, it would be doing them detriment. What we really need to do is start to focus on what are some things you like about yourself? Not, I love myself. And like slowly move our way. It's all about evidence collecting. That is so great because I think it's misunderstood, but can be so helpful. Yes. And doable. And the other part about this that I want to just touch on for our kids, imagine, and I think you would truly get this and I hope, I think you'd agree, but imagine teaching our kids or just going out in the world and being like, I wanted this.

57:19And then it appeared like, where did the work go? Where did the journey go? Like that is not like we're just basically focusing on what we want and then the outcome. And very rarely does stuff like that actually happen. And to be honest, even people that think it does, they're just discounting their own work that they put in, which is part of their resilience story, which is where optimism is grown from. Yes. And so we're really missing the like meat and the good part. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I think about, I think all the time when I was little, I danced and I was pretty obsessed with ballet.

57:59This was like before my body was like, that is not an appropriate want. And I had a poster of a ballerina on my wall that said, if you can imagine it, you can dream it. No, wait, if you can imagine it, you can dream it. If you can dream it, you can become it. And I was really, really certain that I was going to be a ballerina. And then when I was 15, I ended up, it was recommended to me that I quit by the ballet mistress. And I took that poster down and I threw out all my, you know, like I just was like, this is bullshit. Like affirmations are bullshit. Believing in something. I worked so hard, like so, so hard.

58:43And then I was like, I'm never working hard on anything again because it's pointless because you can't just will something to want it that way. So I went through a time period where I very much believed in you could do whatever you put your mind to. then I was like well that was a lie right and I really resent that lie except that as I look back it brought me to this next thing that brought me to another thing that brought me to end up being so passionate about what I am what I'm doing now right so it was just not that particular specific Which I think is so interesting on a few levels with that because it's like you could still dance and be a ballerina.

59:30Maybe not. Right. I just was like it was all or nothing. Right. All or nothing. Like I'm going to be a prima ballerina at the New York City Ballet. And that's often what we were taught. Right. And so. Like it's not worth pursuing if it's not going to be excellence. Right. If it's not that. And I think that that is only from this standpoint of like wisdom that you can truly look back and be able to say, well, if I didn't do that, look how this fit like this. And it went through there and it went like my husband. He was an athlete. He played baseball in college and he didn't go to the MLB, but he coaches my kids little league.

1:00:07he played basketball all of high school not in college because he was playing baseball but he plays pickup basketball with the dads of school or like whatever it is you know all of his athleticism and his hard work he looks at now too which is like it kept him out of trouble yeah he loved being part of a team it literally shaped who he is he did go and play in college which is a big deal but he still does these things now they're just in a different way and it wasn't like he had to play in the MLB or nothing. And so I think those type of things, of course we have to, and again, I think this is something I've probably heard you say, or you would say that we do have to let them come up with that journey on their own.

1:00:55But it also like full circle again is like this fun right now of having this, having the kids at the age they are, at least my older one, where I can share like the wisdom, quote unquote, or the things that have made sense or the patterns that maybe I was disappointed with, but like now I look at them in a different way. And so there's this like, he may not fully get that yet and he's still gonna go through what he goes through, but there's this seed that's planted already because we've talked about it. We've shared about it. His dad has like, again, just back to, I truly feel for me an optimistic parenting.

1:01:32I don't always get it right. And again, I am not the most optimistic. My kids are so much more optimistic than I am. I think that's true for many people, kids. But again, in my whole family, not as optimistic. I'm not as optimistic. But communicating and sharing and being transparent about the whole human experience and allowing them to see our full range of emotion is so important. I think right before I had kids and even when I had kids, so in my like 30s, I feel like anytime I was struggling, my family or people close to me with the best intention used to always sort of throw back what I do and what I study in my face and be like, what do you mean?

1:02:14Like, how could you be going through a hard time? You should get this figured out. Like you're the expert in this. Oh, as if, if you're an expert in optimism, you can't have a bad day. Yes. Like it was such a pattern. And it's also why I think I'm so passionate about describing what optimism actually is because I'm like, wait a second, guys. And I'm someone that has always felt. I mean, I talk about it in my book too. When the Titanic came out, I didn't go to school for two weeks. I could, I mean, like I just, it wrecked me. And now like, because this is what I do, which makes perfect sense to me now to be told that you can't have a bad day or that it's off brand is not something I ever want.

1:02:59I mean, not that I even can hide it. I could never. I think in the last few years, it was freeing to me to know that I could do what I'm doing. I always shied away from the idea of being a psychologist or even publicly talking about anything because I thought you had to be like the poster person for it or someone's guru. Yeah. And that's just so not me. Like the only way I can do it and feel passionate and still keep going is if I can be me and me is messy, man. And I think there is, you know, obviously I'm, I think I'm mature in some ways enough. And my husband and I are a good team that we don't share everything with our children, but they do see, they've probably seen every emotion on, you know, the spectrum that each of us have gone through and also how we come out the other side and how we've navigated through it or repaired through it.

1:03:52I think that is an important piece that we can't overlook. And that I always say, optimism's not built from the moments that you're feeling complete bliss. It really is from the perseverance through navigating through emotion. And it's not even about happiness. And it's not about achieving sort of a struggle-free, worry-free, blissful, content place. It's knowing that there will be darkness, but it's knowing how to see in it.

1:04:48a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.