In short
Podcast Episode Summary: Raising Good Humans
Episode Title The Stories We Tell Ourselves and How To Let Go Of The Ones That Don’t Serve Us w/ Elise Loehnen
Podcast Overview Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman Guest: Elise Loehnen, NY Times bestselling author and host of the Pulling The Thread Podcast. Focus: This episode explores the narratives surrounding women's roles in society and how these affect their lives, especially during major transitions like motherhood.
Key Concepts Discussed
Cultural Narratives and Gender Roles
- Women are conditioned to be good, selfless, and agreeable.
- The concept of "goodness" is often externally defined, leading to a heavy burden for women to carry.
- Societal expectations create a dichotomy between power (often ascribed to men) and goodness (often ascribed to women).
- Elise discusses the seven deadly sins as a parallel to the societal expectations placed on women, highlighting how they feel the need to suppress emotions like anger, pride, and desire.
Over-Functioning and Self-Sacrifice
- Many women feel compelled to over-function, putting others' needs before their own.
- This behavior often leads to unsustainable outcomes, especially in parenting and relationships.
- Dr. Pressman emphasizes that mothers often fall into the drama triangle of victim, villain, and hero, which can be detrimental to their mental health and family dynamics.
Facts vs. Stories
- Fact: An undeniable truth, something that can be observed (e.g., a partner not acknowledging you when they come home).
- Story: The narrative created around that fact, often filled with assumptions and emotions.
- Identifying the difference between feelings (how one feels) and facts (what actually happened) is crucial for healthy communication and emotional regulation.
Tools for Change
- Participants are encouraged to identify their narratives, understand their origins, and assess whether they serve their current lives.
- A process of reclaiming one’s narratives; acknowledging them as tools for survival but choosing to modify or let them go.
- Practical exercises are suggested, including sharing personal stories with friends or through workshops to facilitate deeper understanding and connection.
The Importance of Asking for Help
- Women often struggle with the societal stigma of asking for support, which can lead to feelings of isolation and overwhelm.
- Dr. Pressman and Loehnen discuss the importance of modeling healthy behavior for children by openly asking for help and support.
The Role of Humor and Connection
- Humor is emphasized as a way to cope with the absurdity of societal expectations.
- The episode encourages listeners to reflect on their experiences with a light-hearted approach, thus fostering better connections with themselves and others.
Key Takeaways
- It’s essential to distinguish between feelings and facts to foster healthier relationships and self-understanding.
- Reclaiming narratives about oneself can empower individuals to live authentically.
- Support networks are vital; asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness.
- Recognizing the absurdities of societal expectations can relieve some of the pressures of motherhood and womanhood.
Conclusion This episode offers valuable insights into the complexities of societal narratives surrounding women, especially in the context of motherhood. By fostering awareness of these stories and encouraging open discussion, Dr. Pressman and Elise Loehnen aim to empower listeners to embrace their authentic selves.
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*For parenting tips and ongoing support, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Dr. Aliza Pressman’s newsletter and follow her on Instagram.*
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00The following podcast is a Dear Media Media Production.
0:08welcome to raising good humans podcast i'm dr eliza pressman and okay i just want to send love out there because i know it's just that time of year um today we're talking about how to actually distinguish between feelings and facts and the stories that we tell ourselves and how to let go of the ones that don't serve us. I'm so excited to share this conversation with you because it's with a really, really dear friend of mine. And as always, keep reaching out to me on Instagram. You know, I've got my free Substack newsletter, drlizapressman.substack.com and the whole thing. Also, we are doing one final Zoom live Q &A kind of office hours parent group next week.
1:00So if you're not a member of my sub stack, hop on and join me. And I can't wait to see you. I think people like to confess things to me. Oh yes. It's so true. That is so true. You're a little bit of a witch. It's true. Oh God. Oh, by the way, this is how I wanted to start this episode. Yep. And I don't know where it will go. Okay. I know one thing. Through this episode, I will release one story that I didn't realize I told myself because selfishly, I feel like that would make my day better. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I loved that you wrote in the, what is it called? When you dedicate a book, a dedication.
1:49Yes. I loved what you wrote because it, to me, brings it back to parenting, which is sort of where I always come back to and forgive the use of the word. But can you just say what you said in your dedication? Yeah, I'll paraphrase. But it was essentially, since I wrote it with Courtney, we have five kids amongst us and it was to our children so that they are free from our stories and can tell their own. I just love that. Thank you. So given that, can you just first give a little bit of background for those of us, not me, but anybody here who has not read your first book, your beautiful, beautiful book, and now this workbook that's coming as a companion, just to sort of frame all of it.
2:36Yeah. So my first book under my own name, because I'm a career ghostwriter, which is a big part of my own story, is called On Our Best Behavior. And essentially, it's an exploration of the way that our culture programs women for quote unquote goodness. And I'm using quotes because I'm not talking about sort of that internal idea of goodness, but goodness that's external, that's mediated by professors and parents and judges and priests. and men meanwhile are conditioned for power. There's really nothing worse for a man than to be considered feminine or weak. But this idea of being good is a really heavy and pernicious and invisible load for women to be a good mother and a good coworker and a good friend and so on and so forth.
3:27And we perform this goodness ritually in a way that I don't think we're necessarily conscious of. But tell me if this relates. A good woman is never tired. A good woman puts her own wants, subjugates her wants to other people's needs. In fact, she probably doesn't even have any wants at all or have any wants that she could overtly express. A good woman wants no praise or affirmation or attention. A good woman has a body that is compliant and disciplined and ideally as small as possible. A good woman doesn't talk about money. She thinks money is base and unspiritual and really not for her. A good woman is sexy, but not sexual, desirable, but not desiring.
4:22And a good woman is not angry about any of this. And if that resonates with you as it does for me, then I have just given you a list of the seven deadly sins, which are sloth, envy, pride, gluttony, greed, lust, and anger. Yeah. So there are ones that pull more of a thread for me, which is actually, I didn't even do that on purpose, but you have a podcast called Pulling the Thread. Yeah. And there are some that pull more than others for me and for each of us, I'm sure. But overall, it's like it. I will say, like, when I first read your book, I was like, well, I'm not. I enjoy these, if that makes sense.
5:10Like, I'm I'm not it's this isn't about me in particular, because I actually embody sort of a more natural goodness. Yes, 100%. But I think it's fascinating from like a socio-cultural like observation or anthropological study. Yeah. But it has nothing to do with me. And then over time, just from talking to you and also just becoming more of who I am. Yes. It turns out there are some that are particularly salient for me. Yes. But all of them are. They all resonate. All of them. Yeah. It's a bit like quicksand. there's a lot of people who approach the book and are like I don't have any money problems and I'm sex is not an issue for me and then as they read the book I hear heard this all the time I wasn't going to read the chapter on lust or I wasn't going to read the chapter on greed and then I realized oh yeah these stories are in me too I mean a very like the most specific example was like the money one I was like that one I don't even I don't need to worry about and I'm still at this age, like I, I feel like so guilty charging for my work because I'm like, but what I'm doing is of service and it negates the service if I charge, but I'm like charged because it's otherwise it's not work, but I feel terrible.
6:38And when people say the thing of like, well, we're not paying for this because people, you know, this is such an important topic. People are dedicating their time, I'm like, of course, I will, of course, I'll volunteer my time. And it happens so often. Isn't that so interesting? Yes. And I'm like, oh my God. I have this too. Many of us do. The money one was like a big one. Yes. But I thought it was like that one I can skip. Oh, a hundred percent. I also, one of my stories about money is that if I accept payment from someone, then they own me. I don't know how to sort of deliver what's requested.
7:16I only know how to over deliver and then still feel bad about it or then to like have resentment at the way that I've over delivered. I have so many money stories and I've just had to pick them off, catch myself, pick them off one by one. And what I think is not to say that men don't have their own stories. But today that's not what we're talking about. That's not what we're talking about. But it's also their stories are not about not charging. When you hear about healers, anyone who wants to be of service I put myself in this camp and charging and money when I have this conversation with men the look it's like the sideways what it just doesn't occur to them yeah whereas women are like how do I negate my own value and how dare I think I should deserve this or it's just rampant there's it's such a big topic and I because I have two daughters I have a stepdaughter too and a stepson, but my two daughters who see me sort of grow over time work-wise and they're getting older and sort of making observations, they started asking me like, if I'm traveling, like for work, why am I traveling and how much am I making and things that I used to like not want to talk to them about because I thought it was icky and not something they should know about.
8:35But then I started to think, what message am I giving them? Yeah. And why can't I just say like, this is how I share my work. And also this is my livelihood. And also this is like we can talk about money as like a concrete thing. It doesn't have to be a weird topic. Well, money is inherently neutral. We just ascribe a lot of feelings to it. And for a lot of women, the stories are around scarcity. There's not enough. If I get more, someone else will get less. I think women are so relational too that there's this fear. All of our stories are on top of an underlying fear, fear of loss of safety and security, fear of loss of control, fear of loss of approval.
9:22And so there's something I think for many of us where if I make more than other people, I'm out here alone. And my compensation needs to be relational. It needs, particularly for those who work in a company, right? Right. It's so intense for women. And I'm glad you mentioned your kids. And I only have sons. So it'll be interesting. It'll be a different experience. But my money stories really came from my mom, who grew up in scarcity, oldest of seven kids. and she went on Donahue when I was a kid, which is so weird because I grew up in Missoula, Montana. That is very weird. Yeah, it was like a family friend in San Francisco was like, I know someone who has fear of becoming a bag lady.
10:06Like they were doing a whole thing with Gloria Steinem. Oh, wow. And this was such a pronounced anxiety for my mother that this woman in San Francisco knew about it. And so my mom was flown to Chicago, I think, to do Phil Donahue with Gloria Steinem and to talk about her fear of becoming a bag lady. So that was like one of the baseline stories of my childhood was this anticipatory anxiety that my mom carried that she would be, you know, shuffling around without a home and her belongings in a bag. And so when, when you. Which is, that's a lot, not totally rational, But yes, yeah. But that really infected my mind.
10:50Right. So that's what I was going to say. What I think is important here in the context of thinking about what we think about so much is just raising our kids and figuring out what we're doing with ourselves is like, we don't have to, we can't really do anything with our kids. We just have to deal with these stories in order to have proper, authentic conversations with our kids about any of this or non-conversations just in living our lives. And so when you think about like your conversations or modeling or thoughts around money, for example, do you see a difference in your approach since you've kind of worked through all of these stories?
11:33And this was before I wrote the book, but the pattern was visible to me as a child and the fear that my mom would, and my father, I grew up in Missoula, Montana. My father is a physician. My mom ran his office. And so I grew up in an upper middle class, particularly in a place like Montana, like the high, you know, to be a doctor or a lawyer was sort of the ultimate. it. There wasn't the same financial inequity that we experience today. So I had a nice childhood, you know, with access to extracurriculars and education and all of that. Nothing grand, but nice. And my mom would just, I remember throughout my childhood, this sort of rubber band because she was very generous.
12:19And then she would be like, I can't get a latte, you know I can't afford it and so that was what I would hear through like this boom and bust fabrication that wasn't really predicated on anything in reality and so I would do that to my now husband we would go out for dinner this is in my early 20s and I we would go out for a nice dinner and then I would be like frantic like we I can't we can't afford it we can't you know just kind of psychotic. And he would say like, whoa, that was your idea. And what's happening? And so I did a fair amount of therapy just to catch myself in that story. I wouldn't have had that language, but to manage the anxiety that would come when I felt like I had over spent or overextended myself and recognizing, oh, this is my mom's life playing out in my own behavior right now and I can just catch it instead of like freaking out at my husband and not really sued the pattern.
13:22And, but it's one of the things that's like so conscious for me that I'm, I, I catch myself doing it where I'm like, let's go on vacation. And then I have to know I'm going to have to contend with the anxiety that in the aftermath. Like what have we done? Yeah. Yeah. And I have certain sort of ways to talk to myself to calm myself down. But again, it's not rational. I will always live within my means. I was trained in that way to live well within my means. But that's so persistent for me that I'm still working. And I don't want to do that to my kids. So to use your tools, the facts. Yes. Okay.
14:01Versus the stories. Yeah. So the tools. So essentially what happened is the book came out and it's essentially about, I sort of act as a cultural therapist. Although I say one of my big stories is I'm not an expert. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a professor. I'm not a theologian. All the things, right? I can tell you all the things I'm not. and so when I was taking the book out into the world everyone you know what I felt like I was doing was exposing something that's that was invisible and then once you see it you're like this is so obvious right but yet nobody had named it in that way but that's once you see it you can't unsee it and so the feedback was okay now I know that this is happening what do I do right and so So my editor asked me to do a workbook and because I'm not a therapist and I didn't want to do sort of the here's a bunch of empty pages and some really good question prompts.
14:56Go journal. Yeah. I wanted to bring people through an actual process that would change their life in a small but significant way. I partnered with a friend who's an incredible coach who I use as a coach. And we created this process of taking figuring out what your stories are. Because many of us are just running them on a loop or we've picked them up from the culture, from our parents. Yeah. And then once you can identify the story, then there's a whole series of tools where you understand why you have the story, the ways in which it's helped you or kept you safe or kept you from the underlying fear.
15:35And then there's a process of making it really big, giving it a name, creating a persona. So I have a bag lady, Bethy persona and I talk to her in these moments where I feel completely possessed. And then you also, one of my favorite things is, as part of this process is you teach a class to a college, a group of, you know, 18 year old co-eds of women. Yeah. And so I would teach a class on like the back, like how to make sure that you don't end up as a bad lady. Or one of my big stories for sloth is I'm the only one who can do things right. So I should do them all. And so when you're teaching a class to a bunch of unsuspecting 18 year olds and you're like, this is what you do.
16:22You make sure you never delegate. You, you know, only you create like the zone of competency where you keep everything tight. You don't share details, etc. You start seeing your own, for lack of a better word, like subtle insanity. And you it becomes funny. And it also becomes like, this is so dumb. It's a story. It's a story. And then you say you've come up with the next story, which is for me with that one, it's I'm much stronger when I'm supported and I can do the work that really matters when I delegate and accept support. And now for a quick break. Okay. It's really holiday season. We are deep in.
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18:48But we just, you know, I just got married. So I'm still getting used to the fact that I have two dogs. So Rico is a little bit better than Beatrice about soiling the house. I'll be honest, my husband is a better dog trainer. So Beatrice, she's small and she periodically is messy. And so I just want to tell you about the green mitt kit from CleanSafe because it's the easiest way to keep your fabrics looking brand new in five minutes or less. This is a very simple process. You spray the solution, you wipe, you rinse the mitt and repeat. Like it's so easy. The mitt does the cleaning. If you can clean a kitchen counter, you can clean your couch or your rug.
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20:07Just to like go back to being able to state the distinction between the stories and the fact, what was your fact? Okay, so this is really important. And even if you only take this from the workbook, it's such a critical skill. So it's the very first thing that we do is the difference between a fact and a story. With the idea being that most of the things that are stories in our lives, we hold as fact. And a fact is something that is incontrovertible. A feeling can also be a fact, but not the story about why you're having the feeling. But I feel scared is a fact. But mostly they're things that you would catch on a video camera.
20:47Yeah. Right? And then the story, everything else is story. Everything. Culture is a story. Patriarchy is a story. Your whole persona is a story, which is a little scary, but it's true. And so like an easy example in my own life would be, let's say my husband Rob walks into the walks comes home and he doesn't look at me or address me and this is like a pretty frequent occurrence in our house but with my like ADH addled sweet husband who always has his airpods in I can have many make up many stories from this he's angry at me he doesn't love me anymore right he's like irritated he had a bad day he's obviously going to leave me right I mean And once you start doing it, it is funny because you get going and then suddenly you are like in Uzbekistan, you know, where you're like, I don't know how I got here, but I have traveled the ocean.
21:44I do it all the time. We all do. And then you, often in conflict, you are arguing about your stories and asserting them as fact and wanting other people to confirm the fact. And the fact is he just came home listening to his earpods and didn't look at you. The fact is he didn't say hi to me when he came in. Right. That's the fact. Yeah. I do this a lot with my daughter, my younger daughter. She really confuses the story she tells herself with fact. So I often have to say to her, okay, yesterday it happened. She said, dad looked at my paper and he said, it's terrible. And I have to rewrite the whole thing.
22:23So I was like, okay, I'm certain in my head that that is not what happened. But that is the story that she told herself based on whatever feedback he gave her. So I said to her, okay, so that sounds like that's how you felt what actually happened. And then she smirked because she knows that we go through this a lot. And she's like, he said that I should consider restructuring it in a way that makes more sense for what I wanted to get across in this one sliver. like one 20th of the paper. Yeah. So and then none of that was it terrible. And then none of that was it like do everything over again.
23:06This is a disaster. It just happened. He he looked at something she was doing, which is also unusual because she's in high school. But this is regular. This is like a regular conversation, which I'm aware of now because I'm so good at telling myself stories. And I just don't want to, I don't want to watch that happen with my kids without giving them the tools to be able to go back to asking themselves this very question, which people can work on as one of the tools in this journal in a very concrete way that I think I was like, oh, I could just do that. Like I could just nail that skill and feel like a thousand times better about moving through the world.
23:52Yeah. Because that is hard. It's hard. It's the most, I think, the most important tool. And I think for anyone who's listening, who wants to understand it, even going to my husband and saying, hey, when you come in and you don't acknowledge me, I start telling myself stories like you're mad or you want a divorce. Like I, and even just saying it, one is helpful because then suddenly you're talking about something that's not a direct judgment. and they can see your thought process. Yeah. And it creates like enough distance that you can sort of laugh at it without saying like, you didn't say hi to me.
24:30Right. Like what's going on? Like part of it is they're not responsible for your stories, even though in some ways they're at the source of your generation of the stories. For sure. But they don't know what's going on in your mind. No, I mean, I'm learning all of this also in real time being newly married. Yeah. Where I'm like, oh my God, I have such a, I've lived so long with my own, like, I don't, I didn't need to share space with my stories. Yeah, it's tough. It's really hard. And the other thing I think it's really important to say in a big part of the process is to understand, like, that our stories are, keep us safe.
25:07They're highly functional. Often we can look at our lives and say, I did this, I've done this because I carried this story. Like for a lot of women being perfectionistic and hard driving and all of that has been a very useful story, that drive for approval. It's not how I want to continue to live my life at this point. I'm ready to put that story down, sort of Marie Kondo it. Thank you for your service. I want a new pair of socks, you know? But that's such a self-compassionate way of approaching this. So instead of like, listen to my crazy story because I'm such a lunatic, it's a little bit better to think that they have served you.
25:48Yes. But you're ready to let go of some of them. And you would know more about this too. But I think even, and again, getting them out on the page and sometimes that's why also the fact is really helpful, starting with an actual fact and then using it to generate your stories because it does create enough distance that you can then start to look at the story, work with the story. Where did the story come from? Did I pick this up from someone else? Did I pick it up from the culture? How has this story been affirmed to me? Am I ready to let it go? Like in Courtney, when we've done workshops, that's a big thing.
26:23People will come in sometimes with a big story and again, want to assert that it's a fact and they're just not ready to let it go. I have many stories I'm not ready to let go of, but I am ready to acknowledge their stories. I just like them. Yeah. No, I mean, you hear it all the time with, let's say you've suffered a big betrayal and someone's left you and you're just not ready to get out of the maze. Like you're not ready to let this go and move on. So some of it's, you ought to keep the story going for a little longer. But like not to perpetuate the idea of a martyr mother because we want to get away from that.
27:01And also I think it can serve you because it can serve you to do this work so that you actually can really say to yourself, I've got to get, I got to get rid of some of these stories and come to terms with them. I'm not going to if I don't realize how important they are for my kids. Yes. And so, you know, one of my big stories, I'm the only one who can do it right. Therefore, I should do it all, which really shows up in my family life. You're a household of one woman. Yes. One woman, two sons. I do have Vicky, who works with us. Thank God, like our third co-parent. I wrote that she was a throuple, that we weren't a sexless throuple.
27:42I had to take that out because we're really not in a throuple. God, I love her. And anyway, I try to name that because I also don't want a story that I'm doing it all by myself. I have support and excellent support. So yeah, after I wrote on Our Best Behavior, I fell off a horse and broke my neck. And I was fine, miraculously. I needed to wear a brace for four to six weeks. And I was immobilized. and it was so interesting to me. And of course I'm like, oh, I wish this had happened to me so I could use this material in my book. But I couldn't drive. I couldn't do laundry. I couldn't cook. And it was so helpful because I could sit there and type like a broken robot.
28:32But I realized I had so much anxiety because I couldn't do my thing, which was is manage and control and be perfect. although I'm really not perfect. And nobody was complaining. And it was so, it was like, I realized, oh, this call, it's me. My husband is not wondering what well-balanced meal we're serving for dinner or whether the house is perfectly clean. He doesn't notice, he doesn't care, and he doesn't compel it. It's me. It's all self-generated. And so it was really interesting to have that experience. And Courtney, my co-author, had a similar experience where she, and she called this persona the lizard.
29:17She wasn't, she had broken her foot. And her kids were like, I like this, I like the lizard so much more than mom. Because she was not micromanaging, controlling, and performing again, which I think we all feel compelled to do, this idea of what a, what a good mom does. I think those are really good moments, I guess, anytime we've had to stop without choosing to stop, it is a really good opportunity to find out that it turns out that the really good mother that we are was... Yeah. You get to see what you're up to. And it's startling because I think before that point, I was still carrying a lot of anger at my partner for the lack of equity in our relationship, which I also engineer because let me tell you, if the school calls, yeah, I'm in there.
30:14Like if I gave more than 10 minutes to respond to an email, sure, maybe he'd have a fighting chance, but I am so insistent. I have been so insistent on the story that I'm the only one who can do it right. Yeah. That I don't delegate to him. I don't give him a chance. And I've created this pattern to affirm my story so it can be true. And then when I go to the fear, what's my fear here? my fear is well who would want me if I'm not useful it's that it gets that I know that's but true I'm like I have a story that everyone is in relationship with me because I'm so helpful and useful and supportive and all the things that I do for them yeah that's the fear and that's what I really need to or have done a lot of work on but continue to do work on so I can let this other story go, just calm down with my over-functioning.
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31:10I just took that to a really sad place, but that's the truth. No, I'm just, it's so, it is so true. I bet so many mothers in particular, that is exactly the fear. Yeah. Who, who would, who am I without playing this role and doing it so well? Who would want to, who wants me around? Oh, I'm feeling that so much right now because my daughter just graduated. Yeah. And I'm like, could not be more in a place of like, what are things that she definitely won't think to do? Well, yeah. And this, you know, the really sad reality, I remember going to this mom's group with this woman named Tandy on the West side after I had my first and a mom in the group.
31:53Meanwhile, I had gone back to work at like six weeks because, you know, that's the amount of leave you get with pay. And this mom hadn't left her our baby for more than like 30 minutes and was like in a little bit of a, in one of those spaces. And Tandy said, I want you to think about your childhood and think about your happiest memories. My guess is that most of your memories when you're happiest as a child are like you running through nature by yourself or with your friends and your parents are nowhere to be seen. And it really stuck with me because that was my reality. I mean, I love my parents, but that was my reality.
32:36And so it's hard, I think, to accept. My oldest is 12 and he's going to sleepaway camp this summer. His choice. And I keep finding myself trying to talk him out of it. And even though I recognize it's so good for him, but I am like, how can you? I'm so useful. I'm like, I'm so useful to you. How are you going to function without me? Yeah. And that's another story. But these are good stories to work through sooner rather than later because it does. It is hard when they're like leaving the house if you haven't figured this out. The best part is three weeks. And I was like, this is are you sure you want to do this?
33:21You know, just going through it again. Yes, mom, I want. The best part is it's a Christian camp and then is going to Jewish day school next year. I'm like, this is perfect. the New Testament, then some Torah. Like, I don't think he realizes he's going to be reading bits of scripture. Fascinating. Fascinating. It's the camp that his dad went to. But in trying to sort of, so I was like, this is 21 days, you know, and he's like, mom, you get on plane, you go to Australia like twice a year for essentially two weeks. I think you'll be fine. And I was like, all right, I leave you all the time. You know how to do this.
33:59Yeah. But he doesn't leave me. Right. You don't get to be the center of their lives after a certain point. Certainly not. It's really tough. It is really tough. Also, coming to terms with the fact that you can be deeply loved without being the center, which is what happens between early childhood and later childhood, it's like a really urgent story to get rid of because otherwise you cannot allow for the growth for your kids. It is. Particularly, it's hard. And I think I am, I don't know if it'll be different having sons, but I think for girls and women, and this is Carol Gilligan's work, But there's so much anxiety already in the culture around individuation and growth, right?
34:48This idea that women and girls are sort of the feminine is all about relationship and care and nurturance and being together and that separate to risk separation is like a type of death. Meanwhile, when we push boys, you're only supposed to be about growth and individuation. They don't know that they're also supposed to come home. I know, figuring it out is really hard for both of them. And it's part of being a fully human person. I do think there is a different kind of feeling, my friends who have sons graduating, that they're really thinking about, like, I know what happens when sons leave. Yeah.
35:34Like, it's different. Which is just, it's its own, let's just be depressed. I know. But how much of it is, it's interesting. But how much is culture versus nature? And I think so much of it is a culture of, don't leave me, you'll be killed. Right. Yeah. And now for a quick break. Okay. I don't even need to do this ad because you guys know how good skims is. Do I really need to tell you, but it's so awesome. And I've been a skims fanatic since skims emerged, but I want to tell you specifically that they have a fits everybody collection. That is awesome. So if you're getting presents for teenagers or for yourself, go get the fits everybody collection.
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38:28Anyway, do it however you do it, but go to sax.com because you'll find stuff. Saks Fifth Avenue has everything from presents to yourself that are elegant and elevated to cute things for young people to chic gifts for your man, whatever. They've got it all. In fact, I got to go because I have to get back to my shopping online. I'm that person. So other tools from this journal, which I just think they're so concrete and it's just like facts, stories, figuring out the story, then moving it along the process. Yeah. It is very, these are very, I mean, they're not simple and that you're thinking about hard stuff.
39:16No, but it's simple. But it's simple and doable. And it's like when people say, like psychologists often say that you sort of need to come to terms with your own story in order to develop these healthy relationships with your kids. But how you do that is like very ambiguous. Yeah. And this is very concrete, very concrete. And it's quite fast. And the thing that's amazing about the process is that we have a, you do it again and again for each sin. And then at the end of each sin, we have these shift moves, which are specific to lust or gluttony or envy, you know, wanting exercises and getting more into projection for envy, for example.
40:03and some of the research around bodies and love for gluttony, you know, compliment, like bringing more attention to your body doesn't necessarily help, but recognizing all the things that your body does for you can. Yeah. As one small example. But once you do this process and it's sort of in you, you can just do it over and over again because we are onions and you will deal with the story and another one, the deeper one continues to pop up. But even the simple facts versus stories, we did a workshop in New York recently for 45 minutes and you can do it with a friend and you can do it with a stranger and you break up into a pair and for 60 seconds you go and then the other person goes and you essentially do this story generation off of a fact.
40:53And you say, essentially, someone asks you, tell me a fact about you. And then you say the fact. Now tell me a story that you make up about that fact. And then you do it. And then they thank you. They're not allowed to offer any advice. No advice, no fixing, which is very difficult. You're like, I could fix this. Yeah. And you just keep going. And it's amazing what comes up once you get your sort of subconscious or your unconscious going and how deeply you can come to know someone else in the span of 60 seconds. And as we just mentioned, also this tendency, like as soon as you feel discomfort with what someone is telling you to like comfort, console, coach, refute, commiserate.
41:40It's a really interesting process. It's also just, this is like either a good habit or an annoying habit. That's the story I'm telling myself. But it's also a really good, it's good training for how to be there for our kids when they tell us anything. Yeah. But I think we should do it right now. Yeah, let's do it. Do you want to do a story? Yeah. Okay. Wait for then, I can't think of one. Tell me a story about your job, about your profession, about your expertise. Okay. Yeah. I feel like because you know me, that was a hard one. or tell me a fact and then tell me a story that you make up about that fact.
42:21Okay. A fact is I am a developmental psychologist and a story is that if I share expertise, I'm making everybody feel so awful and I have too much audacity to suggest that I have expertise. So I should probably be careful. That's a big story. I understand that story. I feel like it's part of any, it's part of my chapter on pride. And what's the fear that comes up for you when you are in that story with someone? You know, when you said fear before, I didn't mention that third part, a fact story. What's the fear? I was thinking, oh, that's the really hard part. Yeah. The fear. What is my fear? Is it fear of loss of approval?
43:12Is it that you're worried someone will judge you and dislike you based on what you say? Yeah, it probably is. Yeah. Because otherwise, why would I care so much? Yeah. What are some of the criticisms that you get when you're in that story? Like when you offer advice to someone in terms of when you center that fear, what are you saying that they don't like? I think there are two parts of it. One, and they're kind of inconsistent, constant which is one is the fear that they're thinking who do you think you are but the other is the fear that I'm going to be like the people that I'm thinking who do you think you are yeah yeah well the who do you think you are is huge I mean this goes again back to and I want to come back to your story but in honor best behavior in the pride chapter essentially it's about the playbook and the way that we execute women who are visible yes dare to be seen again who distinguish themselves from the group.
44:10Oh, it sounds awful. They say like, I actually do know more about this. Yeah. Because I've spent, I don't know how long it took you to get your PhD. Seven years. Yeah. And we do it primarily, most visibly to celebrities and female founders and anyone who's famous in some capacity, but it's a playbook and we've all imbibed it and we all participate in it, putting people back in their place. Who does she think she is? Often because it inspires our envy, by the way. Why her and not me? And I want that thing that she has, even though we, often this isn't conscious. We can't recognize that that's actually what's happening.
44:47Right. But, oh, I get it. I worry, you know, in that, in that as like a marketing, former marketing media content person, exec, who has a ton of experience in that space, including with books and building platforms for people. Whenever I speak the truth, there's this anxiety that comes up after, well, you could be wrong and who am I to crush someone's dreams? And which is also a story, right? Of like - Your word is going to crush their dreams. My word is going to crush their dreams and my word carries so much weight that I will stop them from doing whatever it is that they intend to do. Yeah. And or my word is some sort of spell or incantation that will generate the result.
45:36You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So now you tell me a fact. That's in the, should we do the same family? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of my facts, so a fact is. In the pride. Yeah. I'm, I am an author. A story that I make up about, I have so many stories. So I'll just give you a bunch of my stories. I need to, in this world, create enough of a presence or platform for myself that I can sell books in order to support myself. Otherwise, I need to go and enslave myself in a corporation. I need to, as an author, I need to draw attention to myself in order to be a viable writer. And that's very dangerous.
46:22if I draw too much attention to myself I'll be destroyed is a big story for me I have a big story about if I gain too much influence people will do what I say and I'll be more of a cult leader than a thought leader yeah because all I want is for people to self author their own lives and figure things out for themselves yeah and so part of me is like you can I can give you some tools and some insight, but you ought to do this work yourself, which is true. But I worry about projection. That's a big story for me. And people giving me too much power. Again, some of these are cuckoo. You know what, though?
47:09I was actually thinking the opposite, but that's probably because I tell myself a lot of the same stories. I was thinking, you know, a lot of these stories as a woman are like they're so there's you feel how real they feel yes existential so then it's really hard when you're when the stories sound ridiculous it's easier I think yeah but when the stories are like I mean yeah it's true you do want someone to author their own lives I do want a parent to feel autonomous in their parenting and not dependent and also I want to provide support tools, whatever, right? It's not that dissimilar. And it's not not a risk that if you go too far, you could move into a category of...
47:57What I would say about you, and just one of the many reasons why I love you so deeply and so many people love you, is that there's nothing about you that's cultivating. You're not a guru. No, I'm not. And you're not trying to create, you're not trying to hook people on sort of a guru status. Do what I say. Follow this script. I'm going to dictate exactly how you maneuver through this encounter in order to get the outcome that you want. If anything, that's antithetical to what you stand for in the world, which is like, let's all take a deep breath. And here's what we know. And we're mostly going to get it right.
48:35And we're going to fumble a lot. And anxiety about messing it up is probably more detrimental to your relationship with your child and your own mental health than it is to any potential outcome. Yeah. Yeah. And could have been my ghostwriter. Could you write a book for me? So, okay. So you could say in that sense, oh, well, it's because I have this big story. That's what's keeping me safe. Like absent the story, I would be some runaway, renegade, you know, developmental psychologist. I don't think that's true, but that's part of the process is then saying, is this, I see why I have this story to keep my ego in check.
49:20And it's part of my personality and it felt important and it served a purpose. And now maybe I'm ready to have less anxiety about speaking up and sharing what I know. And I actually know a lot. And that's been my experience in the last even few years where I'm like, I'm not actually a precocious teenager anymore. I've lived a bit. You don't have to hide these things anymore. Yeah, I have some wisdom. So is there a practice where you kind of could or should take a story to its extreme where you can look at this sort of, if it's feeling too reasonable, like if your story sounds too reasonable, it's not fact, but it's definitely possible fact.
49:59Is there a benefit to sort of stretching it further and further? Yes. That's where I would, like, in part of the process, us like, okay, teach us a class on your story. Tell us how to make sure that the story is affirmed and true. And so tell us what we need to do to make sure that we're not overexpressing our own expertise. Right. And so I'm sure in that class, maybe you're like fooling it with disclaimers. Yes. A million disclaimers. A million disclaimers. And you're doing a big dance so that people don't think you're too full of yourself. Right. Right? And when you do it, when you make it really big, if you go out and you...
50:39And the idea of this workbook is like, you can do it to the bathroom mirror. I think you should do it with a group of friends because it's really funny. That's a great idea. And also what a great way for a bunch of women to get together and connect. Connect, do some really deep work, laugh, reflect back to each other. because part of it is having an audience and just sort of seeing what you're up to and making it so big that you're like, that's hilarious, but I do all of these things. So like when I teach a class on, let's say I'm going to teach a class right now on don't draw too much attention to yourself so that you don't get canceled.
51:16It's like, okay, so you obviously, your livelihood depends on people listening to your podcast. However, you just want to make sure that you do really low grade, low fi assets. like no makeup, crappy camera work, because you don't want people to think that you're too self-evolved. Yeah, like just so you do all the work, but then undermine your own marketing capacity so that you look humble and you look approachable and you look relatable. And therefore your clips are probably not going to get watched or picked up, but that's okay because yes, you're doing this for your livelihood, but you don't want anyone to think that you think you're so such hot shit.
52:00Right. That's more important. And so make sure that you are undermining yourself at every step of the process to make sure that you don't meet your goal. Or if you meet your goal, you only meet it in like the most understated, humble way. And people are appreciating you for your humility while loving you. and just hope and pray that that works in today's social media environment where everyone doesn't work yeah doing like incredibly beautifully produced talk shows right but your crappy bedroom definitely is better for your own ego and your own safety so that would be like that would be your class yeah and I could keep going about all the other things that you do but you start to see like this is ridiculous like why do a podcast that you don't want anyone to you don't want anyone to you don't really want to allow yourself to get big enough to get destroyed right you'll just keep it so small that maybe there's no point in doing it in the first place I did notice a video that you did the other day where you had red lipstick on you loved it and I loved it I was like thank you thank you for taking the time to put lipstick on before you spoke to me.
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56:04Doesn't have to be with things, but if you are going to get things, these are fun things to get. Visit KendraScott.com slash gifts and use the code RGH20 at checkout for 20 % off one full price jewelry item. Exclusions do apply. It expires December 31st, 2025. That's K-E-N-D-R-A-S-C-O-T-T dot com slash gifts. And the code is RGH20. I do think there was an exercise in writing a book and publishing a book and promoting a book and having to do the thing that is so frankly humiliating, which is ask other women for help. And it was so cool that every woman I asked was like, and didn't ask, yourself included, was like, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be supportive of you.
57:00Like it's our pleasure as women to do things for each other. But the story, I think, has not been that. It's been, you know, let's not let's like if I lift you, it will dim me. Yes. It gets into scarcity big time. If you get this and I don't get this. If people if I have you on my podcast, people are going to not listen to pulling the thread. They're going to go and listen to Raising Good Humans because there are only so many listening hours available. Yeah. Men are not governed by this way at all. and they are benefit tremendously from supporting each other. It's just not part of their psychology, but for women, it is intense.
57:39And to go to your, this idea of wanting, this is a big thing, I think, is that we want support, but we don't know how to ask for it. And we're worried that we're sort of putting people out or putting them in an uncomfortable position. And we want them to see what we want and to address the want without needing to be asked. And so we put all of our wanting into covert form. You see this a lot in our circles and just women sort of out there in the world. It's this, I don't want to call it manipulative because it's not conscious, I think, but it's this like, oh, I'll just go and try and do things for this person so that they'll reciprocate.
58:22And so you're doing this sort of covert campaign instead of even asking. I also think it's helpful just thinking about last week, just like asking a mom to give a ride to my daughter because I had to be in another place and there was no one else to pick her up. and I was like, this is so crazy how just that feels like I am asking for the moon and I offered like, for this ride, I will do 10 rides. Isn't that interesting? It was so bizarre, but at the same time, if I can be helpful to someone, I feel so good. I'm like, I am a hero. Of course I'll give your kid a ride. I'm so excited to hang out with them.
59:14But like the idea of asking for that felt like it was both asking too much and also like undermining my parent skill. Yeah. Which is so silly. What I've found, I don't know if this has happened to you, but I've found other parents in the, like, what they tend to do or what I've noticed sometimes happening is that they make it the kid's idea. Instead of just saying, hey, can you help us out? Like, we don't have any childcare. Can our child go home with you? Yeah. They'll say, oh, I heard that, you know, the kids want this play date at your house. it's not weird but I think it again it goes to the same thing of I can't just I'm too ashamed to just say hey I'm gonna bind can you which would be much more compelling to me oh yeah because then you get to help someone in a bind to help someone yeah rather than what yeah I think this is just an offering to mothers listening just ask just ask it's really hard but the more we practice and the more we're really transparent with each other.
1:00:26I think it's affirming and good for all of us. Also ask in front of your kids, like I was thinking, how are they supposed, some of the things I think about as my daughter's going off to be in the world is like, will she know when to ask or will she think, oh, you're supposed to have it all together and to ask for help is going to somehow diminish your amazing accomplishments? No, I think that that's what we model for our kids largely. And meanwhile, I feel like men, not to speak in really broad strokes, but there's just not the same anxiety at all about both asking and expecting assistance and support.
1:01:05No, that is, it's mesmerizing to me. It's so true. May we all operate more like men who have no compunction at all about putting people out in a way that's like sometimes fine, you know? No, I think it's amazing. I think it's, I think of just like a dad. And again, of course, these are sweeping generalizations, but let's just enjoy them. I mean, why not? It's so fun. Also, like I want to speak to all parents and caregivers, but 95 % of the people listening are mothers. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So I'm so excited that there are dads listening and other caregivers, but I also want to honor the fact that 95 % of the people listening are living this experience.
1:01:53But when a dad, and by the way, my husband is a widower, so he has had to experience both roles and he had to ask for help constantly. And it is such a pleasure for people to help him, but it's such a different thing because he was a father who experienced the loss of the mother. And so it's just a very different kind of asking for help and giving help and all of that. But wait, what was my point of these sweeping generalizations? Oh, that if a man, and again, I just used an example of a man who doesn't have, who's always the guy doing it by himself. But most of the time, if a man like has the day with their child, they're like, of course, going to ask people to do things.
1:02:55Yes. And that's just like a given. And also people are offering it. This is more, you know, true for younger kids. But I just think, you know, if you were going away for the weekend, I feel like many people would figure out all the different things that need to happen to help your husband. I don't really know if this is true about you guys specifically, but generally speaking. Whereas if he were going away for the weekend, it's another day in your life. It's not, the people aren't like, how will you do this? How will you survive? No, my husband is, we both are very familiar with DoorDash and he's even more introverted than I am.
1:03:33But my dad, even when my mom goes away now, my dad, it's like the invitations for dinner stacked up and sort of essentially adult play dates because my dad does not like being, yeah, he doesn't like to be alone. And he set some of them up. And I think my mom is like, I'll be out of town. Can you take Paul to a movie? I mean, he's not incapacitated in any way, but invariably his social schedule is locked by my mom. So I think this is, it is part of it. I was thinking about it too, like the context of asking for help is I think that so often we're stopped and there's some stuff in the workbook about this too, both on both sides.
1:04:19We're so, we're stopped because we're terrified of hearing no. And we also are, at least I'll speak for myself here. I'm, I'm terrible at saying no. I'm deeply. I'm really good at saying no. Oh, you are? In case you want some inspiration. Well, I include a bunch of scripts in the book for how to practice saying no. Give us a couple scripts in the book. This sounds amazing and I would love, please hit me up in the future, but unfortunately I can't, unfortunately I won't be able to make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me. This sounds like a really amazing project. Unfortunately, I'm overcommitted, so I need to decline.
1:04:55Oh, it would be another nice one that's slightly different. Even just like, oh, I wish I could help, but unfortunately I'm obligated elsewhere. but thank you. Thank you for thinking of me. I'm just laughing because my best friend, Dana, every time I get a request of any kind that I can't do or like an invitation or whatever, a lot of times, not every time, but a lot of times she will be getting, I know she's getting the same one. Yeah. Particularly if it's a social thing or whatever. And I'll, after I say no, not that I'm like walking around the world saying no all the time but just I don't have the chip in me that's like chewing my nails over having to say no because I know that it's probably because to say yes would take away from something with my kids or something that I had already planned on doing or whatever so I forwarded her I forward her every time my no so she can copy it know so she can feel like the shame that she won't do it like I know she's gonna say yes no matter what isn't that so interesting I just think we just have this fun thing and she's like she's like I just want to have that for a day like I just want to be able to say that for a day but it's just like too hard for her to imagine that other people might be disappointed in her she's just so she's a better person than I am no but she's just overriding her own internal GPA yes.
1:06:27And a big part, I think, of growing up or ideally is where we can get to a point where we can even bring our bodies into the equation and run it through your body. Is this a yes for me or is this a no? Yeah. When I think about doing this thing that I'm feeling compelled to do, either by social pressure or because maybe it's a good thing for my career. Yeah. Am I going to want to do this next week? And even just building in a pause because I used to be her and just immediately. Sure. Of course. You'll figure out how to make it work, even if you have no time. Yeah. And I'll just reflexively say yes.
1:07:02And a lot of things sound fun and interesting in the moment. Of course. Yeah. But I now I mandate for myself for anything that's a significant request, 24 hours. That is a great habit. Yeah. I probably should mandate that for myself because I'm inclined. I'm so panicked that I will overextend because that was a very bad habit of mine that I will, my default is to say no. And I probably should go, I should give myself 24 hours because I might miss opportunities that would have been really delightful. Maybe, but maybe you're just protecting yourself. But how is it so easy? Where did you learn to say no?
1:07:40How did you, that's counter-cultural. I know, I didn't even notice except that both my husband and my best friend are like, that is the weirdest superpower. And it's not that I do it, it's that I don't feel anything afterwards. Like I don't have that, like they would both go into such a shame spiral that it wouldn't be worth saying no, even if they save themselves the time or energy or effort. By the way, I'm not saying this so that people don't ask me anything. I don't want to be like a lone sad sack who's just like saying no everywhere. But it's just because I also say yes quite a bit. It's just, I don't know why.
1:08:19I think if I really, if I really unpack it, it's that my father always said yes, but he very often felt no. Not only felt no, but didn't follow through. Oh, yes. Like he so couldn't say no, even though the answer was no, that he would just say yes, but then not follow through, which was so disappointing. And I think that's probably, I hadn't thought about it before, but I think I'm like, I would rather say no now than disappoint at the 11th hour. That's beautiful, actually. But that's an interesting story in a helpful way. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I, my mom, my parents are so like you commit and then you do it that I force myself to keep my word even in moments where I'm really mad at myself.
1:09:10Yeah. And so learning how to say no at this late stage of my life has been somewhat of a survival skill just because I would overcommit and take on projects. Of course. Yeah. Like consulting, anything where someone asks and professes to need me. And instead of saying, this is not interesting to me or I do not have time. Yeah. It's why I have eight jobs, but I'm not going to have nine. but that is really hard but it is a skill and I I I'm glad to now know kind of what the root of it is is that I'm afraid that I will disappoint people ultimately so I'd rather just like out of the gate so it's actually not because I'm trying to be harsh no it's actually a very beautiful service for people and it makes I think a no is makes me trust people even more I think it's a really good practice for mothers because this is, it's really, really hard, but also it lets you save your yeses.
1:10:13Yeah. Like then when they're there, you get to really be present. Well, think about what you're modeling for your kids, right? If you're either overriding every instinct in yourself to say no, and then you're full of resentment and irritation and or exhausted and overextended, right? That's not a great example. And nor is it, I think when I get overextended, my kids are like, where are you going? Like, right, right. Like, can you stay home? Which is why you could tell yourself this no is a yes to a night with the kids or a couple of hours in the morning to do whatever. Yeah. So do you want to, we need to wrap up because this is a four-hour episode, but will you talk about that tool?
1:11:01Yeah. So the drama triangle, it's a concept from the seventies that Steven Cartman, I think he had different names for it, but the way that Courtney coaches it is in line with, it's this group called conscious leadership group. And it's this idea that when you go below the line, I'll give you the definition of below the line and above the line, but when you're below the line, you see the world is happening to you. It's essentially a place of powerlessness. You're the victim of circumstances in the world. and many of, we go below the line all the time. So there's no version where you get to live exclusively above the line.
1:11:34When you are above the line, you see yourself as the creator of your own experience and as having power over how you see the world and how you show up in the world and how the world responds to you, which is just more fun. But I think we get a lot of hits off of being below the line as well, right? And being affirmed as sort of in our own victimhood. And And so when you're below the line, the drama triangle shows up as, you know, there's a victim, there's a villain, and there's a hero. And this is like marketing 101, really, for I don't think it's a good way to market, but it's part of our culture.
1:12:15But when you're below the line, you're like, this is the person who's this is the villain. This is the person to blame who's creating sort of my own victimhood. And you can play like I like to be the hero. You probably like to be the hero. Mind it. So we all sort of have a preferred place in this map. Usually victim hero. Nobody is like, I like to be the villain. Yeah. But once you understand that as a mechanism, you start to see people's thinking in real life. And you'll hear it in friends. Like when they get into that helpless, like it's all him. It's all her. Yeah. They're below the line and they're in the drama triangle.
1:12:54And again, it's normal, but it's really useful to see it. And once you see it, and to be fair, to be conscious about it. So sometimes I'll be talking to a friend who now knows the drama triangle and I'll say, I need to go below the line and get into the drama triangle. And I just need to rant and like be below the line. It's so fun. It is so fun. But it's also really healthy then to say, I know what I'm doing here. Yes. And then, and I'm going to move above the line and see what it looks like. But part of it is like, and in the workbook, we explain how you can even just sort of stand up and do it and move around the drama triangle.
1:13:29But when you make it big and fun, you're like, oh, I get it. I see all of these scripts and stories that are running my mind, running my thinking here so that I can be affirmed. I love all of this. Like every bit of this is just so cool. I want to talk about this for days and we will continue privately. Let's just take a nap, power nap. Yeah. Drink a Celsius and keep going. I'm going to have more. I've given up Celsius. I've never had a Celsius. I loved it so much, but I think it's really bad for you. I mean, obviously, if you look at the ingredients, but I went, I had a moment. So people now have really good tools just from this conversation and they can go get this workbook.
1:14:12But can you just, because this word is said so often, just like as a closer, say what reclaiming is for real? Reclaiming? Yeah. Because that's what ultimately this is about. Yeah. No, I like love that question. I think that it's about getting a handle on these stories, again, that we take as fact and that run our lives. And I think that we think of ourselves as these fully autonomous, rational beings. who are expressing our personality or behaving in the way it's always been and the way it always should be. And to me, reclaiming is just, I don't even like the word control really, but to get a handle on what's driving us and to interrogate a little bit and say, is this helpful?
1:15:09I understand why I've done this. I understand why I've been operating my life like this. It makes a ton of sense. Good job, self. But now can I take the story back, put it down, or refashion it in some way, and then choose a different story to run my life for a little bit? I love that.
1:15:44Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.
From the publisher
In this week’s episode, I’m joined by NY Times bestselling author and host of Pulling The Thread Podcast Elise Loehnen for a conversation about the stories women absorb—about being good, selfless, agreeable—and how those narratives shape our lives in ways we rarely notice. We talk about the difference between feelings and facts, why so many of us default to over-functioning, and how these inherited scripts show up during big transitions like pregnancy and early motherhood. Elise and I unpack what it takes to step out of the drama triangle, why martyrdom feels familiar but unsustainable, and how to build a more spacious inner voice that lets you respond instead of react.
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