Why Are All the Young People So Insecure?

0:00So when I read all the research papers, and I didn't just look at what they wrote in the abstract or in their commentary. I looked at the data, and the data actually says something else from what they're telling you and from the story that they're making. And it's mind-boggling. So for example, the attachment style that people have as an adult are not the attachment styles they have as kids. Not at all. In fact, less than 10 % of your attachment style as an adult can be explained by your attachment style as a child and also by parenting, by the type of parenting that you got. So we all think, oh my God, the parenting is so crucial and like everything that we do can potentially scar our kid.

0:41But that's not what the research shows. Not at all.

0:44Dr Amir Levine:We focus so much on our attachment relationship with our children, making sure it's healthy and secure. and all of that is wonderful. And also, we under-emphasize the importance of having healthy, secure attachment relationships with peers. Friendships matter, especially for developing children, and cultivating healthy relationships is really important and benefits them throughout their lives. Today's episode of Raising Good Humans podcast is with Dr. Amir Levine, and we're talking about secure. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman, developmental psychologist, New York Times bestselling author, associate clinical professor at Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast.

1:27Dr Amir Levine:I'm so glad you're here. For me, there's been in my own career, like kind of like a trajectory or a transformation, I would say, that I went through since I first wrote Attached about romantic attachment and how people behave in romantic relationships based on their attachment styles to really, I think, it took me about 15 years to create a new type of therapy that kind of integrates. It's almost like a unified theory of relationships or more, I should say, like secure relationships and how you can get along with anyone really in different aspects of your life. and some of it will be between parents and kids.

2:13But then very importantly, and I really, if I forget to touch upon that, you really have to help me go back to it. Also kids between kids, even toddlers, even when they're very young, because you'll see it's very, very important to start instilling that security, not just between parent and child, but between kids from a very young age. Okay, so how do you even define security? So my definition of security is something very, very specific, and it relies on the different attachment styles, the anxious, avoidant, secure, and disorganized or fearful avoidant. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want to make sure for those of you who don't know these different attachment styles, let's go through those briefly so that we can get to what secure is.

3:03Yeah, exactly. So these attachment styles were discovered by Mary Ainsworth in something that's called a strange situation test. And you can see it on YouTube. It's actually very informative to watch it in real time, but I'll describe it a little bit. What happens is they bring a caregiver with a toddler to a room full of toys, and they're watching them from a one-way mirror. and you typically see like when they see all these toys, it's like pointing at them, really interested in playing and exploring. And then they ask the mother, the caregiver to leave the room. And you see it happens like in real time, the toddler like drops whatever they're doing and rushes over to the door, starts banging on the door, crying for the mother.

3:51You can try interesting them with the toy. They'll throw it in your face. They don't care. They just want their mom back, their caregiver back. And then they ask their mother to go back into the room. And it's in that moment of the reunion that Mary Answorth noticed the three attachment styles. And then later on, Mary Mayne found the fourth attachment style. But then the three initial ones were anxious, avoidant, and secure. And the way that it plays out, it's remarkable. When you see the video, the child can be horribly upset. Even secure kids can be horribly upset, like really out of their mind.

4:30But the moment the mother picks them up, just like that, it's like magic. They calm down very, very quickly. And starts to point at the toys again, regaining interest in the world. Anxious attachment, bond or kids, not so easy. It takes a long, long time to console them. and they don't really regain that interest in the outside world that easily. And avoidant detachment, sometimes they don't even cry, but when the parent holds them, they kind of like stay limp in their hands. But when they looked and measured their blood pressure and heart rate, they saw that it was through the roof. So again, even here, even though they're not crying or protesting too much, they don't know how to use the bond as effectively in regulating their affect.

5:21And that's a very, very important distinction. It's about using the external social world in regulating our affect. That's the crux of attachment. So from my point of view, secure is more about to find the social environment where our emotions, where our affect is regulated, basically. So let's say you found that you're secure. you're moving through the world, how does it benefit you? So then the research about secure attachment, and when I wrote my old book, Attached, it was just about, oh, adults show greater satisfaction in romantic relationships, which is important for the kids too, because I think also from your work, you stress out a lot about the importance of the parent interaction on the well-being of the child.

6:15like in the day-to-day interaction. So that's one thing. But then since then, and that's part of the reason why I really wanted to write Secure is that they show that the benefits go way beyond just our romantic relationships. First of all, it's related to all of our relationships at work, with friends, with family, with siblings, the whole myriad of relationships. And also it has really profound effect on our well-being, on our personal well-being. Some of the research really shows that people who are more secure are healthier. They live longer. It really affects longevity. In fact, actually, when you have these sort of agitators in your life, they actually can take years away from your life.

7:04And also, they showed even the way that you shop is affected by your attachment style. For example, people who are more secure, they care less about tags and logos. And it just, even I think they did one study where they showed that people with secure attachment, let's say they have a debilitating illness like fibromyalgia, they will have better relationships with their health care provider and they will show less symptoms. So the benefits are really enormous. And the surprising twist is that these tenets of secure, what I've come to call in my book, secure mode, living in secure mode, I believe can be taught from a very early age.

7:57This show is brought to you in part by BetterHelp. You all know how important it is to support your mental health. The mental health of the parent is so inextricably linked to the mental health of our children. If you have considered therapy but just felt like you didn't have time or you didn't know who to go to or it just wasn't your moment for it, I really want to encourage you to try it. BetterHelp makes it so easy. They have times that you could schedule around your busy life. You can do it from any location. Summer can be a great time for a reset. They have thousands of providers that they can match you with.

8:38They're licensed professionals who can be there for you remotely while you have this conversation in a place that makes you feel private and safe. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer, but find support and therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off BetterHelp.com slash humans. That's betterhelp.com slash humans. I often remind parents that taking care of yourself isn't something that you age out of. In fact, as your kids get older, it can be an opportunity to finally address things you may have put on the back burner for a long time. One of those things is bladder leaks, like those times when you sneeze or when you jump or when you cough and you think, I probably should deal with this.

9:24Well, now there is finally an over-the-counter solution that isn't just another pad or a pair of leak-proof underwear. I'm talking about Uresta, a vaginally inserted reusable device that supports your bladder from within and stops leaks in their tracks. Think of it as a sports bra for your bladder and take care of yourself. Take this step to finally take care of yourself. Uresta is like nothing else out there and can finally provide you relief. Learn more about this amazing breakthrough trusted by over 50 ,000 women. at uresta.com. That's U-R-E-S-T-A dot com.

10:07Here's where I struggle with all of this because, of course, I'm a developmental psychologist and attachment is the foundation of so much of this work and the whole construct. But I do think about like, which I know you'll address, the two things that I struggle with are the primary adults in your life, if they haven't experienced that sense of ease in the world, that secure existence, the secure mode, as you call it. So learning how to recognize that that wasn't necessarily your natural state or the state that you were supported and taught when you were young. And so how do you get there now so that you can then help support your kids?

10:54And then the other thing that I struggle with is the kids who kind of came out into this world with a little less ease naturally, like their biological temperament is just like a little bit more anxious. Those kids, when you think about this is teachable, that to me is so important because there are people who come into this world with a preternatural ease and security. And there are people who I think it's for whom it's much harder. And so the work of the parent is going to be harder. And I would love all of the tools and strategies that you have. I think about, it's not for the people for whom this is easy.

11:34It's for the people for whom this is a challenge, which is a lot of us. Right. No, I totally agree with you. I think, but that's why I worked really hard in this book to come up because you know I'm also a molecular neuroscientist so part of what you learn to do as a scientist is to really try to have a reductionistic approach yeah and I translated it into my clinical work to find tools that are easy to use that are like that are straightforward that you don't need to dive into a lot of like work but it's something that you can actually practice day to day I'm glad that you mentioned this whole thing about how kids come into this world with different sensitivities, because I actually also have an issue with some of the attachment research, because in some ways, the anxious attachers and the avoidant also got a little bit of a bad rep.

12:27And I think there's a bias in the research. Thank you. I'm so glad. Like, I'm so glad we're talking about this. Same more because I have this like tension because I love attachment research, but I'm also like, there's this gnawing sense and I think it's it's sort of been in the conversation between the temperament and the attachment researchers but like I think together there's so much work to be done especially I really want to get into all these concrete tools yeah but I struggle with it because yes having that secure attachment relationship and many of them is so important and also, you know, it's easier for some people.

13:09Right. But what I actually, what I say in this book, and it's really revolutionary. I say a few things I can tell. Like I'm trying to sort of bust a few myths right out the door. And I'm really talking about, so when I read all the research papers and I didn't just look at what they wrote in the abstract or in their commentary. I looked at the data and the data actually says something else from what they're telling you and like from the story that they're making. And it's mind-boggling. So for example, the attachment style that people have as an adult are not the attachment styles they have as kids.

13:43Not at all. In fact, less than 10 % of your attachment style as an adult can be explained by your attachment style as a child. And also by parenting, by the type of parenting that you've got. So we all think, oh my God, the parenting is so crucial. And everything that we do can potentially scar our kid. but that's not what the research shows. Not at all. It actually shows that it has a very modest effect on the way that we then behave in the world as adults. And I think for parents, that's really good news. And all of my patients, when they have new babies and they're still like, oh my God, I did this or I did that, or even later on when they yell at their kids.

14:24Yeah, and panic. Yeah, no, there's not like that you can do a single thing that's going to scar them for life. That's not how it works. And in fact, I saw even one of the research shows, and that's what I want to get there too, that even like actually friendships are no less important in a tiny bit, a little bit more even important than like the parental experiences. So are we really focused so much about what did I do to my kid? But then maybe there's a way to think about also trying to help kids create a more secure environment for themselves, even in kindergarten. And I can give you an example.

15:06Yeah, please. It was one of my editors and she was telling me, like she has a three-year-old who's very shy, introverted, and very, very sensitive. So she came home and she said, oh, you know, mom, Sophie didn't play with me today. She didn't want to play with me today. And I think the natural inclination for parents is to say, it's okay, she'll play with you tomorrow. You know, try to sort of dissipate the interaction. But I think they're potentially missing here an opportunity to teach kids about secure attachment and secure relating. That's sort of like living in secure mode because one of the most important tools in the book is something that I called CARP and how important it is for our brain, for us to be and for other people to be consistent, available and responsive, like in an ongoing way so we can experience them as reliable and predictable.

16:03So that's CARP. But if you're telling your three-year-old, oh, it's okay, she'll play with you tomorrow, you're kind of like missing an important lesson to teacher. Well, you know, this might not be a reliable friend. And oftentimes what happens, even at that age, our brain really shifts to this needs to be fixed. This needs to be fixed. Well, there might be someone there who there's always these friends who always show up, who always want to play, who are really there, who are carp, who are consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable. So I call these the five pillars of a secure life, of living secure mode.

16:41So even a child who's three years old, you can teach in different ways. I'm also a child psychiatrist, so I always think about ways to teach in stories. You can talk about the shifty giraffe and the stable, reliable elephant and how the shifty giraffe is on day one she plays with you, and then on Monday she plays, on Tuesday she doesn't play, on Wednesday she plays half of the day. And then the elephant, Zara the elephant, is always willing to play with you. And then maybe it's just better just to really focus more on Zara the elephant than on the shifted giraffe. So there's different ways that you can actually convey this to a child that, well, this may not be a reliable friend and kind of like give them an inclination.

17:33oh, in the world, in my world, it's important to find people who are CARP, who are consistent, available, and responsive. And then they can carry that with them for the rest of their lives. And be that way. Because I was just thinking, what a great framing to teach our kids CARP as like, check in with yourself. Are you being that friend? Oh yeah, that goes without saying. So let's just go through the developmental trajectory. That's a great story. The elephant and the giraffe for the littles. How, as kids navigate the social world, particularly that sort of the power play during the middle school years and into high school, how does that translate?

18:24and how can we help support kids so that they're leaning into exercising the muscle of looking for carp friends instead of the ones who make them feel like crap? No, exactly. It's not that just to make them feel like crap. They activate their attachment system and they create a working model because these attachment systems are working models. So if you think about it, they create a working model that relationships are unstable, not that lovable. like people will want to play with me and sometimes not want to play with me. Parents concentrate so much on their interaction. They're sort of, it's kind of like a bit of a myopic view where we have so many different social interactions around us and the world around us.

19:10So that's why I thought it would be so nice to teach very specific skills that then can be applied to all relationships. So even later, like in grade school, I mean, in other ages, that CARB thing, even in adulthood, that CARB thing still holds. And another important aspect to explain to people is that for our brain, you know, when people go to therapy, even with kids, like we focus on big events that happen to them. We look for like potentially the trauma or difficult things that have happened or do the work on looking at these big events. But we hardly ever really pay much attention to what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life, which I call simis.

20:02So these micro interactions, but from a neuroscience perspective, these micro interactions really have it like each and every one of them can shape the brain and send it on a different trajectory. So each one is an opportunity for a different experience for the brain to go through that then can append an existing working model. So if a child has a friend that's constantly hot and cold, and then you shift their attention to someone who's actually in the day-to-day little things, it really shows up for them. That really creates structural changes in the brain towards greater security. I even remember it from my own experience when I was in school.

20:51I can tell you what happened to me. I think let's hear it because it really helps to make concrete all these ideas, which are so important for our, you know, as you said, we have so many reasons why these are important. But thinking about our kids as they become adults, how empowering is it to think, okay, we've been working on this for so long? and you know the funny thing when you're and then i'll tell you the story but i have to tell you when um because a child psychiatrist when you sit and you talk to the parents and you explain i explain to them some of these things so they'll know how to teach their kids and the kids are sitting there i remember i was specifically this eight-year-old that was sitting there and you know kids sit and like they pretend like they don't listen but they hear everything but all of a sudden what I was talking about, the shifty friend and the stable friend, I could see him perk up.

21:45He couldn't really keep that, oh, I'm not really listening. I could see him becoming really interested because these difficult, painful relationships, here, it happens at three-year-old. It happens at any age. I don't think we've done enough and we didn't really have these particular tools to shift and give your child the blueprint of how to navigate this relationship world towards a more secure one. But for my story, what happened to me is I remember once I had three friends, three very good friends, I think one was 10 years old, maybe. And then they came to our house and we played, it was a play date, but they were mean to me and my sister was there.

22:35My sister is my great defender. She's always been, she's three years older than me. And she was like, you don't talk to him this way. And she's like, tell him like, she threw them out of the house. And then they said, well, we'll wait for you tomorrow. You'll see what's going to happen. And I was afraid to go to school. And then my dad told me, no, you're going to go and you're going to sort of really keep your head up. And then you just like, ignore them and talk to other people. And I remember it. I can tell you, I have goosebumps just describing it. Like it was yesterday because it was such an emotionally like charged moment.

23:14I went to school. I remember where it happened. There was like this staircase that led, there was like in the, in the courtyard of the school and the playground. And there was like this big tree. I remember, and then I remember them standing there starting to sort of say mean things. And I remember like me shifting my gaze and then looking at Ethan. And what was their, like his name was Ethan and Boaz. I think that was their name. And then like going to them and talking to them. And that was it. There was such a shift. And after that for years, they were really good friends. Like we were really good friends.

23:50And none of that whole taunting. It was really completely a very secure relationship. shift. So when that happened, and now with the research that you do, what do you think the mechanism was? Like, was it your secure, your inherent security, that that security mode that maybe your sister and your dad sent you off with? Do you think it was their response to you? What do you think that was? I think what it was is that like a shift in perspective that all of a someone told me, no, this is not okay. Like saying to like, no, it's not okay that Sophie plays with you on one day and then another day she doesn't play with you.

24:35It's just like, it's not even that it's not okay. She's not a reliable friend. So you sort of like give her a tag, something that the kid can then remember. Oh, that's not a reliable friend. It gives a language, a very specific language to something. And even if they're three-year-olds, you can teach them it's not reliable. Like you can sort of, you find the words, but sometimes I actually like even telling kids. the big words because then it becomes they learn it. And because it's so emotionally laden, they will remember it. So for me, my sister all of a sudden set the bar in a different place and she said, no, that's not an okay behavior.

25:11And then I was given the opportunity to shift my gaze and to find someone else. And that's one of the biggest lessons that I'm trying to teach in Secure is to shift the gaze because we all have these secure people in our lives, but our brains tend to kind of navigate towards where there's drama. And also because we don't know about security and how important it is for the brain. But because it's, remember, I told you, it's about the health. It's about how our longevity, like forget about the supplements and everything that people are taking. This is really the crux of it. It's so important. So knowing that really like shift towards the secure people in your life.

25:54And that's what I really try to teach people in Secure, how to build their secure village, basically. I call it a secure village. And so I almost feel like, you know, what you were saying was, it's not okay if Sophie wants to play one day and doesn't want to play the next day. And then you adjusted what you said to say, well, it's okay, but it's not reliable. And to have language to even be able to say, look, I'm going to like this person, but at a distance, because they're not going to be the reliable friend. And so I love that so much. It's like a name for something that otherwise doesn't feel good.

26:29But once you know, okay, this is what I can expect here and that's not going to be my secure village, I can get other things out of it, but it's not going to be my secure village. It like orients you to a healthier situation. Exactly. And I have also in the book, I came up with a name for another tool, a name for that. and I call it like a wall tennis with love. That's the name of the tool. And I don't know if you've ever played tennis against the wall. Not very well, but I have. Right, right. I think we'll accept. Me too. Also not very well. But that's the beauty about the wall tennis with love.

27:08Whatever you dish the wall is what you're going to get back in a slightly less of intensity. So in wall tennis with love, you are the wall. and then when you have a shifty giraffe interacting with your new life, you don't cut off stuff with them if you don't have to, right? What you do is you lower the volume in the relationship by being the wolf. So you don't go and say, hey, you want to play or you want to do all these things. No, you let them come to you and you do it with love. And so you can play with them a little bit, but you don't prioritize the relationship. And that's a very important attachment lesson to learn because sometimes when we actually cut off relationships, what happens is that we get an attachment backlash.

27:53And then there's, I call it in the book, the protest regret cycle, where we start missing them. Our brain doesn't let go of people that easily, including friends. Like it can be very painful. So in order to circumvent that pain of like cutting someone off, that's how I came up with the World Tennis with Love. And I even have, I have a friend that I'm doing wall tennis with love with. And you can see our text. He would text me, hi. And because it's wall tennis with love, you have to respond in a carp way. So I say hi, but he doesn't say anything else. And I don't say anything else because it's the wall.

28:30I don't really initiate to myself. So then a week later, hi, again, hi. And you can see in our text, there's a string of highs. And then every once in a while, he calls and I answer and we talk and I'm very warm. It's with love. but I don't initiate. I initiate with my secure village but I don't initiate here because when I initiated here I was rebuffed and it wasn't a secure experience. So why should I have to go back and bang my head against the wall if it was an insecure experience trying to get water out of a stone? No, instead I do wall tennis with love and then I go to my secure village.