He Lives Overseas, But His 3 Rentals Cash Flow While He Sleeps

19:32Ashley Kehr:No turnover. That's great.

19:35Tony Robinson:Zero turnover. Zero turnover. So and she and her family have been wonderful. She's been very communicative through the property management company I have. lets me know about things that she would like to have done to improve the property. They're always reasonable. And I think that helps maintain the value of my investment. And so I think it's a really good relationship.

19:55Ashley Kehr:And now when you found the turnkey provider, were they someone that was specific to that area or were they kind of more all over the place and they helped you pick that market?

20:05Tony Robinson:So they at the time, they were focused on a handful of markets. So it was the Jacksonville area, Orlando area. I want to say one or two of the markets in Tennessee, North Carolina, but they were Southeast US and they hit a couple of markets there. And so I also felt confident with that because they were clearly kind of focused in on an area of the country. They also had information about the companies that were currently managing the properties. And I was able to pick up the phone and call that management company and ask them a lot of questions, which I took from your message boards.

20:40Ashley Kehr:Do you have any other tips or advice for our rookie listeners on vetting a turnkey company? We talk about vetting property managers, agents, things like that, but what about a turnkey company? You said you liked that they were very specific to one area. That was a good sign. What are some other green flags that you see for a turnkey company?

21:02Tony Robinson:Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I feel like I went in this direction out of necessity, partly. So I don't want to say that it's for everybody. I would certainly do it again, though, especially with this company that I used, I felt comfortable with it. I think one of the things was I was also able to talk to people from the turnkey company. I mean, it wasn't just some marketplace where you're just clicking on things online or sending emails. I was able to get on the phone and talk to people. And again, using the BiggerPockets message boards, I had ideas of some questions to ask. I mean, I'm always trying to learn more.

21:35Tony Robinson:I'd probably go back in time and ask 20 other questions. Fortunately, it worked out for us. But just being able to connect human to human, right? I still think that even in the age of the internet and everything, we're having this conversation from however many thousands of miles away. Human to human relationships is still critical, I think, to being able to make judgment calls and make good decisions. And so having those relationships. Dave, one thing that you mentioned that I just want to circle back to is the metaphor of weather versus climate. And I've never quite heard it described that way, but it is such an apt way to describe how you can make certain decisions is to not get so fixated on what's happening today, but to sometimes look at longer time horizons.

22:21And I know for a fact that where a lot of rickies get overwhelmed is in the dreaded analysis paralysis. We don't live today in an age where we have a lack of information. If anything, there's an overabundance of information. That's usually what drives people to not take action. So I think the question, along with that concept of weather versus climate, is that within that, sometimes there are a lot of data points. How do you not get so caught up in trying to find the next data point and the next data point and the next data point and just getting to a point where you can actually make a decision?

22:59Tony Robinson:Well, first of all, a lack of time to be able to do that. I mean, I would love to be able to do some of the things that you hear on either your podcast or the more general BiggerPockets real estate investing podcast and dig down into crime statistics or literally look at every property and get on Google Maps and walk the street if I can. But I just don't have that time. And so you talk about the buy box a lot in BiggerPockets. And I think part of it is not just saying, oh, I want a three bed, two bath. This is the maximum price. I'd like this size lot or this proximity to a school. But just saying this is the amount of information that I want, whatever it is, and I need no more information.

23:45Tony Robinson:Now, that doesn't mean the next day you're going to make an offer or the next day you're going to close a deal because you might have to make 20, 30 offers and do the math on 20, 30 properties. I'm also, I am not a good math guy. So I'm doing very rough math on mortgage insurance, taxes. I'm looking at maybe Zillow, Redfin for 10 different monthly rental listings. And I'm just looking at what makes sense. Again, I'm very risk averse. So I'm rounding down a lot on the income. I'm rounding up a lot on the cost. And I'm just making sure that that at least kind of hits that delta that I need. Yeah, Dave, you said something insightful is that you identify what you actually need to make a decision and then nothing more than that.

24:30But I think that's where I want to drill down. How do you decide where to draw that line? And I think so many people, the line just kind of gets pushed out. Every single time they get a new piece of information, they realize there's something else that they don't know. And the the line just kind of moves further down. So how do you both as a real estate investor, and even just like in the work that you do for the government, how you decide where to draw that line?

24:52Tony Robinson:Well, I mean, again, you make a point here is that, you know, it does get back a little bit to my work. I mean, sometimes you just have to, you just have to stop. And you just have to say, this is the information that I have. And it has a real significant value. And I can share that in the case of sharing it back with Washington, D.C., sharing it with my with my supervisors. When is it worthwhile to share this information and why would they need any more at this moment? And the same thing with real estate, you know, to know that a property in this area or properties in this area that are three bed, two bath or whatever the situation is, go for this amount of money and this is the rent and here's what the insurance and here's what the mortgage rate would be.

25:34Tony Robinson:and again, building in a cushion of conservative estimations, you just say this is enough information. I mean, because as you and others in the podcast say all the time, it is a question of math, right? I mean, you shouldn't fall in love with a property, maybe not even with a market, unless you really know the market and you're more in love with those dynamics in the market. But it should be enough when the numbers work. And if you have enough information for the numbers to work, you should be able to stop, right? You don't need to know, oh, it has a really beautiful bush in the front yard that might be fun to decorate on Christmas.

26:13Tony Robinson:That's irrelevant to buying the property and knowing that the numbers will work and a family will be happy to live there and might stay. So reducing your turnover, et cetera, et cetera. And Dave, I appreciate you walking us through that. And I know I'm harping on this a lot, but the reason I do is because I know that this is where so many people get stuck before ever even buying their first deal. And just to compliment what you've shared, I think what I want all of our rookies to walk away with is that there is a distinction between comfort and confidence in a decision. And what a lot of rookies wait for is comfort, when in reality, what they should be searching for is a certain degree of confidence in a decision.

26:56It is, if you're doing anything of substance, anything that's new, anything that's pushing you outside of your normal boundaries, by definition, it means you're stepping outside of your comfort zone. So it is physically impossible to be doing something new, doing something of substance, doing something that's pushing you to grow while also being comfortable. So if we wait for that comfort to arrive, we never get to a point where we can make a decision. But if we instead accept that we have to be a little bit uncomfortable and instead look for a certain degree of confidence in our decisions, that's how we actually move forward.

27:27And Dave, I mean, you know, again, doing this from, I don't even know how, I don't even know where Vienna's at on the map. But the fact that you're doing it from there and you're buying real estate, I think is a testament to your ability to do that. So Dave, you've got your framework, you got your first intentional deal, and then life delivers another opportunity, a diplomatic assignment to Colorado Springs, which is a place I do know, which is actually one of your target markets. So when we come back, we're going inside his full remote investor playbook, how he manages properties from embassy housing in Vienna and what any long distance investor can steal from his system.

27:57Tony Robinson:If my house had a resume, it would probably say great at structure and not much else. I'm the one paying the mortgage. My house mostly just stands there looking supportive. When you're away, it doesn't actually have to sit empty though. You can list your space on Airbnb. And now Airbnb has something called the co-host network, which makes it a lot easier to do. A co-host is a local experience host who can help manage all the details. So hosting stays stress-free and manageable. So instead of your home just sitting there while you're away, it could actually help bring in a little extra income. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

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31:40Tony Robinson:They've been trusted partners with BiggerPockets for over a decade. And if you want to learn more, visit biggerpockets.com slash retirement. All right, we're back here with Dave. Now, Dave, you're opposed to Colorado Springs, a market you'd already been analyzing. And I want you to walk us into that moment. You know, you're living in a city that you've been researching as an investor and you have a two-year window and I want to know what you did with it. So you actually bought in Colorado Springs while you were stationed there and you've built out your portfolio Leo from postings in multiple countries.

32:08Again, right now, today you're managing from Vienna. What does a typical week look like as a property owner?

32:15Tony Robinson:What does a typical week look like as a property owner? I mean, thankfully, due to some amazing property management, it is very, very hands off. Now, like everything, you take a hit on the back end because you're paying for that level of service. Again, I met my property manager in Colorado Springs through the Bigger Pockets message boards. I went out, I met with a few property managers in the area, sort of interviewed them. And I had come in with some ideas and some numbers that I thought I understood well. And I was sort of testing them and asking them to give me some ideas when I showed them just some properties and just some very basic details.

32:56Tony Robinson:And this one guy was able to almost down to the dollar was able to tell me, you know, this is what the mortgage will be. This is probably what the rent will be in a year from now when you leave and so forth and so on. I just felt incredibly confident with this individual. He was himself a property owner, an investor, but also running this property management company. And this was another example of luck because, as you said, Colorado Springs was one of the other markets we were looking at. It had the businesses. It had the millennials. It had the military location. Beauty. I mean, just unimaginable beauty in the Colorado Springs area.

33:32Tony Robinson:So it had tourism. and I was very lucky because we found an amazing realtor. She started taking us around. I had to start my job. My wife started looking at properties. My wife called me up one day and said, I think I found something. I said, to be honest with you, I'm about to run into a meeting. I don't have time. If you believe in it, I believe in you. Go sign some paperwork and go do it. And we lived there for two years with our kids and we absolutely loved it. My kids still talk about how much they love that house. It was also where we spent COVID. So we got to know the house very, very well.

34:04Tony Robinson:Um, and, uh, it really made us very confident in the Colorado Springs market and we refinanced it down to a 2.15 during, during the pandemic. So it's also become a really strong, uh, cashflow property that helps us sort of build our capital and buttress when we have like a lull in some of our other properties. Dave, did you say 2.15? Yeah, but unfortunately, uh, a DOD friend of mine got 1.99 through a VA loan and he beat me and I was furious about it. It was the same week. It was the same week. I was furious. I think you might hold the record right now for lowest interest rate we've heard on the podcast.

34:41I mean, you're episode 704. So we've had 703 other stories before yours. And I don't think I've heard anyone get to a 2.15. Ash, do you know anyone?

34:51Ashley Kehr:God never paid that off.

34:54Tony Robinson:No, I will never refinance it and I will never pay it off. Yeah, we'll let that ride forever.

34:59Ashley Kehr:Well, David, you talked about how key it is to have a property manager, one you can rely on. But were there any mistakes that you made from the beginning when you decided to kind of be your asset manager remotely?

35:13Tony Robinson:Well, I mentioned my wife and thank God for her because I tend to not get emotional about a property, but I tend to get a little excited about completing a task and maybe not doing all of the analysis that I should do once I've decided on something and started down that path. So, you know, I might be looking at 10 or 12 properties, but once I start into the conversation, maybe earnest money or something like that, then I tend to kind of become a little bit fixated. And she is certainly a balance there. And I think one of the mistakes I made, maybe at least twice now, is really jumping in to a deal and then not continuing to do analysis and checking numbers and checking the process once I had sort of shot off the starting gun.

36:09Tony Robinson:And I think that, you know, it's not so much falling in love with the property, but, you know, it's sort of that sunk cost fallacy where I said, well, I'm in. I'm in. And so, like, maybe I can make it work or maybe this conversation I'm having with this person isn't as bad as I think it is. Now, again, it's worked out. But but I think that, you know, my my wife has done some of that course correcting for me. Yeah. And, you know, I invest with my wife as well. And I think there's always a good balance here. And what I found is that a lot of times what makes two people work as a, as, as like a husband and wife also kind of lends itself to being business partners.

36:43Because in the same way that we compliment each other in our marriage, we find ourselves complimenting each other that way in, in, in our business as well. And it's just kind of cool to see that, that dynamic play out. Um, I guess just separately, just because I'm curious on this piece. Now we get a lot of questions from rookies about how do I get my spouse on board with investing in real estate? And usually that conversation is, Hey, honey, there's a house, you know, 10 minutes away that I think might be a good deal for us. And, and even that's kind of like an uphill battle, but you were talking about doing this from a different continent with, you know, a young family.

37:19What was that conversation like for you, Dave, to get her on board with the idea of building this real estate portfolio?

37:26Tony Robinson:I guess part of it helped from the fact that I own this co-op in New York before we met and got married. And so there was a little bit of a proof of concept. But I mean, my wife is incredibly smart. I mean, business savvy. I mean, she understands numbers and stuff like that. And so part of it was I was able to show her the math when we looked at the turnkey. I said, here's the amount of money we have. Here's the amount of money we'll cost. You know, we're not in 2008, nine again. So worst case scenario is the person moves out. It's empty for a while. We just don't see it as working. We sell it.

37:58Tony Robinson:We lose a few bucks. Right. But that worked out. And then when we were in Colorado, the math was simple to say, if we rent for two years, it'll cost us this amount of money. But this market is good. It's something we previously actually talked about. So a bit of serendipity there. and here's the numbers even after two years in terms of mortgage pay down, possible appreciation, stuff like that. So I said, it's just numbers again. It just all comes down to numbers. And then once that proof of concept happened and when we had this property manager we love, that's when we bought the second property in Colorado while we were actually at the time in Belgium.

38:31Tony Robinson:So we refinanced the property in Jacksonville, pulled out some money, not down to 2.15, but we refinanced it and pulled out some money and used that to buy the second property in Colorado. So it's a town called Fountain. It's right down I-25. It's about maybe 20 minutes south of Colorado Springs. Same property manager, excellent experience, and we're really happy with that too. Yeah. So it all starts to stack. And I think that's a cool part of investing in real estate is that oftentimes property one can help you buy a property two and properties one and two help you buy properties three. And it all starts to kind of snowball from there.

39:05But Dave, I mean, you're living in Vienna, you're raising three kids, managing a career that sends you literally around the world, what is the next chapter of your portfolio look like? And I think more importantly, what does financial freedom mean to someone who's kind of already living, you know, you're living abroad, you're traveling, you're living in Europe on a government salary. What does that look like for you?

39:25Tony Robinson:Well, so the first thing it looks like is to stop traveling. I want to give my kids stability. So my number one, you know, what do they say? Like moving and public speaking are like the two most stressful things. You'd rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy. So all I do is move and speak publicly. All right. So I would love to stop that. Not the public speaking. I enjoy that. But the moving, for my kids' sake, they're now 12, 11, and 7. So they've had to leave friends and it does now affect them. It's hard for us, no matter what, being part of an embassy community or otherwise, to plug and play and have a social life instantly.

40:03Tony Robinson:My wife, who has a degree in marine biology, I've now brought her to three different postings in the mountains. So she hasn't really been able to pursue that. And so we would like to find a way to have what we call a forever home, you know, and find a place for us and still pursue real estate investing. So we're now looking, like I said, to re-pivot to the growth phase and buy a fourth property. We'd like to try to do about maybe one property every two years. Again, I'm risk averse and there's a lot of other things on my plate. And then I'm working with a partner now to launch a nonprofit. And we'd like to have some financial independence on our own after I leave the State Department at some point where I can focus on that without having to really take a cut in lifestyle.

40:50Tony Robinson:I won't necessarily be living in Vienna, but without taking a big cut in lifestyle and be able to provide things for my kids and my wife and things like that. So I figure if we can get to five or six properties by the time I retire, which is not so far off, then we would have a significant cash flow. Then I'd have a pension. I have a government version of a 401k and a second chapter, a second career that would really be the bulk of my salary. Because I can't actually stop. I can't stop working. I just want to move to something else that has a little bit of more physical stability.

41:29Ashley Kehr:Well, David, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciated you taking the time. I know it's late at night there. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people reach out to you and find out more information?

41:41Tony Robinson:Well, I do have a Bigger Pockets profile. Unfortunately, my activity ebbs and flows. I'm also on LinkedIn. I would love to talk to folks who are interested in the Florida market, who are interested in the Colorado Springs market, want to ask questions, want to give me advice, or even young people who are interested in careers in the State Department. I mean, I would be happy to talk to people about stuff like that because I think it's really a wonderful way to provide service to your country for folks who think that that might be an angle for them versus other options.

42:13Ashley Kehr:What about any ski tips for going My wife and I are terrible.

42:18Tony Robinson:My wife and I are terrible at skiing.

42:21Ashley Kehr:No ski tips.

42:22Tony Robinson:We're terrible at skiing. We go once in a while for the kids, but we're absolutely awful at it.

42:27Ashley Kehr:My kids have a worldwide bucket list of places they want to snowboard and stuff. And I mean, they're like, oh, Japan, we want to go there. Austria, Switzerland, you know, like all these crazy places they want to go.

42:41Tony Robinson:Can I plug Bulgaria? It is an amazing country, exceedingly friendly people and very, very affordable luxury. It is one of our favorite places in the world. We go back and visit quite frequently.

42:54Ashley Kehr:My dad owns a business and he only has a couple of employees and two of them are originally from Bulgaria and they go back there several times a year.

43:03Tony Robinson:Ask them about the scheme.

43:04Ashley Kehr:Yeah. So interesting. I'll have to talk to them more. Well, David, thank you so much for joining us and everyone else. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Real Estate Rookie. I'm Ashley. He's Tony. And we'll see you guys on the next episode. Hey, rookies, if you're watching this, we want you to apply to be a guest on the Real Estate Rookie podcast. That's right. Ashley and I are looking for amazing stories just like yours to be a part of our Real Estate Rookie podcast. Now, look, you don't need to be an expert. You don't need to have done thousands of deals. Even if you've done one deal, your story could help inspire the next listener.

43:34Ashley Kehr:As a rookie investor, especially if you just got your first deal, it is all fresh in your minds and you are the best person to tell your story, give your experience on how you got it done to help someone else get their first deal. So head over to biggerpockets.com slash guest. If you want to be a part of our show again, that's biggerpockets.com slash guest. And we'd love to have you on.