The Ultimate Guide to Buying Off-Market Properties (As a Complete Beginner)

18:03Ashley Kehr:My God, can you imagine finding out you have liens against you that you had nothing to know about? Not even liens, but 27. Oh my goodness. So Janelle, when you, when you talk about like you take care of the lien. So is this calling the contact person and negotiating or are you paying the full balance on each of them? What does it actually entail when you take care of the liens?

18:29Tony J. Robinson:Yeah. So it does depend on the lien and who has put the lien on there. So sometimes we can negotiate them down and then pay off a smaller balance. Sometimes we can just get them forgiven. Other times we have to pay off the full balance. So it does take quite a bit of work to be able to work through. And the reason why my team has been able to master this strategy of figuring out liens is because for some reason in Cincinnati, the liens list, when I send direct mail or do marketing, liens as a niche list do very well for me. I get a lot of callbacks and different things like that, lots of leads from that.

19:07Tony J. Robinson:So that is why I have been able to figure out this lien situation because it does take a little bit of time to master, like I mentioned, and having the right people in place to be able to get these things taken off or help the seller get them forgiven, paid off, whatever. And usually when you're paying them off too, sometimes you're using seller proceeds to do that. Or I have to build up my assignment fee to pay off some of these loans or these liens, which is what I'm doing a little bit, but not really. I think we're only paying like a thousand bucks or 2000 bucks for one or two liens to get them removed for the sale.

19:42Tony J. Robinson:But yeah, so that's usually what you got to do. Now, you know, you mentioned direct mail is one of the ways that you're sourcing these off market opportunities. I guess let's zoom out. You guys are doing, I think you said about 30 deals per year, right? So that's like a couple deals every single month. If you look at all the deals that you do on a monthly basis, what's the breakdown of the different channels that you're going through to actually get those deals done? Yeah. So now it's actually changed a lot, I think, because we've been in the business for a little while now. So we've been investing, my husband and I have been investing now for about seven years, I think it is.

20:15Tony J. Robinson:So in the beginning, we were very, very direct mail heavy, like that's almost all we did. And then we did some partnerships with wholesalers, like JV partnerships with wholesalers joint venturing. And now we're honestly like a lot more referral based. So wholesalers bring us deals that they can't close. Or we partner with realtors that have deals that are fixers, they don't want to list or the seller doesn't want to list or even past clients that have done deals with us and want to do more. So that's basically what we do. And I'm starting to get into the auction side of things, but maybe that's another topic for another day.

20:51Ashley Kehr:We just had someone on recently who was talking about auctions and it like once again rings that shiny object bell for us. I feel like, oh, maybe this is something we should revisit.

20:59Tony J. Robinson:Yes, I know. Oh, and I'm doing paper lead now too, but I don't have like solid numbers just yet to really see how well it works for me.

21:07Ashley Kehr:Okay. Yeah. Tell us about that. And how does that actually compare to direct mail?

21:12Tony J. Robinson:The way I do paper lead is a little bit different because usually for paper lead, when you're working with a paper lead company, and paper lead, by the way, stands for you actually paying per lead. So some people think it's paper, like a sheet of paper, but it's not. It's paying per lead that you buy. Like pay per view. Yeah. Is that even still around anymore? Exactly. Exactly. So same concept. But so with the companies that offer the pay per lead strategy, you're investing a certain amount of money into these companies. And then from that monthly budget that you give them, they will funnel you leads.

21:52Tony J. Robinson:So and it's usually a like a round robin process. So you will let the company know how much you're willing to pay for each lead that they send you. It could be 200 bucks, 250 bucks, whatever. And the person that the person that will pay the most for the leads will get the leads first until their budget runs out. And then they'll go to the next person, the next person, the next person. so um you if you're gonna pay the least and you're probably gonna wait towards usually towards the end of the month to really start to receive these leads as the other people's budgets run out um i didn't necessarily love that strategy because you don't really have any control of the leads that you get so i found another company that will allow you to manually pay for leads um instead well they allow for both you can go ahead and issue money to your account and they'll give you leads as they come in, but you can also manually pay for leads as they come in.

22:49Tony J. Robinson:So you are able to kind of screen them a little bit and see if they're worth taking on because my buy box is pretty specific, I'd say. So I only want certain leads. And so that's why I like this strategy of manually paying for them instead of having to like buy in bulk almost. What's typical costs on these leads that you're paying for? Yeah. So right now I'm at max paying for like a hundred bucks a lead. It's actually not too bad. And then do you know, like, like, you know, out of 100 leads, how many of those actually convert into closed, you know, whether it's assignment fees, or, you know, you end up keeping the deal, how many of those actually closed for you?

23:25Tony J. Robinson:Yeah, so right now, I've only bought in, how many have I bought? I bought in like 60 to 70 leads. And we have a handful of them under like appointment status right now, none to conversion. So and I started this two or three months ago. So it's been a little bit, but I've also known, I mean, so I'm used to the delays like this because with off market strategies, or even just when you're sourcing deals, you have that delay because of the follow-up sequence that you have to have. Like on average, it takes five to seven touches to convert a person to a lead. That's usually what it falls down to. And then from that, it usually takes three to five touches to convert them from a lead to a deal.

24:10Tony J. Robinson:So it takes a little while to nurture these people and nurture these leads to get them to close. And that's why that follow up is so important. But that's also why there's just that slight delay for me right now. It's just because I mean, just it takes a little bit to nurture and with paper lead leads, I've noticed they kind of fall in between cold calling and direct mail. So like, with direct mail, I feel like those leads are just a little bit warmer because they're reaching out to you saying that they want to sell they received your letter, and they're interested or else they wouldn't have called you.

24:38Tony J. Robinson:Right. So they're just a little bit more motivated with cold calling. It's just a complete cold lead, right? Like you're reaching out and sometimes they say, yeah, I'm interested. Give me the price or whatever. And people consider that a leader and they want a million dollars for like a hundred K house or something, you know? So, and, but with, um, the paper lead, like they're slightly screened already because the company has screened them for you. Right. And they're doing their due diligence on their end to make sure that they're a lead that is worth giving out to their clients and for people to pay.

25:07Tony J. Robinson:So I feel like they're falling right in between cold calling and direct mail and a sense of motivation because they're like pretty motivated, more motivated than cold calling, but less in direct mail, if that makes sense.

25:19Ashley Kehr:Now, with all of this, this whole process of the first touch point to setting the appointment, how are you managing all of this? How are you using software? Is it a spreadsheet to actually track all those touch points and what status someone is in?

25:37Tony J. Robinson:So I am using a software. I'm using a CRM called ReSimply to help me keep track of all this stuff. And I also have all of my leads on a drip sequence or a drip campaign. So whenever they come in, once a lead comes into my CRM and my database, they are automatically getting a text message saying that I'm going to reach out to them. And I'll reach out to them. And then if I get a, if they answer the phone, then they go into a different follow-up campaign. If they don't answer the phone, then they're put back on the drip as a no contact maid. And then that drip sequence is just going to be constantly following up with them until they tell me to stop or until they answer the phone.

26:16Now, Janelle, you talked about paper lead, but you also said direct mail was where you really started. Direct mail, I think to your point, is great because you get warmer leads. And I've shared on previous podcast episodes where I've gotten certain calls back from people who I was cold calling who weren't very happy to get a cold call. But on the direct mail, they're reaching out to you. So it is warmer leads. But I think it's also... Maybe there's a little bit more risk associated with direct mail than there is just cold calling homeowners because you got to spend a little bit more money up front to get that going.

26:50So what have you found is maybe A, some of the mistakes that Ricky typically make when it comes to direct mail? And B, what are some of like your, I don't know, I guess your best ways to like improve your conversion rate and getting people to actually call you off of those mailers?

27:05Tony J. Robinson:Yeah, so going to the first question first, with that, honestly, I feel like people fail with direct mail because one, they either don't send enough mail or they don't stay consistent with that mailing. so like I mentioned already like it takes a little while to actually convert a person to a lead like three to five touches five to seven sometimes right so it you have to constantly be sending mail to see to reap your reward um and then I talked to some people like oh I sent 100 letters and didn't get one single call back it's like well because you sent 100 you know like usually it takes a little bit more than that unfortunately like I wish it only took 100 letters and sometimes it does, you know, like I'm not, I'm not saying that doesn't work, but if you're trying to really build up a pipeline, then you're most likely going to have to send more than that.

27:55Tony J. Robinson:Like for example, for me in Cincinnati, it takes me on average about 3 ,800 letters to convert or to get a deal. So, um, it, it takes a little, it takes, uh, quite a few letters to actually get a deal in, you know, and if you're in a more expensive market, like Southern California, Seattle, the East Coast, something like that. It's going to usually take more. Your marketing is going to cost you more before you land a deal. So it just takes a little while. Janelle, what are you saying in your letters? Because you said five to seven touch points. Is it the same mailer every single time? What are you saying in each one of these mailers?

28:31And what's your cadence for sending them out?

28:33Tony J. Robinson:Yeah. So I use a company to help me send out these letters. I use a company called Ballpoint Marketing. There's a couple others that I have heard good things from like open letter marketing and yellow letter marketing, but I use ballpoint and honestly, whatever ballpoint says to say on the letter, I just say it. I don't change the copy of it because I know those companies or I feel like actually I know the owner of ballpoints. I know he does it. I don't know about the other guys, but they do a lot of market research to figure out what copy or what text on the letter actually performs and get sellers to call you back.

29:07Tony J. Robinson:And I'm not a wizard at that. I have no idea. So I just trust in them and don't change it. And usually what my letters say is, dear seller, what are your plans for 123 Main Street? I'm prepared to make a cash offer. Please call my office at whatever if you're interested in selling. Sincerely, my name. That's it. It's pretty basic, pretty generic. Sometimes the copy changes depending on the letter that I'm sending, like just because whatever they have, I just change it. But it's very, very slight changes. They're not huge. And then my sequence for it is usually I'll send two normal letters, like actually actual letters to the same list.

29:48Tony J. Robinson:Like so one month I'll send a letter, the next month I'll send another letter, and then I'll switch over to postcards. And I'll send a post, like usually three rounds of postcards to that same list until the list kind of dies out, basically. Um, but if i'm not getting a great response from a list like if I just like i'm not getting Anywhere with it, then i'll usually just send that one letter look at my response rate and then uh, Send switch to postcards if it's not it's not awesome just because postcards are a little cheaper than actual letters So I just want to save some money if the that list is not performing well Do you know where where are you pulling your lists from?

30:26Are you going to like a prop stream? Are you pulling these yourself from like county records? where are you pulling all these lists?

30:30Tony J. Robinson:Yeah, I was using PropStream quite a bit. I absolutely love PropStream. I think their interface is awesome. I've recently switched over to Resimply because they have list polling capabilities now too. So I switched over to them basically because I had like five or six different softwares trying to manage all of these different things. And it was just easier to keep everything in one. So I switched over to Resimply recently. Now, you also mentioned being able to track like response rates to specific campaigns. Is that managed inside of ReSimply as well? Or are you using some other sort of tracking to know, hey, these mailers went out to this list and here's a response rate for that specific mailing?

31:08Tony J. Robinson:I track that in ReSimply now, but I was just using an Excel spreadsheet when I first got started. But now in ReSimply, I just track it through there. So every letter that I send out, I will have a specific phone number dedicated to that. So I'll have a direct mail phone number for Cincinnati specific. I'll have a postcard phone number. So I'm able to track which leads are coming in from what marketing source. And then when I upload the list into resimply, cause there's this thing called list stacking and resimply where you can upload all of your lead lists and then tag it in a certain way. So like I will add tags to these lists for like, um, you know, if it, when I send out the, if they're being mailed to like what type of marketing source I'm doing for that list, when I've marketed to them, like usually I'll do the month and the year.

31:57Tony J. Robinson:Um, and then anything else that is specific to that list, like maybe it's, I don't know, like owners of two to four properties or more or something like that. Um, and so that's how I keep track of it. So, and then every month I can go in and look at my different tags and see which ones are performing. Same thing with the list. I'm able to see which leads came from which list source so that I'm able to then market to that list. Like, okay, the liens list is hitting really well this month, but the probate one isn't doing that great. So I'm going to change out my marketing to adjust for those changes.

32:29Tony J. Robinson:So different things like that.

32:30Ashley Kehr:Now, Janelle, those are all things that you can do remotely, especially with using the software that you're using. But what about the boots on the ground? How have you structured your team with you being remote and buying properties in Indiana and Ohio? What members do you have there?

32:45Tony J. Robinson:Yeah, so that took me a while. Lots of trial and error to figure out which people I even like to work with because that's also a big part of it is like figuring out who you gel well with because it is the main thing with managing a remote team is communication and if you do not have good communication with a team member then unfortunately you gotta let them go like no matter how much you like them you gotta let them go because it relies solely on communication and just making sure things are being done on time because they are your eyes and ears they are your boots on the ground they're supposed to be you when you're not there and if they're not getting back to you in a timely manner on things then it's going to be hard for you to do business.

33:24Tony J. Robinson:And so my main team members are my real estate agent, my contractor, and my property walker slash other wholesaler that I like to partner with. So I had my own property walker, but they transitioned into another job. So he kind of transitioned out. And so when I have this void, I just use other wholesaler friends in my area to help me take pictures, then I just give them a little bit of the fee if I need to. So, and they help me with like buyer walkthroughs and stuff like that. But we still handle all the negotiations with the seller. On that note, like the folks who are walking the properties for you, I know you said you're maybe splitting the assignment fee with them, but what happens if the deal doesn't close and they're just kind of, that's the risk that they're willing to take?

34:09Or are you paying them like, I'll pay you per hour? Like how does that actually work?

34:13Tony J. Robinson:If they're a wholesaler, then they understand the deal. They know exactly what's going to happen. You know, like it might fall through. It might not is what it is. If it's somebody that I'm just like hiring off of a Facebook group or like TaskRabbit or something, I don't know if I'm just like hiring a random person to take pictures for me, then I'll usually pay them a fee. And it's usually like 75 bucks for just some pictures because it doesn't take that long. It's like an hour's worth of their time, you know? So it shouldn't be that big of a problem. Now, Janelle, I think one of the biggest challenges is when you try and invest remotely for a lot of people, they want to have the warm and fuzzies about these properties before they buy them and they just want to see it.

34:50What's your response as someone who's in California, but you're investing in the Midwest? Do you not feel the need to see these properties in person beforehand? Or how do you get over that hump of doing that virtually?

35:01Tony J. Robinson:Yeah, no, I've never seen a property I bought remotely first before I bought it. They've all been sight unseen. And then I may have seen them when I'm just in town. And so that can be kind of scary. Like my first property that I bought out of state, I was terrified. I'm like, did I buy a burned down barn? Like, what did I do? Why did I do this? So it's pretty scary. But now I guess I kind of see them because whenever I have either my realtor or my contractor walk through a property, even a partner wholesaler that we're working a deal with, they'll usually FaceTime me in. And so and they'll point out the problems that they see or that they're facing or that we have to address or whatever it may be.

35:43Tony J. Robinson:So they'll just walk me through it virtually and that's usually how I see the property So i'm still able to physically see like okay The property that I saw in pictures is the one that my team is walking or whatever Uh to confirm it that way and then um, i'll also just have my team members send me pictures as well Pictures and video after they're done walking through it Just to make sure that i'm looking at the exact same property they walked through All right now a ricky has the channels but finding a lead isn't the same as actually closing a deal So next up janelle is going to walk us through the actual seller conversation itself, right?

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40:16So Janelle, I want to start with the seller conversation. So walk us through the actual approach. Let's say I send out a mailer, the phone actually rings, right? Someone's actually finally calling me back. What the heck do I say? Right? Because I think that's where most people get nervous. It's like, okay, they're calling, but what do I do now to actually capitalize on this deal? So what is your opening line look like?

40:38Tony J. Robinson:For sure. So when they call in, I usually answer the phone like, hello, this is Janelle Purple Lily Properties, or I have somebody on my team do that. Really? To be honest with you, I have somebody on my team do that. But then they say like, how can I help you or whatever? And then they say, I got a letter from you and it says, you're willing to give me an offer. And I want to know what that is. That's usually how it goes or something like that. They're usually pretty strong on the phone. They'll be like, okay, great. And then they'll either transfer over to me or my husband. We take that call or book an appointment to call them back.

41:05Tony J. Robinson:So, and then when we call them back or get on the phone with them, we know like, hi, Mr. Seller, I'm Janelle with Purple Lily Properties. We got your phone call and yes, we'd love to make an offer on your property. Can you tell me a little bit more about your property though, before I give you an offer. And then that's when we dive a little bit deeper into it. Because when I'm on the phone with a seller before I actually book an appointment, and that's the whole goal of that first conversation is to book an in-person appointment. I'm not the person to do the one call close. Like I don't, I just don't do that on the phone because I mean, I kind of have in the past, like once or twice, and I didn't love it because I just personally didn't feel like I was being truthful because my offer would always change after I walked through the property.

41:45Tony J. Robinson:And I'm like, I just can't do that. So I, I always try to get, uh, I look for four things when I'm on the phone with the sellers. They're called the four pillars. The first thing is their motivation. So why are they being interested in selling, right? Like what's the point? Why are they trying to get this? And you're usually wanting that motivation so that you can use that also to help you with negotiation, whether they have a time crunch, they need money for something, or they inherited a property that they don't want, whatever it is trying to figure that out. Then you're trying to figure out the condition of the property.

42:11Tony J. Robinson:Like what, what does it look like and to try and gauge that because people have missed, you know, just like a different view on what their property looks like. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. So I usually try to figure it out by asking like, have you done any renovations in the last five years? Has the roof been redone? Has the bathrooms, kitchens been redone within the last five years, different things like that. And if they tell me no, that I know it probably needs like to be at least updated at the very least, you know? So after that, I'm looking at their price. I want to know what price that they have in mind.

42:44Tony J. Robinson:If they've thought about price, I'm just trying to figure that out. Then I'm moving on to timeline. So I want to know how quickly they want to close. How quickly do they want this sale? Do they have time? Are they looking in two to three months to get it sold? Do they need it sold within a week because they're hitting a foreclosure deadline or whatever it may be? That's what I'm looking for. So those are the four main things, condition or motivation, condition price timeline. And I want to have usually at least two solid answers to those things before I book an appointment, because I've noticed that if I don't have at least two of those pillars, then usually they tend to be a little bit more of like tire kickers and don't really go anywhere.

43:22Tony J. Robinson:And I don't want to waste my team's time. So I like to have at least two of those. And then I will constantly build rapport, try to book an in-person appointment. And so thank you for this information. I'd love to just take a look at the property and just make sure that the offer I give you is fair. So based on what you told me, it sounds great. But again, I just love for my contractor to walk through my partner to walk through just to make sure I'm not wasting your time with my offer. So when is a good time to meet? Does Thursday at Thursday morning at 10 work or Friday afternoon at this time work?

43:52Tony J. Robinson:Always give them options. You don't want to just say one, what works best for you? Because I'll be like, Oh, I'll get back to you. And then they never do.

43:57Ashley Kehr:so you always want to give them a time have you used any of the ai features to actually take some of these calls like i know recently has ai call agents um do you use any of that i'm sure a lot

44:10Tony J. Robinson:of other platforms have them too so i am slowly starting to transition into that so recently literally just launched this maybe a week ago like more of an ai type of follow-up and so um i am slowly transitioning into that um i've noticed and this is like no hate on recently whatsoever whatsoever. They're awesome. I absolutely love them. I've used them for years. But whenever a software rolls out something new, there's usually some bugs and kinks. So I'm just kind of waiting for them to figure that out, you know, and just like make sure everything's good. And then like slowly transition my entire business model into that.

44:45Tony J. Robinson:But I am going to start using them specifically for drip campaigns and follow up sequences like that.

44:49Ashley Kehr:That was your excuse for waiting on a new MacBook Pro too, right? Tony, you wanted it to roll out for 10 years before you I'm great. That's exactly right. Let them work out the kinks. But for rookies who are sitting at home and they're maybe sold now on the idea of going off market to get their first or their next deal, but maybe they've got very limited budget. Let's just even say zero. Someone's sitting at home right now. They love the idea of investing in real estate, but they've got zero capital. They want to go lock up a deal, maybe wholesale it to generate some capital. What's the first thing that they should focus on to find an off market deal?

45:25Tony J. Robinson:Man, there are honestly a lot of ways to find off market deals without any marketing budget. So one of those ways is obviously contracting with a wholesaler and working and partnering with a wholesaler. I mean, they're already doing all the heavy lifting, right? So you can definitely go that route. You can even contact some realtors that have, I usually contact realtors that have fixers currently listed. And if they don't fit my buy box, that's totally fine. And I'll just let them know like, Hey, I'm looking for a property similar to this, but this one doesn't exactly fit my buy box because of XYZ.

45:54Tony J. Robinson:So do you have anything that would work for me or anything that's coming up that you know of? And just constantly following up with them to see if that lead source hits. And if not, then you can also look on Zillow for the for sale by owners because those are technically off market too. And you know, those sellers are interested in selling, right? They have it listed. They just haven't listed with an agent, but that is still considered an off market deal because it's just a for sale by owner. And then another easy, quick way is still by using Zillow, but you are actually going to look for the properties that are listed for rent instead.

46:27Tony J. Robinson:So you look for properties that are listed for rent that need some work, need some love. Some of them do, right? They're not super great. And you know that owner has a pain point, right? They have a vacancy and who knows what it took to actually get that property vacant. Maybe they had to go through a terrible eviction, terrible remodel, terrible whatever to get it list ready. And they might be a tired landlord. So might as well shoot your shot and ask them to be interested in selling instead of renting out the property. I like that approach of going after the ones that are listed for rent. I've actually, I've never thought about that.

46:58I have folks who are in the short-term rental space who do that where they'll go after these kind of larger properties that are for rent and then pitch them. Hey, if you rent this as a short-term rental, you'll get X amount. But I like the idea of going back to those. So it's because they're renting because they tried to sell and it couldn't sell. So I like that approach. But I think the last question, Janelle, and this is more so just a level set expectations for folks who want to get into this. How much time? So, you know, someone starts today and they say, I want to get my first off-market deal.

47:28How much time should they realistically budget for that to actually happen? Like if I start today, can I have a deal by next week or is it going to take five years? Like how much time does it take to get to that first off-market deal?

47:39Tony J. Robinson:Yeah. I mean, you definitely could have it within next week, but you have to be working your tail off to do that. You know, like you can't just be like, oh, I'm going to do this for an hour this week and then have a deal by next week. Like that's not how it works. You know, you, it depends on how much time on a daily or weekly basis that you have to dedicate to this, especially if you're wanting a wholesale or do something like that. It is very time intensive and that's why you don't necessarily need as much money to get started with that. Right. It's usually a trade-off of time or money for stuff like this and investing in real estate.

48:10Tony J. Robinson:And so, um, I would say if you can have like at least, I would say minimum 10 to 15 hours a week dedicated to this, if you can, um, maybe five, but just know that if you have less time invested, it's going to take you a little bit longer to find a deal. You will find one if you stay consistent and do these steps, but it's just going to take a little bit more time. So just keep that in mind.

48:31Ashley Kehr:Well, Janelle, thank you so much for joining us today on Real Estate Rookie. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you and find out more information about what you are doing in real estate?

48:40Tony J. Robinson:Yes. So my best platform to reach me is Janelle Invest on Instagram. That's where I'm most active, I'd say. I'm also on TikTok, Janelle Invest, the exact same. But I usually answer my Instagram DMs faster than my TikTok DMs. So sorry about that if you are DMing me on TikTok.

48:58Ashley Kehr:Well, Janelle, I remember even like years ago watching your TikToks and how creative they were. I love them. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. We really enjoyed having you on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. Thank you guys for listening to Real Estate Rookie. I'm Ashley. He's Tony. And we'll see you guys on the next episode. Hey, rookies, if you're watching this, we want you to apply to be a guest on the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. That's right. Ashley and I are looking for amazing stories just like yours to be a part of our Real Estate Rookie Podcast. Now look, you don't need to be an expert.

49:32You don't need to have done thousands of deals. Even if you've done one deal, your story could help inspire the next listener.

49:37Ashley Kehr:As a rookie investor, especially if you just got your first deal, it is all fresh in your minds and you are the best person to tell your story, give your experience on how you got it done to help someone else get their first deal. So head over to biggerpockets.com slash guest if you want to be a part of our show. Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash guest and we'd love to have you on.