They Were Right in 2008, Now They’re Saying to Buy in 2026 w/ Thach Nguyen & James Dainard

26:27really do your research and know your market. What's it? Because, you know, every market and every city in that market is different. Like I was talking to a student yesterday in this one section of Florida and that one section of Florida has a lot more inventory than Tampa, right? And so, and they label it. You know, the market is really, really, really bad and tough. And I say, where do you live? She lived in this one area in Florida, down in South Florida, but she lived in what I call the boonies, right? Of course, out there, right? There's a lot of inventory out there, but go to Tampa. You can't find a house, you know, you can't find listings.

27:10It's tight. Go to Orlando, it's tight. So know your market, okay? Understand it. Know your time on market. Know what's selling, what product is selling, you know? Know that. Understand that real estate is a cycle, right? It always go up, always go down. But I think the most important question they're going to ask themselves, a rookie, is, what's my extra strategy when I invest in real estate? Am I buying to fix and flip? Or am I buying to hold for long-term rental? This is what Saul said to me a million times. If you're buying long-term rental, it is playing the long game. Even if you pay$10 ,000,$20 ,000 more today, even if the market go down$10 ,000,$15 ,000,$20 ,000,$30 ,000, 10, 20 years from now, it looks like pennies.

28:03So you're playing the long game, right? It's not that big of a deal. If you're playing the flip game, know your market, just like you know you're playing the long game but flip game make sure you buy it in a good market and a good product so that if you're going to get in and get out right get good margin on it right stay in the area where you know the product is moving don't go buy in a Timbuktu somewhere it takes forever know that but if you're buying for long-term rental right 10 20 years from now you look like a genius that's I love that point because I mean it almost mimics what people say about the stock market.

28:37It's like, you don't buy a stock and try and sell it tomorrow. You buy it, hold it for 30 years, and then you make a lot of money at the end of it. But you talked a little bit about like exit strategies, knowing your market. How are you changing how you're underwriting deals today compared to when the market was super hot a few years ago? Like, are you looking at, you know, maybe different cash on cash returns or shorter hold periods? Like what's changed about how you're underwriting deals right now? For me, number one, I really focus on buying in the B market. That's rule number one for me. I get deal come across my table every day and when it's in anything less than a B minus, C plus, I just said, I'm not interested.

29:17And this is what I learned from Saul. Right? You don't have to do a lot of deal. All you got to do a few good deal and you'd be set. The problem is everybody trying to do so many deal and they buy everything and everything. You know what I mean? Okay, I'll take some of that. I'll take some of that. I'll take some of that. Just find some good deal. It's okay, right? In order for you to do 100 deal like James, you have to live through it to be able to do that. But don't go jumping in tomorrow and want to do 50 deals. So buy everything and everything. You know what I mean? So for me, know where the good area is.

29:53And for me, every deal that I do, I got to get at least 20 % gross margin. If I'm flipping a deal, after all expense, I got to get at least 20%. If I'm buying a house to fix and hold, after all costs, right? The equity I built, I got to be at least 20 plus percent in equity in those deals, right? Now for me, what I'm doing today now is I'm buying ugly houses. So I get a good deal on that and I add value to the house, right? I'm rehabbing it, add more bedroom bath if I need to. And then today, right? I'm adding more units to it because I'm doing the ADU play and I keep those as long-term. And so 10, 20 years from now, Now, when the market is getting more tighter on housing, right, I'm going to look like a genius.

30:42So, again, this is why it's important. If you're buying for a hold, there's a different strategy. If you buy for a flip, there's a different strategy. But bottom line is, if you're buying anything in today's market, don't try to buy everything. You don't need to do everything. Just do a few good deals. So stick to the good area and try to get good margins up front, right? No rates will come down soon. It will come down soon. It's coming. So if you buy for long term, it's okay to buy with a little bit high interest rate. But it will come down. You refi it later. But right now, if everybody's scared, it's okay.

31:17You get a better opportunity to buy more deals with everybody in the frenzy. Because when the frenzy, me and James hate it. because we got a lot of inexperienced investor buying shit at stupid prices and waiving feasibility. Like we can't compete with those people. So we let them have it. And those are the people who always get hurt when the market turns. And then they're the ones who cause a lot of the craziness around town. Hey, question, Thatch. Like, so you're at 20 % now, like three years ago when rates were low, what was your number then, right? Like, cause that's the thing. We got to adjust our numbers with market conditions.

31:51We're building in risk into how we look at a deal, right? So like with flipping, I targeted a 35 % return. Right now, I'm at 45 % because there's more risk in the deal. So if it's got more juice and more meat on the bone, I'll buy it today. Four years ago, market was great. I'd get a little thin on it. Yeah, and when I mean 20 % profit, meaning if I bought something and I'm all in for$800 ,000, it's worth a million bucks, that's 20%, right? That's 20 % profit. I got to make at least 20 % profit in a good area, but I don't go out to the high-end market. I do that for James. I go out to the everyday market.

32:26I get in and out in 90 days, right? 20 % good money, but it has to be in a good area. Otherwise, I'm not even messing with it. If somebody give me a C area and I think it's a good floor plan, I'm going to need probably 25%, 30 % margin. Otherwise, I don't touch it. Now, new construction is different because it takes longer, so I need bigger margins. Right now, I got so many people shopping deal for me, James. Hey, Dad, you want to buy this property? you can put two pack or three packers in a new construction, 80U here and there. Now look at the margins, like 15 % margin, bro. No wonder why they host selling it.

32:54Last night I got a, somebody sent me over a micro apartment, right? Asking some stupid prices, right? I'm like, and dude, you missed the, you missed the time of micro apartment. It's gone now. Right? So again, that's why they host selling because they're just, they didn't get the price low enough. There's not a lot of money in development right now. I'll tell you that much. Now, James, we're hearing the word of buyer's market, seller's market. We're transitioning to a buyer's market. What is your take on this? And what are you seeing in general across the country? Are we in a buyer's market or are we headed towards one?

33:27You know, buyer's market that's, you know, for me, I like a buyer's market. I get to pick the deals that I want to do. Like when the market was frenzy mode, you kind of buy what you could get. And, you know, like, so for right now, how do I mitigate risk? Buyer's market gives me a lot more inventory to look at. The only types of deals that I'm buying right now has nothing to do with price point, has nothing to do with location. I just want to make sure it's a good house that doesn't have any negative factors on it. It's easy to resale, but also that my contractors are good at. I buy based on what my teams are good at, not based on what I want to buy.

34:02And so when you do that, you can shop it out. And I will say I've been able to purchase a lot more properties the last 60 days. I would say over the last 90 days since the market got bad, I have bought more deals than I did all of the year before. Wow. And are those to flip or to buy and hold? Both. We've bought in apartments. We've bought in, you know, there's very good deals on apartments. Like we've bought in some burnout apartments with, you know, not financeable, heavy construction, freaks people out. I mean, that's, we just paid 110 grand a door in Belltown. Now that's an A market. Those units are worth$450 ,000 a pop in the hot market with low rates.

34:46So there's opportunity there. And it's that heavy rehab. And so we're buying apartments. We're buying developments still. And we're buying a lot of flips. And it's just whatever the margins are at, we're going with. There's opportunities everywhere. And so buyer's market, yes, I do, because we're getting a lot of deals. My phone is burning up with wholesalers going, hey, James, I haven't talked to this guy in two years. And he's like, hey, I got all these deals because they can't move them, right? Which allows us to get a better deal. Now, when we go to sell, I don't care if it's a buyer's or seller's market.

35:17I just have to plan accordingly when I'm buying up front. I can say since June, I've increased my hold time projections by 25%. That's adding two to three months onto every hold that I have. I'm also increasing my construction costs by 10 % because we've got a floating tariff going on. We don't know when it's going to hit, when it's not going to hit. And so we just have to build these things into the risk. And then I've increased my return going, I want to make more per deal. And if it hits that stress test, why wouldn't I want to buy that? And so, you know, it is definitely a buyer. I wouldn't say it's a buyer's market.

35:55I think it's a balanced market. And, you know, I think when people throw that out, it's because they bought something bad and they can't sell their house. It's, you have to look at the data. The data says, what, there's like three to four months of inventory right now. in most markets, that's fairly balanced. Six months is when it really starts to go to a buyer's market. And so we're approaching, we're just not in an aggressive seller market right now where the sellers had all the power. And so, you know, buy good assets, build it into your performa. And if it's a buyer's market, that means that there's better deals for us anyways.

36:28Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's a balanced market. I don't think it's a whole, all seller market. You know, right now, some type of product are like in Seattle, how ugly house with big yard that you do ADUs on, right? They can't, they can't, the moment you hit the market, they get multiple offer. That's a seller's market, right? You get an everyday house that needs some work. It's more of a neutral market. But if you take a look at the overall real estate market, just everyday people buying and selling, it's more of a neutral market, right? The seller don't have all the upper edge, buyer don't have all the upper edge.

37:01either. And I think you guys are making a very important point for rookies right now, because a lot of people who are listening, maybe they were trying to get started when the market was going crazy. And that potentially discouraged them because they couldn't get a deal. But now we're at this point where sellers are willing to entertain reasonable offers on their properties. And I think one of the messages that Ash and I keep trying to drive is if you find a deal, don't even really worry about what the listing price is right now. Just underwrite it, whatever number makes the most sense to you and then offer even below that number, because the worst they're going to say is no.

37:35At best, they say yes, but the most likely scenario is that they start negotiating with you. And then you're able to start taking that conversation and letting it actually lead somewhere. So it sounds like both of you are kind of echoing the same thoughts there. Yeah, I think a seller, the media is actually a trained seller. The market is soft. So I think that's why it's actually easier to negotiate when the media is saying things are friends, everything's selling off within one day, $100 ,000,$200 ,000 over asking price, then the seller's trying to stick tight to their property. You know what I mean?

38:04So that's why it's funny. Investor, they want to buy on the media. Say, it's a great time to buy, and they don't realize they're fighting against all the other dumb ass. And I think it's important, especially in the world we live in now where people are online, they're looking up to people that have bought in all sorts of different things. What you have to remember is people built wealth when the market wasn't red hot. They built wealth because they bought on a dip. And then when the market accelerated, that's when they, you know, I didn't do well when I bought a bunch of properties in 2019-20.

38:36I did well because I bought a bunch of properties in 2010 and 11 and 12. They hit the accelerator on the gas during those times. And so this is the time to really pick up better buys right now. And the numbers aren't going to be sexy. They're not. but if like right now if i can buy below replacement cost i've been able to do that a long time like i can buy this for 150 a square foot i it cost me 300 to build this why wouldn't i buy that and take a hard look at that and so you know that's the thing to remember don't buy on the now buy on the location buy is this good value does it like you know that's where you do well in 10 years it's not instant gratification in real estate like we've seen We got that for two years because of the pandemic.

39:23It is a long-term road. And if you get in now and you buy consistently, that's how you come out the other end. You got to have both foot in if you play in this game. You can't be buying long-term rental as a side hustle. Because the moment you hit a speed bump or a turtle on the street, you're like, that's all the reason why I shouldn't be investing in real estate. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I mean, I agree with James. You can buy something for cheaper than replacement. But again, you have to have the long-term mindset game. The problem with social media is I can go out there and then all of a sudden on my next slide on social media, I'm driving a Ferrari.

40:02And now everybody's coming through. They all want instant gratification when they don't realize the most successful real estate investor. they ain't fucking a bunch of young bucks at 20 years old right with you know millions and millions and hundreds of millions out of the real estate portfolio it didn't happen overnight you know what i mean they all bought during the downtime and they ride it out so just know everybody this is a mindset game more than anything that's i love that advice because i think social media has definitely skewed the perception of what it actually means to be successful but what you guys are saying is that now really is a good time to invest so now i think The next question is, how do you build something that can last through the next storm, right?

40:43Because we know it's a cycle. How do we get to the next storm? That's what we'll cover right after a word from today's show sponsors. At some point, your little real estate side hustle stops feeling little. Rent's coming in. Maybe you've got a couple properties now. And suddenly, the money part gets real. Your tax bill's going up. You're Googling LLC versus S Corp at midnight. And you're just hoping you didn't miss something that'll cost you later. That's where Collective comes in. Collective is the first all-in-one financial solution built exclusively for solopreneurs. saving you time and money.

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44:32So you mentor a lot of new real estate investors who are doing this for the first time. What's the biggest mistake you see them make? And that's, we'll start with you. I think the biggest mistake is that they all want to happen like now. Right. They all want to go out there and like have$10 ,000,$20 ,000,$30 ,000 passive income now. Right. And they don't realize, right, you got to accumulate some. And then as you accumulate them, you can. right you can see the cash flow get bigger and bigger right um the other thing i see that a lot of investors are like oh i don't want to buy rentals because you know three hundred dollars five hundred dollars on one house you know before it's paid off ain't moving the needle so i'm just going to just do fix and flip fix and flip and then next thing they know they become a full-time just active income job it just become a higher level job and then then 10 20 years later down the road, right?

45:30They're in the same spot. A lot of people don't see James. James used fix and flip as the vehicle to actually, two things, one, to source deal and two, to actually use that money to buy long-term rentals, right? And that's the problem with a lot of the young folks coming here. They think that the game is fix and flip. No, fix and flip is a vehicle to long-term wealth. Jimmy, what about for you? You know, I think like what that said, it's just that you have to buy in along and find out kind of where the opportunities are and what vehicles you want to pick, right? And no matter what you're doing, you know, because I always try to think back, okay, when I was new, what do I need to really get moving forward?

46:12And it was access to capital. That was the first thing. I needed money because I was 22. No one wanted to give me money, you know, and the red Robin tips weren't, they weren't covering. Um, and so, you know, I think that's the biggest thing. Go get set up, get your financing in order. Why are people really struggling right now? They didn't lock their debt. They're on floating loans and their deals are getting destroyed. So how do you hedge against that? Lock your debt, get set up with the right amount of capital and don't force a deal. Can you just break that down for a rookie? Would that mean real quick?

46:52Yeah. Yeah. We want to take away the variables from a deal. And so if I'm looking at a rental property and I get the special loan and I can buy this house and my loan, and it works really well when I got a 5.5 % loan and I can get a DSCR loan that's fixed for two years and then it's going to change into a variable rate. It could go up. It could go down. That's where the risk is. we don't know what's going to happen. And if you want, and so how we, you know, it kind of blew my mind that so many people are in variable debt going through these deals because as investors, we're buying math, we're buying a performa.

47:31And if the debt goes up and down, we really can't project, you know, we're speculating at that point. We can't go, this is what I'm going to make. And it, you know, like if Thatch has a bunch of rental properties, he wants to know what his monthly payment is and what his income is going to be, that tells him his cash flow. When rates go up and you're not locked in, your cash flow goes away. And that's why there's a lot of people in trouble right now. And so the things to mitigate that is lock your debt. Like when you're buying today, my numbers shouldn't change. You know, and then don't build in a bunch of appreciation and projections.

48:08Like you don't need to speculate. Just buy on today. What will it run for? What's my payment? What's my taxes? What's my insurance? Do I like that cash flow? Yes or no. You overthink the deal and try to force it. That's where you can get in trouble. So just secure it, lock it, and buy in today. And if you like it, it's a good buy. Yeah, and not buying based on future projections, based on like you should run your numbers and not be like, okay, I'm only losing$200 now. But when interest rates drop, then I'll refinance. Then I'll make money. You need to make your purchase price based on today's numbers and how it'll work for you.

48:45So we just had Leica Devtha on recently, and she talked about how she had bought in one year, $11 million homes, flipped them, but in total, she only made$100 ,000. And one of the things she talked to us about is scaling too fast and knowing what is actually sustainable. So how do you both measure sustainable growth where that system isn't going to break? Thatch, let's start with you. Oh man. I think you got to have an A team, right? I think, I think, um, you got to have a good general contractor. You got to have some good subs. You got to have people that, you know, that has been, you know, obviously if you knew, you got to find a good general contractor, a good general contractor.

49:28And let me tell you something, do not be cheap paying a general contractor. Okay. That's rule number one. The problem with new, new, new investor, they try to go find the cheapest contractor. And what happened is they get their ass kicked every single time. They get what they're paid for, right? All the time, man. You know, they get delays. They have, you know, just the delay costs money, let alone, oh, you were under budget or this and that, right? Over budget, whatever. But get a good general contractor, right the good general contractor will have good subs are reliable bad general contractor have their mom and their brother and sister are general uh subs you know what i mean it just it just right um good get a good designer good property manager get a good agent you know to understand the market so for me you got to build a real good a team and um and then know your market right um i think how fast you go is how good your team is going to be because they're the one who's going to slow you down.

50:28Okay. Yeah. And I think, you know, going big, this is what I tell people a lot. Cause people go, Oh wow. You got all these businesses going on. I want to be you. I'm like, I don't know if you really want to be me. Nobody wants to work as much as you. Yeah. I'm, I'm wired a weird way and it's not for everybody and that's okay. Right. Like, but there's a sweet spot and we don't have to take over the world playing your sweet spot. Right. Like if I, I do know, like my team can manage a certain amount of flips. Once I go past that, all my flips become inefficient, or we can do a certain amount of apartment rehabs at one time, or we become inefficient.

51:05And then we have to make a choice. Do we want to take on more expense and more employees? And then we have to load up even more and force it because you have to cover your cost, or there's always that magical sweet spot. And the thing I've learned is when I get deal goggles and I go past that sweet spot, things become inefficient. The wheels come off because you physically don't have the time to manage things like you need to. Fix and flip is a very high management business. I don't care what people say. That's how you control your cost. I still shop for faucets on Amazon late at night for my team, like just to keep those costs down, right?

51:41If you're not in that business and you don't go and you get to a certain amount of projects and you're not there to manage it, that's where you're doing more and you're making less. And that's what I've really learned. Right now, we have about 20. No, because we've got the zombie flip show going right now. And so it's like we have about 35 projects going. That's past our sweet spot. we are typically 20 25 at a time is right where my team can hum or i gotta hire another project manager and then we're running 40 to 50 but it's you know just don't don't force it and it will be okay i agree one of the things i know that jane people they tend to you know like let's say you go past 30 you gotta start getting the property manager i mean there's another superintendent or another project manager come in, right?

52:32They go and they're trying to hurry up and go get more deal and they haven't really stabilized a good project manager or a superintendent yet, even work them through the system at least once or twice. Because just because you get a new project manager or superintendent does not mean that person is good or working well with the team, right? So they just hire a superintendent. They go, oh yeah, I got a superintendent. They don't know how good he is. And they go, they're trying to lower more deal, more deal, kind of find out that superintendent wasn't that great and it's caused a lot of issue, but they got all this deal and they can't afford to let somebody know either to keep this guy and work with it, the whole team hate him, or you get rid of him, then you're going to suffer.

53:09So be careful how fast you scale. Also, you know, how fast you bring in your team, how well they get trained, how good they work with everybody else. It plays a big role. This is why I always say, right, you don't need to do a lot of deals. You just need to do a few good deal. And a few can be 10, 20 a year, but don't try to be someone that you see on stage or social media and try to do it overnight. You know, don't get drunk on the performers because that's what happens, right? We all go, Hey, how do we scale? How do we take over? How do we get to that next level? You take a performer that you're really good at doing like, Oh, Hey, look, I'm doing three houses at a time and I'm crushing it.

53:52What happens when I do 20 and you look at that perform and you build that out you model it out but you forget all the things that come along with that and and so that's what happens we get we look at performance and performance lie guys they will they'll they'll tell you different things right like it's like because you see it and you're not factoring for all the outside stuff off the performance and in take your time you don't need to be the biggest i mean if i could unwound my journey in real estate i would have took my Hey, business is all the 50 % of where I'm at right now. Now I'm so far deep into it.

54:28We have a lot of good employees, a lot of good staff. I'll never change that, but it's, you know, there, there is a sweet spot. And I honestly probably could have done half as many deals and made twice as much money as I made the last 15 years. And, and, you know, so don't always listen to what's going on online. Like, Oh, go bigger, go bigger. They're blowing smoke half the time. Cause the last time they count, just like you said, they count how much, you know, I it$12 million, but I made$100 ,000, right? So on social media, they always talk about the gross number or how many transactions I do, but nobody really talks about the real net at the end of the day.

55:07Well, Thatch and James, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Thatch, where can people reach out to you and find out more information? They can just go on social media. That's my name, Thatch Wynn. They can find me in Instagram, YouTube. It's all the same thing. That's when. And James, what about you? Yeah. Instagram, I think. No. J. Dane flips on Instagram. And also the On the Market podcast, the best real estate podcast on the planet. And also on their TV, right? Oh, yes. Yeah. And there's a million dollars on. We're filming season two. I will say this is next level what we're doing right now.

55:48million dollar zombie flips a and e these houses i've been going through these houses they're so messed up i have a rash that hasn't gone away in eight weeks i think i yeah i i probably need to check that out if you're not on youtube right now and you're listening to this car in your car james just stripped down and is showing us where his rash is well thank you guys so much for joining us we always appreciate having you both on the podcast thank you so much i'm ashley he's tony and we'll catch you guys on the next episode of Real Estate Rookie. At some point, your little real estate side hustle stops feeling little.

56:22Rent's coming in, maybe you've got a couple properties now, and suddenly the money part gets real. Your tax bill's going up, you're Googling LLC versus S Corp at midnight, and you're just hoping you didn't miss something that'll cost you later. That's where Collective comes in. Collective is the first all-in-one financial solution built exclusively for solopreneurs, saving you time and money. They help you structure your business for success, whether that's forming a single-member LLC or adding an S-Corp election. Collective's AI engine, backed by expert oversight, automatically categorizes every expense so you never miss a deduction.

56:54Beyond bookkeeping, they handle quarterly tax estimates and prepare both your business and personal tax returns. So you never miss a deadline. You'll also get integrated invoicing plus seamless payroll for S-Corp owners, which can unlock thousands in self-employment tax savings. And with Collective's community and support, you can finally take the solo out of solopreneur. Right now, Collective is giving you 50 % off your first two months when you go to collective.com slash rookie. That's 50 % off your first two months at collective.com slash rookie. Hey, rookies, if you're watching this, we want you to apply to be a guest on the Real Estate Rookie podcast.

57:27That's right. Ashley and I are looking for amazing stories just like yours to be a part of our Real Estate Rookie podcast. Now, look, you don't need to be an expert. You don't need to have done thousands of deals. Even if you've done one deal, your story could help inspire the next listener. As a rookie investor, especially if you just got your first deal, it is all fresh in your minds and you are the best person to tell your story, give your experience on how you got it done to help someone else get their first deal. So head over to biggerpockets.com slash guest if you want to be a part of our show.

57:57Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash guest. And we'd love to have you on.