The Fastest Growing SaaS Startup In History: $1M to $1B Revenue In 4 Years | Shuo Wang, Deel

36:40So during COVID, everything was shut down. But we want to set up, create entities for as many countries as possible. Like governments weren't working? Exactly. We need a government to open for deal. That was such a big pinpoint. You have no idea. It's like, why can't we operate? It's like the government doesn't work. If one country, the government was closed, then we need to figure out, OK, so what are some other countries that are actually open and we can open entities right now. Which countries did you try to go to and they just weren't open? Oh, there were so many. I was like, during that time, barely any government was operating because everyone was working from home.

37:28And then opening an entity in certain country is just not a priority, if that makes sense. Yeah, people are more care about health and their own well-being, which makes a lot of sense. Surviving. Yeah, surviving. Yeah. And I remember there was this time we need to set up an entity in Europe, and then I need to have my document verified. I need to have a passport verified. I need to have a POA that I need to sign. And then I need to sign a lot of paperwork. And then, but one, I forgot what is the specific term, but if I get my passport verified, I have to go to an agency that is like, you know, a federal agency to get that done.

38:22And then - Like notarized or stamped or something? Yeah, not only notarized, it's online. I forgot. I will find it and I will let you know. But like, you know, in that one, you cannot do it online. You have to be in person. But you couldn't go to the country because it was locked down. Yeah, you cannot go to the country. And then I finally searched for every single state possible in the US to see which state agency is open so that I can get my document verified. And I realized New York is actually open. And then I called them. And then they said, OK, but we have a wait list. The wait list is about two weeks.

39:00I was like, I cannot wait for two weeks. We need to get things going. Like two weeks is like, you know. I mean, every single time you have to do something, it takes two weeks. You're not going to get anywhere. Yeah, it takes two weeks. And then I need to get these 10 countries live, like literally within two weeks. I cannot wait for two weeks. And I did additional search. I find another third party agency works with the New York agency. And then I called them. And then I said, I need all of this done and then verified and then printed and then signed within two days. Can you guys do that? They were like, yes.

39:37And then I was like, OK, so if you can do that within two days, maybe instead of 10 copies, I want to order 50 copies. What if in the future I want to operate in 50 different countries? I don't need to go through this. Can we just go front load the pain, basically? So basically that was the hike. Yeah. What were some other things where some process should have taken weeks or months, but you were able to like squeeze it down to days or even hours because of just like going outside, not going outside the rules exactly, but basically figuring out loopholes? This is such a great question. So I explained earlier what is an EOR model, right, which is called the employer of record.

40:20That means we have to hire full-time employee on DOO entity on behalf of our clients. So whenever a client has a need, say, I need to hire this employee right now in this country, and then DOO needs to be there. And then during early days of DOO, we only have a number of countries live, And then we have our own entity. We're just starting to expand. I remember one client come to us and say that, OK, I have a really good software engineer that I need to hire in Hungary. We do not have an office in Hungary. You guys need to figure it out. And then this engineer needs to be able to sign with us within two weeks.

41:14Two weeks. Two weeks. Otherwise, their offer would expire. It's so competitive to hire software engineers at the time. And then we were like, OK, they are probably the biggest client to us at the time early days of deal. And then we said, OK, yeah, of course, we'll figure it out for you. So literally, we sent the team to Hungary. And as I mentioned, government, not everyone was operating at the time. We literally tried every single resource possible to open an entity in Hungary. And I imagine at the same time, COVID is in full force. And so I imagine getting the travel documents to even enter the country, having nasal swabs.

42:05I don't even know if that was a thing at that point in time. Yeah, yeah. We have, like, you know, luckily we have local employees in Hungary that, like, you know, can help us. But our ops team still needs to travel and then, like, you know, open the office in Hungary. And we made that happen. Yeah. And we were able to hire this employee on behalf of our clients. How did you make that happen in that, like, two week period? Yeah, two week period. Like, you know, we just figure out, like, you know, OK, what documents that are needed to open entity in Hungary? And what are the best law firms that we can work with?

42:43And then you know how law firms operate, right? So it takes time. Yeah, especially if you just call them, they say, yeah, sure. Let's make an appointment. How about two weeks from now? Like two weeks from now. Exactly. And we were like, no, we can't wait for two weeks. We need to have a meeting right now. And then that's why we have to be on set. Like if we're in front of the lawyers, things are happening much faster. Literally, we hustled and we tried every single possible angle, and we made it happen for our clients so that they do not lose that talent. It was very competitive to hire good talent.

43:25Yeah. Especially, I mean, this was like end of 2020, right? Yeah, exactly. End of 2020, early 2021. Yeah, I don't know if you still remember the crazy days, the crazy evaluations of 2021s. Yeah. The money was flowing. Yeah, money was flowing. Yeah. I have the same thing where whenever someone texts me or tries to like schedule a meeting, they default, I don't know why people do this, but they default to saying like, hey, here's my Kellanly. And the first opening is probably a week or two out or even like later than that. And what I do is I just like text them and say, here's, or email them. I say, here's my phone number.

43:59Just give me a call whenever. And if they don't answer, I'll call back. Yeah. Yeah. And most of the time you can kind of like the only meetings that I've ever missed have been, you know, I, I tried to do that. And then they were like, no, no, let's actually do two weeks out. And of course I never have the two week out meetings. So I just like forgot. Yeah. What other things did you do, especially during COVID to kind of keep the growth going through that? Like very, you know, very difficult time. Governments are shut down. Things aren't working. Yeah. I think we just have also, like, you know, at the time, many people are working from home.

44:34Yeah. Yeah. And then people start to realize that if we can manage a team from home remotely, and then we should be able to hire and manage the team everywhere. Yeah. And then that is when, like, you know, people start to think, okay, I can really start to hire talent elsewhere, not only within the same city, but also remotely and distrially across multiple different locations. Yeah, that is where we see a true product market fit. And then, either the time I told Alex and either the time that I told my team, this is a lifetime opportunity. We do not see the product market fit. we do not see the time and we do not see like you know the demand of the market like you know this is probably the only time that we will experience like you know right now so where like every other business it's like very like a restaurant or something it's very like difficult uh suddenly this is like the perfect trifecta exactly exactly exactly everything uh everything is there for you right and you just need to be ready and execute yeah that's literally what yeah like you know I told the team and then everyone is super excited and then everyone works super super hard and then execute and then yeah so I was like you know very very thankful and grateful for the team as well yeah and then there's one culture at the deal which we call deal speed so that means like you know We move very fast.

46:19We focus on execution, and we focus on problem solving. We identify the problems. We figure out the solutions for the problem, and then we execute on the solutions. Yeah. If you have to think through the situations that you've been in, what is the best example of what deal speed actually looks like in practice? Deal speed spreads across the entire company, And then product is customer experiences. And then it's like, you know, payment and transactions on time. Yeah. And then product, when it comes to product, it means like, you know, we ship fast. And then if clients has a product and then has a need, and then we understand that their need.

47:06And then we come up with like, you know, product. Solution as fast as possible. Yeah. up with products and we ship those products we ship the features for our clients yeah if clients has a problem or like you know have a question about the deal they come to us and we need to solve their problem as fast as possible and then as i like as i shared with you earlier the examples of like how we open entities out there right so within one year we opened within one year. And then with the condition that the government was shutting down, right? We're closed, right? We still opened 100 plus entities across 80 different countries within one year.

47:52So like one almost every three days? Yes, yeah. Outside of the Hungary story, what other things that shouldn't have been possible have you been able to make possible just by thinking outside the box? In Argentina or Brazil, To hire as full-time employees, in general, to hire talents as full-time employees, they need to get paid within their local currency. And then if you're hired in the US, you need to get paid in USD. If you're hired in England, you need to get paid in British pounds. If you get hired in Mexico, you need to get paid in pesos. There are countries out there that their currency are not strong enough, and it does a depreciation They appreciate it.

48:39So fast. So a lot of really good companies and talents that they want to pay and then get paid in a stronger currency, for example, USD or Euro. But the thing is, in order to hire them as a full-time employee, it is really hard to navigate the compliance and then gather the lessons and then actually gather the documents so that you can pay a different form of currency. So that is literally we learned, okay, so this is what our clients want. And then if they can offer USD payments or USD salary in USD format, they will be able to hire really strong talent. And then they will be able to compete with other companies.

49:31So we receive that feedback and we receive that requirement. and we navigate through local compliance and we'll figure out who we need to talk with, what kind of paperwork and permit and documents that we need to apply and the licenses so that we can make it happen. And then so today, like, you know, take Argentina, for example. We are able to pay employees in USD versus just their local currency. Yeah, and then many people are very, very happy about to deal with services just because of that yeah i know for the first like 400 employees you basically interviewed every single person to make sure they kind of fit the culture how did you decide to do that and then what were you looking for i uh alex and i we believe um alex and i we believe like you know talents are very important yeah and then uh So the employees, our deal people, deal employees define the culture of deal.

50:35And then, as I mentioned earlier, our culture, deal speed. And then also another one that which I really like is default optimism. So default optimism means we're happy people. We want to hire happy people. MARK MANDELAVYIERAANI - Which seems pretty obvious, but not everyone has that. NICHOLAS RODGERSHIPPENHAI - Yeah, not everyone has that. We're happy people. We want to hire happy people. And then we want to hire people who are optimistic about, like, you know, every, like, you know. Like when problems happen, they're trying to figure out solutions instead of saying, like, it's over. Exactly, yeah.

51:12And then even for the toughest of problems out there, there are solutions that we can come up with to solve the problems, right? So, like, you know, those are the two cultures that I really love. And another culture, of course, is called the joining care. So we care for our clients and we care for other employees and then build a really good team culture there. How do you screen for happiness during an interview? You know, trust me, you know. You guys are all very happy people. Like, you know, it's about, you know, how if they're curious about, like, you know, and then if they are really good at problem solving.

51:53Yeah, those are typical of the things that I'm looking for. And then you're right that we interviewed the first 400 employees at Dio. And then that is around several thousand that we talked with. And then through that process, you can't know what we're looking for when it comes to hiring. And then what we're looking for when we build this team, when we build this company. Yeah, and then that definitely defined the culture of Dior. And I think almost like, you know, 60 to 70 % of the first employees are still with Dior today. Yeah, and then we built a really good career path for them as well. So I have, because I manage sales team, and then I have SDRs that I hired with, like, you know, the first SDRs, now they're, like, you know, directors at the deal, like, you know, within the past five years.

52:59Yeah. How do you think about kind of career progression and helping people stay with you over the long term? Yeah. I think I give you a really good example.

53:13And then he is our head of crypto today. And then when he first interviewed with us, he was thinking about joining me as a SDR, which is a very junior role. That was five years ago. And then I realized that theory is actually very analytical and very system and processes driven. So I recommended the theory to work for our biz ops team. Yeah. And then our COO, like, you know, took him and then gave him, like, you know, different projects for him to work on, right? Build the best processes possible and then come up with the rest systems. Yeah. And then during that journey, and then he can, like, you know, learned all the complicated on the problems with operational wise within deal.

54:08And then he built a really, really good solution for those problems. And then later on, we realized that, OK, so not only he's a really good business ops, but also he can run special projects, which is a function that we call a deal, which Ghostbuster. So Ghostbuster, what they do is that they go to different functions and different departments, and then they identify, OK, what is the low efficiency part of this department? Why does things - Like, where are the problems? Yeah, where are the problems? Why things are not going well, right? And then they don't need to report to other managers or managers or managers.

54:48They just report to me, Alex, or Dan, our CEO, directly so that we can move very, very fast. And then he got promoted to Ghostbusters, right? And then later on, one year later, we promoted him to head of crypto. Yeah, crypto, we believe, like, you know, is, again, where we started. It's a really good tech technology and then infrastructure for, like, you know, global payments and then transactions to move cross borders. When did you start the Ghostbusters team? We started the Ghostbusters team around three years ago, three, four years, three years ago, three years ago. Yeah. And what was the initial, like, purpose of that?

55:32How did you decide to start that team? yeah i don't know if i should say that but but the thing is uh it's okay like i realized i realized most of the companies has gone through that phase right so we grew so fast with you the past six years right so we did a zero to one billion dollar arr and then we hired so many people was that like in five years actually five years yeah so which i i don't know if that's the fast like it's i think it's like one of the fastest i don't know if it's the fastest ai company, but I think it's definitely one of the fastest software. We're in a different category. Yeah.

56:07Well, I know. Like, cursor. The AI companies, I'm so impressed. But their growth, I'm trying to learn from them. I'm trying to learn, like, hey, how did they do that? Yeah. And then we grow so fast. We build so many different functions. And then when it comes to team itself, we just realize that we have so many things that we want to do. we started to hire so many people but when you hire this many people then you need to hire managers right and then when you have enough managers you need to hire another level which is directors yeah and then senior directors and head-offs and then uh another layer on top of that and then we realize that wow we are so far away from what is going on and then we don't even talk with the ICs anymore, like, you know, the individual contributors, right?

57:03And then that is so scary. Immediately when I realized that, and I realized that people start, managers and then directors started to book meetings on my calendar, try to tell me what is going on within deal. I was like, that is just so wrong. Like, how can I not know specifically, like, you know, on daily basis? You don't have a pulse on things. Exactly. Yeah. and then I actually know but they assume that I do not know and then they they go on meetings and present the things that I already know instead of like you know work on new ideas new projects and then I realized that oh fuck that that's fucked up like we need to stop this immediately so we started to like you know for every manager that we hire not only that they need to manage people we don't need people managers we need managers that are actually experts and then they get like you know enable the team and then they can actually also do the work themselves yeah and if the managers just focus on manage people then they create a lot of like you know yeah like levels and then they create a lot of like you know uh unnecessary projects yeah and then they want to bigger scope and then they automatically want to manage more people and you have to hire more people which is like you know unnecessary group of people working on unnecessary uh like you know not critical projects and then like you know wasting just wasting their time and resources yeah so we realized that we need to change and then where can we change we hired special project people, which we call Ghostbusters.

58:45And then go into each function, each department, and understand, like, you know.

59:18What are you working on every day? the biggest growing pain is you're growing so fast that you're just hiring people and the culture just kind of it can get diluted and can kind of go out the window how are you thinking about kind of like unfucking a broken process or system i feel like you know a lot of founders are trying what they're trying to do is they're trying to get a hold of everything yeah and but you cannot get a hold of almost like a dictator yeah not necessarily a dictator like you know they they want to like you know build everything in a very specific way which makes perfect sense because we're builders right and then but uh but the thing is uh like you know we cannot build everything by ourselves we have rely on partners and then that's why we have co-founders right and then that's why like you know each of the co-founder needs to be able to manage like you know a brand area and make it very, very good.

1:00:13Yeah. And then so that it is a partnership, and it's collaborated together. And then for me and Alex, we have a really good relationship. We're friends. We work together. Now we're family. He's younger than me, but he's my elder brother, because he's elder brother of his family. So that's a relationship. And then he is focusing on product and then CEO of the company, which is where he spent most of his time. So that's why we are product focused and we ship very fast. And then we have today 17 different products that our clients can use. And then everything when it comes to hiring, managing, and then paid talent, we will be able to support our clients.

1:01:05Yeah. And we build our own infrastructure for that. For me, I'm focusing on go to market and then chief revenue officer, which is making revenue for the team, right? And which is very important. It's pretty key to a business. Yeah, key to the business, yeah. And then we trust each other. And then also, we trust our team very much as well. And then keep the efficiency and the productivity. activity within, across their functions and departments. Yeah. What does your typical day look like? And how often are you traveling? And what is the purpose of the travel? Yeah. So I travel almost every other week for this year.

1:01:52And I travel mainly for client meetings and then conferences. And then also, like, you know, we have team offsets. Yeah, so we have three team offsets. We have execs offsets, and then we get every exec together. And then we invite our board as well. So one time in-person board meeting, we just came back from Cape Town. Yeah, South Africa. Yeah, the time you texted me, I was in South Africa. Yeah, I was just there. We would have flown out. Assuming we could have gotten the vaccines, I think that would be a sweet interview to do it in South Africa. You don't need the vaccines for Cape Town, but you do need the vaccines for other countries if you want to do safari or things like that.

1:02:38And then we have a very big team in Cape Town. And also, we have a DKO, deal kickoff. So at the beginning of each year, we have a sales kickoff. And then we gather everyone from sales team and then go to market team to one country. And then align with strategies and then kick off the year. Yeah. And then share with them the revenue target, sales target. And then what's... Hire. Yeah, exactly. Hire. Let's go. We have a mutual goal. for example if we did uh like x x amount of revenue everyone will go to another place for next year for example yeah so this we did in sevilla this year sevilla spain this year and then next year we'll be in dubai yeah when you kind of get the entire team together you get the executives and board members together what are you hoping to achieve in those like uh those experiences are you trying to just kind of rally everyone towards a specific you know refocus everyone?

1:03:43Yeah, I think we're fully distributed. And we don't have a headquarter. And then not everyone works together within the same location, same offices, right? And then it is always good to have offsets. And then so that we can meet, we can learn from each other, and then we can align the goal, the focus, and then give each other updates on what we're working on. Then you have product updates, and then sales need to come up with a sales strategy on how those new products will need to go to market, and then operations need to give up the support on the operational side of things. So, it is always an alignment of the entire company, but it is more like an upgrade, if If I can say it's an upgrade of what next year is going to look like.

1:04:40I think it was Cyan Bannister was talking about when she was initially thinking of the rideshare or when she initially met Travis Kalanick. She thought this person is like very aggressive. He's an aggressive person. And in order to kind of tackle the taxi medallion and the like taxi mobs almost, you had to have that type of personality. Yeah. How do you think about like aggression and just like trying to force things to happen faster than they should? I feel like we cannot force the team to move faster. We can only have them to voluntarily, like, you know, get together and then move faster. How to do that is just by inspire them.

1:05:25Yeah. And then we need to align, have the same goals, same missions. We need to be aligned and we need to feel inspired together so that we are motivated to work together and move faster together. Yeah, I think it will. It is not that Alex and myself are so aggressive and that we are dictators where we say like, you know, you have to do this and that. Yeah, it works. There's a guillotine over your neck. Exactly. Move faster. It works maybe for a short term, but I think for long term and then for to build a generational company, I think culture and alignment is so important. Yeah. So important.

1:06:07Yeah. Do you think of something similar to the way that Jensen talks about he's like torturing his people into greatness and the first step to that is like torturing yourself into greatness? Yeah, I'm very aligned. You're very aligned? Yeah, I'm very aligned there. I feel like, I think Jensen and then myself were both Asian, right? And then there is a great Asian saying is that before you can take on any big responsibilities and make a big impact to the society, you have to suffer. Yeah. Suffering is key. Yeah, suffering is key. Suffer could be physically, mentally, or psychologically. Because the suffering will make you become stronger.

1:06:56And the only you navigate through all the difficulties in life or difficulties in, like, you know, all the businesses, situations, you will become stronger and you will learn and you will improve. Yeah. And only through that, you will, like, you know, be focused, move faster, and then locked in. Yeah, I think that's what he probably meant. Yeah. What have been the biggest moments of your personal just feeling like you were suffering? I think I moved to, I grew up in China. And then I moved here at the age of 16 to join my mom. My mom moved here 10 years before me. And then I grew up with my grandparents.

1:07:43When my mom first moved to the States, she didn't speak English, she didn't really have any money, and then she had to build everything by herself. Yeah, she was very impressive. Like in Baltimore, for all places. Yeah, in Baltimore. She first landed in Seattle, and then she moved to Baltimore and Maryland. Yeah, she was so impressive, and I got very, like, you know, inspired by my mom. And she built this business that, like, you know, imports motorcycles, and then scooters, and then golf carts, and then does, like, you know, wholesale across entire U.S., like from East Coast to West Coast. Yeah.

1:08:28And then she, like, you know, was an entrepreneur herself. Right. And then when I moved to join her and I first moved to Baltimore. Yeah. And I had to help her with a lot of like, you know, the sales and then the operations. Running a business. Yeah, to help her to run a business, because she was literally by herself in certain ways. And then through that time, I realized that it really didn't matter whether we speak perfect English or not. And then because I didn't really speak English when I first moved here, the market, the demand, and then the product matter the most. Which makes sense. Yeah, which today is product-market fit.

1:09:20Like, you know, where you can find your product-market fit. And I kind of developed that concept, like, you know, back then. Yeah. And then, yeah, she was very successful. Like, you know, she did her best, like, you know, with, like, you know, the resources that she has. Yeah. And I was very proud of her. Yeah. And then she passed away because of leukemia three years ago. That was very sad. And that was literally one of the toughest moments in my life. I have to focus on Dio. It was during this hyper growth stage. And my mom was in hospital for a really long time. I think leukemia takes like a year or two to really...

1:10:10It's just like the slow burn to eventually dying. Almost one year we were in hospital. We got dismissed. We can go home. And then two days later, we have to go back to hospital. And then, yeah, and then I spent almost one year with my mom in hospital. And I would take meetings in the hospital because I also need to focus on Dio. What was that like when you were going through that? Like how did you feel? I think I really didn't think much. At that period of time, you cannot think too much. You need to have two things on top of my mind. I have two things on top of my mind. My mom and then a deal.

1:10:56And then that's it. And then just whatever that I need to do, do it. Do not overcomplicate it. Do not think what things go wrong because things will go wrong. right and then instead of like you know worrying about the future uh just focus at that moment and then solve everything uh that you can solve and then be there yeah that that is literally how i navigate navigate through that period of time yeah you grew up in china until you were 16 and i believe that you like live with your grandparents as my understanding i i had a uh probably four or five year period where i basically talked to my gram every day where i just give her a call and we'd chat mostly about the stock market um like value investing uh but what was the experience growing up in china like uh my grandparents uh they were both doctors yeah and then uh the environment was very simple and uh uh there are like you know only again uh a couple things that i need to focus on yeah because we're we're we're like you know in uh in asia and then for many uh family like you know study is priority yeah and then there are like you know a couple things that i need to focus on which is number one school work and then uh like you know um and then number two be uh well well-mannered right so like in a manner is very important yeah and then uh and then like you know behave well be kind to everyone and then do not take things for granted.

1:12:40I think those are the things that my grandparents taught me. And also, I think at my school, I obsessed with math. I love numbers. And then I would just study math on myself. Yeah. And then I love solve problems and I love proofs and I love to learn and then like, you know, study like, you know, how I sometimes create like, you know, like, you know, hypothetical problems. And then like, you know, trying to build my own mathematical theories and to see like, you know, how how this would work. Yeah. And then. What was your favorite? um like at that time it was like you know i was like so young in middle school like you know you don't really have a you i didn't learn calculus at the time yeah or i did not learn game theory at the time right so it's just based on what whatever i have yeah and i would uh like you to analyze, like, you know, trying to, like, for example, 12 square, what is 12 square?

1:13:59No idea. 144. And then, like, you know, but why is 12 square 144? And then how can we, like, you know, derive 12 square equals 144 the fastest way? And then how can we, like, you know, develop, like, you know, that algorithm? So to understand what is 13 square? Is it like 169? Yeah, 169. Yeah. So you're on it, right? So it's like, you know, just trying to like, you know, understand like algorithms and trying to build that. I don't even remember, but I remember like, you know, at the time I really enjoyed that process. Yeah. I remember with when Warren Buffett was growing up, he basically just spent like his family life was really rough and they didn't like it looked like he kind of grew up with money, even though he didn't because I think his dad was in Congress and stuff.

1:14:45but he just spent his entire you know childhood just like reading through his dad was like a stockbroker and he just read through all the books on investing and then he just like did you know memorize math tables and he just again and again and again and suddenly by the time he was you know like early 20s he was able to just have a snapshot of a business and really understand like the business position and where you know how it had gotten there and like where it might be going and things just on you know five seconds or ten seconds of glancing at a balance sheet or an income statement. When you moved to the States, you didn't, like you said, you didn't speak a whole lot of English.

1:15:18What was that experience like kind of figuring out, you know, almost feeling around in the darkness? I went to Poland when I was 16. So I kind of have the same vibe where I went for a year and about a month then I realized I was not about to learn Polish very quickly. And so, and so, you know, I just like was really kind to everyone and nice to everyone. And my host mom made me breakfast, lunch and dinner whenever I needed it. And that was great. That's really nice. Yeah. But I realized very quickly that I was going to have a lot more fun studying like Warren Buffett and value investing than I was trying to learn Polish because I'm dyslexic.

1:15:49This was not an ideal situation. What was that like for you? Just coming to the States and figuring that out? Yeah. For, well, coming to the States, I didn't really speak English and I went to this school, which is the only school in Baltimore County area offers English as a second language. And then that school is not a private school or a boarding school or anything fancy. And then I'm probably one of the only Asian students at the school. But I had a great time. And I realized that the culture shock from China to US. So in China, you only need to focus on studies, schoolwork. And then I love math.

1:16:41I can just study math. And then the only thing that matters is my grades. And then I need to be number one of my class. And that's it. It gives you something to clearly optimize for. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the US, you have so many things that you can do. Not only you can study, but also you can do a lot of sports If you like art, you can do art. And if you love music, you can practice music. There are just so many things that you can develop. And I love that. And then I'm a naturally very curious person. And then I tried many different activities in my school. I did badminton as a sport. And then I started to do oil painting.

1:17:24I did three or four years of oil painting as well. And then also I have the opportunity to, like, you know, create classes for my high school as well. Right. So before me, the high school didn't really have an AP class. And then because I'm so obsessed with math and then I, like, you know, kind of like, you know, lobbied the school to create AP calculus. They did that. And I was so happy. And then I recruited two other students to join me for this class. And then we studied together. And then I don't know about your high school, but at my high school, studying was cool. Studying was the coolest thing that you can do.

1:18:11And then I suddenly become the coolest kid at my school. I was so happy about that. And then, yeah, I had a fun time. And that is the first time that I realized that, OK, if you want something, do not be shy about it. You can always ask. Like, be direct? Yeah, be direct. And then if you don't ask, no one knows what you're thinking about. Yeah, and then if you want to build something, and then go for it. And then there are resources around you. May not be a lot of resources, but like you know they do exist yeah they do exist and then leverage like you know make them into a good use and then build something that is good yeah i remember the uh the only classes that i really enjoyed in high school were pottery and culinary arts and then i got like a d in pottery because all i really wanted to do was throw bowls um which is you know the actual like spinning wheel stuff uh but they wanted us to like memorize a bunch of stuff on the history of pottery and i was like, yeah, fuck that.

1:19:15I'll just do this. And so I went to the back of the class and I got, you know, horrible grades, but I enjoyed throwing my bowls. You went to MIT and then I think what was, how did you end up building like exoskeletons funded by DARPA at MIT? Yeah. So I dropped, I dropped out of my like, you know, graduate school. So, but I did an undergrad at MIT. And And then after that, I joined grad school. And when I first got accepted to MIT, my first year, I wanted to study math because I love math. And then I also wanted to study architecture because I love art. Yeah, I do think like, you know, and also I want to build.

1:20:01And then building is so cool. Like, you know, you design, and then you're an architect. You design, and then you have a vision, and then you build something that is just so cool. And it actually stays there forever. You see a bunch of buildings in the background here. And then also my grandfather, my mom's dad, was an architect. So I grew up with a lot of architectures. But that was my plan. And then first semester at MIT, I actually had a big car accident. I was riding my bicycle, and then a shuttle on campus struck me and then ran over my arm. So at the moment, the shuttle ran over my arm. I was thinking, oh, wow.

1:20:58I would probably lose my arm. But luckily, it is the left arm. It was not the right arm. I still have the right arm to be able to do things. Yeah. So that was like, you know, at the moment, that was I'm thinking about it. Yeah. And then the doctors tell you they were like thinking about amputating it? No, no, no, no, no. They were not. It was not that bad. Yeah. And then, but can you believe that? They sent me to the hospital. Shuttle, run over my arm. And then it is still functional today. That says something. Like, you know, I'm a strong person. Like, you know, even my bones are stronger than normal people would.

1:21:37I'm better. Yeah, I'm better. My bones are stronger. But I did stay in the hospital for, like, you know, most of my semester. Got recovered. But at the time, I was just thinking that what if I really, like, you know, lose my arm, right? and then that would be that would just be so sad and then then i want i want to build like you know new arms i want to build robotic arms for people who who like you know uh lost their limbs and then i want to help them to regain mobility yeah so that's that's why i started robotics and then that's why like you know i am so uh interested in building uh robotic arms and uh process this and then to help people yeah is there some other version of kind of the world where you went and just did that and built that type of company instead of instead of deal i i i'm still very interested in um like you know uh that vertical robotics i love robotics and uh i uh i think that you have data you have input and then you design the robot and then you teach the robot, and the robot will be able to perform certain task system movements based on your input.

1:23:03I think that's so amazing. And then I'm very excited. I'm still very excited about that idea. But I finished undergrad. I got a substitute to graduate school. I dropped out. I just realized that PhD is not for me. and PhD is for people that have a lot of passion and then do a lot of deep research and then want to also teach other people about a professional area. And I realized that I'm not smart enough for that. Yeah. And then that is not something that like, you know, I will be able to do well. Yeah. And I just like, you know, build a company. And then with my classmates at MIT and then we build a hardware company.

1:24:11Like the air purifiers. Yeah, the air purifiers. When did you decide to make that transition and like go back to Beijing and go? 2015 2015 yeah how'd you kind of make that decision in your head on starting a company versus staying on that um academic track probably just always like you know gets inspired by my mom yeah and then helping like you know helping her to build her business and then uh like you know figuring out a lot of things and then during that process like you know really uh make me super excited yeah and then uh also my co-founders at the time uh they're uh like you know they always wanted to become entrepreneurs right and i think the group of people and then the friends that i met am i t inspired me as well yeah what was it like um going going to china and just setting up everything from just figuring out the initial product that you were going to build to like figuring out supply chain and things like that we only raised a very small amount of money yeah and then uh like you know for hard hardware is very tough yeah and then it's like very small a couple hundred grand or something uh close to a million dollars i think it was 800 800 800 back in 2015 that used to be a lot of money yeah that yeah that is but for hardware it's not a lot of money yeah Because you will have to use the money to build the prototype or figure out the manufacturer and figure out the assembly line and then do the marketing, do the sales.

1:25:44Yeah, that was not a lot of money. And then also, we're outsiders. Yeah, to China. Even though, like, you know, I am Chinese, but my co-founders, they're not. Yeah, and then I didn't do my college in China. And then that is just, like, you know, very hard. when it comes to dealing with localized manufacturers and then assembly line, and then deal with local people and then local execs. Yeah, so it's like, you know, it's a very - You experienced culture shock going to the United States and then also coming back. Yeah, culture shock coming back when you're trying to build a business in China. It was very interesting.

1:26:25Yeah, I learned a lot. And I, again, I'm trying, I'm very adaptive. Yeah, I learned, like we learned very fast and then we just adapt ourselves within the culture. Yeah. And then we focus on the problems and then we focus on the solution and then we execute on the solution. Yeah. And then we worked on the company for three years and then later on we sold the company to iRobot. Yeah. I think it was like sold in like 2021 or at least that's when they like made the announcement and then you decided to kind of like stop working on it in 2018 2019 was it 2019 okay so was it like right before starting deal yeah it was uh right before our starting deal yeah yeah and then uh i think it was just uh at the time like you know the projects were ongoing and then uh i was the cto of the company and then once we developed like you know the first uh product it takes if you want to develop a second product it takes another three years right so either i can stay on that there and then develop another product or i focus on the first product or i build something else right and then uh after the whole hardware experiences i decided to like you know try something else like for example software and then i realized that company like you know needs to be global.

1:27:58You need to have a global brand if you want to grow fast. And also, talents are global as well. And then companies should be able to hire global talents. And then there are just so many amazing talents. And then I wanted to build something around there. I, I, I, my idea was, uh, like, you know, not very specific. Yeah. But I, I, I, I, I understand that that is the direction that I really want to go. Yeah. I remember even, I think while you were building that, you like wanted to build something similar to PayPal, but just like better. Yeah. I, uh, I think, uh, at the time, um, VTRAP pay, uh, wise, at the time was transfer wise, Otherwise, Revolut just got started.

1:28:49Those are amazing companies. And then they grow so fast. And then you can see the demand for international payments is just there.

1:28:59The need is there. The cross-border payments need is there. But if you look at the US, there were just not a lot of companies doing that. PayPal, yes. PayPal is so big, so well funded and then structured. But it is mainly focusing on domestic. The international payments from US to elsewhere was such a new area. Yeah. And like a massive hassle. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that you would have taken the same approach to building a deal if you hadn't gone back to China? I imagine doing that probably just lowered your fear as far as like going and working in other jurisdictions outside the United States.

1:29:44Whereas most founders like aren't, you know, traveling and spending a couple of years in China prior to building their startup. Yeah, I think I think, as I said, we're an outsider for the Chinese startup scene. And then when I moved from Beijing to San Francisco, I realized that I'm still an outsider to Silicon Valley. Yeah, and then Alex and myself, he grew up in France, and then he spent most of his time in Europe, Israel. And then I grew up in China, even though we studied at MIT, but still to San Francisco, to Silicon Valley, to the American type scene where such outsiders. Do you think that it's been kind of a benefit to you to not have been an insider in Silicon Valley?

1:30:35I don't know if there's benefits or not, but I feel like we don't want to become an insider anyways because we're a global company. We have the deal, the vision that we're seeing is that we want to empower companies to be able to expand globally and then also to hire global talents. Yeah, that is like, you know, the direction that we wanted to go. And then I think Insider or not, it does not like, you know, really impact us. Yeah. Deal now has like 17 different products. And although it is, you know, if you have a customer and you're able to maybe fill some need and figure out some solution to their problem, that's great.

1:31:20But it's also kind of risky in a way, because if you're diluting your focus, where it's you know against you know a single product into multiple products uh it can be difficult to just do one thing really really well um how have you kind of thought about focusing versus you know doing a second product or third product or so on yeah that's a great question um how we develop product is uh like you know depend like you know is based on our clients requirements where yeah and then what they want, and then based on their problems as well. Alex and myself, we're very close to our clients, right? And not only us, but our team are very close to clients as well, like product team and then sales team, right?

1:32:05And then we just collect a lot of signals, understand their problems, and then we analyze their problems, and then we build solutions for their problems, right? So in a way, the products that we have is streamlined and a series of products to serve our clients. So it's not a distraction where it's not a disfocus, but it's like, you know, a - It's like the right way to build this company is to have all of those things working together inside one roof. Exactly. Yeah. And we automatically just build a second growth curve on top of second growth curve, second growth curve in a way. What was it like when things started to work and you kind of had product market fit at the beginning of COVID?

1:32:53What was it like internally when things just started to inflect and people were signing up or engaging in a way that they hadn't prior? Yeah, it was a crazy period of time. I can tell you that. I remember we would take 20 meetings per day. Yeah, and then we would work 20 hours per day. First on meetings, need to follow up with those meetings, need to come up with replies, and also spend time on customer support, which was a crazy time. But because of that, we understand very fast what the demand of the market and then how can we build the products for the demand of the market yeah and then uh also one thing that's what i learned from during that period of time is that when you have a huge demand your support needs to be there as well yeah and then um was there a period where you just basically had this like influx of people wanted to buy the product but then you literally could not support all the customers that you brought on.

1:34:07Exactly. Yeah. And then how do you figure that out? We very quickly build a customer support team. Yeah. And then because we do. You go from sleeping 20 hours, working 20 hours to 22 hours, and then you get two hours of sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we do support 24-7. It was me, Alex, and then another, our very first customer support person. And then I would cover US and the APEC, America's and Asia. And Alex would cover EMEA because that was his time zone. Yeah, so in that, we have a full coverage of global and 24-7. Yeah. I think a lot of founders and people in general just kind of like misunderstand risk.

1:34:52And I think that there's probably, there's a lot of, you know, Jeff Bezos talks about like one-way doors versus two-way doors. How do you think about when you're making a decision, whether it be going to some new country or building a new product, anything like that? How do you think about taking risk? I think we have very high tolerance on risk. Yeah. I think it's not a problem. What I am seeing is among a lot of founders, and then I can almost fall into that trap, is what is popular out there and what is trendy out there. And then bazillion companies are working on here. Why don't we go there?

1:35:40Bazillion companies are doing this while we're not there. Greener pastures sort of situation. Yeah. And then, but the thing is, a lot of the time, almost like, you know, 100 % of the time, we founders need to think what we're trying to build. What is our vision? What is the problem that we're solving for our customers and the clients, right? And then we need to, like, you know, build processes and solutions and the product for this. That's how you, like, you know, otherwise you jump too much. One month you are focusing on there, another month you are focusing on there. And then next year you're building a completely different product because the market changes so fast.

1:36:25And then focus is very important. And then be determinate about what you are trying to build. And then build a long-term solution and then build a long-term vision is rather important. And then operating under that principle, yes, there are risks, but you can have to evaluate what is the best for the company and what is the best towards what you are trying to build and then just go and execute. And for most of the time, the results are pretty good. The outcomes are amazing. It may take time. You just need to be patient. but as long as you uh like you know have the belief i believe the outcome will be there yeah do you have a like internal algorithm you know elon has this this algorithm that's like five steps i forgot all the steps um for you when you're just going day to day what's the algorithm that's running inside your head i think there's one thing uh that i believe in is uh understand the problems, not the solutions.

1:37:43So a lot of the time, people come with a problem, and then they also come with a solution with that. But the thing is, the solution may be just for one dimension. It may not be good for the multiple dimensions that are out there. But as a founder, we need to acknowledge this problem. We need to acknowledge that, yes, this problem exists, right? And then this problem matters. And then we need to think, why? And then also - Like, why does the problem exist? Yeah, why? And then also need to think, why the existing solution? Why did this group of people come up with this solution? And what are they thinking about?

1:38:31Yeah, and then acknowledge that as well. And then based on those, develop your own solutions. Yeah, I think a lot of the time people tend to just follow the existing solutions without understanding the real problem and without understanding why the existing solution is built for this real problem. Yeah. What's been the biggest moment where you like just spent some time to understand some existing problem and then came to some unusual conclusion on how to solve this thing? Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, biggest problem, like, you know, hiring, for example. People are, like, you know, like, you know, telling me that we need to hire more people.

1:39:17And then I say, yes, that is not a unique ask, but why? And then they would say that, like, you know, we have, like, you know, project A, and then we need additional resources. And our existing team are focusing on project B, right? And then we need to understand what is project A? What is the value of project A? And then is project A meaningful for what we're trying to achieve for the goal? If it is, yes. And then we need to understand what is the capacity of the current team. And then what are they focusing on? Can we build a better process for project A and then project B to be like you know working together yeah and then i for most of the time it can be yeah so instead of develop a dedicated team for project a and then project and then a and then b do not communicate it which is within each other and then then you are not aligned the processes and then just adding additional resources right so then that that could be uh really uh bring in like you know inefficiencies and the potential problems downstream yeah so if i just listen to the the the if we just listen to the solution we need more people i would say yes go ahead hire more people yeah yeah there's been very few companies that have ever even seen the type of growth that you guys experienced when you know you just got your basically face smashed into the wall because some things are moving too quickly um how do you kind of course correct when disasters hit we are uh like you know we're in a very regulated industry because we handle payments and then uh we have two million people getting paid until every single month and then we uh transact across like you know two billion dollars across 160 different countries right so like you know we are very careful about make sure everything works yeah exactly make sure like you know everything is compliant and then we pay the people on time every single month yeah and then if we do not follow the processes and then if like you know we do not build a good system and if any like you know part kind of like collapse yeah it could be a very big disaster so we can And I noticed that at the very beginning of the old days, right, I shared with you, like, you know, how we're on customer support.

1:41:58They care so much about their money. And then so, like, you know, over the years, we just kind of need to build every single step very carefully. Yeah. Brian Chesky has this idea of this 11 star experience where you can't even hypothetically deliver that 11 star ever. but that's like your North Star goal of if all the constraints were removed, what would be the perfect Airbnb experience for some customer? What is that version for you, and how are you keeping that North Star? Yeah, so I think because we pay people, and then the best experience is always to receive the money, no question asked. They receive the correct amount of money, and then no question asked.

1:42:41Yeah, I think that's for the people getting paid on deal. But also, I feel like for HRs, who are our biggest customers, and then payroll managers, and then CFOs and CHROs, we can help them to improve efficiency within their team. Yeah. So that they don't need an army of HR people to run payroll, verify payslips, and then to do background tracks of their employee. all of those can be automatically done and then verified on dual platform. Yeah. So I think that would be the best experiences for the CHROs and CFOs. So basically, they only need to tell us that I want to hire this person in this location and then pay them this amount of money every single month.

1:43:35and then we can have all of this automatically generated and then have this employee get onboarded. Yeah, that would be the best. For working with Alex, how did you decide to go? You already started this company. You work on it for three years. You have co-founders on that other company. Why did you decide to have a co-founder on the next business as well? For me, I think it's about trust and then find the collaborators together. Yeah. And then I love to build things together with friends. And then I think I cannot manage everything and I'm not smart enough to know everything. Right. And having a co-founder and then can help me to, like, you know, build this really good team.

1:44:27And then we will be able to solve a lot of problems together. Yeah, and then why Alex? Because Alex is really smart, and then he is very kind as well. And then one of his specialty is that he will be able to learn everything very fast, even the most complicated things in the world. He will be. Do you have an example of that? Local labor laws, for example. Yeah, so it's like initially we have this idea, OK, not only we need to handle payments, We need to also handle compliance, and we need to start to establish entities everywhere. Where can we start? And Alex would actually read the local labor laws and the requirements for countries that we prioritize.

1:45:18And then he would need to come up with the processes himself and hire the relevant people, saying that, hey, you guys need to go here and figure this out and then read this and then how to do this. map out all the steps. And then he was a civil engineer. And then he has zero legal background, but he has to read all of those and then figure it out. That's crazy. And also, a lot of people do not know, he went to college at the age of 16, and then he graduated at the age of 19. And then he graduated from his grad school before 21. Was MIT his grad school? Yes, he went to MIT for grad school. So yeah.

1:46:00What initially got you into poker? And how has that kind of shaped the way that you think about building the company? Well, I think every founder is kind of a gambler. Yes. Yeah. And then I love playing poker. How I get into poker is we have a poker club at MIT. Yeah. We can just play poker all the time. Yeah. And then I don't know. I just love that. Yeah, I just love it. And then also I think it's a mental game as well. Yeah. It's about like, you know, maximized resources that you have. Yeah. Final question. What's the hardest thing you've overcome? I think I'm one of the deal culture that I shared is default optimism.

1:46:54And I'm just a very optimistic person. Even at the worst situation possible, for example, I just got run over by the shuttle. I was thinking, I was so lucky that it was my left arm, not my right arm. Even under that, I was - Yeah, look, I still have the right arm. We're good. Yeah, exactly. Even under that, I was just always thinking about the positive things about life. Always look on the bright side sort of situation? Yeah, always look on the bright side. And then, like, you know, I have definitely compared to people my age, I have experiences so much and a lot moving from country to country, all kinds of navigate through all kinds of cultural differences, and always an outsider for many situations, right?

1:47:46So I told you I was an outsider in Beijing and I was an outsider in San Francisco. And, like, you know, I grew up with my grandparents and then reunited with my mom, but she passed away. A lot of family situations.

1:48:04And then Dio, like, you know, grows so fast, so many challenges and complicated situations that we have to navigate through. But I feel like, you know, those are just the things that make me stronger. and then make me to focus on simple goals. What do you mean by that? Like, you know, I don't feel like I'm that type of person that asks a lot. I have very high standard, but I have low expectations. Yeah, because I understand there are many uncertainties in life and then things are very unpredictable. yeah and uh have lower expectation can help you to uh like be less unhappy when things don't go exactly exactly but like you know high standard is like you know very much needed so you just have like hold yourself internally to some standard and then you like want the company to like emulate that as well but also when things don't go well you're not like angry that they didn't go well it's just kind of like you get to reset your cards and play the next hand yeah Exactly.

1:49:20Like, you know, for example, COVID is a difficult time for everyone, right? And then it kind of changes a lot of people's lifestyle and how a company operates and then tough situations. But when the world changes, we change the world. We adapt into those situations. And then we are trying to understand how we can further empower people to hire remotely, empower workforces to be able to work elsewhere. And then we build the product within a very short time or period and then to fulfill those requirements. Yeah, I think that is just how we navigate through situations and then be able to build a strong product.

1:50:13Yeah. Has there ever been a moment during a deal where you felt like you were given a really shit hand and you turned that into some like unusual success by just playing the game in an unusual way? We didn't have a lot of resources to start with. Yeah. Yeah, and then, again, Alex and myself, we are outsiders, right? And then we, as immigrants, did not really grow up in the US, and I didn't really speak English when I first moved, and still today, I'm struggling with English for a lot of the times. Yeah, me too, sometimes. And I feel like, you know, it just didn't really stop us. Right. And then we have our goals, we have our priorities, and we are very focused.

1:51:05Yeah. And then I feel like what matters by the end of the day is what you are building and then what you deliver. Yeah. And then if you become the winner of the market, then you can automatically get a lot of new resources. And then you make those new resources into good use and then continuously building and then continuously become the winner of the market.