Handling Our Kids' Explosive Anger (with Loryn Brantz)

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2:35Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today, I'm looking forward to speaking with a creative force. She's an author, artist, poet, and director. It's Lauren Brantz. Lauren's won Emmys for her outstanding achievement designing and building puppets at Jim Henson's workshop. She's the creator of comics, numerous beloved children's books, including the bestselling series Feminist Baby and It Had to Be You, a love poem your baby can see. Our last conversation on Unruffled was about Poems of Parenting, which became a New York Times bestseller. And her new book is my favorite of all because it's about understanding and responding toward children's overwhelming emotions.

3:18In I Am a Spicy Nugget, Lauren delivers a powerfully helpful and comforting message to parents and kids with their usual grace and humor. Hi, Lauren. Hi. I'm in awe of your new book. I love all your books, but this one could probably be my favorite. That means so much, all of that coming from you, and I think you're wonderful too, and you make me smile, and I'm so happy to be talking to you again and back on your podcast. Thank you. Well, I want to talk all about your book, and especially framing it around this incredible message that you were able to encapsulate and masterfully explain and demonstrate.

4:02I mean, I, I've spent hundreds of podcast episodes, blogs, just trying to help parents do this, because it's the biggest challenge that we have as parents. And here you wrote a picture book and you totally nailed it. It's really unfair. Thank you so much. That means everything. Oh my goodness. This idea of allowing children to have their angry explosions or, this could be a tantrum or a meltdown, but this anger is the hardest emotion of all, I believe, for us to accept. And I really want to know about your process, the process behind this book, how you got to this place where you're able to do this with your children, and what goes on in your mind.

4:52Like, what do you tell yourself? How do you bring yourself into that? Because that's what we need to know is like, how do we do this in the moment? How do we really get there? You know, we can know that it's the right thing even, but we're still going to struggle when our child is expressing something strong and intense like that. So I really want to hear you share about that. Because apparently you do have some experience with this, but you just figured it out. Like, how did you figure it out? You know, it's been such a journey. I really feel like me and my husband have been through like the gauntlet of parenting.

5:29Everything's just always been so extreme. So my, you know, And I read everything, tried everything, went to psychologists, specialists. I mean, one particular one gave us advice. The advice she gave us ended up being sort of like a breaking point of us realizing that not all the advice we're getting is going to work for our child. And we really need to react to who she is and follow our instincts and tailor them to her. She was having trouble staying in her bed at night. We had just had her brother, my son, and it triggered something. And she just, they call it Jack in the Box Syndrome, where you put the kid in bed and they just jump out all night.

6:20Meanwhile, we have a newborn crying all night and it was painful. We weren't sleeping at all, either of us. And it was so, so hard. And we talked to other people, learned so much more. I learned about like PDA and all these things. And so can you tell everyone what PDA is? PDA is, I always forget what it's different, pathological demand avoidance. And basically it's when you ask your kid to, you know, put on their shoes. Not only is there a normal power struggle of being a child, but their nervous system just short circuits because they feel like a bunch of things. Maybe they feel like they're not able to do it or they're anxious about it.

7:04And it's sort of like realizing that anytime your kid is explosive or tantruming, you know, kids don't want to be like that. It's because when they're really little, either there's some unmet need, like they're tired or hungry, always, it feels that way. Or they're a little older, it's because they aren't capable of it. Like you have to meet them where they're at. And we started meeting Dolly where she was at more than I think most people meet their kids where they're at. you know, she really didn't like washing her hands. It's like a sensory thing. So we used hand wipes instead. You know, we just found ways to tailor our lives to it.

7:43She just started developing so much better and faster and calmer. And she's really doing amazing. And our son is doing wonderful too. And I think we took that like extreme version of what we learned with her and we we put that towards my son as well. And it really works. What I mean by extreme is that her emotions are so extreme that we really had to learn how to handle that as parents. And then we took the version of that and brought that to our, the way we raised our son also. And it helps for both of them, even though, you know, they're very different, but just always knowing who they are and not judging them.

8:24I think people don't realize how badly our children want to be. They want to please us and they feel so like ashamed when they think they're not and they don't express that. They just freak out. Just like knowing that the spiraling is coming from a place of them like being embarrassed or ashamed or and that's where that rage comes from really changes the dynamic of how you deal with it. Yeah. And it can come from other things too, just feeling the sense that they don't control something or when they're, you know, working so hard to find balance all the time with their extremely rapidly developing brain and body and everything else.

9:06And it's like, they're always off balance. And then as you note, they have this immature self-regulation ability. and you said it perfectly in your email to me when you were describing the book. You wrote, I really wrote this book as a reminder to parents, including myself, that your kid is not on equal footing with you. They are sweet little spicy nuggets with underdeveloped prefrontal cortexes that are still learning and growing. So before getting too mad, try to see them as clearly as you can and go from there. And before that, you say your child is not on equal. footing with you. It's this perspective that is really the key to everything.

9:50And it's what I always talk about here, that what you're seeing there is going to make you feel a certain way. You know, if you're seeing an angry adult, intense, that maybe brings up someone in your life that is even abusive or whatever, then you're going to react in a way that's not going to help your child who isn't anything like that, who is a tiny person that's deserving of respect, like other people, but very underdeveloped in certain ways, you know. So we have to kind of train ourselves to see that, and then see the unique sensitivities of each child. Yeah, they're completely new to planet Earth.

10:33It's like they're aliens coming to visit, They're just like new. Everything's new. And imagine how hard that must be, especially with, you know, their prefrontal cortex not being fully developed and unable to regulate their emotions. I mean, I see my kids with so much empathy and compassion, because they're just, they're like little sweet beans. I don't know. Right. And they're in the feelings. They're always in the middle of the feelings. They're not standing outside at all, ever. They're not able to do that. They're just in it. And then they're in the next one and then they're out of it. And there's a lot of wonderful, inspiring things to learn from them.

11:11Like you said, the empathy and all that. But this is this challenge when things aren't going well, they aren't going easily. For us, how do we remind ourselves to go there? So I'm just wondering, like, in that actual moment, when your child's becoming a spicy nugget, and that drawing that you made, that image of the nugget. I'm in love with that nugget. What goes through your mind? Like what actually do you do in the moment or feel or tell yourself? Yeah. Well, what you said about being able to be outside of your feelings, I think is what you gain as an adult. Like that's something you can do as an adult that they can't do.

11:50And something that happened alongside of raising my daughter and learning to parent her was I was dealing with my own things. You know, I have really severe OCD. I have anxiety. I have all sorts of stuff. So I started meditating a lot. With what was going on in my house, I really, I needed to not be there for her in a way where I was just sort of like containing myself like a soda bottle and then not letting it go. I needed to be able to find real inner peace to deal with all of this because I feel like she can tell when, you know, she could tell if I'm not actually calm or letting everything go.

12:33And so I ended up meditating a lot and reading like a gajillion books, The Untethered Soul. I'm obsessed with it. Everyone should read it. That was like my best parenting book because I ended up learning sort of how to become the observer of my thoughts and feelings rather than getting swept up in them. Who's it by? It's by Michael Singer. It's really a, I guess it's a self-help book about finding inner peace and radical acceptance. Kind of a theme of my life has been like realizing what I can't control and what I can't. And as it turns out, I'm pretty sure I can't control anything. And that includes my daughter's feelings.

13:15You know, I'm not there to control her feelings or change her, of course. I'm just there to make sure that she's safe and loved as she learns and grows. And I know she's like this incredible person inside and like just the sweetest, most loving little person. And that as she gets older, she becomes herself more and more. And I'm just here to ride that wave with her. I get very worked up over world news and all sorts of things that I can't control. And so learning that like it gets so much bigger. It's like, yeah, I can't control what's going on in the world. You know, I can't control how people feel about me.

13:53And I also can't control my kids' tantrums. And it's radical acceptance of it, basically. You know, the good and the bad and everything is what it is. Can I ask what kind of meditation you do? Well, I did mantra meditation for a long time. Then I kind of just spend time quiet. But I'm able to kind of go there a lot where I just sort of become the observer of my thoughts and feelings. And Gabby Bernstein has an app. She has meditations in it. And I use them all the time. They're great. They're guided. I would go even further to say we don't control our own reactions and reflexes and emotions that come up for us, triggers or whatever, in these situations.

14:39you know it sounds like you're doing all this preventative work that's really helpful with the meditation and everything and your partner I guess helps you have time to be able to do that right because I meditate I didn't start till I was an older person and I think gosh would I have had time to do this when my kids were little like how would I have arranged that it's like so important to me that I prioritize it and I do it you know just for like 10 minutes in the morning after the kids get to school because I don't have time. And sometimes if I wake up really early before they get up, I don't get out of bed, but I'll put on the meditation.

15:15And I do it right before I fall asleep, which everyone goes to bed at some point. So those are the times I do it, and it makes it easier. And then in the moment, like if one of your children is going off, now you've had practice and you've written a whole book. I wonder, did writing the book help even kind of ground you more into this way of being around emotions? Yeah, I mean, it certainly was fun to like encapsulate what it feels like when that happens at my house. I particularly felt strongly about not having the adult intervene because something I've learned in my house is that, you know, intervention usually makes things worse.

15:58Doing less is more. So the grownup doesn't help, you know, the nugget calm down. She eventually calms down herself because they always do. And that's when they unpack it. And, you know, try again next time. Yeah. So you recognize this now as a place that you're safe to go with her, that you can let her be like this and that it will pass. And both of them, I don't want to just say her, but do you feel like you are a volatile person like that? Um, no. And neither is my husband. So we're both kind of like, whoa. Um, no, no, not really. I am very intense. I'm like an intense and passionate person.

16:41I have strong opinions and this and that. But I don't know. I don't think I'm volatile, though. Do you recognize when you're even angry? Because I don't until a bit later. And I feel like that is maybe partly my temperament, but also very much that this was totally unacceptable in my household. There were feelings that were fine to have, being sad and crying and all that, but not being angry or pushing up against my parent in any way. And I feel like I think I would have been a mellow person anyway, like intense on the inside, kind of like you, but, you know, not somebody that explodes like that.

17:23But I don't even recognize like I'll be crying or I'll be just upset. And then later I realize, oh, you know, you were angry and you have a right to be angry about that. But it's like unrecognizable. Yeah. And there's social conditioning to women about anger and you just kind of end up bottling up so much. Yeah. And that's why your book is so valuable and important. I mean, all your books, but especially this one, I feel they're all fun for parents to read to their kids for one thing. But they also have a message for parents. And this one, I feel like if we could look at this every day when our children are young, if we have this intense type of child, like not every child is like that.

18:10But if we have a child that's intense and has strong reactions like that, then, gosh, the grounding of this, it's just magical. I mean, I feel like you've really hit on something so important. It could be so, so helpful to parents, just that reminder. You put it out there. You know, I've said it in all these different ways, but I'm a person that talks about parenting and you're a parent going through it and you've shared how it's done, you know, how you can do it. You both survive it. Your relationship gets only stronger through that. And it's just this letting go that's so hard. Like you said, you're not getting in the way because the thing is, when we try to say anything or do anything, we have to understand that that comes from a place of us being uncomfortable and wanting to make a stop.

19:02That's why it doesn't work. No matter what we said, our child is actually gone to a whole different planet there that they don't control. They don't want to be there. They don't know what happened or what's going on for them. And so how can we how can we blame them logically? And how can we find this place of peace with this? With my own OCD, you know, I have intrusive thoughts that I can't control. And it really made me relate more to my kids' struggles because the impulse control and the explosiveness, I know it's not, it's obviously not controlled. And I'm like, I get that, you know. We know that deep down in our cores, we're not that.

19:46We're pure love inside, on the inside, and this stuff just comes up.

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22:20I know I keep going to this because I just, I feel like this is the meat and what parents really, really need. So there you are, your child's a spicy nugget, and you know that trying to do something doesn't help. You know they just need to go there. But what is actually happening for you? You know, it kind of depends on what the scenario is exactly. If we're at home and, you know, let's say she pushes her brother really mad and will be like, I think you need to cool off. She kind of stomps around and screams and goes to her room and we just wait, you know, sometimes. And then I'll go in there and we'll have a hug.

23:02But that's after, like when she's calmed down. After. Yeah. You know, like, I know you don't want to hit your brother. We'll try again next time. And she does. And she's gotten so much better with him. We had this really beautiful moment recently where that happened. And, you know, kids don't want to be told to say sorry to each other. So I never really ask her to, but I'll be like, how would you feel if he hit you? And this and that. And she had trouble verbalizing what she was feeling. But she took out her whiteboard and she drew like a graph. They do this at school. There's like happy, calm, sad, angry in the grid.

23:39And then put a big dot under sad. And we were like, oh, we know she doesn't want to hurt anybody. She just loses control. And afterwards, she shows her love even more. And then the incidences happen less and less. She just knows there's nothing she can do that would make us not love and respect her. So you have a lot of practice seeing beyond what's going on there in those moments and seeing your little girl. So there's that version of things where we wait. And also, you know, sometimes you really just have to pick her up and go. Like, you know, we're going to be late for an important appointment or something.

24:15There's no other option but to pick her up and go. And I don't make a scene about it. It's just like, here we go, we're going. The other thing that helps in our household, a huge thing, is imaginative play and humor. And if I can catch her before an explosion or my son, humor, it's the best thing we can do. And we have a ton of strategies for leaving the house to make things more fun that work. Like, I'll open the door and pretend they're invisible animals running out the door, and they have to race them. And I'm like, are you going to beat the cheetah? Here come the elephants. Like, go, go, go.

24:51Let's go. We're going to race. And they, you know, start running out the door. Doing conga lines to go to bed. If me and my husband start doing a conga line, the kids, like, can't resist joining in. That's been really helpful. I mean, there's just so many. And Spicy Nugget actually came from a moment like that. my daughter was getting a little worked up about something. And I was like, are you becoming a spicy nugget? I'm gonna, I'm gonna dunk you in some cold milk to cool you off, which I don't know, it doesn't even make sense. It was funny at the time. And I picked her up and started to like kind of gently dunk her on the couch, like lift her up and down.

25:28And it really broke up the moment. We both thought it was really funny. And it lowered the temperature. Is it okay if I give a spoiler about the end of the book? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so at the end of the book, I mean, this to me is everything actually that we need to know. So at the very end of the book, the little girl says, wait, what was I mad about again? You know, after she's gone through this whole spicy thing and the way that you've shown the whole process of her getting to calming down. I think that's what's really important about this because, you know, we're impatient as parents and we want it just to blow over and stop.

26:06But it almost has all these different levels, you know, in the book about I have to go there and then I had to go there and then I had to go there. And it's, of course, for every child is specific to them. But so often at the end, it's so telling. They have no idea what happened or how they got there. And it's such a brilliant reminder to us that they were not in their body. They were not in relationship with us there. They were off in their own place in that feeling. That's just what happens. So how can we blame them for that? How can we punish them for that? It's such a great reminder when they do that at the end.