Facing your fears with cliff diver Molly Carlson

0:00Those three seconds I get in the air are the most silent my brain is ever. And it's so crazy that I have to jump off a cliff to get this silence because I crave that. Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

0:32Molly Carlson is a Canadian high diving champion. She's placed second at the Red Bull Cliff Diving World Series three times and holds 29 world medals. Molly's also a passionate advocate for mental health. She's the founder of Brave Gang, an online community that empowers people to practice self-compassion and face their fears. I want to help others just feel proud of themselves. If they want to jump off a cliff or if they want to learn a cartwheel or if they simply want to get out of bed on an anxious day, these are all brave things. I think we all deserve to celebrate the little brave things, and that definitely inspires me to keep jumping every day, I find.

1:10I was a springboard diver, so I know how much of the sport is mental. It's actually a big part of why I became a psychologist. So I was keen to talk with Molly about managing anxiety, building confidence and courage, and taking smart risks.

1:26As a former diver, I've just watched you in awe, and I cannot even imagine doing what you do. A couple of facts to get on the table first. Yes. When I think about 10 meter, I think about typically hitting the water at 30 to 35 miles an hour. Right. How fast do you hit? Okay, I'm so bad in miles per hour because I'm Canadian and we do kilometers. Yeah. And I've heard that we, the girls, hit between 65 and 80 kilometers an hour off of 20 meter. Wow. So I always say 80 because that sounds cooler. That's around 50 miles an hour. It's a lot. It's fast. And as soon as you hit in the wrong angle, it could be a trip to the hospital.

2:09You know what I mean? And it's no longer, oh, let's dive for fun. Let's try new things. If you're not 100 % ready to try a dive up there, you're not going to do it. Because you need to just be physically and mentally prepared for all the outcomes. And we're much more calculated than people think we are. When I think about the surface tension of the water at that speed, it doesn't feel that different from concrete, does it? Right. At that point, you're absolutely hitting so fast. Your body's like, what? What is this? Water, cement? Like, I'm so confused. And you think you train for it and your body gets almost used to the impact.

2:51I remember that first jump ever. Like I almost had whiplash from landing perfectly because your body was just so not used to that kind of shock and that kind of impact. But the more you do it over and over again, unfortunately your body accepts that that is reality. In my diving days, I didn't even like doing 10 meter. So when I watch you going up on a 20 meter cliff or a 27 meter platform. I just, I think you're insane. Why? Why are you doing it? I respect that. I get that a lot. People are like, why are you doing this with your life? Are you okay? And honestly, I ask myself the same thing every day too.

3:34And unfortunately I happen to be really good at high diving and that makes it worse because you're like, I guess I just have to keep going. But as a kid, you know, you grow up loving one meter, loving three meter. You dabble with 10 meter, but you're like, oh, it's way too high. But then, you know, I ended up switching after university. I went to Florida State University and I absolutely loved my time as a regular diver, but something was missing. I felt like I really wanted to just be the bravest version of myself and see what my body could do. And here we are. Wow. Okay, well, you've definitely become the bravest version of yourself and a braver version of a diver than I could possibly imagine being.

4:22I was listening to you thinking, no, I loved one meter. I didn't even like three meter, let alone platform. It's already too high, and it hurt too much when you smack. Plus, I felt like every dive got harder, and that just created more margin for error and pain. Absolutely. We love a one meter king. Yes. So, okay. So you, you make this transition and you decide you're going to do high diving. Can you walk me through the first time you did a difficult cliff dive? The thing is the fear. And I think your question just brings me back to my first ever high dive. And that was just a front jump, like a simple, nothing in the air, feel the height, feel the fear.

5:09And I was up there so nervous. I had only been doing 10 meter and the following platform was 18. Like this is a big jump. Like that's eight meters difference. You're so used to how long is a 10 meter? I think Tom Daly said it's a 1.6 seconds now. And 18 meters is at least three seconds. Like it feels like that anyways. And so I took this jump, this leap of faith. And I was like, in the air for hours, it felt like, like time stopped. And I was like, this is the coolest opportunity ever. And I was like, oh, but I have to brace for impact. Like, yes, it's cool in the air, but this is going to be a lot on the body.

5:52And as soon as I hit the water, I just wanted to do it over and over again. The adrenaline is absolutely crazy, but it's addicting. It's addicting in the way that you've just done something so brave faced fear head on and you want to do it all over again I don't even think I would do that without shoes like I remember smacking my feet on 10 meter oh yeah thinking like if I went any higher no this is not going to work that's the thing with high diving if you land an inch off of vertical you're hurting something even when you land vertical, you're hurting your knees, you're hurting your ankles. Like when it's a perfect rip entry, there's absolutely still going to be stuff getting damaged.

6:35And I think that's where it gets scary is like, okay, why am I putting my body through this? And how many more years can I do it for? And it's interesting. It's an interesting choice. What was the scariest dive to learn? Ooh, I think the scariest dive for me to learn was being the first woman in the world to do a standing quad half pike. When you do a front quad half pike, you're doing what, three and a half forward somersaults? Yes. And then opening out and doing a half turn and another half somersault? Exactly, look at you. So I don't know if you've seen these events online, but Red Bull Cliff Diving is like the big world tour that we do.

7:17and they can kind of decide whether to make your platform big, to make it small, to make it off a rock, to make it off a cliff. And unfortunately for me, I do one of the hardest dives in the women's event with a run up. So you'll see on 10 meter, a lot of people do a little run and that just gives them some extra momentum to make these hard dives. And I learned this dive on 20 meter with a run-up. And then I get to this Red Bull event in Bosnia and they say, oh, there's no space for a run-up, Molly. And I go, I'm sorry. Like, am I going to die today? And they say, today you're just going to have to either get a smaller dive or get rid of the run.

8:02And I was like, in my era where I wanted to be cool. And I was like, I guess I'm doing it without a run. I don't want to go to a smaller degree of difficulty just because you shortened your platform. And I shocked myself because I did the best dive of my life in competition. I got two 10s from the judges. And I was like, how on earth did I make this hard dive harder and do it better than I ever have? Like that was just, it's crazy what your body can do under so much pressure. So that was a really cool experience, but I was honestly throwing out before. Do you mean that literally? I was because I don't travel very well either.

8:45Like the thing with our sport is that you're traveling to cliffs around the world. You're jumping into some interesting waters and the water in Bosnia was actually not, not the cutest. So I was jumping into some interesting things and my stomach was just a mess that week and I was like how am I supposed to be throwing up and compete and try the world's hardest dive and be the first to do it and somehow if you can get your energy to connect for three seconds that's all you need to do a phenomenal high dive and somehow I just connected it all saved it all up for that three seconds in the air and ended up throwing up before and after.

9:29Honestly, I stepped off the podium, threw up immediately, but we ended up winning. So it was, it was so dramatic, but it was funny. Wow. So you could have, you could have downgraded to an easier dive. Yes. What was going through your mind as you tried to motivate yourself to do this standing? I feel like when you've never seen someone else in the world do something, it becomes extra hard for your brain to tell you this is something you should be doing. And that is tricky because when no one's ever done it, your brain is like, oh my gosh, like, yes, the men have done it, but women's bodies, our athletic abilities, they're just so different.

10:14And it's just never been seen before. And it's just so interesting what goes through your mind during these experiences, because you end up almost gaslighting yourself. I'm so ready for this. You can do this. You've trained for this. Girl, like just so much almost extra positivity because you need to like get rid of those negatives with too many positives to convince yourself to jump. And the feeling you get after, when I did that first one in practice and I survived, I came out like I won the lottery. I was like, I am the coolest person in the world. And that's what makes it such a roller coaster, I think, is that we're dealing with life or death, obviously.

10:58Our sport is insane. We are facing fear head on, but you're also facing adrenaline and just feeling all those feelings and the proudness you get when you do it is almost unmatched, I would say. Wow. This is the first time I've ever heard someone use the term gaslighting positively. Yeah, like at the end of the day, if that's what gets you off that cliff, gaslight it up, girl. Because you've got to tell yourself whatever you have to tell yourself to be able to do these things. And for me, the trick is gaslighting. When I think about your prior diving career, on 10 meter you did front three and a half pike, right?

11:37Right. And so you can tell yourself, oh, I have an extra 10 meters to just do a half somersault with a turn. That's not much at all, is it? Well, and in your head, you're mathematically like, of course I can make this. Like, if I can make three and a half flips on a 10 meter, I can easily make that extra half rotation. And it's difficult because you think you have so much time, but that time in the air goes by so fast. When you want more time, the water does not give it to you. Like, it is right there. It's coming for you quickly. I think I've had one bad experience on the quad half pike where I ended up hitting from my hips to my head parallel to the water.

12:22And that immediately gave me a concussion. Like I knew in that moment, luckily I didn't knock out. Like there was no like drowning in the water or something dramatic because the water was really warm. It was really solid and not solid. The warmer the water is, the softer it is. We're getting technical here, but it didn't hurt as bad as it could have, but it definitely gave me a concussion right away. And those moments teach you the most. And those moments ask you, okay, for real, for the 100th time, why are you doing this? And it's almost like you can learn from your mistakes in so many other sports, but in this sport, do you really want to get back up there and do it again?

13:07That was a tough one for me to try that one again. Yeah, you just have to You have to be kind to yourself, but you also have to check in and respect that fear should be in our sport so that you stay as safe as possible. Yeah. Well, I mean, that raises the big question of why. What motivates you to keep doing this? my why of cliff diving is a lot deeper than I thought it would be because I did lose the joy of my sport unfortunately in the sport of regular diving because I almost wanted to change who I was to fit into a mold I think you see this a lot in the world of judge sports you see it in figure skating you see it in gymnastics you see it in diving you want to look a certain way to appear best to the judges and what you think they like.

14:01And that becomes really toxic to your own brain. And so I'm a really tall diver. I'm 5 '8". And all the people winning the Olympics are 5 '3". You know what I mean? Like, especially on 10 meter, these really, really short curls because they can flip faster, they're smaller. And I found myself just struggling with, if I want to learn these bigger dives, do I have to be smaller? And obviously I couldn't shrink. And this binge eating disorder that I fell into really led me to my rock bottom. And I felt alone in that. And I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone because all the Olympians never talked about mental health.

14:44Like, I don't know if it was just the era I grew up in, but in the world of diving, especially in diving Canada, everyone still thought it was a taboo conversation. And I was like, am I the only one having anxiety right now? Am I the only one struggling in myself? And I was just really scared to talk about it. Finally, asking for help was the bravest thing I've ever done. People ask me that to this day. They're like, jumping must be the bravest thing. I'm like, no, I will jump off a million cliffs before I finally talk about mental health because it's so hard and so scary. And that was a really, really tough situation for me.

15:22And when I finally did that, I felt so proud and I fell in love with diving again. And I think that brings me to my why is I never want another 16 year old girl to feel alone in her mental health journey. It's scary, it's vulnerable. And if I can be that small difference where people feel loved in who they are and respected for all the bodies that they bring, all the energy that they bring, then I want to be that person. Wow. So your motivation is actually less about diving than it is, I guess, instilling confidence and courage in other people. Absolutely. I didn't realize that I would be jumping for a bigger purpose than myself when I started this journey.

16:12But it was so just a positive environment when I started sharing online, you know, this is what I do. People were freaking out. Why are you jumping out of a roof? And the most common caption or comment that I saw was the word brave. And I was like, I feel like we all have this thing in common. Like, I feel like we're just this brave community. I started just asking others to use this brave gang hashtag to then share their own brave stories. And this hashtag on TikTok has over a billion views with a B. It's shocking. And every time I click on it, I just start crying because people are just being brave for themselves.

16:57And that truly just inspires me to keep jumping for me and to just be brave for you because it's a hard thing to do, but it's worth it in the end.

17:12Let's talk a little bit more about fear and bravery. There are cliff divers who don't think what they do is brave because at least they claim that they don't feel anxiety or fear. I think you may even date one. Oh my goodness. My boyfriend, Aiden Heslop, is the first person I've ever met where he doesn't show fear. And I'm like, I've been around now for five years in the sport of cliff diving. I know everyone's a little bit nervous. Everyone shows it in a little way. But Aiden is almost too comfortable with fear. And he just is so hungry for what's the next big trick I can do. And I think for me, fear should always be there because it almost motivates you to protect yourself.

18:02It motivates you to be smart in your decisions, be calculated in your decisions. If we weren't scared every time we jumped, then we would be making those mistakes. The time I did get a concussion, I was trying to make the best TikTok of my life. I was like, can I get this angle? Can I get you to stand over here so that I can look the coolest. And I was so distracted. I was so comfortable that I didn't respect the sport of high diving. And you need to respect the fear. You need to respect how serious it is or else you are going to make mistakes. And that, unfortunately, you have to learn the hard way, but we all learned it at one point.

18:44And I think it's very important to have fear. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think in psychology, when we study the functions of fear, teaching us to avoid danger and make sure that we're not taking unreasonable risks is one of the, maybe the most important purpose that fear serves. I think we also all know that too much fear, if we experience it too frequently or too intensely, can paralyze us. Right. So what have you learned about how to manage it and sort of calibrate it so that it's functional as opposed to dysfunctional? So the trick in high diving is to learn that you should not try to push away fear.

19:26I've done a lot of work with my mental performance coach where if you imagine like a piece of paper like in front of your eyes and this paper is the fear and you're consumed by it. I shouldn't jump. I'm so scared. And you let that fear just exist right in front of you and it overwhelms you. then you don't have any energy to focus on your dive because that whole fear is in your front vision. So what he told me was gently shift that piece of paper to the side. That fear can simply exist beside you. Fear can absolutely be there. It should be there in your sport. But I'm going to put you just right here so that I can give my full attention to doing the best and safest dive that I can.

20:14And that changed my life. When I let fear consume me, I was making so many mistakes up there. I was making almost detrimental mistakes because, you know, fear can get too big where you shouldn't be jumping. I've gone all the way up to the top and actually walked down because it's too much fear. And that's a long walk sometimes. And, you know, I'm proud of those days where when fear does get too high and when I'm not feeling it, I am very comfortable saying, listen, coach, today's not the day. And that's okay. And mentally or physically, you need to know your body enough to say no. And that is important.

20:54Yeah. I like that a lot. I was actually thinking about this recently when I got back on the diving board for the first time in quite a while. Did you? Yeah. I remember walking up to three meter for the first time in about two decades and thinking, I don't feel ready yet. And then at some point hearing my coach Eric Best's voice in my head reminding me, okay, you're not going to work through the fear standing still. You work through the fear by taking the leap. And it's doing the dive and doing the reps that actually starts to reduce the fear as opposed to just thinking you can reason your way through it.

21:31So I guess I've come to believe that the best antidote to anxiety is action. obviously reps and doing it help you so much even visualizing some practices before a season starts I'll actually just go up to the 20 meter platform and spend 30 minutes sitting up there and just getting used to the height because exposing yourself to these areas and making it less and less scary for your brain so that it's not a huge jump scare when you get up there like you're really almost respecting it. And you're like, okay, those thoughts are allowed to be there. Because the whole 10 minute walk up, I'm sure when you went back on the board, you were like, what should I do?

22:15Can I even do a hurdle? Can I even get to the edge? Am I going to fall off? Am I going to hit the board? Like these are thoughts that come up like we're human. But I've learned to control those last five seconds before I go. It's almost routine. Like it's muscle memory. I've trained my body to be so rhythmic. You obviously know Greg Louganis. And I spoke with him about when you are having these mental blocks or your brain or your fear is just way too strong. How do you get yourself off that platform? And he was like, treat it like a rhythm. Like if you can somehow do the same breath every single time on the edge of that platform and on that third breath, you're swinging your arms, then you're not even going to think about what to do.

23:07Your body's going to know exactly what to do. And that has changed everything for me. I've turned around on the edge of 20 meter. I count to three. I do a huge exhale and I'm off the platform. I'm already in the water. And I think that's really cool bringing in all the techniques to be able to do something so scary. I think one of the biggest spillover effects of diving for me is it's made it so much easier to face other fears. Anything I've thought about doing professionally as an author or a speaker or a researcher or a teacher, no matter what goal I set for myself or what challenge I take on, this is so much less terrifying than doing my first full twisting two and a half was.

23:48See, you're gaslighting yourself. You're literally like, this is nowhere as near as scary as a reverse two and a half pike on three meters, so I'm fine. literally what goes through my brain all the time, especially on social media. I get a lot of anxiety of why do I have so many followers? I'm not an influencer. Like I just, I jump off cool things, but I don't ever feel like I deserve to be at beauty events or I deserve to be at these different realms because I truly feel like your brain almost pigeonholes you into being like, I'm just a diver and that's hard to get out of as well. So I actually find myself doing the same deep breath before going into something so scary for me that I'm like, did I just do my diving visualization before I walked into this interview?

24:35Like what is happening? And I don't think I've ever backed down from an opportunity where I am planted on the ground because it just will never be as scary as cliff diving. And of course, it's scary in different ways, but you want to just get out of your comfort zone and get there. And if it's not life or death, go for it, you know? So it's not gaslighting then, it's reality. Because at the end of the day, anything else you could do when it comes to posting on social media or getting on a stage, the worst pain you're going to get is other people's negative opinions. Those do not hurt nearly as much as the water when you're going as fast as you do.

25:16Okay, Molly, so you mentioned, or you alluded to at least, your Olympic trials experience in 2016. So if my memory serves me right, you'd been basically training for a decade and a half to make the Olympics, and you missed the team by one place. I had the dream since I was four years old to go to the Olympics. I grew up watching it. My family was so obsessed with the Olympics, and I was like, I want to do this. And as I became 15 leading into the 2016 Olympic trials, I mean, I did have a situation where a coach did tell me at 15 that I was too fat to ever go to the Olympics. And I think those words scarred me for life.

26:02And those are still with me to this day. Like someone told me this and I was in a beautiful, healthy body doing the sport that I loved. But in the moment, you trust these positions of power, especially in the sport of diving. You need to trust your coaches because you're doing something so scary. And it's crazy. You can be so ready for something and your brain will tell you you're not good enough. And I think this is where my anxiety really struggled was, you know, I was diagnosed at a really young age with generalized anxiety disorder. I think I was 10. And so when that trust got betrayed and it bled into my appearance, I really hit rock bottom.

26:43And that was the year of the 2016 Olympic trials. And that's when I started shifting. Okay, am I supposed to look a different way? Am I supposed to be smaller? And it was just a really terrible time in my life where I didn't even tell anyone that I was told that for years. and my mom and I moved to Toronto to just try to be the best I can be to make this Olympic dream come true and that year in Toronto I was just so anxious I was eating under 300 calories a day trying to perform at 30 hours a week you can't be doing that and my body tried to tell me my hair was falling out my wrist I had two operations because they were just so fragile and I was just a malnourished person.

27:30Like it was devastating. And that's why when these Olympic trials happen, top two go to the Olympics and I was fourth by a few points. You know how close points can be in diving. And a few points and you're not going to your dream. And what I thought would have been devastation was so much relief, Adam. Like I can't even explain to you that feeling of not going to the Olympics was the first moment I was like, oh my gosh, I can breathe. I can get help. I can talk to someone. The pressure's over. You can finally almost eat something. You know, this was a really dark time. And sorry, I did not trigger warning eating disorders.

28:12I'm sure you'll talk about that. But at the end of the day, it was really, really scary. And I just know that sometimes you need to not have your dreams come true, to step out of that perspective and to know that there's so much more to life than a dream that didn't come true. Wow. Oh, so much to react to. First of all, the evidence on trigger warnings suggests that they don't work and they might even backfire. Great. Perfect. So I think you're in good shape there. What happens in most cases is the warning causes anticipatory anxiety and then you feel it again when the topic comes up. Exactly.

28:51So you get a double dose. I don't think we want that. Perfect. Secondly, you buried the lead, a cliff diver with generalized anxiety disorder. What? Crazy. Are you out of your mind? Absolutely. I crave my brain to shut off my entire life. And as soon as I jump, it's just me in the air for those three seconds. And anxiety doesn't exist. Like, it's just, it's beautiful. It's bliss. We need to get you a higher platform and a parachute then. Please, please. Just to extend it. I would love that. So, okay, let's talk a little bit about the eating disorder challenges. I think, you know, in addition to your acrobatic excellence, I think this is probably the other thing that my daughters admire so much about you is you've been a major force for body positivity.

29:44and I can't imagine this as easy in a sport that's so appearance-based. So how have you handled body dysmorphia in a sport where body image is so salient and so central to what you do? I think what makes judge sports worse is that you're wearing almost nothing. This does not help. If I could wear a sweatsuit and go do my job, I'd be like, oh, no one can see my body. Like, it's fine. Like, I'll do 18 flips. Like, it doesn't matter. but you're in these small bathing suits literally showing if you're bloated, everyone can see that. If you have cellulite, everyone can see that. And this haunted me for years.

30:26My genetics are cellulite everywhere. And like now I love it. I'm like, hell yeah, I jump off cliffs with cellulite. Like you can't do what I do, literally. And it took me a while to get there. But back when I thought I was the only one having cellulite and doing this sport. I'm like, am I supposed to quit because I have flaws? What we think are flaws. I've always loved diving, but I almost quit so many times because of how I looked. And that's terrible. You should never quit something you love because of how you look. And I think that is something I really want to drive home is, you know, how can I make that difference?

31:07And it really comes with videos of guys, I have so much cellulite, but I'm going to jump anyways. It's just a really, really tough topic to talk about. And I still get nervous posting those because of course there's haters everywhere and online people behind their screens typing, Oh, are you pregnant? Are you? I'm like, no, I'm not pregnant. And people are literally, that's bad for the baby. You shouldn't do this. I'm like, guys, I'm literally not pregnant. Like, this is me. And now I can laugh about it. But if 16-year-old Molly had social media and got a comment, are you pregnant? Game over. I'm quitting the sport.

31:45You know what I mean? And so changing that narrative is so important to me. And I think we're trying our best to do the best job I could do. It's been very powerful to watch you do it. Thank you. And as a role model, sharing your mental health struggles makes it easier for other people to face theirs. I think it can also be a burden. How do you deal with that? I see a lot in my DMs of personal conversations and it can become a lot. It can get really dark really fast because mental health can be all over the spectrum. You know what I mean? But I find answering millions of these is not my job. Like there is going to be consistent messages and consistent people going through tough times.

32:30And I don't need to take that on as a burden. I don't need to take on everyone's mental health struggles as my own. Because when I started, I did. You know, there's an empath side of all of us where you want everyone to be okay. And you have to set boundaries at some point. And I finally learned boundaries. I'm really proud of that. But it is tricky. You do need to learn to let other people fight their battles as well. But just be that safe space for them to finally talk about it. And I think that's step one for sure. Well, in creating Brave Gang, I think you've done that for millions of people.

33:05I'm curious about how Brave Gang has affected you. Ooh, Brave Gang is my little safe space, my little community of joy where you can be anyone and everyone. You can be yourself and be so loved. And that has literally given me so much confidence to do what I do. Again, I could have easily relapsed and fallen into, I'm representing Team Canada all over again. I'm going to let people down. I'm going to be judged and people are going to be looking at my body. But I think what has kept me strong and what has kept me fighting for self-love and fighting for self-care was the Brave Gang. Now I can go online and I can share some of the darkest things I'm going through and I can say, guys, I'm relapsing today.

33:58I really hate the body that I'm in today. I didn't want to go to practice and I took the day off because I was just so scared to get in a swimsuit. And the positive messages, like it's absolutely insane. you can do this. We don't care what your body looks like. Sending so much love. Go back when you're ready. Like this is so beautiful to have a community in my corner that I never thought I would have supporting me. Brave gang, of course, is something I want to give back to others and help people feel their bravest. But they don't know that by creating this community, they're helping me feel my bravest.

34:38Well, everyone deserves to be part of a community like that. It's amazing that you've created it.

34:46All right. Are you ready for a lightning round? Ooh, let's do it. Who are your dream dinner party guests? I feel like Tom Daley and Greg Louganis. I would have a great chat with them. What is the worst advice that you hear people give about dealing with fear and anxiety? Worst advice would be get rid of it. Fear should not be there. What's your favorite tip that we haven't already covered? Be kind to yourself. You're allowed to fail. Do you have an unpopular opinion or hot take that you're excited to defend? All bodies can go to the Olympics. What about something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?

35:31I've recently changed my mind about practicing too much. I find that mental training is just as important as physical. And then what's a question you have for me? Oh my gosh. Do you know why divers chase that feeling of fear almost? Well, I think your answer to that was a different one than I've ever heard before, which is that it quiets your mind. It never occurred to me because a dive is so short that you would chase that three-second sort of escape. I think for me, the appeal, and I see this in a lot of the research actually, is the idea of facing a challenge and overcoming it. So it's not actually the fear that I'm seeking.

36:17It's seeing a huge obstacle in front of me and wanting to clear it. And experiencing then a sense of personal growth and pride. that for me is a big motivator. I love that. All right. Last question for you. My understanding is that you got into diving when you were a kid because you wanted to fly. There was just something in me that I wanted to soar. I wanted to do something so cool and jump off something so high and feel proud of myself. And it brings me back to, I was carefree you when I was eight years old trying these 10 meter jumps and I didn't care what other people thought I was doing it for me.

36:59That's what I keep trying to get back to is that feeling of, of freedom and just me in the air, no toxic thoughts, no worries about what other people think and just, just soaring for you because you love it. So definitely wanted to fly since I was, I was little. Oh, I love that. Well, I definitely have some choice words for that coach who said such a horrible thing to you, but I feel like you've kind of shown him. Oh, yeah. I think this conversation with Molly is such a powerful reminder that confidence doesn't always come from believing in yourself today. It often stems from recalling the obstacles you overcame yesterday.

37:42A history of resilience can silence self-doubt. Challenges conquered are clues to hidden strengths, and past progress is proof of future potential.

37:56Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Graham. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar-Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact-checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hailash, Van Ben Cheng, Julia Dickerson,

38:24What's the most scared you've ever been in your life? It would have to be having panic attacks about mortality. Yeah. Hands down. Wow. It's the only thing that I've found scarier than diving, actually. Panic attacks are a whole new world of fear. Agreed. But also, reframes everything else is less scary. You know what? You always find the positive. I try. Positive gaslighting for the win.