Is emotional regulation always a good thing? with Julie Bowen and Aliza Pressman

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1:57You've come to the right place. I was going to offer to rearrange your closet. I have a feeling that's not it. You don't label the snacks in the pantry. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist. What is an organization about? What then? And I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Julie Bowen is an Emmy award-winning actress, best known from her roles as Claire on Modern Family and Happy Gilmore's Love Interest, Virginia.

2:34For this conversation with Julie, I have a co-host, one of our past guests, developmental psychologist Elisa Pressman. You might know her from her podcast, Raising Good Humans. She's an expert on translating research into actionable info. And she's also related to Julie by marriage. Julie, Elisa, and I had an unusually delightful chat about authenticity, emotional intelligence, and parenting. But before she let us ask any questions, Julie wanted to understand what exactly I do. What is an organizational psychology? I could have been like a male Marie Kondo. Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought, ooh, we're going to talk about organizing our junk drawer.

3:11But do you want to give me the one sentence that Reader's Digest? So originally, I thought my job was to make work not suck. Okay. And that has turned out to be really hard. So now I'm on a more modest mission to make life suck less. Life? It's easier to make life suck less than making work suck less? I think so, because it gives you more spheres and aspects of your existence that you actually have control over. Okay. All right. Maybe. Well, I don't know. I think another way to say this is I try to do for adults what Elisa does for parents and kids. Julie's like, still not with you. But, okay.

3:51Okay, so it's not terrifying even though Matt Damon and J.J. Abrams asked like really heavy questions. You've done your homework, Julie. Yeah. She's no joke. Wow. You realize you're the guest, not the host, right? No, but you have to know what you're getting into. I all decided, Jessica - No, you just need to know you. No, no. No, I don't. No, I don't. So how do you guys do this? That's a really good question. We don't know. We're going to invent it as we go along. Okay. I do need to say, Julie, I feel like I know you, even though I don't, because I've been a fan since Happy Gilmore, of course.

4:25One of the defining movies of my upbringing. But I actually think I feel most attached to Carol Vesey. Oh, okay. You won my heart. I was an Ed super fan and I still dream of buying a bowling alley and fixing it up because of that show. Okay. You just really won my heart because that was such a special show. It was such a special time. We all were all still really close. Everybody met their spouses on that. We all went to each other's weddings and baby showers. So it was just such a magical time. And we were shooting in an old, literally an old like family fun center in New Jersey. And it was, we were so isolated working such long hours, but that was just my chosen family at the time.

5:16I loved it. So thank you. I'm so happy to hear that. There's something about the tone and feeling of that show that I've rarely ever seen on a screen before. And I think, I actually think Ted Lasso gets closer to it than anything I've seen since. Yeah, and it was an hour long. It was a dramedy. So yeah, I wish they would still do things like that, but they don't. Elisa, are you a fan? Did you watch it? She doesn't know what it is. This is terribly awkward. She has no idea what it is. You haven't seen it? Why would she? know. I know about it. But we, Modern Family is our comfort food. I mean, everybody, her own family watches it as comfort food.

5:58I feel like every character you've played, Julie, is 3D. I felt this from the beginning with Happy Gilmore, that you expect a very stereotypical Hollywood story. And you think there's going to be a perfect girl and the guy's going to not succeed at first. And then at the end, they're going to hit it off. I felt like you always added in a layer of, it might be messiness. It might be sass. There was always some edge or a twist. Not perfect. And it just, it felt more real. It was not perfect. I'm not, I'm definitely not perfect. I do struggle with the idea of being an idealized feminine. And I'm very flattered that you notice that I try to fight against that, Adam.

6:42That's very nice of you. Because there's a world in which I could just be the girlfriend or the wife, you know, and have been or have gotten that role. But I do try to make it human because even the girlfriends and the wives, if they're underwritten or whatever, they still, there's still people. You got to play them like people. So I appreciate that. Well, I appreciate that you appreciate that. Everyone's getting along too well. And what I'm thinking is it would be fun to have something that we disagree on to be more Adam Grant-y. But it's probably not going to happen. So maybe we start with— Oh, we can find it.

7:20Oh, I disagree. Really? Well, yeah, we'll get there. I feel like maybe we should start with quitting. Because, Julie, apparently you're a big quitter. Well, I did a podcast a few years ago called Quitters. And I quit. At the end, I quit the podcast. I did, which was the right thing for me to do. I do think that there's things you just have to let go of when they're not serving you. I enjoyed the experience. I have no bad blood with anybody. It just wasn't this thing that we're doing right here. It's time consuming and difficult. And it's a full time job. And yet people act like it's like two minutes of your day, whatever.

8:00So it just wasn't fitting into my life post pandemic. And I was going back to work like in IRL on a set. But I love quitting. I love saying, nope, I've hit my wall. There's nothing wrong with that. And that, I think, is a benefit of getting older. I think when you're younger, you constantly feel like you can never quit anything. And there's still things that I'm like, I'll quit when I win. You know, just not exactly quitting. But knowing when it's time to walk away is, I think, really important. Okay, I fully agree so far. I want to hear from both of you about what are your principles for when to walk away.

8:40And also, Aliza, I'm going to ask you to do a professional diagnosis of Julie's quitting skills. Well, I do love when Angela Duckworth says never quit on a bad day. I think that's a good pro tip. But I do, I think it's confusing because we really want to instill that then this might be just my lens, but instill persistence as a skill for kids and responsibility and accountability. But then we can go too far, like, with everything. And then you get kids who are like, I can't quit something, and it's not serving you or other people anymore. So I am curious about where that line is for you, Julie.

9:23Well, I'm raising three teenage boys, and they're just all had a birthday. So they're 19, 17 and 17 now. And, you know, I don't encourage them to quit new challenges. When one of them was younger, he wanted to do water polo. It's like, no, you don't. That is hard. But I had him work out with a coach and tried a few times before he committed to this. I think it was eight or 10 week program. And he hated it. Three days in, he got out of the pool and was like, nope, I am done. And that was a real battle. And I said, no, you made a commitment. You have to do this. And I did not win that one because he was so hysterical over this.

10:13and I had to, I actually had to back away because I was always told, no, no, no. And my mother and father was like, if you sign up, you finish whatever it is. But I do remember signing up once for a dance class at the height of the flash dance mania. And we had a dance class at school and the teacher told me I was good. So I signed up for a real one, not a beginner one. And the day one, they were doing splits and like spinning. And I was so out of my league. And I got in the car afterwards and sobbed. And I said, Mom, I am out of my league. She said, we don't quit. And I was like, this was the wrong choice.

10:54It was just wrong. And she did let me quit. There are times when you are wrong and it's okay. But for me, I know the question was, how do you know it's time? I think it's more of like that itch at first. You know, I've dated since I got divorced and I've quit quite a few people that I've dated. And to me, it's about when you know, you just, it's a gut feeling really. I cannot do this long term. I have gamed it out. I've looked at all of the options. And then I really think it's important to quit the right way. so to say to somebody very earnestly this isn't going any further I totally understand that it's upsetting you to have let them have their feelings to check back in but give them space and when my kid quit that sport I made him write the letter to the coach because I was like You never want to be somewhere and see somebody and go cringe.

12:02And learning how to quit properly and be polite and clean up all the loose ends is not an easy skill. People want to ghost now. It's like, what if I just don't answer? That's not really a good skill. I love, I was not thinking about quitting with people, but I think it's a great point. And I think that cringe, that like, I so feel it. Like when you see somebody and you're like, the last interaction I had or the last email I did not respond to, I don't feel great about that. I think that's a good test. Yeah, you don't want to walk into a room and be like, oh God, I have to lie to them about why I haven't responded to their texts or why I haven't returned that email or RSVP'd to whatever.

12:51and it's not easy, but it's being a grownup to be like, I know you're not going to like this, or you may need to need time away from me, but this is what's happening. Okay. So this is interesting. I'm thinking about connecting this to Angela's point about not quitting on a bad day. What I want to know is how many bad days in a row do you have to have before it's time to quit? To me, it's less about the bad days and more. I always liked, Are you hungry, angry, lonely, or tired? You know, halt. If you're hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, it's not the time to do anything. Like, you need to either, you know, go work out, sleep, eat, do whatever it is.

13:30And that's also, that is a great thing about being older and falling off the hormonal cliff. I'm just like, oh, I have so fewer of those days where I'm just pissed off or annoyed. Right. So I can think really calmly about stuff and go, yeah, that that is that's just not going to work for me. And I think accepting that you cannot change people is something that also comes with age. I think there's a lot, especially in relationships when you're younger and thinking, but if only you'd and you were that person once. And then one time you remember you made the bed and you wash the dishes and everything was perfect.

14:13Can't you be that person again? You know, it's not happening. Stop trying to change the person. Can you accept who they are right now? And yeah, there's some fine tuning that you ask to respect your boundaries and whatnot. But you're not going to make someone who doesn't fly on a plane fly on a plane. I am so torn on this. Elisa, do you know Sandra Murray's research? Mm-mm. I love these studies. Basically, you get couples early stage to talk about who they think their partners are. And one of the things you can see when you compare people's self ratings to their partner's ratings of them is you can see who sees their partner through rose colored glasses.

14:51Somebody idealizes their partner as just something that they are not. And then the question is what happens to those couples if you follow them for months or years later? So the people who had these positive expectations of their partner were more likely to encourage them to move in the direction they wanted. You wanted a more organized, responsible partner. You thought they were that way. When they messed up, you weren't as harsh on them. And the conclusion from the study was love is not blind. It's prescient. Because if you set the right expectations, you can actually cause a self-fulfilling prophecy within reason.

15:27I mean, I buy the self-fulfilling prophecy, but I wonder if part of the rose-colored glasses is just about seeing—now I'm going to use all these words that are going to feel like it's because it's Adam here—but the hidden potential of that person. For example, and I think Julie knows this about me, but I am married to somebody who's the cleanest person in the world next to Julie. No, no, no, no. No, no. God love him, but like this, and he's taking the glass away and cleaning it. You're like, I'm just going to— Like it's nonstop. Now, I'm older and I met him at a later time in life, but I found that to be an extraordinarily relaxing trait because I feel great about it.

16:17Yeah. Like, I'm like, I don't have to lift a finger here. This guy loves organizing and cleaning and I love not. So it really works out well. And I think if I had like at a younger age, I or he might have tried to look at that trait as like changeable on either of our ways of being. But instead, I think my glasses are rose colored in that I appreciate the trait. And he's like, is this ever going to annoy you? Of course it's not going to annoy me. It's fantastic. But I think it's a lens, but I just don't know that I buy that the lens could be rose-colored and delusional. Well, it reminded me, though, what Adam was saying.

17:07It kind of stuck in my craw because I thought, you know what this sounds like? Parenting. It sounds like when your kids, especially when they're younger, And you're like, I know you hit Sally in the face because the school called me. And I know that you must have been really frustrated because that's not who you are. You're not a violent person. You don't hurt your friends. I mean, that's what it sounds like to me. And I want to know what Aliza thinks because I like have mixed. If only we had a parenting expert to weigh in. Exactly. I do think kids, like, see themselves through the lens that we see them.

17:48And if we see them as who they are, and also we're seeing the version of them that is, again, it's like, I guess you could call it rose-colored glasses, but of course they're not a violent person. There had to have been a reason. It doesn't mean you accept that. But I think it could be that it's related in that, you know, we are seeing the version of them that they can be when they are allowed to be. When somebody believes in them, it's just not trying to turn them into a different person. But does that work with a peer-to-peer to adults? Sounds like it. I think it could. There's actually, there's a study on this.

18:32Michael Hausman and Dylan Miner, they study what happens when you are, basically you're in your office and your desk gets moved. And now you're sitting next to somebody who's more productive. Your productivity goes up by about 10%. And I don't know if you're afraid that they're watching you and you don't want to look like a slacker. I think what's more likely is you're picking up some of their habits. And I think that's the same thing that's happening in these relationships. And it's the same thing that's happening with parents. Aliza, I think you're spot on. I think it's not delusional. It's there's some latent potential.

19:05There's some possibility that's not fully realized. And you're kind of, you're bringing that out in them as opposed to causing it. But I remember, I mean, my ex who I get along with great, no problems. I'm not, but he used to, is very funny and said, oh, you're doing your hobbies. You love your hobbies, laundry and dishes. I was like, isn't it my hobbies? I'm doing them because they have to be done. That has been a refrain. Now the whole family refers to laundry and dishes as my hobbies, as if these are the things that I choose to do with my free time. And there are moments when I get confused, like I'm being brainwashed because I'm doing the laundry and I'm doing the dishes.

19:51And I'm like, no, I'm doing this because it needs to be done and I like doing it well. and it really frustrates me when it's not done well. So I prefer to do it. That doesn't make it my hobby, but I feel like to Adam's point, somehow this has become, now it's groupthink. It's not just in the couple. It's like everybody has agreed that Julie loves laundry and dishes, so let her do them. You don't think that that's part of the research? I think we need an intervention. What? I think, I mean, this is the perfect time to say, hey, you know how I'm really into quitting? I'm quitting all my hobbies.

20:29Oh, I don't think I could though, because then I'd live in abject filth. I disagree. You wouldn't because I witnessed her son when he was 16. Yeah. He just started doing the dishes because there were a bunch of people over for dinner. Yeah. And I was thinking, oh, somebody's picking up this habit, this hobby. This hobby. Because I passed along my love of dishes. Because no one else was doing it. And I'll tell you, none of the other teenagers were like, oh, maybe I should start doing this. So I do think all of these things are contagious. I mean, we're talking about a very specific thing of these hobbies of cleaning, but I think this translates to plenty of other things.

21:10Okay. So this raises a bigger question. Julie, I'm going to ask you this in multiple parts of your life. So let's think about this in dating and also in choosing your next project. nobody is exactly who you want them to be. It's true for a potential partner. It's true for a collaborator. How do you decide whether there's latent potential there to change them or help them evolve or kind of unlock something that's in them versus no, this person is a lost cause. No, thank you. Wow. So you're talking about the start of something. Yeah. At the beginning. I mean, I think at the beginning of a project or a relationship, you have to, I have to not go in with how do I change this.

21:59It's more what can I control? They're not changing. What can I control in this space? If it's a director who's fantastic or a director who's a nightmare, obviously the fantastic one, great. But if they're nightmarish or demanding or whatever, you know, what can I change? And I only have control over me. I think that I thought that when I was younger, like, I can get him there. I can get her there. And I still, you know where I'd still do that? Family. I love my family. I love them. But with family, that's where maybe it's regressive, where you're having an argument with your mother or you're spiraling in the same damn spiral you've done a thousand times.

22:45And I think, how can I get her to understand that email and text are different in a way that doesn't inflame her and upset her and thereby bring forth this patient person who isn't going to lose her mind over tech? But with other people, I can't imagine trying to do that at this stage. Do you try to do that? Does Aliza, do you try to do that? I have, I think as we get older, we have the humility to realize that we cannot change people. And so we stop, hopefully, and also with family, of course, we go back to old patterns so easily. Yeah, I think I've always been playing, I feel like I've always been playing defense.

23:30And I think what Adam feels like, I'm going to talk about Adam as if he's not here right now. That's my favorite thing. Adam, I'm starting to pick up that like where your core competency, which you said you came from, was work environment. Like that feels to me like a leadership role or a parenting role. Like somebody who's in a power position, how do you unlock the potential of the people who are reporting to you or to children who you do have your fingers in that clay? Peer-to-peer, I think it's, man, that's harder. That's a lot harder. I don't know how to do that peer-to-peer. Much harder. Is that accurate, do you think, my assessment of your core competency?

24:20Spot on. Yes. Yeah, and it's one of the reasons that I think there's so much overlap between what Elisa studies and what I study. Is, yeah, whether it's a leader or a parent, you are in a position of influence. And you have a receptive audience, more or less. Yes, yes, you do. But when it's peer-to-peer, like there's sometimes, you know, you know your ninja tricks that you do in professional settings. You know, even if you wildly disagree with someone, you're like, that's a great point. or I can totally see how you came to that. I always want to drop that in my personal relationships, but I have discovered I have to bring it in more and more because we're just getting older and more complex and you can't just have big blowups and fights like you did when you were a teenager and then get back together again.

25:13You have to say, I understand, I get it. You're doing more right than you are wrong. That's one I say to my kids a lot. But peer-to-peer, it's hard when you bring in your ninja skills and then you see it works. And you want to be like, are you kidding me? I just ninja'd you. I just mind-ninja'd you into cleaning the bathroom. Like, I don't want to do that. We're peers. We're like in this together. You should clean the bathroom. Do you lose respect? I just, it feels like I lose authenticity. as... Because you're being a little manipulative? Because there's like, there's the thought and instead of there then being the like natural speech, there's a stop and processing thing about how do I get the outcome that I want from this and then when it works, you feel like it just, it does feel like being a boss or a parent and that I resent.

26:15What is the ninja technique? And who are you inflicting it on? I'm so wanting to dive into that. Adult friends and peers, mostly. The ninja skills would be along the lines of things like just basic. That's really interesting that you're so frustrated right now. I get that. Are you open to an observation? That kind of shit. Which I do. I do that now. And I'm like, I kind of hate myself for it, but it does work. This episode is sponsored by Skylight. The transition from summer vacation to the school year can be a busy one. Between classroom schedules, sports practices, and appointments, it makes all the difference when the whole family's on the same page.

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29:35Okay, so we have to act this out. Okay. I mean, these are the situations that cause, like, I'm thinking about college roommates. This is how friendships end when people room together. So Elisa, I'm curious about what you would say to be more authentic and still motivate behavior change. So it sounds like getting somebody to clean the room or clean common space, like clean up their dishes is a common one. What's your more transparent, more authentic version? I'm just thinking about because my oldest went off to college. Julie's oldest went off to college. Yours is about two. And I do think the roommate situation is their first time of having to practice not just being so authentic like you would be in your household.

30:21And so maybe the scripts are not helpful because we all recognize them. And they're just like, oh, okay, so you've done personal work. And you know how to communicate well. But it can be like needling because we all are aware of it now. And so now if you picture roommates going in to meet each other and have a conversation about doing the dishes, I think they have to talk in advance about their expectations. Because coming in with complaints or ganging up or the things that typically happen, especially with roommate situations, is ineffective. But if you chimed in as a 19-year-old, 18-year-old, and you said, you're doing more good than you are not, and I really appreciate that.

31:14and also it'd be great if you could put your dishes away, clean them up so we don't get mice in the dorm. I still think it's not going to go over as well as just saying like, how can we figure out how to all live together in a way that makes us each have to give a little and take a little. Oh my God, I keep doing this to Adam. I like take his phrases and then put them into our conversation. but I think those scripts that like Julie I don't know if you think of those as a script but we all recognize them so I think they're just in our culture they're such a good step to make you pause because you have to think about the language that you're using and then if you just change the language to not be so perfect you can get to your authentic self but I have no problem with the forced sense of pause because then you're regulated right right Right.

32:12I understand that. And I do agree with that. And there are other ways. You're right. Saying, like, are you open to criticism is, are you open to an observation is so therapized. It does say, I'm doing the work, but it also is like alienating. And how are two 19-year-olds going to go into a situation or 18-year-olds and sort of pre-have those discussions that they don't even know they're going to need to have. Well, I mean, one way is because we can tell them, how do you plan on dealing with that? Because it's going to come up. I mean, I think it's kind of wild also just our different family experiences.

32:59And like Adam said something to me once that blew my mind, which was he doesn't get angry. Like he doesn't express anger, right? Like you don't yell it. You never lose it at that level. What? Am I right? I don't think I've ever yelled at someone before. And in fact, one of our kids said the other day, stop yelling. And I think I was probably talking like this instead of like I'm talking now. I was like, if you want to hear yelling. And it was so foreign to them and to me too, that I realize, yeah, I don't do that. I might get animated. Because you don't want to? You've never had the urge? I don't feel intense anger.

33:37Does that? Okay. I just get frustrated. Okay, what about on a, just on a global scale, no matter what side of the fence you're on, you see injustices that are enraging? I don't get enraged. I get, I don't know what I get. I get maybe morally outraged a little bit, but it doesn't come out as, it comes out as, this is wrong. We need to fix it. I just thought that was fascinating because if you came from a family, like in my family, my grandparents spoke another language. And they sounded like they were yelling all the time. And my grandfather is 101, still sounds like that. and I would always ask my parents like what are they saying and they were like they're just saying I love you and the truth is if you hear my family together it does sound like there's just a lot of confusion between what is yelling and what is loud and what's effusive and what is anger and And so I don't get as like, I don't even hear it.

34:45But when my culturally different spouse met them, he was like, there's so much yelling. Like, it was so shocking. And so I imagine it would be the same experience going into a roommate situation, for example, or any situation with multiple people, hearing different things from those feelings. I think it's fascinating. You really have to adjust. Yeah. I really like your idea, Elisa, of going in and saying, let's discuss in advance how we're going to handle the inevitable conflicts. And I don't know, there's a good body of evidence to suggest that if we can anticipate some of those likely conflicts in advance and kind of tell each other our pet peeves, that it's a little bit easier to navigate around them and also not freak out when one of those things happens.

35:36So I'd be inclined to be much more direct on this now, having lost a couple of roommates as a college student. And I just say, hey, Julie, it drives me crazy when dirty dishes are left in the sink. And I know you would never intentionally drive you crazy. And so I just want to let you know that if you don't want me to start resenting you and then stop liking you. And then eventually this whole situation blows up. It would probably be in all of our best interests for you to not leave dirty dishes in the sink. And I would love to know what your pet peeves are so I can avoid stepping on your toes too.

36:12I mean, I cannot imagine boys having that conversation. Also, well, my boys live in their own filth so that it is, it is different. And my oldest choosing college's roommate is every bit as filthy as he is. And It's disgusting. But you just gamed the whole thing out. It sounded almost like the nicest threat ever. That's exactly the goal. I am telling you, here's a situation we both want to avoid. And here's my roadmap for how you can make sure you don't accidentally lead us there. But you're assuming the other person in that case is super rational. And, you know, you come across those people in work and life who they're chaos agents.

36:53They're standing in New York. They say they want to go to Maine, but they are hitchhiking south. You know, you're like, you're not doing what you said you were going to do. Every action you take takes you further from your goals and you have to go. That's an example of somebody that I try to quit very quickly. When I see people who are set up, I'm like, you say you want this, you say you want that, you say you want to lose weight, but you eat a sheet cake for breakfast. Like, that is generally a mindset that I can't really get into on a personal level. But professionally, you have to deal with it.

37:30If it's your roommate, you've got to deal with it. Those people don't respond to reasonable, like, hey, you don't want this to happen, and I don't want this to happen. Because they're like, maybe I do. Then you deal with it. Yeah. Yeah, then you do it. All right, Aliza, how do you deal with those people? I think in that case, like when in doubt, you just figure out like, what do I need to get through this rooming situation or this work situation? You would quit that if that were a relationship. But I don't have a problem with also saying to yourself, I'm going to do the dishes because I don't want to live like this.

38:09and I'm also going to make a very clear decision that I'm not living with this person again or I'm not working with this person unless you have to. In which case, again, it's like, what can you control? We can say all the things to other people, but you can't change other people's behavior and guarantee that you're gonna get what you're looking for. So in situations where you have no choice, but yeah, you'll grow resentful. Somebody will be cleaning the dishes and sighing and moaning, but it's a lot easier to just say, this is information so that I can make different choices when I have them. And in the meantime, I have to do the bare minimum to keep myself from going crazy.

38:48Do you think, Adam, that in your life, I want to circle back to something that's kind of none of my business. You should definitely go there then. The fact that you are rational and you experience a moral outrage as a, how do I change this? On the flip side, do you experience great highs, like passionate love, or are you sort of blunted on the ends? And that's, I like being blunted on the darker end, but do you get blunted on the higher end? Ooh, I think less so than on the negative side, but maybe a little bit. I think my highs don't last as long and I think they don't go as high as a lot of other people's.

39:36Like, I just don't live on an emotional roller coaster. Yeah. Right. But if you experience whatever euphoria is for you and it's reasonable and it feels good, then that sounds great. I think, you know, actually, I think it not only feels great, I think it's useful too. There's a, sorry, I'm going to quote another study here. I'm thinking about the Paul Volta's work on wisdom where people are asked to nominate the wisest person they know. And then all these people recognized as wise are interviewed and surveyed and followed and compared to people in their community who are, you know, less wise.

40:17And one of the hallmarks of wisdom is emotional balance, not overreacting negatively or positively. And I don't know if that is a cause of wisdom. It's easier to become wise if you're kind of even-keeled emotionally and always in equilibrium or whether arriving at wisdom then gives you some kind of equanimity. But I looked at that research and I was like, ooh, I want to be more like that. And I think I first read it when I was in college and going through a bad breakup and really depressed. I was like, I don't want to be that person anymore. I'm going to study psychology and figure out how to change.

40:54And here we are. Adam, you're a dandelion. Like, your highs are a little bit lower and your lows are a little bit higher. But you could survive all of it. And he's sturdy. He's not a flower, a precious flower. But I'm still a flower. Thank you. You're still a flower. But I think the steadiness and the wisdom are easier when you're self-regulated. And yet, we can't have everybody be like that. Because if everybody was self-regulated, what would happen? I mean, nobody would know if the bear is coming. I see. It would be, we would not survive. Also, it would be a really boring world. Yeah, we need a range.

41:36Orchids are full of creative sparks, right? I mean, Julie is. I'm an orchid? Yeah. Am I? I thought they were delicate. They're not really delicate. They have more vulnerability, but then more capacity for flourishability. Oh, I like that. I didn't like it when I thought it was like a hothouse flower that has to be, because I'm very, I am a sturdy sort of a person, but I do struggle with this idea of, not to, this is going to sound very broad, but the self and the authentic self. because, for example, one of my sisters is devoted to the Stoics, and she practices Stoicism on a daily basis, Annie.

42:24Okay. And she reads lots of Marcus Aurelius and all that and sends me podcasts and books, and she is very active in the process of regulating so that she never has to feel like out of control. That's great. And sometimes, though, when I try this, I'm like, that's great, that's great, until it's not great, and then there's this sort of what I'm going to call my authentic self. And I'm putting that in quotes because I don't know, is that authentic to then be like, and you know what, those five times I didn't mention when you were a total asshole? Well, I'm going to mention them now. And you kind of, that voice takes over.

43:12And it feels like the thing that I've been trying to bury when I'm being super regulated and stoic. I would love to know what you think about that being like your authentic self. I want Adam to answer all of this, but I just want to point out that her sister is a physician. And Lord knows you want your physician to be steady. Yeah. Yeah. And she is. Oh, this is so interesting. Well, I think we all have multiple selves. And so being authentic to one often forces you to be inauthentic to another. And Julie, it sounds like you're talking about a conflict between your personality and your values. Wow.

43:55Personality is your tendencies and values are your principles. Oh my God. Wait, say it again, but slower. Okay. So personality versus values. Your personality is your tendencies. You didn't choose them. It's the way you're wired. And your values are your principles that you did pick. What matters to you? What's important to you? And so I think for a lot of people, this is a real conflict because on the one hand, you're saying, okay, it's important to me to be a calming presence or it matters to me to not fly off the handle of people. But on the other hand, if you have to do too much work to suppress those instincts and And you're spending all your energy regulating to the point that you blow up at somebody.

44:37That's going to be a worse violation of your values. And so then you end up in this weird situation where being a little bit inauthentic to your values in the moment in order to be true to your personality allows you to continue living by your values over time. Does that make any sense? That does. Yes. That does. But ideally wouldn't sort of a fully integrated person, their values and their personality would be aligned. he just nods ideally i sure sure good luck with that how's it working for you for me um i mean honestly better over time but my therapist says all the time you can be quiet you can not engage in that but you won't and i'm gonna say i won't i won't because it's I feel like I'm cheating my truest self.

45:36You know, when you sit on your moral outrage, if you see something and you don't do anything about it, and then I feel like I wake up six months later like, what is wrong with me? And that is a struggle of, I guess, as you're saying, personality versus values. Man, that's hard. You seem very aligned, Adam. Why, thank you. I've been practicing for years. I'm glad my acting is working. But were you, I mean, but I know you're joking, but did you have to align them? Oh, yeah, of course. You know, I think it's very situational. So for me, the alignment challenges are mostly in social situations where I have to play extrovert, even though I'm an introvert.

46:24And there are certain roles where that's really easy. if I'm on stage. But I just went to a conference last week where I was not speaking, which is normally something I don't do. And it was awful. It was so hard. People did not know what to talk to me about. I had to explain who I was. I had to work up the nerve to approach people. If I'd just gotten off stage, I would have had a fantastic three days. So no alignment there whatsoever. But why are we talking about me, Aliza? How do you think about, I want to hear about the parenting lens on personality values conflict. How do you think about teaching kids to see the difference between the two and when it's important to actually let their personalities sort of take over versus when they need to override what might be their instinct and think in a more principled way?

47:18I'm going to say something that might not be what you were looking for, and then you can ignore it. But I'm thinking just as you guys are talking about this, let's call it a skill, but effort, it's called effortful control. And it's under the umbrella of self-regulation, but the really intentional part, like when you're talking about integrating your values and your personality, you have to make an intentional decision. That's what you want to do, that you want to kind of look at the long view and work backwards. Like, what do I need to do in order to stay true to my values and integrate like who I am with how I act in the world?

48:08And that is a developing skill that we just have to practice over time. It's really growable, but it's one of those things that without it, like without intentional practice, you're basically depending on like the luck of the draw, if you're capable of it. Did that in any way have anything to do with what you were asking? Yes. And I want to know how you teach that skill and when to turn it off versus on. It starts with paying attention to your values and goals and what you're going to do to manage your behavior and your emotions in order to meet those goals. You're doing that in front of your kids, you're naming it in front of your kids and you're teaching them silly things like young kids.

48:53You can do this by playing music, like freeze dance or something. Like it's not where were you when my kids were toddlers? I love this idea. So you would actually turn on music and say, okay, we're going to freeze. And then you get to basically redo. It's like saved by the bell. Time out. Yes. And you're just exercising the skill of your whole self wanting to be moving, but you have a goal, which is to stop when the music stops and then start again. And it seems ridiculous, but like you're exercising a muscle that eventually is going to turn into something really important. And if you do it with like deep thinking and deep feeling and deep intention, it's not going to land as well as if you're doing it in these small ways over time.

49:47Wow. I missed the boat on that. And now it's over. And now it's done. And now my kids are dysregulated forever. You know, one of our listeners is going to make this an Olympic sport. We're going to have Olympic freeze dance. We're going to see which kid can achieve the most mastery of effortful control to the point that they can freeze on command. Effortful control. I know. It's a terrible—I think there has to be a better way to articulate that. But it's involving, as you said, the wizard brain for little kids, in the lizard brain, and buying those cognitive pauses. When my kids were little, this is the one—I'm searching my brain for something I did right.

50:36I'm like, tell me— You did it all right? I did a lot. I did more right than wrong. But we, my kids were, and yours too, Aliza, and I'm getting at them as well. I mean, they were the first iPad, iPhone kids. And we had to figure out how to manage that. There was no science yet. There was no data, but we all had a suspicion like they shouldn't have this thing all the time, right? And so my kids had, you know, 30 minutes of iPad time and then it would be taken away and there was a meltdown every time. And I had friends who's like, just don't give it to them ever. And like, then they're not going to learn how to manage their disappointment and how to understand that boundary and limits are something that we're going to enforce.

51:31And they can count on that. There's a timer. You set it. When the timer goes off, I'm taking it away. You're going to— And they eventually stopped getting so wildly upset about it. That's my version of what Aliza was talking about. I love that. You're growing their frustration tolerance. Yes, that's it. That's what I always say. I know anything's out of name, but yes. Okay, that. You know, that's interesting. It also tracks with an experiment I read recently on digital moderation versus digital abstinence. Yes. Where some people are randomly assigned to just cut off cold turkey from their smartphones and social media, and others are randomly assigned to just reduce by an hour a day.

52:15And if you follow them afterward, it's the moderation approach that wins. Yeah. Because when you do the abstinence thing, the moment you get your device back, you haven't built any new habits. And all over again, you're at the mercy of the pings. Whereas when you had to practice reducing an hour a day, you built up your tolerance. But it encourages that kind of black and white thinking that we have when we're younger, where it's that all or nothing thinking that like, you guys are going to have much better words for this than I do. But you see adults who weren't taught how to regulate those things and their parents are sort of giant children and then they raise giant children and they're still it's all or nothing.

53:00It's black and white that two truths cannot be held at the same time. And I don't know. Binary bias. What? Binary bias is the term for it. That's what I was looking for. Of course, it was on the tip of my tongue, Adam. I don't know why I didn't think of it. Where do you get all these studies? I need to read these studies. But we're going to subscribe you to an academic journal of Aliza's choice. Developmental psychology. It's coming every month now. But what do you do, Aliza? You must get this all the time. Like, this conversation is a little panicking in a way because I'm like, oh, no, the ship has sailed.

53:37I have 17, 17, and 19. I'm like, did I, how do you introduce this kind of idea of incremental regulation to a young adult? By the way, our brains, bless them, are dynamic. They're changing. They're plastic. It's easier when they're younger, but this is a forever process. And we all know this because we've all been talking about how over the years we've become more self-regulated because of growth and wisdom and hormones and various things. So I actually think it's never too late. And also, you might not have known the name for some of the things you were doing. You were still doing them. I mean, I obviously have insight because I know you're parenting and you're kids.

54:28And I also see she's a real teen whisperer for another day. But I hope it's not panicking. It's a natural thing that's occurring in families, and we're just naming it. And maybe just people can emphasize it a little bit more. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money, and momentum. A good hire, they can change everything. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes and find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built HiringPro. It's your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you.

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57:14I am realizing we are over time. We are way over time. But I have a question. All right. Ask your question. For your office hours. okay oh oh let's go to office hours you have a question julie yeah oh yes okay i've written this down so it sounds written so i apologize doesn't sound conversational but the sort of post achievement identity vacuum you know after you've reached a huge goal people people asking for a friend who is me may feel like disoriented or empty rather than just fulfilled. I mean, when a project is done, you know, modern family finished and my kids got their licenses and one of them goes to college and you just feel this like this, wow, why can't I just be happy about the things I've achieved as opposed to this kind of the letdown, you know, of after a big project.

58:14and it's great. And then like, there's this empty feeling. What is that? Oh, I love this question. Aliza, you want to go first? I was just thinking about what a beautiful but difficult position it is to get to a point in life where you aren't told. There is some ease and comfort in just being told what you want for a while. And to realize there's just a really hard space where you have this realization. There's literally no, I am the boss. And now I think at this, in this era for you and for many people, we get to the point where that's a, it's freedom is a very hard thing. And then freedom plus uncertainty.

58:58Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm thinking about, first I was thinking about the honeymoon hangover effect, which is different. That's when the start is unrealistically positive. And then you get a dose of reality. Okay. I'm thinking about goal displacement and identity derailment are two relevant terms that I think capture some of what you're going through. And there's actually a really interesting Corey Keyes paper on this. He coined the term languishing. And I think languishing is a lot of what happens after you had this tremendous sense of motivation and purpose and your whole life was organized around the project or the goals that you had for yourself or your kids.

59:42And then all of a sudden it's over and you're aimless and you're drifting and you don't have a sense of direction or meaning. And what Corey found is that even positive changes often elicit negative emotions because they destabilize our trajectory. And that's where the sense of displacement or derailment comes in. So I think those are possible terms for it. I think what to do about it. I've changed my view on this over time. I used to want to fix it. And now I think it's adaptive because without it, you would just dive headfirst into the next project. You would irrationally, prematurely commit to a bad movie or to a show that you do not want to be on for the next nine years just because you want something to fill the void.

1:00:32Yeah. And I think part of the reason that we feel a little down after we achieve something or after a milestone is it gives us better peripheral vision. It allows us to take a step back and say, but what do I really want to be doing next? As opposed to flinging ourselves head over heels into the wrong thing. And so ironically, maybe what I'm landing at is this letdown that you're feeling is what prevents you from committing to something that you want to quit later. Huh. What do you think? Nice way to circle it back. What do you think, Aliza? I just am so distracted by what a beautiful way to circle it back that was.

1:01:14Thank you. Thank you for having me. Well, Julie, thank you for opting into our experiment. This was an absolute breath of fresh air and unlike any podcast I've done before and also completely unlike what I expected it to me. Wow, you guys. Aliza, thank you for bringing us together. It was my pleasure.

1:01:34Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hailash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sungmanivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hansdale Sue and Alison Leighton Brown.

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