Rethinking your career identity with Oscar winner Ke Huy Quan

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1:17Requests handled. No extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. I thought nobody would recognize me in film school. Stupid me, like how naive of me to think that I can go to film school in Continental. And first day, I went to a sound class, and my sound teacher was talking about the brilliance of good sound design. And he was showing clips of Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Oh, no. And I was in that clip, and when it was over, the teacher said, you know, Star Wars was groundbreaking. Jaws was incredible.

1:56Temple of Doom, it didn't quite work. And the entire class broke out into laughter because they knew just sitting a few feet away is short round from Temple of Doom. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

2:25Ki Hui Kwan is an Academy Award-winning actor whose first experience with fame was when he was just 12 years old. That's when Ki played short round in the Spielberg blockbuster Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. He traveled to Sri Lanka for filming and around the world for the press tour. And then the roles started flowing in, including the character of Data in the iconic 80s film The Goonies. It was surreal. Just a few years earlier, in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, Key and his family had barely escaped Vietnam by sea, along with thousands of other people. I went from being cargo on a ship to traveling first class and going on this incredible adventure with some of the coolest people on the planet.

3:08But then his film career started to stall as Hollywood failed to create opportunities for people who looked like him. So in his 20s, Key quit acting and pivoted, waiting for what exactly he didn't know. Until something changed and he ended up playing Weyman Wong in the film for which he won his 2023 Oscar, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. Key just published a powerful memoir, Never Say Die, and I was so excited to dig into his story and his lessons about resilience and rethinking.

3:40Adam, hey! Oh my gosh, hi, Ki. What a warm welcome. Thank you for having me. This is really exciting. Well, it's not every day that I get to talk to Short Round, Data, and Weyman Wong all at once. And as somebody who spends basically my whole career studying how to rethink things, you are a poster child for it. You have so many great rethinking moments throughout your life, and I want to talk about a lot of them, but we have to begin with your origin story, because just the way that you got to the U.S. and became who you are is remarkable and almost unbelievable. So I would love for our audience just to get a little bit of a taste of that.

4:21Yes. I, you know, I was born in a family of nine. My parents had nine children and we were comfortable living in Vietnam. And all of a sudden, you know, this war came, created all this chaos, especially for the ethnically Chinese people that were living in Saigon at that time. You know, we were targeted because of the geopolitics between China and Vietnam. And so when North Vietnam won and took over, there were a lot of challenges for families like ours. And I could not imagine what my parents had to go through, the incredibly difficult decision that they had to make to get all of us out. And I remember I was only seven years old.

5:02I was asleep in the middle of the night when my dad woke me up, carried me, and took me to a waiting car in an alley. And I had no idea what was going on. I thought it was all a dream. And I was in this car. There was a stranger with us. And before I know it, we arrived at the beach and we were walking toward a fishing boat that was waiting for us. And when we got on and just as we were about to leave, we got caught. There were flashlights and police officers, you screaming, shouting, telling us to come back. And before I know it, I was in jail. And I was seven years old the first time I was in jail.

5:38Wow. And that was the first attempt out of Vietnam. We made a total of three. So I ended up going back to jail the second time. And the second time, I spent three months in jail. So it was quite an ordeal. Wow. And by the third time, it wasn't in secrecy anymore. It wasn't in hiding. It was all out in the open. You know, you pay to get a spot on the boat. And on that day, there were thousands of people leaving Saigon. It took hours and hours for us to embark. And by the time we did get on the boat, I realized that we were not passengers at all. We were cargo. So yeah, so that was the beginning of my journey.

6:19Wow. Do you ever feel like your life is a movie? You know, interestingly enough, I never thought of it that way until I started writing this book. And when I did, you know, I was faced with this challenge of, okay, you know, I've never written one before. I didn't know how to go about it. So I can only do it the way I knew how, which was through the lens of a movie. The only difference is the lead character is me. And I had to ask all these questions that you would ask if you were writing a script. What happened to this lead character? Why is he the way he is? What happened to him? Why does he feel this way?

6:56And because I wasn't raised to be introspective, I didn't have any of those answers. I had to find out myself going on this journey, writing this book. And I had to dig really deep and kind of revisit, you know, some of the wounds that I thought had healed, but they actually didn't. It was just buried for decades. And so it was an interesting journey because it was certainly a self-discovery for me, for myself as well. Well, that is a lot of what I want to talk about. I think not only were you the protagonist in this movie, you're also writer, director, producer, stunt coordinator. You're doing it all, right?

7:39So you made it to the U.S. And I understand, if I remember correctly, you weren't intending to audition to be on screen at all. You were there with your brother, is that right? Yeah, it was on a fateful Saturday morning while we were getting tutored because our English comprehension wasn't that great at the time. So we were getting tutored and we were just sitting outside on one of those lunch benches and we saw people going into the building and we had no idea what was going on. But my brother was really interested And we found out that they were, you know, having an open call and they were looking for a Chinese kid to be in a movie.

8:15And that was all the info that we have. And after our tutoring, my brother wanted to stay and go check out what was going on because he wanted to audition. So I tagged along. And when we walked into the hallway, it was just filled with, you know, Asian kids and their parents. And it was just me and my brother there. And we were given sides, a couple of pieces of paper. and the casting director told my brother to memorize the lines that were highlighted. So when it was his turn, he was doing well, but I felt like he was a bit nervous and the casting directors weren't seeing the potential that I saw in him.

8:53And I really wanted him to stand out. So it was out of my love for my brother. I got out of my chair and I got into his line site and started, you know, screaming directions at him in Cantonese. so the casting directors wouldn't understand. And he was asked to show different emotions such as like, you know, euphoria or anger or excitement, all of that. And I would just coach him from behind the casting directors. And when it was done, and I thought, you know, we were about to leave, the casting directors asked if I wanted to stay and read for them as well. And that's what happened. So, you know, and I said this quite often, And I always feel like I was just there at the right time, at the right place.

9:36And I felt extremely lucky to be chosen. Well, you went from very unlucky to very lucky in an unusually short period of time. And then all of a sudden, your life must have changed. I mean, you were in Indiana Jones, you were in Goonies. What was that like? You said it. I mean, it's such extreme for me, especially when I was just 12 years old. That was when I first got discovered. And what was amazing for me was, in a way, Short Round was going through the same thing that I went through. But, you know, he was braver. He, you know, he was more adventurous. You know, he was heroic. He saved Indy's ass.

10:17Whereas what I went through, it was traumatic. I was nervous. I was lost. I was confused. You know, I came out of it having really changed my life. in ways I couldn't understand then. But the short-round experience kind of took that experience and turned it and made it into a positive experience for me. And that was incredible. And I think because of that fond memory that I had, because of just the position between the two adventures that I had, really made me fell in love with this industry. It made me fell in love with acting. And I think, having written this book, I now understand. I now see the thread, who I used to be, and why I fell in love with this industry so passionately.

11:06This is one of the themes that just fascinates me as a psychologist, is, you know, I think to a lot of us, you're just playing a role. But it sounds like you actually took on some of Short Round's qualities, that as you have to show confidence and courage, you internalize it at some level. Did you become the role you were playing to some extent? You know, I don't think I had the wisdom or the maturity to draw the parallel. But what Short Round was going through being chased by bad guys, getting locked up, and when we jumped out of the plane and landed on a raft, it was very similar to my life just a few years ago.

11:43But now I see the parallel, and I think it definitely changed me. It reshaped that experience that I had from Vietnam, for sure. Wow. So you go from bad luck to good luck and then a big stroke of bad luck again. It's like the roller coaster ride. Yeah. What happened in the mid to late 80s? You know, I'll start here. When Temple of Doom came out and all of a sudden I was in the limelight and everywhere I go, people would recognize me. I was on a movie screen. I was on television. I was in newspapers and magazines. And I got travel all over the world promoting the movie. That was an amazing experience.

12:31And as a kid, I didn't know what to expect. Nobody prepared me for it. I just kind of existed in that environment. But before I got too comfortable, that limelight was gone. And then pretty soon, just a few years later, my career went south, just as I was coming of age. when I was 15, 16. So that was a really difficult period for me. I went from working all the time to now going back to school full time. And when I went to school, I didn't have any friends because I was never there to make any friends. And I felt really lonely. And it was compounded by the fact that Hollywood wasn't calling anymore.

13:12So it made it even worse. And so when I was 18 years old, when I graduated high school, and everybody was full of dreams, full of aspirations, full of excitement. I was the opposite. I was, again, lost and confused and disappointed and didn't really know where to go. And it was just really in a short span of just a few years going from, like you said, extreme good luck to now all of that was taken away from me. And I didn't know what to do. And back then, I didn't have the resources to look into, okay, what is going on? Why am I feeling so dejected? Why am I feeling so depressed? I was raised in a family where if something happens, I was taught to brush away my feelings and just keep your head up and keep moving.

14:02Life moves on. Don't dwell on the bad stuff. I didn't have the wisdom to fully understand what I was going through. And looking back, writing this book, I realized I actually spent a lot of time in solitude. And I got to say, I got quite comfortable spending time by myself. And I found it sometimes at that time, you know, it was like addictive because comfort, it was familiarity, being by myself rather than going out and not knowing how I would be perceived and all of that. So my early years was hard. Wow. I mean, yeah, it must have felt at some level like your future was in your past. Yeah. The thought that my best years were behind me was the scariest feeling that I had held on to for many years.

14:49It was this scary feeling that I hid for a long time. I never told anybody. And it was horrible. I mean, looking back to think, wow, like your best year was when you were 12 years old. How scary is that when you were turning 18 or 21? and that's when you were supposed to have this incredible bright future ahead of you. Whereas I thought it was just behind me already. I mean, that's just devastating. I'm curious about how you dealt with that. So you graduate high school. Did you get any feedback about why Hollywood wasn't calling, why acting roles weren't turning up? And how did you think through then what to do next?

15:31I mean, I was just told that there weren't any roles for me or people who looked like me. And there was no way for me to do anything but just to accept the fact that Hollywood no longer had a space for me. And I didn't know what to do. I was really confused. But I just thought the reason why I didn't give up was because I was still so young. And I thought I had all the time in the world. And as long as I stay in the game, as long as I'm patient and just wait, eventually something will come along and it will change things, turn things around. and I spent so long, a couple of decades, waiting for that turning point.

16:11And every time that one project would come, I would say, this is it. This is the turning point I'm looking for. And I would pour my heart and soul into that character, into that role, into that movie, hoping that it's going to become a success and that's when the job offers will keep coming in. But then that movie would bomb at the box office. And then I was so disappointed. And every single time that I thought that was the turning point, it wasn't. Now, during this period, you abandoned acting, right? You quit altogether. How long did you just walk away from acting for? First, it wasn't an easy decision.

16:52I was lost for so many years. And this was, you know, from 18 to 25. So in a span of more than seven years, actually, that I sat by the phone and waiting for it to ring. And all I knew was something needed to be changed. But I didn't want to leave this industry altogether. And the only thing that made sense was to go to school, go to college. At that time, I didn't know anything about movie making. The only thing that I knew was what was in front of the camera. And I thought that if I expand my knowledge and fully understand what this industry is about, how to make movies, how movies are put together, maybe that would change my luck, my career.

17:39So I first enrolled in a city college because, you know, going to film school is expensive. I took as many classes as I could. I went to summer school to try to really shorten that time span and then apply for USC film school. And thank God they accepted me. And I loved every minute of it. Those two years at film school really helped me a lot. It made me find the belonging that I've been searching for in a long time. I just, I mean, there's so many things that are striking about that story. First of all, for you to rethink your identity, to say, I'm not just an actor. I love movies, right? There's a broadening there that gives you flexibility.

18:17And secondly, then to say, okay, there's a whole community of people like me. It sounds like they didn't all look like you, but they shared your interests and your passion. Yeah. And also because I started so late. I was 27 when I went to film school. And classmates, they were 18, 19, 20. They were really young. And everyone was from different backgrounds. But the comment there that we all shared was our passion for the movie. So I didn't feel different. I felt like I belonged. And that was a great feeling to have after years of trying to find my own worth. Yeah. And it's such an unexpected turn then for you to say, okay, acting not working right now.

19:01I'm going to become a stunt coordinator. How did that happen? When I graduated from film school, I got a call from a really famous action director named Koi Yuan, who has done some incredible work in Hong Kong, but he was now working in Hollywood. But we met years earlier on a project that didn't pan out, but we kind of kept in touch. And when he found out that I went to film school, he called me and says, hey, you know, I just got offered this little movie in Toronto. Would you come work for me? And this was like right out of school. So I was so excited. I packed my bag, got on a flight. And when I got there, it wasn't a little movie that I thought.

19:39It was The X-Men. And I was so excited. And that's where I met, you know, a young Kevin Feige, who was just an associate producer at that time. And only a few years later, he would start this incredible career as the head of MCU. And how full circle that was because I met him many years later and offered me Loki. And I met a young Hugh Jackman. So it was a great time for me because it was my first job behind the camera and also my own experience in martial arts. Because I have a black belt in Taekwondo and I was able to utilize everything I learned up until that point. And also I was learning this brand new language of, oh, how to design an action sequence, how to shoot it, how to edit it.

20:24So it made me think outside the box. I'm no longer thinking from an actor's perspective, but from the perspective of someone behind the camera. So then, you know, my horizon widened. I'm no longer seen within just the frame of the camera. And then you were behind the camera basically for the next decade and a half, right? Yeah. Did you give up on acting during that time? Did you say, okay, that part of my life is over? Or were you still hoping in the back of your mind that one day you'd be in front of the camera again? When I decided to go to film school, I think that was when I convinced myself that I no longer want to be an actor.

21:08I don't think that was true, but I was able to convince myself that my acting career is behind me now. I need to focus on what's ahead. So when I started working behind the camera, I was content. I was totally fine. But every once in a while, when I see an actor does something incredible in front of the screen, I couldn't help myself but to think, oh, if it was me, how would I do it? and then I would go back home and say the lines the way I would say it. And it's in those quiet moments that the actor in me wants to crawl back to the surface. But then before it does, I push it back down. I buried it again.

21:59And that happened over the course of, yeah, two decades. Wow. That's such an interesting way to capture the dynamic that, on the one hand, you're pushing the dream aside. But on the other hand, the identity doesn't want to go away. It keeps popping up and saying, hey, wait a minute, don't forget about me. There was a project that I did in Hong Kong. And in Hong Kong, when you work in Hong Kong, especially when you work on an action team, you wear many different hats. You help design action sequences, you do stunts and all that. But one of the things that is required of you is to be on camera. If they need stunt guys or bodies on the ground or somebody to be in the background, that's required of you.

22:44And there was this one movie that I did, and I was on the stunt team, and there was not enough bodies for this wide shot. And the director, you know, Goy Yun was so protective. He was so nice. He knew my background, and he didn't want me to do that. So he kept telling the director, that's all we have. That's all we have. And I was standing, like, behind him. and the director said hey wait a minute what about this guy can't he put on a costume and lay on the ground too and once when he said that I knew I had no choice but to do it and the villains in that movie had these like face paint on the face so I went to the makeup person I said can you make mine bigger can you cover my face more because I was afraid that the audience would recognize me So I was in makeup.

23:30I put on this costume, and they wet the floor just so it would look better. It was a night shot. And there was this pool of water that I was ordered to lay down on. My costume was completely wet. And in that moment, it made me realize, wow, I was no longer the actor I used to be. And I needed to believe in that. Otherwise, I couldn't have done that. And every time I try to move, the further away I try to move from my acting career, there's that string that keeps on pulling me back. I always feel that pull. So interesting. This actually relates to some research I did years ago. So Justin Berg, Victoria Johnson, and I were interested in the question of what happens when somebody has an unanswered calling for a kind of work they're passionate about that they find meaningful.

24:25but for usually practical reasons, they don't get to pursue. And we found that oftentimes people coped with that feeling by crafting their jobs, tinkering with what they did every day to incorporate a little bit of it into their work. So a teacher who missed a calling to be a musician would bring a guitar into class and play a song and sing for students, as an example. And it seems like you were doing a version of this. You found a way to stay close to movies. You're getting these little tastes of acting. And on the one hand, that's a way to express your calling. On the other hand, we found that, ironically, that often made people feel more regret and more disappointment because this career that they could have had, that they wish they had, was sort of smacking them in the face every once in a while.

25:13What was that like for you? You know, I think all those years, the one consistent thing, Every time in those quiet moments, and I'm like thinking, especially when my career behind the camera wasn't going anywhere. There was one question that I kept asking myself was, you know, am I taking the easy route? Am I just letting time carry me forward instead of chasing what I'm passionate about? Yeah, you know, I earned enough to pay the bills, but that was it. There was really, you know, I wasn't really excited about waking up the next morning. And it's those times, and Spielberg talked about this, it's that whisper that keeps on coming back.

26:02And it was during those quiet, sleepless nights where I'm just staring at the ceiling. And then I begin to hear it. And I would just ignore it. I would just ignore it in the beginning. You know, this is absurd. I mean, those days are long gone. And those, I mean, try to tell myself, Key, don't go down that route because it won't end well for you. And I'll push back. And then, sure enough, a few weeks later, a month later, that whisper comes back again. And every time it comes back, it just gets louder and louder until one day I could not ignore it. And what really changed, what really made me confronted was when I went to see Crazy Rich Asians.

26:41It was a movie that I didn't think Hollywood would ever make. I didn't think people who look like me would be at the center of a story because I was so conditioned to think all I'm good for is just marginal. We're only good as sidekicks, not the main character of the movie. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Oh, there are so many things that I love about this story. First of all, the question of am I just taking the path of least resistance? Powerful. It's profound. I think it's something we should all ask because it is easy to coast along once you find a niche and it seems like you were comfortable enough and you didn't have to try anything different.

27:22Yeah, and I would meet people that are older in their 60s or 70s and we would sit down and talk. And what really scared me was hearing their own stories about how, oh, when they were younger, they didn't have the guts to try this or they didn't have the courage to go after what they want. And so they ended up taking a job that just paid enough to cover all the expenses. And I just see the regret in their eyes. And at that time, it was too late for them. You know, they were already at the end of their career. And when I saw that and when I heard those stories, it really scared me because I kind of saw myself in their shoes.

28:04I kind of saw myself telling that story. many years later. So when I saw myself clearly go, wow, I don't want to be in my 70s. And people ask me, what happened? Why? Like, didn't you ever want to give it another choice? It was all of those fear that was front and center by the time I decided to be an actor again. And like I said, Crazy Rich Asians, had that movie failed? Had that movie failed, I don't think I would have had the courage to step in front of the camera again but it was almost like a sign for me it was almost like the universe telling me now is the time because it became a phenomenon and my wife Echo always said this I would ask her like why do you believe in me like why do you think I can achieve the impossible she believed in me so much.

29:02And she's a spiritual person. And she always believes in karma. And she sees the good aura that I spread around, the goodness that I exhibit every day. And it's his key. That goodness will one day come around for you. And sure enough, how odd is it when I decided to be an actor again, it was only two weeks later that I got the call for everything, everyone at once. So again, my wife was right all along. Echo definitely nailed it. I think, you know, in the language of everything, everywhere, all at once, you did a reverse jump. You jumped back into a former self. Yeah, that's really good. It's so fun to see life imitate art in that way.

29:46And, you know, I think it seems like you did return to a former version of yourself. But now you are armed with a whole bunch of new tools. Your action film work, your work on X-Men, the stunt coordinating you did. As far as I'm concerned, when I watch Everything Everywhere all at once, I think the fanny pack fight scene is one of the greatest fight scenes in film history. And it's hard to imagine that scene existing had you not done the pivot and the side quest. And I'd love to hear you talk about that. All the hardship that I went through, my entire journey, allowed me to play this one character that has three different versions of him.

30:26The way I see it is, you know, the alpha Wayman was the easiest one for me to play because all my life I felt this responsibility to take care of the people around me. So I understand his mentality and I understand his physicality because I have that martial arts background. So that was an easy one. The most difficult character for me to play was Tax Wayman, the mild-mannered husband of Michelle Yeoh's character. and it's because he wears his emotions on his sleeve. He's not afraid to be vulnerable. And my entire life leading up to that, before that, I was told to be a man. I was never raised in an environment where I was encouraged to share my feelings or to be introspective or any of that.

31:18And for years, I've never shared my feelings with anyone. Even some of the really difficult stuff, I didn't even share with my wife, Echo. So that was the most difficult character for me to play. And I understood that in order for me to play him, I really have to open up. And that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Your memoir is the next step in that journey, obviously, if that was hard. The memoir was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my career-wise. And when I sat down to write this memoir, I realized that if I'm going to do this, I would have to be brutally honest with myself.

31:53And that's the only way to do it. And I didn't know how hard that journey was going to be until I sat down and write the first chapter.

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34:24What was the discovery that surprised you the most? That I didn't really know myself. I didn't really know myself before. Also, it changed the way I see things. And the biggest thing that changed was how I view my early years as a refugee. Did you know the term fresh off the boat was coined to describe people like me and my family? And we were constantly reminded that we were not good enough. We were inferior. We were insufficient. And I think that's why I kind of developed this need to feel seen, to feel like I belong. and also I constantly overcompensate and work extra hard just to prove that I'm worthy.

35:11Now, I didn't understand any of that before I wrote this book. And having gone on this journey, it made me look at my early years through a different lens. And I'll tell you this incredible story. Right after the Oscars, I received an invitation from Cate Blanchett to attend an event in Geneva, Switzerland. It was for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. And after that event, I was asked if I was interested to visit the archives. And I said yes right away. And when I went in, they led me to the back of the room where there was a table, there were documents there, there was a microfiche reader.

35:53and in those documents I was able to see the memos and the faxes, the correspondence between UNHCR and the Hong Kong government, urging the Hong Kong government to allow all the passengers on Huifang, which was the boat that I was on, over 3 ,300 passengers on that boat. We arrived on the shore of Hong Kong but were not allowed to come on board and the most important thing that I came upon was the passenger log and it had every single names of our family, my father, all my siblings, and myself. And it was in that moment that I realized what it took for us to be here to have this chance at all.

36:38And now I look back and I understand the efforts and the journey that we went on was nothing short of miraculous. We made it. We survived. It was unbelievable. You know, hundreds of thousands of people were trying to flee Vietnam at that time, and almost half of those people never made it and ended up at the bottom of the South China Sea. We were the lucky ones. So writing this book, it made me realize that, wow, what a journey we had, and I should be proud of it. I should be proud of the sacrifice that my parents made. and now that stigma, that shame is no longer there and I wear that label proudly.

37:23Yes, I tell people, yes, I used to be a refugee. So that discovery was unbelievable and that was one of the big joy that I got out of writing this book. Oh, Keith, that's just, that's beautiful. I got chills listening to you tell that story. Thank you. What a beautiful way to rethink and reframe the stigma as a source of pride. And, you know, it relates to something that I was thinking about coming into this conversation, which is we have an amazing PhD student, Stephanie, who's a huge fan of your work. And I was talking to her about what I should ask you. And she pointed out that the arc of your story, depending on where you stop it, could look very different.

38:06You could basically tell the story from the experience of being in jail and then trying to get on the boat and finally making it here. And then this incredible rise. Or you could tell it from the incredible rise to the fall and to being lost and confused. Or you could tell it with the full arc that we have now to present, where you actually get that upswing of redemption. And I have a question, I think, that comes out of that observation, which is there's some research by a psychologist, Dan McAdams, who looks at the shape of people's life stories. And he finds that when people have what he calls a contamination narrative, where things were good and then they weren't, like happened to you as a teenager and in your 20s, they often do end up less satisfied with their lives, feeling depression, feeling regret.

39:00And what works much better is to find the redemption arc. And in fact, having sort of gone down and then up again seems to predict more happiness than just having a pleasant, easy life. What's striking to me is that when you talk about sort of where you came from, I think it would be easy to naively assume, well, you've been in jail. You've been, you know, fighting for your life to get to America. You know, not finding work as an actor, no problem. Right. That should be easy. But having known what success feels like and then having fallen after rising, that almost makes it worse. And I just love to hear you reflect on that a little bit, the shape of what feels like contamination and then redemption and what that was like and how you see it now.

39:50Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. I love this question. And I love the way it is framed because it's absolutely true. If you look at my story, it depends on where you end it. And where you end, you can end tragically or you can have a happy ending. For example, you said it beautifully. But yeah, you know, a lot of times I think for people who don't know me, I think it's fair to say they kind of think of me as that guy jumping up and down at award shows with this incredibly joyful energy. And for people who do know some of my story, they understand, but they don't have the full picture. And that's why I wanted to write this book.

40:33I wanted people to know where that joy came from. And it came from many different places. You know, the reason why I'm so joyful and I always approach things with such a huge sense of gratitude is because of the hardship that I went through. It's not easy to get here. And I think you can help me with this, too. I've been able to have a little time to reflect after I finish this book. And I realized that I associate fame with work. meaning that if I'm famous, I'll keep working. And if I keep working, I'll be famous. And the most offer I got was right after when EAL came out when I won the Oscar.

41:21I have never had more filmmakers and producers reaching out wanting to meet, wanting to offer me a job, wanting to develop stuff with me in mind. And it was an incredible feeling. and I understand that is not healthy to associate work with fame. You know, I understand that I'm still a work in progress and I recognize that and I try not to do that, but I can't help it. You know, everything that's happened in my life, like, what do you think about that, Adam? Oh, you've come to the right office hours. This is a great question for an organizational psychologist. I don't know if I can help you or anyone with this key, but I'll give you my perspective on it.

42:05which is I think that you actually learned something early on that's true, but maybe I would frame it a little differently, which is visibility creates opportunity. You don't have to be famous, but if you're known in your field, that means people think of you more often. You're top of mind, right? They're more likely to imagine a role for you. And so I don't think that association was wrong. I think though that it's limited because it's only one path. I think that recognition is kind of a shortcut to opportunity, but relationships are what convert the opportunity into a job, into a role, into a career.

42:44And I think if I were talking with 18-year-old Key, one of the first things I would say is, okay, your star is not as prominent as it was six years ago. But you know Steven Spielberg. You know George Lucas. You know Harrison Ford. Those relationships matter. Those people respect your acting skills. They admire your work ethic. They feel a connection to you because you're part of their success. And in those moments when the recognition isn't there, what are the relationships that you can rely on that will open doors for you that will give you a chance. What do you make of that? No, it's true. But I also, I'm one of those people where like, the last thing I want to do is to bother people.

43:31You know, if I need help, the last thing I want to do is to go and bother somebody about it. But you're right, relationships matter. And I have some really cool and wonderful relationship. And I treasure them. And also, I'm very grateful for the people who have made a big difference in my life. And because they've already done so much, I'll give you an example. Steven Spielberg, who gave me not one, but two incredible opportunities. When I decided to go to film school, my friends and family says, you need to call Steven. You need to ask him to write that letter of recommendation for you. And I go, come on, no, I don't want to bother him.

44:10The last thing he wants to hear is me asking him for more stuff. And I didn't ask him. And what was so amazing was that after I graduated from USC, I went to visit Steven on a movie set. He was shooting Minority Report at that time. And I was shooting on the same lot, just a few sound stages further down. And when I found out he was there during my lunch break, I went to visit him. and this was maybe after gosh like 10, 15 years I haven't seen him the last time he saw me I was a little kid and I was so nervous that he wouldn't recognize me and the minute he saw me he stood up opened his arms, gave me a big hug and asked me, Key, what are you doing?

44:55How are you? And I said, I'm doing great. I just graduated from college and now I'm working behind the camera and he says I know. And I said how do you know I graduated from college? He said, well, when you apply for film school, they asked me if I should let you in. And I said, yes.

45:13So he was there as a reference and you didn't have to ask. He was there the whole time. He was always looking out for me and I cannot be more appreciative. And that's why, like, how can I go and ask him for more stuff when this man's already done so much? So that's how I feel when I'm like asking people for help. All right. I'm going to I'm going to challenge you a little bit on this one. because I have spent a lot of my career studying this very dynamic and dilemma. And I think you're doing yourself a disservice. So I understand you're a giver. You don't want to be a taker. But it's so interesting that you frame it to me as bothering people.

45:51And you say, I don't want to bother people. Let me ask you something. When somebody comes to you and says, Ki, I would love your advice. Or would you be willing to make an introduction for me? How do you feel? I feel good because I can help people. And if people ask me for help, I feel worthy. Don't you think everyone wants to feel that? Yes. So how could you deprive other people of that feeling by not asking them for help and advice? That's so good, Adam. Don't be an asshole. So selfish, right? Selfish. What an asshole. Adam, that is so great. That is so great. No, look, not everyone is going to feel it all the time, right?

46:33There are times when it is a bother or it is a burden because you ask the wrong person for the wrong thing at the wrong time. But knowing what kind of person you are and knowing that you exude kindness, you don't just give speeches on it, you have built so much goodwill with the people in your life. You're clearly beloved and adored. And there's nothing that people enjoy more than helping somebody that they feel so good about. And so I do think that you are failing to give them the joy of being givers too by never asking. That's wonderful. Again, like I said, I'm definitely a work in progress.

47:14And I think I'm learning. It's interesting. I'm 55 years old. And I'm still learning to give myself permission to be happy, to feel worthy, to feel. So, you know, one of the things that I learned from my wife, Echo, writing this book is that one of the many reasons why I'm so in love with her is that she makes me feel like just being myself, I'm enough. She never think I was insufficient when I wasn't working. But, you know, I'm growing and that's what I love. But I love what you just said, Adam. And I will remember that the next time I need something from somebody. Take it to heart. I think. Yeah.

47:59Yeah. I mean, I think it's always easier to ask for advice than help. You know, help requires the other person to do something. Advice is just a conversation. Who wouldn't be happy to have a chat with you? I mean, you're just so charming and you bring so much joy into other people's lives. I can't imagine anyone feeling anything but delighted to hear from you. So tell me if I'm wrong. But I wanted to ask you related to this. You know, everybody talks about how kind you are, and it's just, it's in your DNA. It's so clear. I know Hollywood can be pretty cutthroat. What are your reflections on maintaining your kindness and your humility in an industry that often seems to reward people who are selfish and arrogant and brash?

48:45I love this question. And it's not just in our industry. I always approach people with kindness first. I always try to be polite. I always try to be kind. and sometimes it's not appreciated, you know. I can't allow myself to be in any other way because I would just hate myself. You know, whether Hollywood awards people who are assholes, that's them. I don't want to be that. I just want to be who I am. I just want to treat people the way I want to be treated. and like my wife said, I believe in karma and if you spread goodness, goodness will come around. That's how I think. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn.

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50:05In fact, LinkedIn found that its users are 24 % less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at www.linkedin.com slash adamgrant. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode of Rethinking with Adam Grant is brought to you by Olympic Hospitality. The Olympic Games are coming to Los Angeles in 2028. This is a once-in-a-generation event that you will not want to miss. It's more than a ticket. It's a story you share with your family and friends. And the ultimate way to get closer to the action is with an Olympic Hospitality package.

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51:46Okay, you ready for a lightning round? Oh, well, they're at lightning round already. Wow, this went by fast. Okay, yes. Yeah, I have some rapid fire questions whenever you're ready. First of all, what do you think is the worst career advice you've ever gotten? Do it for the money. Best advice? The best advice is don't be afraid to say no. And that's very hard for me, but I'm learning. Recovering people pleasers unite. Yes, I'm a people pleaser, but I think that's great advice. Yep, I think so too. You get to invite a group of your favorite people in Hollywood to dinner, alive or dead. Who are you inviting?

52:24I got to tell you, I love great filmmakers. I love it when I get to work with someone who is really smart, have a clear vision. So if I were to have a dinner, I would love to invite Christopher Nolan, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, James Cameron, one of my favorite, Akira Kurosawa, who's no longer here, but as you said, dead or alive. Of course, I would not be here even talking to you if it went for the Daniels, so I got to invite them. I would put them all around the table. I would put myself right in the center, but I would not speak. I will not talk. I just want to be a fly on the wall and just hear them talk about movies.

53:10That sounds like so much fun. Yeah. I'm so grateful, Key, that you joined us today and that you were willing to rethink your path so many times. I think it's an inspiration to all of us. And I think you role model the kind of resilience that we're all struggling to build at the moment. So I think that's so important. And this has been such a joy for me. Adam, I love this chat. You know, I never went to therapy. I didn't know that this is the therapy that I needed. It's great. So I really had fun chatting with you, Adam. Thank you. Same. I'm not even that kind of psychologist, but I...

53:49Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hailash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Leighton Brown.

54:19I'm quite nervous today, and the reason is because this is the first interview that I'm talking about the book. I'm nervous too. It's not every day that I get to talk to Short Round, Data, and Weyman Wong all at once.

54:36This episode is brought to you by the National Education Association. A new school year always feels like a fresh start. New teachers, new classmates, new opportunities. As students head back to the classroom, parents and teachers are teaming up with the same goal, to have a safe and supportive school year. Every child deserves a bright future and together parents and teachers can make it happen. Help your family get back to school ready at nea.org slash backtoschool. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds.

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56:38This episode is sponsored by Toyota. A lot of us have this instinct to explore, to get out of our routines, to try something new, to maybe go somewhere we haven't been before. But the ability to do that, it depends on having the right tools. Toyota's new all-electric family is built with that in mind. vehicles like the BZ Woodland are designed for movement and possibility with dual motors, all-wheel drive, and the kind of capability that makes it easier to take the long way home or leave town entirely. Because sometimes escape isn't about going far, it's just about knowing you can. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all-electric family.

57:14Toyota, let's go places.