Talking people out of hate with Daryl Davis and former neo-Nazi Jeff Schoep

0:00As kids, we all are taught a tiger does not change his stripes. A leopard does not change its spots. So why would anybody think a Nazi would change his swastika or a Klansman would change his robe and hood? Yes, a tiger and leopard cannot change their stripes and spots because they were born with those immutable characteristics. That's who they are. But the Klansman or Nazi is not born with that robe and hood or that swastika. That is acquired. That is learned behavior. And what can be learned can be unlearned. Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick.

0:40I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

0:52The KKK is one of the tightest knit tribes in America. Once people join the white supremacist group, they're usually members for life. But in the 1980s, they began losing members. Since then, more than 200 people have renounced their affiliation, who all give credit to the same man, a black jazz musician named Daryl Davis. For me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I want to see how these people think. So rather than get furious, I got curious. I wrote about Daryl in my book, Think Again. He's a master of talking people out of hate. And he has a closet full of KKK robes and hoods from former members to prove it.

1:32Daryl's most recent book is called The Clan Whisperer, and he's also a co-founder of the ProHuman Foundation. It's become his life's work to show how people can change their deeply held beliefs about others, even those they profess to hate. Like Jeff Scoop. Jeff spent more than 20 years leading and growing the largest neo-Nazi group in America. After he met Daryl, he started questioning his ideology. The following year, Jeff helped organize the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, and then abandoned the movement. He was adrift until he got a call from Daryl, who helped change the trajectory of his life.

2:08When Daryl called me after I had left the movement, I was at rock bottom. His phone call was so uplifting for me. I was just filled with emotion at that moment because I had almost nobody that were not in the movement. So it's really important to leave that door open, be that support system, be there for those people. That doesn't signify that you agree with them, but leave that door open for love because that can change the world. For this conversation, I wasn't interested in rehabilitating Jeff's image or downplaying the violence and discrimination that people of color have faced in this country since its inception.

2:43To put it plainly, I wanted to explore the ways in which people's minds can change, even from the deepest depths of hate. And I wanted to find out how those same people can begin to grow and begin to make a positive impact in the world.

2:59Okay, Daryl, I think that when I first became aware of you, my understanding was that there was sort of a growing swell of former white supremacists leaving the Ku Klux Klan. One man, one musician, had managed to talk several hundred people out of hate. How did you end up getting into that? Okay. So I'm age 67 currently. And I grew up as a child of parents in the U.S. Foreign Service. So I was an American embassy kid. You get assigned to a foreign country for two years. At the end of that two-year assignment, you come back home to the States. You're debriefed. And then you go back overseas again a few months later, perhaps a year later, to another foreign country for two years.

3:48So back and forth, back and forth were the formative years of my life. and my first introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. When I was in school abroad, all my classmates were from all over the world because anybody who had an embassy stationed where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this desk next to me might have been from Czechoslovakia, This kid from Japan, that kid from Italy, that kid in front of me from Nigeria.

4:23So to me, that was the norm for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come back home here to my own country, I would be either in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And even though desegregation was passed four years before I was born, schools did not integrate overnight. Right. So one of those times that I came back, I was age 10. 1968. I was in fourth grade, and I was one of two black kids in the entire school. There was a girl in second grade and me in the fourth grade. So consequently, all of my friends were white.

5:00They were fourth and fifth graders. And several of my male friends were members of the Cub Scouts, and they invited me to join, which I did. I was the only black scout anywhere in the area. This was in Massachusetts. And we had a parade along with several other organizations. The sidewalks were lined with nothing but white people waving and cheering as we're marching down the streets. Until we got to a certain point, I began getting hit with our bottles and soda pop cans and small rocks from just a small group of spectators off to my right. I turned to look to see what was hitting me, and I saw about four or five people, I remember, a couple of kids who I did not know and a couple of adults who I assume were their parents.

5:40They were throwing things, and my first thought was, oh, these people over here, they don't like the scouts. That's how naive I was, because I had no precedent for that behavior. You know, that's all I could think of. It wasn't until my Cub Scout leaders came running, and they're all white, and they covered me with their bodies and quickly escorted me out of this danger that I realized that none of my fellow scouts were getting the special protection. So obviously, I had done something to incur their ire, you know, And I kept saying, what did I do? I didn't do anything. Why are they doing this?

6:14And all they would do is kind of shush me and rush me along, tell me to keep moving, keep moving. Everything will be okay. I kept moving, but they never answered my question. And at the end of the march, when I returned home, my mother and father were at home. They weren't at the march. And they were cleaning me up, putting Band-Aids on me, and asking, how did you fall down and get all scraped up? I told them I didn't fall down. I told them exactly what had happened. And for the first time in my life, at the age of 10, my mother and father sat me down and explained to me what racism was. At age 10, believe it or not, I had never even heard the word racism.

6:55I had no clue what they were talking about because that word and that behavior, again, was not in my world. I was around people from all over the world. So that's what I'm saying is that, you know, unless you have that kind of exposure and experience, you don't think about those kinds of things. And now I'm being forced to think about it because it's in my face. And my parents are telling me this. And I didn't believe my parents. I didn't believe them that because my 10-year-old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me, never spoken to me, knew nothing of me, would want to hurt me for no other reason than the color of my skin.

7:34That made absolutely no sense. And to prove to them that they were wrong and I was right, I pointed out the fact that my friends, my fellow scouts, my schoolmates, my friends overseas, whether they're my little Danish or Swedish or Norwegian or French friends, did not look any different than those people over there on the sidewalk. Same color. So color had nothing to do with the reason why they were targeting me. I still didn't know the reason. And, you know, we went back and forth. Well, I didn't believe them. This is 1968. Martin Luther King was assassinated. I remember it very well. Every major city in this country burned with violence and destruction all in the name of this new word I had learned called racism.

8:20So now I accepted the fact that my parents had not lied. This phenomenon does exist. But I didn't know why. And that's when I formed that question in my mind. How can you hate me? We don't even know me. And for the next 57 years, because I was 10, then 67 now, I've been looking for the answer to that question. So when I, you know, I have a vast library, Adam, tons of books on black supremacy, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, the neo-Nazis, anti-Semitism, racism, you name it. I've read them all. They all talk about it, but they don't tell me why. And when I would ask people, they would say, oh, Daryl, you know, some people are just like that.

8:58That's just the way it is. Well, that's not an answer for me. And so who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization with over a hundred year history of practicing hating people who don't look like them? Daryl, please. Yes, sir. I'm just mystified by one aspect of this. Who worse to ask that question of? I cannot. Who in their right mind goes up to someone who said I was in my right mind? Fair, fair. Let me ask that one differently. I mean, who has the audacity, the courage to approach someone who thinks that they don't deserve to exist and want to learn from them?

9:44Excellent question. All right. It goes back to my experience. My dad's job with the U.S. government was to go to a foreign country and improve relations between the foreign country's government and the U.S. government. That's what a diplomat does. Right. So now I wasn't a diplomat. I was a child of diplomats. I was around diplomacy all growing up. I just absorbed it. So for me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I want to see how these people think. If I had grown up here in my own country and not gone abroad and been exposed to those things, would I be doing this work today? Maybe not.

10:26Maybe I'd be staying as far away from those people. It'd be us versus them kind of thing as I could. You stay on your side of the tracks. I'll stay on my side of the tracks and we'll just go parallel, you know, not interact. You know, people ask me, well, how come your parents didn't warn you about this? Certainly, you know, they knew about racism. Yes, of course my parents knew about racism. My parents were from Roanoke in Salem, Virginia, the seat of the Confederacy. They weren't allowed to drink from certain water fountains or use certain restrooms, and they had to ride in the back of the bus, right?

10:54So, you know, I'm glad they didn't tell me about it. And I'll tell you why. Suppose my parents had told me about racism before I had that incident with the bottle and rock throwing. Would I be wary of every white person I saw? I wonder if that's a white person that my parents were telling me about, if he's going to act like that. Maybe I'd be a little leery. But as a result of not knowing and finding out that way, I became curious. Why is that person like that? But this white person is not like that. You know? So I'm glad it worked out that way. Yeah, I am too. Because otherwise, we wouldn't have you setting an example that the whole world needs to learn from.

11:39So, Daryl, how did you get to know Jeff? You must have known who he was before, since he'd been an influential neo-Nazi leader for a long time. How did you get to know him? I've known Jeff personally since about 2016, but I knew of him 20 years prior. I was watching a TV talk show. I think it was Rolanda. And he was just a teenager back then, I believe. I'm like, you know, what are these guys talking about? What is wrong with these people? I want you to meet 22-year-old Jeff. He's a leader of a group called the National Socialist Movement. I have to admit, I look at you, you're so young. it breaks my heart to think that you might be filled with so much hatred.

12:21How'd you get involved in a group like this? Well, let me tell you, it's not hatred. It's love for our own people, love for our own race. We need a white homeland. And no matter what happens, we're going to have that white homeland, any means necessary. And I never dreamed that I would be meeting him, but I did. And today he is my brother. We work hand in hand all around the country, sometimes separately, sometimes together, as we are right now. Wow. Wow. Jeff, it's just, it's hard to even imagine somebody traveling the distance that you have traveled. So I know you were involved with some pretty hateful groups.

12:57How old were you when that began? I came from a family connection. My grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war. My great uncles fought as well. And one of my uncles was captured at Stalingrad. And my grandfather was in a POW camp and my other great uncle was wounded in the Ardennes. It was that historical and family connection. But I have to say that with the caveat that it wasn't my family that propagandized me or got me into this. In fact, they actively tried to discourage that. I sought out the movement on my own and joined up at about 18. Wow. I mean, it's just so hard for me to imagine.

13:33Didn't you grow up understanding that Nazis were evil? Well, I mean, they are. That's that's the truth. But the thing is, I was looking at it through a different lens. I was of the mindset that the victors wrote the history and that my people could never do something like the Holocaust or anything like that. So I became a Holocaust revisionist and I didn't believe in that narrative. I didn't believe the true facts and I believed the set of so-called facts that fit my narrative. So it's pretty dark. Take us to 2016. What were your views when you met Daryl? so in 2016 i was the head of the national social movement which was at the time was the largest neo-nazi organization in the country and um i had gotten contacted by a filmmaker and they said hey would you come and participate in this film and i would participate in all the films that i could participate in because it was a chance to to spread the propaganda of the movement you know i didn't know that i was meeting with daryl davis i knew who daryl davis was because he was getting people out of these movements he's pulling people out of these groups so we knew who he was he's the enemy, right?

14:37The producer didn't tell me, they didn't say Daryl Davis, or if they did, I didn't, it didn't register for me. So we come into the restaurant, we sit down, we're getting along, and we start talking about music. I was a singer in a long-haired rock and roll band in my early years. And then it clicked in my head, hey, you're the commander of the National Socialist Movement, and you're getting along with this guy too well. And it clicked right at that moment. I know who this guy is. He's somebody that gets people out of these groups. So I'm thinking this isn't going to look good on film. So I pound my fist on the table and I said, you know what, Daryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people.

15:14And you would think in a normal scenario like that, the other side, when you try to escalate, they escalate back. Daryl doesn't escalate. He just goes and just continues the conversation. Like I didn't raise my voice, Like I didn't get aggressive or anything. We were getting along too well. I mean, we were laughing and joking about different things. And then all of a sudden, just like you said, out of the blue, he pounded his fists on the table and said, I will fight to the last bullet for my people. I'm like, OK. So I just continue talking to him, you know. And now I'm just like, what is up with this guy?

15:48Why is he not reacting? What is going on here? This is something strange is happening here. So now I'm really tuned in. I'm trying to figure him out. And Daryl says to me, he says, can I tell you why I do the work that I do? And of course, conversations are reciprocal and he was respectful to me. So I'm being respectful to him, despite our ideological differences. And Daryl shared with me about how hate racism affected him growing up when he's in the Boy Scouts and how he was targeted by white adults and they were throwing rocks at him. And it didn't sit right for me. Like it, it bothered me. like if this ideology that I stand for is causing that kind of pain to somebody like how is that how is that noble how is this this grand cause that I that I think it is how is that true and Darryl says you know how could someone hate me when they don't even know me and that hit like like a ton of bricks and I'd like to say right at that moment everything changed my whole life changed it did on the inside but it took time it took time because I'd been involved in this stuff for a lifetime.

16:55It was 27 years total. This is unbelievable. And when we finished the interview, the camera people were wrapping up and I pulled Jeff aside and just talked to him one-on-one, you know, man-to-man and just shared a few things with him. And that was it. And then he gave me his phone number and I gave him mine. And then the next year, Charlottesville happened with the white supremacist rally there. and Jeff had participated in the rally. And I guess a while after that, it may have been that year, he kind of went under the radar. And then a little while later, I had heard that he had left the movement.

17:36And so I reached out to him. I called him on the phone. And we talked for a good, I don't know, half an hour, 40 minutes. And I said, you know, we got to figure out, you know, what we can do together. He said, well, let me know. I'm game. You know, I really appreciate, you know, you're calling me. and I really respected you back then at Chris's hot dog grill. You know, you took me aside, talked to me man to man. He bonded with me on the phone. It's incredible. Okay, Daryl, you go into these conversations with white supremacists, initially to learn from them, having no idea that your curiosity is going to be a catalyst for them changing their views and, you know, in many cases, abandoning their hate.

18:16Let's start with the question, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Jeff, for you, it was a life-changing question. Why did that question get through to you when other efforts hadn't? You know, my family and everybody had tried to read me for years and years and years, and I wasn't hearing it. When you're entrenched in it, you think you're doing this noble thing. So when someone tells you you're wrong, you're hateful, you're off, you automatically push back. It's just human nature. That's what we do. That's what most all of us do. Daryl didn't do that. And see, when he shared that deeply personal story, that was a humanistic connection.

18:53He showed me his humanity at that point. And when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I had been chief dehumanizer for many, many, many years. So when Daryl showed me his humanity, it cracked open like this window or cracked open this door that hadn't been cracked open in a really, really long time. So instead of being immersed in this ideology and this thought that I'm doing this good and noble thing. Here I'm sitting across from somebody that's not telling me that I'm wrong. He showed me how wrong I was. And all of a sudden, this ideology starts collapsing because how can it be good and noble and honorable and just if it's doing that to a child?

19:32And if it did that to Daryl, how many other people is it doing it to? And that's where I was talking about compartmentalizing. You try to set it aside and go, okay, that was just one incident. And I would do that sort of thing psychologically whenever there's mass shootings, whenever there was somebody that had done a terrible crime that was affiliated with the ideology, you always try to say, well, that was a crazy person. Never the ideology, always the individual. You'd say, well, that person had some screws loose. There was something wrong with them. But when it happens again and again and again and again and again, you have to at some point start evaluating and going, you know what?

20:06Maybe it is the ideology. But you see Daryl's approach and why it works. And it's the same approach we use at, I run a nonprofit called Beyond Barriers, and it helps get people out of extremist groups that can be far right, far left, cults, gangs, etc. It's not to tell the person they're wrong, but to show them how they're wrong. And I don't want to speak for Daryl, but I'm sure he'll probably concur on this too. Like when people say, you know, we're converting people, we want them to feel like they've done it themselves. They have to feel like they've done it themselves. Because if they say, well, Daryl Davis made me change, or Jeff Scoop made me change, or my wife or my husband made me change, that's not real change.

20:42That's a forced change. Real change has to come from the heart and from the mind. So the person, the individual has to do it themselves. I think you're right. I don't think that you guys are changing anybody's minds, but I think that you're planting seeds that then people go in water. And Daryl, when I think about what you do, the magic of Daryl Davis, if I had to break it down, I would say you're a master at motivational interviewing, where in psychology, we would say, you know, if somebody is defensive or resistant to change, the worst thing to do is to directly tell them to change or attack their position.

21:21The best thing to do is to get really curious and start to interview them and say, hey, I'd love to understand your attitudes a little better. And then ask them questions like, how can you hate me when you don't even know me, that bypass their defensiveness, that lead them to reflect genuinely, and start to wonder, yeah, I don't know this man. Why do I hate him? And then realize that their attitudes are more complex than they might have thought. Realize maybe that they don't have good reasons to hold the views that they hold, and then start to find their own reasons for change. Okay, Daryl, tell me what you think about the psychology of motivational interviewing.

22:02Is that what you are? Yes, that's exactly what I do. We don't convert people. You know, when you see my name in the media, it'll say, you know, black musician converts to 200 white supremacists or KKK people, whatever. No, I did not even convert one of them. Yes, I am the impetus for over 200 to convert themselves. And you've heard the expression, Adam, one's perception is one's reality. And that is so indeed true. Whatever somebody perceives is their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. You cannot change anybody's reality. You're going to get pushback. So if you want to affect change on somebody's reality, it's counterintuitive, but don't attack their reality.

22:50Offer them a better perception or perceptions, plural. And if they resonate with one of your perspectives or perceptions, you have planted the seed and it ruminates in their mind if it causes a cognitive dissonance and they try to find out why. And the next thing you know, it's the introspection that does, oh, you know what, maybe I better change my path. And with Jeff Scoop here, it's very important to note, you know, this man was a commander of this organization for 25 years. He built it into the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country. He is responsible for recruiting a large number of people.

23:32So in that position, right, people looked up to him. You know, when he got out, I had people I didn't even know, neo-Nazis, emailing me, asking me, is this true? Did Jeff really leave? And some of them, you know, they want to leave too. But they came through me, and I sent them to Jeff, right? Now, Jeff, as a commander, he brought a lot of people in. He has to sit around and debate because people looked up to this guy. You know, this was their commander. They joined this organization to serve him, right? And now he's coming and saying, hey, folks, you know, I was wrong. Does he want to go and admit this?

24:12How is he going to look in their eyes now? Does he want to lose that throne of power, that seat of power? That took a lot of strength. Now, that is the definition of courage, not curiosity. That's courage to come out and say, hey, I was wrong. This is not right. Well, I'm going to just disagree with your premise there. I'm going to say I think you're both courageous. I think that, Jeff, in your case, you had something to gain and something to lose by leaving the movement, as far as I can tell. Daryl, you have nothing to gain through the work that you do other than making the world a better place.

24:49Well, I gained a lot of friends, man. Jeff is my brother. Hey, I'm an only child. Now I got a brother. I mean, he wouldn't have even made my top thousand list of people I want as a possible brother. But he does now. Okay, so you used a keyword, cognitive dissonance. I'm so glad you brought this up because it struck me that now with both of you planting seeds to try to help people find reasons to change, the way that you do it is very different. And it seems to me that your identities have something to do with that. Daryl, the fact that you approach a white supremacist as a black man, and they have a pleasant, respectful conversation with you.

25:29They discover that you're kind, you're intelligent. You're immediately shattering some of their stereotypes. And so the dissonance is almost inherent to the interaction. Jeff, in your case, it seems to me that the cognitive dissonance is more around saying, I used to share your beliefs. I used to think I was in the right, but actually I was wrong and I've seen the light. And now they have to confront the question of, is it possible that the current version of Jeff is right and the old version was wrong? I'd love to hear the two of you riff on that a little bit and how you each think about using dissonance.

26:02I think, you know, we don't tell people that they're wrong. We really try to show them how that is. You know, as Varel said, you know, this is about seed planting. If you go into these situations and expect somebody to do a full 360 degree turn and a snap of a fingers, that is almost unheard of. I mean, I have a couple of scenarios that I can think of throughout my whole lifetime where things have happened that quick. But the vast majority, like the hundreds of people that we know that have left, it's a process. It takes time. Curiosity is a big part of it. I know when I first got out, they automatically think you flip to the other extreme.

26:36So I'm getting all these emails going, you know, what's the deal? Did you really leave the movement? Are you Antifa now? Are you a communist now? And I'm stressing out at this point. And I'm going, why are everybody think I'm Antifa? Why do they think I'm a communist? What am I saying that's making them think that, you know, and I'm getting really stressed about it. And I started thinking, you know, no, don't get angry. Answer them. Say, no, I'm not Antifa. I'm not a communist. Why do you think that? You know, and just start the conversation. And this is exactly what Daryl does is not get angry, but try to understand them.

27:10So a lot of times what I found in those conversations with people that originally came at me kind of hard is, wow, so I could leave the movement and still be conservative or still be somewhere over here on the right, just not be a racist. And you're like, yes, that would be great. Or you can be on the left. Just don't go way out to the extreme. It doesn't matter where you land. Just don't be on those extremes. Don't hate people. And they're just like, wow, that's pretty cool. So when they have those questions, if they're reaching out in the first place, there's probably some little voice in the back of their head going, you know, maybe this isn't the right path that I'm on.

27:46And they're starting to kind of guess those things. Yep. Let me give you an example of exactly what Jeff's talking about. So one time I had this Klan leader in my car. He was a district leader and he's in the passenger seat. I'm driving. And somehow we got on the topic of crime. And he used that figure of authority called they, you know, they say we never know who they is. You know, they say all black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. That's what he's telling me. And I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, who's doing all the drive-bys and carjackings in Southeast? He was referring to Southeast Washington, D.C., which is predominantly black and high crime ridden.

28:23I said, OK. I said, it's black people. I said, but that's what lives there. You're not considering the demographics. Who's doing all the crime up in Bangor, Maine? White people. Because that's what lives there. He goes, no, no, no. That has nothing to do with it. You know, you all have this gene of, say, black people have born. So, you know, my gene almost came out. But I maintained my calm. And I realized, you know, that was his reality. So how can I tell him something that's going to make him think? I can't give him any thesis from some psychologist or psychiatrist or some other person who studies this.

29:04He's not going to know the person. He's not going to read the book or whatever. So I had to go to where he was. And so I said, look, man, I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or a drive-by. How do you explain that? And he didn't even think about it. He answered me like that. He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet. Right? How do you even bite into that? So I was speechless just driving along. He's over here all smug like, you got nothing to say. I had to think about it. So I used his figure of authority, they. I said, well, you know, they say, all white people have a gene that makes them a serial killer.

29:46He said, what are you talking about? I said, name me three black serial killers. He couldn't do it. I said, just name me one. He couldn't do it. I said, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler, on and on and on. I said, son, they're all white. You are a serial killer. He said, Daryl, I've never killed anybody. I said, your genius legend hasn't come out yet. He goes, well, that's stupid. I said, well, duh. I said, you're right. It is stupid. But it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me.

30:24And he got very quiet. But I could almost hear the wheels in his brain spinning. And then he changed the subject. But within four to five months, he quit the Ku Klux Klan based on that conversation. And his robe and hood was the first robe and hood I ever got. I love that story. So, I mean, it was a stupid analogy, but that's where I had to go. OK, so I didn't attack his reality. I gave him another perception. So that caused a cognitive dissonance, especially when the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, it did. It did. I mean, that is a brilliant and beautiful example of analogical reasoning, where instead of just attacking his reasoning head on, you give him an adjacent case and say, well, you know, if that logic holds, what happens when we put the shoe on the other foot?

31:12And all of a sudden, he doesn't like the logic anymore. One thing I've learned, Adam, in my travels is this. Every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be respected. We all want to be treated fairly and truthfully. We all want to be heard. We want the same things for our family as anybody else wants for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation, it doesn't even have to be about race. It could be about anything, abortion, nuclear weapons, Gaza and Israel, Russia and Ukraine, you name it.

31:54There are a lot of hot topics out there. You're on one side, some of us on the other side. If we can learn to apply those five core values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, I will guarantee that your navigation of that situation, that culture, that society will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive. It almost sounds too easy. And I know this is often months or years of conversation, but I'd love to push the limits of it a little bit. Are there times when you haven't been able to get through to people?

32:31Are there kinds of people that you cannot reach? Yes, there are going to be people on all sides, regardless of the color of their skin, who will go to their grave being hateful, violent, and racist, or anti-Semitic, what have you. I don't give up on those people because I've seen some of them. Some of them come back to me and apologize. I have put some of them in the hospital when they put their hands on me. I've had to fight. Violence is not my thing that I go to first. But if I feel under physical attack, I'm not going to sit there and take it. I've put people in the hospital. I've put people in jail.

33:07And some of those people have come back to me and apologized and have later changed. Not all of them. Some of them have died and gone to their grave feeling that way. And that's fine. I don't give up on them. I move them down my list of priorities. I love the idea of moving them down your priority list. And it's remarkable to me that you don't give up on them. I cannot imagine being as forgiving as you are. And yet, that's part of what I think opens the door for some people to change, is the fact that you're not hitting them back and you're not judging them as harshly as they judge you. Okay, so let's understand respect.

33:44I will sit there and listen to somebody spew all their white supremacist stuff. I don't respect what they are saying, but I respect their right to say it. It's my choice whether I want to believe it or not, or whether I want to comply with it or not. and I expect them to respect my right to give my rebuttal if I have a rebuttal, which may not agree with them. But I want them to hear what I have to say. So why should I expect them to hear what I have to say if I refuse to hear their premise? I mean, that makes so much sense. If you want people to listen to you, you have to be willing to listen to them.

34:21If they don't feel understood, they're not going to want to understand you. Precisely.

34:30All right, I want to go to a lightning round. Goal of this round is to get each of you to answer in one sentence. Jeff, you can start with question one, which is, what is the worst advice that people give for talking to people who disagree with you? To argue. To escalate. Boom. Daryl? The worst advice is if you don't like something, ignore it. There are things that we can ignore, like a headache or a bellyache, because it will go away. But no, anti-Semitism, racism, discrimination is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes and spreads, and then you go away. So let's not ignore it. Let's address it.

35:06Let's not get furious. Let's get curious. Darrell, when you were talking about how your latent gene almost came out, we all have those moments where we're trying to be curious, and somebody just pushes our buttons or trips one of our triggers and we lose our cool. How do you avoid that? Well, in my case, I realized, you know, I got myself into this. I cannot go to a Klan rally and not expect to hear the N-word, okay? It's all over the damn place. So I know that going in. So if I'm going to be triggered by it, then don't go. Jeff, what about you? My take on that would be basically if you're letting someone else get under your skin and you're getting angry, you're giving away your power to them.

35:53You're empowering them by doing that. If I'm letting this person get me angry, that costs energy. That's giving them my energy. And if you can look at it like that and put it in that perspective, it's very helpful, I think. Yeah. Okay. One more lightning round question. You get to organize a dinner party and the people you invite are the people whose minds you would most love to change. Who are you inviting to dinner? Jeff. Oh, boy. I think the heads of the major political parties in the United States, because there's so much divisiveness and division right now there, I think I would try to invite them to help the country together and not be quite so partisan or hateful to one another.

36:30I concur with Jeff. Last question for the two of you. One of the things that's striking to me as I reflect on this conversation is, in psychology, we know that change requires two basic ingredients. One is ability, the other is motivation. and I think the skill part is much easier than the will part and you two have given many people the will to change or at least help them find their own will to change. We have a lot of listeners who are struggling with that and I'd love to just ask each of you for your closing advice. For anybody who's listening who may want to start changing, where should they begin?

37:09And or if they've got somebody in their life that they want to help change, What else would you advise that we haven't already covered? For like a family member or someone else that's concerned about somebody, don't slam the door on that person 100%. You know, you can say, hey, I disagree with you, but I still love you. Or I don't agree with what you're doing and I can't head you over, but know that I still love you, I'm still here for you. Doing that gives them an opportunity to know that there's a door or a window open for them. Because I tell you what, when you get involved in these groups or gangs, cults, far right, far left, religious extremism, whatever type of group that is, it is so isolating.

37:47It is very isolating. And either you cut off everybody that's outside of your circle or bubble, or they cut you off. So a lot of times you don't have that support system. And that's a really difficult thing. Darrell, find your line. And what do I mean by find your line? Jeff and I are on the front lines. Okay. We're out there with these people, so to speak. Some people, they can't do that. They cannot bring themselves to sit down with a KKK member or a neo-Nazi. I can't sit with those people. I'm afraid of them, or I'm afraid I might punch them out. They just irritate me or whatever. Got it. You don't belong on the front line.

38:24All right. Maybe you can be on the back line. Maybe you can be on the sideline. Maybe you can be online. Find the line where you most feel comfortable, all right, and participate. And because we all have to work together, there's no line that you can be on that is any more important than any other line. We all have to work together, put all these lines together, and that's how we create a great society. Just find your line. Darrell, you said find your line. And I think a great lesson from the impact you've had is also find your question. The one thing you can ask people, your go-to question that opens them up.

39:05So mine is, what evidence would change your mind? Daryl, yours is, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And I think that everybody is in a position to find a question they can ask that opens people up instead of shutting them down. We're coming up on Thanksgiving. and for years, you know, I've been hearing people say, I'm not going to Thanksgiving with my family because my sister voted for so-and-so and I voted for this one. Families are being torn apart over politics. When two adversaries are talking, they're not fighting, they're talking. They may be disagreeing, they may even be getting a little loud, but at least they're talking.

39:46It's when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So you want to keep the conversation going. And remember that a missed opportunity for conversation is a missed opportunity for reconciliation. You know, let's not be against the person. Let's be against the ism that the person believes in. Okay, let's be anti-racism, the message. Let's not be against the person because that person learned that. Let's help that person. But let's be against the ideology behind it. Daryl, you are a national treasure. Jeff, you're a former terrible person working to become a better one.

40:26Now, I really appreciate the work that you're both doing to help people become more decent. Well, see, you are one of the people who are online. That's your line. Because, you know, you're helping to promote our message of reconciliation and peace. And we really appreciate that, Adam, very, very much. We do. Thank you. It's an honor to have a chance to help share your message. Thank you.

40:50Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pillar-Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact-checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hailash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Leighton Brown.

41:21Do you believe that some people just need to be punched in the face? You cannot beat the Nazi out of a Nazi by punching him or her in the face or whatever, no. I want to amplify that. All the years that I was involved in the movement, not one person ever left by getting punched in the face. And in fact, every time there was violence, that entrenched people further. Why give someone more reasons to be enraged?