The psychology of rivalry and resilience with Maria Sharapova

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1:45Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

2:03Maria Sharapova is a tennis luminary, one of only 10 women in history to complete a career grand slam in singles. She moved to the U.S. from Russia with her dad, who was her coach, when she was six years old, who borrowed money to attend an elite training camp in Florida. Maria retired in 2020 and was inducted into the Tennis Hall of Fame in 2025. five. Since retiring, she also became a mother, an investor, and a podcast host. On her show, Pretty Tough, she interviews women like Misty Copeland, Zoe Saldana, and Chelsea Handler. But today, I get to sit down with Maria to talk about resilience, motivation, and whether she's ready for a little friendly competition, starting now.

2:41The heavy hitting questions are coming so soon.

2:47I have to tell you, we've known each other for a decade, and we've never played a racquet sport together? No tennis, no padel, no pickleball, not even ping pong. Why? I like how you say padel. It's very European of you, Adam. I think it's technically Mexican, right? Padel is the origin. Well, that's too deep. It's too early to get in there. Are you dodging the question already? Pretty much so. But no, the reason we haven't is, well, we've met at conferences, We met at fantastic events, but it's usually those types of events that I join where I know ahead of time there isn't a court. Why are you avoiding it?

3:27I did it for so long. It was part of my life every single day. And I think I've said this to you before, but when your body has known what it's felt like to be at a very high level, when it's toned, when it's fast paced, when the muscle twitch is at an excellent level, unlike right now, it's always hard to go back to something that isn't at that high level and do it at a very unfamiliar, slower pace. What would it take to make you rethink that?

4:03Well, I love tennis as a workout. I think it is one of the best workouts you can do. First of all, because you are off your screen and you cannot think about anything else. You cannot think about your work, about your family. You can't have any distractions because if those little thoughts start creeping in, you are going to make errors. Your opponent's going to hit many winners and it's not going to feel good. So what I love about racket sports is that you are all in. And I love something that puts you in a position to give it everything, mentally, physically. And I think that's why I chose the sport for such a long time.

4:45Okay. So I need to appeal to your desire for a good workout and for a distraction from work and family. Is that what you're telling me? Yes. Yes. Is tennis the racket sport you're most likely to say yes to? Absolutely. Oh, interesting. I would have thought it would be ping pong because you don't feel as much the, oh, but I'm not at the top of my game and I haven't been training and I'm not as great as I used to be. I have no chance at any of the other racket sports, not pickle, not padel, not, I mean, ping pong is off the table completely. Why? Ironically. I need more movement. It's literally on the table.

5:24Yeah. Well, for me, it's off the table. Because there's not enough movement. It's too quick. I like it to be a little more intellectual. My father used to say, you have to play a cat and mouse game. And that's what I loved about tennis, which is quite ironic because I was known to have such powerful strokes and I liked a quicker point. But my father's philosophy was that you just need to be smarter during the point. It's not about hitting a winner. Okay. So now that I've gotten my most important rethinking question off the table, one of the things that I think a lot of people associate with you when they look back on your career is resilience.

6:05And I would love to hear you talk a little bit about the lessons that you learned as a tennis player about resilience. You had to bounce back from a number of challenges ranging from defeat to time away from the game to injury. What did all that teach you about how to bounce back from adversity or even bounce forward? Resilience was a huge daily component of my life as an athlete. You start to learn that focus on things that you can control. You know, focus on your composure, focus on your reactions, focus on, you know, you did have a lot of confidence going into a match and all of a sudden that broke.

6:50You know, someone yelled something in the crowd. You know, sport just taught me that control that emotional composure. Your opponent sees everything. You know, your opponent sees everything on your face and in your body language. And boy, was that a fantastic lesson in motherhood. You were spending this quiet afternoon with your kid and all of a sudden this tantrum comes up and it throws you off piste. When my kid comes in and says something that just like, oh, I want to boil inside. But I know that if I show up to him confidently, calmly, I know that that will change his energy as well. Right.

7:31He feeds off of my energy. And so I just I think of resilience as so many different components. components injuries getting injured and having to accept that you are not it's not about getting better anymore it's just about getting your body back in a position to get better you have to forget about winning which is so hard as an athlete to forget about winning because every single day you're training to win and so when all of a sudden your body just lets you down what do you do you focus on yourself you focus on getting stronger you stop thinking about the bigger picture. And the bigger picture has always been about championships and trophies.

8:11And so going back to the basics was also an important resilient lesson. You know, thinking about the everyday resilience of tennis, I'm sure you watched Roger Federer's Dartmouth commencement speech. The moment that stopped me in my tracks was when he said, I have a question for you. What percentage of points do you think I want in those matches? Only 54%. I was like, wait, one of the greatest tennis players of all time is barely above 50-50. How frustrating is that to know that you're at the very top of your game and you're hardly going to do better than a coin toss? Were you aware of that when you were playing?

8:50And how did you deal with it? I was very well aware that you would lose a lot of points. I wasn't as particular about the percentages, but I knew one of the philosophies that I always thought about throughout a match is the first point is important and so is the 10th point and so is the momentum shifts in the middle of the match but the only thing that matters is who wins when you shake hands you know we can look back to statistics and we can think back to numbers and you can apply a lot of data but ultimately, what does that data do? It only makes your instinct better because when it's six all in the third set or in the fifth set and you are playing that final tiebreaker, you know, you're, you're not thinking about points won or lost.

9:38You're letting your body do the work. You're letting your mind do the work. You're hoping that you're free and that you're just capitalizing on your experience and just the sheer will to win. Okay. When you talk about winning, there are two different kinds of winning in psychology. One is basically mastery. It's about maximizing what I'm capable of and performing at my best. The other is more victory. It's about beating other people and being the best as opposed to just my best. And I think obviously both of these motivations are part of what drives you, but would you rather play your best and lose or play poorly and win?

10:20I love that question because I think my mentality changed over time. The more experience that I gained in my career and the more coaches I had throughout, I remember I did a little training block with Jimmy Connors and it didn't last very long. It lasted a few weeks, but one of the strongest takeaways was I was playing a practice match and he was just on the sidelines. And after so many weeks of training, he's like, I just want to see you. I just want to see you compete. You we worked on and I want to see you play a practice set. So I'm playing against a sparring partner and it's a really tough game on his serve.

10:55Now I had break points. I didn't win that point. I didn't get the game and it was a really long game and he wins the game and I'm upset. And my version of upset is not like John McEnroe's version of upset. Hadn't noticed. But Jimmy notices it and he comes over and he says, I am so thrilled about that game. And I said, how can you put, I had three break points and I didn't take my chances. And he said, but what does your opponent think right now? You know, you're playing against a guy who's serving at 120 miles an hour and you had three break points. You just put a seed in his mind. The next time he's going to step on the line, he knows that you just had those three break points.

11:39forget about the fact that you lost the game you did so much more than just lose that game so you built up this fear in him and what happened on the next game I break him going back to another memory I was I was interviewing several coaches and I remember we're in this New York hotel room and one of the coaches comes in and and he just asked me about my goals he's like what do you want to achieve what do you want to do and the first thing that came to mind is like I I just want to beat them, anyone that's across the net. And he's like, well, I want to work with you. It sounds like then early in your career, you wanted to win, even if you played poorly.

12:21But over time, you got more and more focused on, well, how well did I play regardless of the outcome? Yeah. Little by little. I wonder how far that extends. So if you think about later in your career, would you even in a grand slam say, yeah, I'd rather play my best and lose? No. I didn't think so. So that's doable when the stakes are lower, but as they go up, the outcome matters more. Yeah, there's a lot that's associated with winning. There's the element of respect. There's not feeling sorry for yourself. There's the press conference after. Yeah, there are a lot of external factors that have better association with winning than losing.

13:04How much of that motivation for you is loving to win versus hating to lose? I never measured those two. As I grew up, and I really, I grew up in front of the public, in front of my fans. And, you know, with every year, I think individuals saw me improve and saw me grow as a person and as a player. And I was, I focused more about the quality of my work as opposed to anything else, even in my training, even the way that I competed. And I was always a big competitor, but it became a more professional competitor because I realized that there's so much more to the sport. It's a lot bigger than who I am or who my opponent is.

13:46There's a deep level of respect for, you know, grinding it out every single week and seeing the same faces and places. And beyond that, it's also a business. Makes sense. you know I think one of the things that that athletes are always acutely aware of is what makes a coach great and also what are the bad habits that that make coaches ineffective what is what's a standout memory you have from a coaching moment that changed the way you think about bringing out the best in people I think it's definitely evolved with my career because my father was my coach for a very long time until I won my third Grand Slam and so the lessons that I learned in those years was that it's very important to have someone that deeply cares about you as a human being, as opposed to you as a Wimbledon champion.

14:37And so when my father was no longer that figure on a daily basis in my tennis career, it was really important to choose the people that would be next to me that had my back beyond winning or losing. Because with success comes a lot of demand. And when you have someone next to you that really deeply cares about your mind and the health of your body and just you as an individual trying to grow in this crazy world, I think that's a stronger quality than anything else. How did your later coaches show that? The coach often had to be the bad guy. The coach often had to say no. The coach often had to look at me across from the table and say, you know, you've been invited to, who knows, the Met Gala.

15:29I mean, this silly example, but no, you're not flying across the world in the middle of your season to attend something that seems fun. It is fun. It's engaging. It's going to get a lot of traction. It's great for your sponsors. You're in the public eye, but ultimately it takes you away from your core goal. And that's a really hard conversation. So there's a deep level of respect that has to happen between you and that person, where they're able to just tell you like it is. And they're very honest, and they're not saying things just to make you happy. I think that's a role that we forget coaches need to play, which is they're not just helping you build your skills.

16:09They're also helping you prioritize your time and set boundaries. Yes, yes. And sometimes that's more than one person. Sometimes it's not a coach. Sometimes it is a manager. Sometimes it's someone, a mental coach. Sometimes it's just a friend, but ultimately it's such an important asset. When you look back in your career, what would you say is the accomplishment you're proudest of? I look back and I think of consistency. I think I gained success at a very young age. I was 17 years old. And although I was already, it was considered a prodigy and a phenom from a young age. I remember those terms are floated around, but it's never until you actually deliver that you feel that they're somewhat acceptable.

16:55And at 17 years old, when I won the finals at Wimbledon, it was when I realized that I need to deliver more on this promise where I'm holding the trophy and everyone around me wants to beat me now. So you say consistency. Are we talking 10, 15 years of consistency? Like, do you think about that actually, you know, a string of, does it stretch out that long? Can you be proud of all of that together? Yes. In a sport like tennis, where you are competing at least 10 out of the 12 months and you're playing four majors every four years in Olympic year, you have 1 ,000 events, there's 10 to 12 of them that you compete in, you have to show up to each one of them.

17:44And just because you won the other one, I remember finishing the Olympics in London, getting a silver medal. And in five days, I had to be in Canada to play a pretty big tournament. And I didn't even get a hug from my manager. He's already asking me what flight I want to be on. and just before the Olympics, it was Wimbledon. Two weeks before that, it was the French Open. So as much as you want to think about, yes, this is my moment, I need to win this one, there's always something around the corner. And it's also a little bit sad because you don't always have the time to reflect and appreciate what success really looks like in your own career.

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20:53So let's talk about what you've rethought since you retired from tennis. At least publicly, you've rethought your relationship with Serena Williams. Because a lot of people have seen the media portrayal of the two of you as rivals, and there seemed to be some animosity or even iciness early on. And pretty much anyone who followed tennis over the last quarter century was shocked to see you win a major award and Serena present it to you. What happened? Yeah. So Serena was my opponent since I was 16 years old until the very end. And she got the better of me in most of the matches we played. And it was fierce.

21:38I mean, she, amongst many other women stood in the way of championship trophies that I wanted to win. And it wasn't a secret that we weren't friends for many years. We'd say, hello, we'd ask, how are you? But it was very much on the surface. And when I got inducted into the Hall of Fame, they had asked me, you know, if there's anyone I can think of, sometimes it's a coach, sometimes it's a family member that would introduce me. And the first person I thought of was Serena. I knew it would shock everyone. I knew that the moment would be impactful if she was by my side. Because of that rivalry, because of the things we've occasionally said about each other, knowing that we'd be on stage together and sharing a moment of respect and acknowledgement.

22:29And we've always had this quiet sense of respect for each other because we knew what it takes to win on the center stage. But to share that moment publicly and acknowledge each other's success and put aside all that negativity and form a bond, I think it was a really strong statement. I mean, it's very rare that you get to reflect on your career and your victories. But to do it alongside someone that you've shared the court with and you've had some of the best victories and some of the toughest losses in your career just made it extra special. Yeah, it was amazing to see. And I think it was one of those rare cultural touchstone moments where people say, wow, if those two can bury the hatchet and become so close, maybe there's hope for some of the relationships that I wrote off to.

23:18I asked Serena about it and she said, you know, of course, part of the rivalry was we were pitted against each other. And you obviously spoke to that. She also said something else that I thought was interesting. She said, I think part of it was we're just a lot alike. How were you similar and how did those similarities actually work against the two of you bonding? Hmm. We actually had a similar upbringing where our fathers were such big role models in our career and coached us through so many Grand Slam victories and until the very last day of our careers were very much involved. So that family dynamic was always there.

24:01I mean, I look back to the video of that Wimbledon final in 2004 where my dad and Richard are hugging and it always gives me goosebumps because there's so many things come together in that moment. Years of tears, of the grind, of sacrifices, years of the unknown. And you put so much time and you invest so much mentally, physically, financially with no guarantees of the future. And in that moment, these two fathers come together and just pay respect to the journey. So I'll start with that. that's a very strong foundational similarity. We came from very humble beginnings. We didn't come from a lot of money.

24:47We didn't come from a lot of resources. And also not many people believed in us when we were young. You know, not many people believed that Serena or Venus could get to the top. Not many people thought that I had the physical, the athletic attributes to get me to the top. Not a lot of people invested in us financially. at the very beginning. So, I mean, that's how much more should we keep going? I mean, that's a lot. And, you know, I guess then the follow-up question is what is it about those similarities then initially drives you apart as opposed to bringing you together? My first hunch is it's obviously, you know, in a lot of ways, sports is zero sum, as you alluded to.

25:33In order for you to win, Serena had to lose a lot of the time and vice versa. does that mean the more you have in common, the more it feels like, well, that's my niche. Do not take it from me. I mean, it is the reality of an individual sport. Like I knew I had to set those boundaries because that's what worked for me. It was very difficult for me to be in a grand slam final against someone that I would potentially have dinner with. I knew that I wouldn't be able to compete as fierce as I would if they weren't my friend, But that's, I mean, there's many different ways to do it. I knew that's the way that worked for me, and it did.

26:14And so, I mean, I was very lucky. I formed friendships away from tennis, and I always went back to them. And they were the very foundation of my life, of just normalcy in my life when my life was upside down or my life, it wasn't a normal upbringing. I didn't have a traditional upbringing. So my friends were rooted in just being a normal human being. And I also thought it was a healthier friendship than having someone that I'd see every single day and that I would compete against. That's so interesting. I never thought about it this way. But yeah, of course, when you're competing against someone, you don't want to feel any ambivalence about beating them.

26:54You don't want to worry how they feel bad if you won. Yeah. Yeah. That seems reasonable. And then, okay, the more similar you are, the greater the risk is that you can really empathize and relate to what they're going through when they lose.

27:12I think as you like when you're an athlete and I'm sure you you've there are moments where you felt like that as a diver is you have so many responsibilities as a young athlete and you can't think of them all including how your opponent will feel after you beat them it's just there's there's just too much to focus on there's too many other important things that take priority over that. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And, you know, it's interesting how many rivalries have followed similar trajectories. I think it looks to me from afar like Chris Everett and Martina Navratilova, very similar dynamic.

27:54I mean, their relationship ended, right? Early on after they played doubles together, essentially, and they didn't seem to communicate much. And now they're like sisters. I think about like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are another example of that. And, you know, it's kind of interesting, like, okay, looking back, you grew up with your rival. Like, of course, they lived an experience that really no one else can understand. And so finding that common ground seems almost inevitable. I think there's perhaps there's an element of it where you're being pitted against someone, but you don't feel like you're against them.

28:31You just feel like you're in your own lane, or at least that's how I felt about my rivals is I have my team and I have my lane and there's only one champion at the end of this lane. And I work way too hard. I dedicate way too much to have anything get in the way of that. And, and I feel like it's not even thinking about, I'm against them is just focusing and zoning in on yourself as opposed to thinking about people around you. There's a great body of research on rivalry led by Gavin Kilduff, which shows that the, well, it shows a bunch of things. One is that we're more motivated when we're competing against our rivals than we are against other opponents.

29:12Another kind of interesting pattern that jumps out at me is that the joy of victory is greater when we beat a rival, but also the agony of defeat seems to be greater too. Love to hear you react to that. I guess, I guess so. I don't, that's a hard one, Adam, because I don't, I never really allowed the reality of a tennis match make me feel worse because it is someone that perhaps I liked less than others. It wasn't really, it wasn't a motivating factor that I wanted to beat them because I don't know, they got a contract that I wanted to get her. I'm just making up silly examples, but I always thought of winning as this is for me, this is for my family, this is for my team.

30:02This is something that I've done since I was a young girl. And that matters. Like there's so much depth and velocity in that, that outweighs anger or rivalry you might have against someone.

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32:45All right, it's time for a lightning round. Are you ready? I mean, I don't know. Maria Sharapova cracks under the pressure of the lightning round. I can already see it, the artwork with like a lightning. Boom. Here we go. Okay, first question is, what is the worst advice that you see given to young athletes? So I see a lot of parents take their kids to so many different activity. There's swimming, there's art, there's soccer, there's American football, there's gymnastics. And it kind of becomes a maze where you're just going from one place to another. At a certain point in a young child's career, if there is talent, if there's interest, if there's passion and excitement about something, you do have to hone in on it.

33:44Everything that you choose to do around it has to complement the activity that your child is interested in. And what does that mean? That might mean taking them out of a social circle that they're very excited about or an inconvenient time to which they have to go and they don't have enough time to rest. So there are a lot of inconveniences when it comes to growing a particular interest or a passion in someone's career. And so I think the least distractions you have, the better. Okay, you get to play a doubles tennis match with anyone on earth, alive or dead. Who would you want as your partner and who are you playing against?

34:25Okay, I'm going to throw you a little curveball and say, oh boy. Okay, I'm going to say David Hockney. Do you know the artist David Hockney? No. David Hockney just seems like such a cool spirit. And I just think we'd have a lot of fun. And against, I'll say I'd like to play against Madonna. Ooh. And who's her partner? I'd say Michael Jordan. Oh, wow. Why Michael Jordan and why Madonna? Michael Jordan is the first person that I got like starstruck from. We had arrived at an airport terminal together and he came out of the car and I'd never like experienced that type of fame before. I also, I don't know if a more competitive human being has ever lived.

35:11Yeah, that's true. Just be interesting to have that on the other side of the court, right? The will to win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we know that he's played a lot of ping pong. I don't know how that translates to tennis, but presumably he's coordinated enough. Apparently ping pong makes you worse at tennis. Does it? I don't play enough ping pong, but apparently it throws you off your game. Ooh, good to know. and what's the draw to Madonna? I love the, like the mystery of Madonna. Um, and I just love her music. All right. Well, I think, I think you could sell out that tennis match at pretty much any stadium in the world.

35:50So bring it on. Okay. Office hours time. So this is the part where you get to play podcast host and ask me a question of your choosing. You can take it wherever you want to go. But if you have a curiosity, a challenge, a puzzle, a mystery, choose your own adventure. Okay. No, I have one. So when I was younger and I was an athlete for many years and established myself as the number one player in the world, I wanted to shift some of my focus, not all of it, but I wanted to shift it into business. And I wasn't always respected for that decision. From the outside world, I wasn't given that confidence or allowed to tap into something that really interested me and I felt like I could be competitive in.

36:42Why do you think we don't allow individuals to be more than one thing? Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, why do we typecast people and sort of limit them to one lane? I think there are probably a few factors at play. The first one is we assume that excellence is all-consuming. if you want to be the best in the world at anything, especially a sport where there are so many talented people, tennis is not, oh, what do I want to throw under the bus here? Tennis is not diving. I'm going to throw my own sport under the bus, right? There aren't millions of kids who grow up thinking, yeah, I want to be Greg Louganis one day, right?

37:21Whereas there are millions of kids thinking, I want to grow up and be Maria Sharapova one day. So I think that we just look at that and assume that if you want to be at the top of your game, you have to sacrifice everything else. And of course, we know life is not that zero sum. We know that actually having outside hobbies is a source of energy. It builds your confidence. It can actually give you new skills. And I think that that's just a misconception. I think the second thing is there's a self-threatening component of it. Wait a minute. If you can be the best in the world at tennis and a successful business person, what does that say about me?

37:59I'm doing my job full time and I'm not that successful at it. And I think people have a hard time confronting that reality that somebody can have their attention and energy divided and still outperform them at each of those activities. And I think people cope with that threat by rejecting the possibility that, in fact, you could succeed in multiple domains. What do you think? Is that an element of jealousy? Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's interesting, actually. I would have said it's envy. I think about envy as, well, I want what you have. And I wanted to be good at that thing. But the fact that I can't be a world-class athlete, I cope with that by saying, well, at least I'm succeeding in a career that is a great fit for me.

38:43Wait, you're succeeding in my career. How dare you? But as you say it, I think - Do you think it's more prevalent in women? Oh, yeah. So let's talk about the gender component. But first, I just want to react to the jealousy comment because I didn't think about it, but there is an element of jealousy too, which is you're taking something from me or you're potentially taking something from me, which is my self-esteem. And I mean, we have now decades of evidence that particularly men are especially threatened by the success of women. And there's a sense of precarity that comes along with that. I think winning a masculinity contest is about proving your strength.

39:30It's about proving your superiority. And the idea that a woman could come along and outperform me in multiple domains, that's a major assault. It's an affront on manhood. I'm sure you read psychology journals for fun in your spare time. All the time. Jennifer Boston and colleagues have a body of research on precarious manhood. And they basically highlight how the challenge of masculinity is that it's hard to win and it's easy to lose. You have to be competing all the time to prove it. And similar to trust, it takes all this effort to build up and earn, and then one fail, and you've completely compromised it all.

40:15And I think that the image of a highly capable woman, unfortunately evokes that insecurity in a lot of men. What do you think? I look back at, I think we grow from our own experiences. And there was a moment in my early 20s when I had the same manager since I was 11 years old. And he was full-time focusing on my career. I mean, it started as doing my visas as a young girl to signing my first big contract with Nike. and then it became my investment portfolio and so on. But in my early 20s, he signed another female player. She was a Chinese player and she was coming up in the ranks. And if I'm being honest, it did not make me feel good.

41:04First, because it was taking his time away from focusing on, you know, my career to now, wait, there's somebody else in the mix. Fast forward two years later, she wins a Grand Slam. And the girl I'm talking about is Lena. She becomes one of my toughest opponents, an incredible player, especially on clay courts. And not only does she take his time, but she becomes one of the highest earners in sport, in all of sport. And I had this really tough conversation with my manager saying, you know, I thought it was just you and I, like we've been at this from the very beginning. And the words he said to me impacted the way that I think about deals and the way that I think about business is he said, her fame will only make you bigger and better and will only make you bigger deals.

42:08So I look back at that moment and he was so right because she became, I mean, our sport became more international because of her. We gained five to eight tournaments in the Asian market. We never tapped into that market for our sport. Our sport grew considerably after her victory because of her success. And it just really, it just, it shifted my perspective who I thought was getting in the way of my contracts, you know, and my financial gains and my victories on court only made me a better competitor and honestly only made me richer. Yeah. It's, I mean, I think that's a great example of how, you know, as soon as you step off the court, things are not as zero sum as they seem.

42:56They actually turn out to be positive some. I tell people this all the time about books. I'll get asked from time to time, And does it bother you that maybe there's another author out there who outsold you in your genre? I'm like, well, first of all, it depends on the quality of their work. If I think their work is not good, I might be a little annoyed. But I never worry about that or feel envy about it because people reading is good for, one, it's good for the world. And two, people reading is good for books. And it sounds like having another highly successful tennis player in your orbit. But yeah, it amplifies the sport.

43:32That's a win for everybody who loves the sport. Which is hard to recognize when you're young. When you're a young athlete, especially in individual sport, it's so easy to be selfish about your own success. And it's hard to think about the bigger picture. Like when I was saying about the bigger picture, the sport as a whole. You're such a small little particle of a bigger identity. and if there's someone in the mix that is growing this global force and is making you better and a better player and you know more commercially successful then bring it on i think that's something we need to reinforce especially as kids are growing up i just read some research showing that high exposure to sports actually reinforces kind of a zero-sum win-lose mindset and it leads people to approach the whole world as if like, oh, I have to be better than others and I have to make sure that other people fail if I want to succeed.

44:28And like, wait, first of all, like, did you forget that you have a team and making your team better is good for you? And secondly, like there's way more win-win in the world than there is win-lose. Like, let's not lose sight of that. Exactly. Okay, I have one more question for you before we wrap. Okay. All right, so Alison Felix recently announced that she's training for the 2028 Olympics. The question is, are you next? I'm not. Sorry to burst that bubble. No, you haven't even thought about it? No. Zero. Yeah. There's no fire in my belly to re-engage that mental muscle, mental or physical. Wow.

45:12Well, in some ways I'm sad to hear it. In other ways, I'm also happy for you that you don't feel like you've lost a part of yourself. Are we ending this on a sad note? No, I think to flip that around is I feel like I had a very healthy departure and a very healthy relationship with my career. And it's one of the most difficult decisions I've had to make. And I think it, I know it's on a different scale to maybe other decisions that women have to make, whether it's choosing their first job or entering a new workforce after having a baby, all equally important decisions. I knew it was difficult, but I knew in my gut that it was the right one.

45:56And I feel very confident and comfortable about it. And I'm very excited to explore the other chapters that life now has to offer. We're excited to explore them with you Thank you Adam

46:12Rethinking is hosted by me Adam Grant The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard Our producer is Jessica Glazer Our editor is Alejandra Salazar Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson Our technical director is Jacob Winnick And our fact checker is Paul Durbin Our team includes Eliza Smith Roxanne Hailash, Banban Chang Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivang And Whitney Pennington Rogers Original music by Hans Dale Sue and Alison Leighton Brown.

46:43So if I am hearing you correctly then, after tennis, Padel would be your next choice. I think so. Do you play Padel? I do. I love it. How much have you played? Zero. You haven't played at all? No. Oh, it's so much fun. It's like playing doubles tennis on a racquetball court. And having a partner and also the strategy of using the walls, it adds another dimension to it. Well, I was never great at doubles. I didn't like sharing. Which is probably why my child doesn't like sharing. Yeah, lacking a role model there.

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48:13Learn more at schwab.com slash teen. There's a reason millions of people start their day with Morning Brew Daily. Each morning, we break down the biggest news in business from the latest tech headlines to why nobody can afford a house right now. all in a format that fits seamlessly into your day. You'll leave each episode of Morning Brew Daily smarter and ready to take on the world around you. I'm Toby Howell. And I'm Neil Freiman. And we're ready to show you that business news doesn't have to be boring. So join us on Morning Brew Daily, available wherever you get your podcasts.