Behind the Scenes with Andrew Jarecki

28:15You can't imagine prison after prison after prison, Donaldson prison, Kilby prison, Bibb prison, each one of these places, Holman, where they have 240 people on the death row. And your guy was, right, before he's executed. You've been watching that for an hour. And then here's Steve Marshall, the chief law enforcement officer of the state of Alabama. and he says, I've been told that there's some systemic problem in all of our facilities. And I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Yeah. And it's not just willful blindness. I mean, it's just intentional cruelty. It's a willingness to preside over a system of death camps.

29:01They are death camps. We have to say that's what they are. Since we started working the film, which was seven years ago, 1 ,500 people have died in that little prison system. You know, they have 20 ,000 people in the prison system. They have another 25 ,000 in the jails in Alabama where people die regularly. And somehow people are dying of, you know, highest level of drug overdose of any prison system in the country. Not that there are not lots of other horrific ones. Highest numbers of suicide. Highest level of sexual assault. and just the brutality of the situation. You can't run that without knowing it.

29:43You can't say, well, I wasn't aware of it because there were enough layers between me and the people that were, you know, actually in the trenches doing the business of killing people. After the break, more from my conversation with Andrew Jarecki.

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30:49And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org. Support for the show comes from Public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An interface stuck in 1997? Or something that looks modern, but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth? Public is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, it's all there. But what really makes Public different is the technology behind it.

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32:05See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Sunday is built on a deceptively simple premise. A healthier yard starts beneath the surface. By analyzing your soil and using climate data, Sunday creates a custom yard plan powered by nutrient-dense ingredients instead of traditional synthetic treatments. It's a shift away from guesswork and towards understanding. which historically tends to produce better outcomes. Go to GetSunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That website, again, is GetSunday.com. Let's talk a little bit about Alabama because I'm curious about what you, what was your level of understanding, knowledge, familiarity with Alabama before you did this project?

32:57it was probably the state i knew the least about in the union you know it's just not something if you grew up in new york city and you study history you're not spending a ton of time on alabama um i knew a little bit you know like they're i don't know like the state motto of you know a typical american state will be like the sunshine state or the show me state you know alabama's motto is we dare defend our rights. Yeah. You know, which is really like, if you want to come and have an opinion, you can go fuck yourself. We're not interested in your opinion. Yeah. We're just going to do our thing.

33:35And certainly we don't want you telling us how to deal with our Negroes or our population of prisoners or our crime or, you know, any of it. It's just, there's a, there's a wall. I'm not sure whether that's more or less egregious than New Jersey calling itself the Garden State, but where are these gardens in New Jersey? I haven't seen anything along the turnpike. But it's a hard, you know, I've done, I think that I have done more podcast episodes of Origins History that are situated in Alabama than in any other state. I'm drawn to this place. And for the same reason, I feel like it's not the United States.

34:21It's something, it is within the United States, but not of the United States. Or maybe I'm being too kind to the United States. It is clearly in some ways a foreign country. It's kind of amazing you're saying that because the chaplain who I visited and met and encouraged me to come back, Chaplain Browder, after I was in it for six months, so the first year or two. And I stayed in touch with him constantly. He's quite a bit older now. He's seven years older than when I first met him. But he's still a very thoughtful guy. And he said, I'm telling you, Andrew, Alabama ain't in these United States.

35:04But then you ask yourself whether that's even right. The reality is that upstate New York, Robert Brooks just got killed in upstate New York by corrections officers who beat him to death. And the only reason we don't think it was natural causes or a drug overdose is because they were, I don't even want to say dumb enough, they were entitled enough to just leave their body cameras on because they just assumed that nobody was ever really going to try to figure out what happened to poor Robert Brooks, who was handcuffed when they beat him to death. So it's happening in New York. You know, if you were in a, if you had put your dog in upstate New York in a kennel because you were going on holiday and you saw this, you would say, I'm calling the ASPCA.

35:48This is a total disaster. Nobody can put their dog in this. So it's not a whole lot better in a lot of these places. Two things can be true simultaneously. One is that, in general, the prison conditions in the United States are appalling compared to our peers around the world. But there is something particular and unusual about Alabama that elevates Alabama even above its miserable peers. And I'm wondering whether we can sort of, since we've both been immersed in this, we can put our finger on what it is. And I'm wondering, I'm thinking about Steve Marshall, which is, if you, I don't know, I'm making this up, but if you sat down with the attorney general of New York State, they would have the good grace to be embarrassed about what was happening in the prisons.

36:42Steve Marshall, and I want you to talk a little bit about your interview with Steve Marshall. Steve Marshall, when confronted with these questions, wasn't even remotely embarrassed. In fact, he had the gall when he had to give that one quote from him about when you ask him about Christian grace. He says, I believe in Christian grace, but that doesn't mean somebody should get out of prison. I mean, look, I think anybody can have a change of heart. I'll say that. I think God can invade somebody. I believe in the concept of grace. But grace itself doesn't mean release from prison. Grace means that you're relieved from the burden of your sin.

37:17It's not even that he's defiant. It's that he thinks he's on the side of God, right? Now that is different. Can you, what are your thoughts on the peculiarity of Alabama? And can you talk about, let's talk about Steve Marshall because you spent time with him. Yeah. How much, how long was that interview? I think that interview was shorter than most. Maybe it was two hours. By the way, this is why I love documentarians. Your idea of shorter than most is two hours. Yeah. My idea of shorter than most is 10 minutes. four. And we do some sevens and some nines, you know. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. They're kicking.

37:55Usually the wife is like standing in the corner and being like looking at the watch. But Steve Marshall gave you two hours? Yeah. I mean, you know, the great thing about somebody like this is that they say the quiet part out loud. There's no, there's no shame in it. Um, and I don't really know how he manages it, you know, as a self-proclaimed Christian, I don't know how he goes and kisses his kids and says, like, daddy's upholding the law and so on. Because he knows what the statistics are, right? Let's say he just doesn't, he forces himself or he prevents himself from having access to the prisons.

38:40You know, you can always put some kind of operatic in between you and the prisons. And then you say, I don't know, I saw the reports and it doesn't look like it's all that bad. So I don't know how he describes it to himself, but, and I, and I think, you know, politicians are kind of will of the wisp and, you know, he used to be a Democrat and then now he's a Republican. And then he was recently so Republican that he was one of the guys who, one of the local state officials who came to New York and put on the red tie and the Trump outfit and went down to lower Manhattan and start talking about how Trump was being railroaded by the justice system and so on.

39:18So he's always auditioning. And by the way, right now, Steve Marshall is trying to run for Senate. He's trying to run for Tommy Tuberville's seat in the Senate. So the football coach, Tommy Tuberville, became a U.S. senator from Alabama. He's the one that did not know that there were three branches of government, right? He did not have a lot of training. He just thought it was offense and defense. Exactly. What would you do with this third branch? I mean, that's what's happening in the federal government too. They're getting rid of some of the branches I hear. We have too many branches that we're going to doge those branches right out.

39:57But, you know, I think he just imagines, first of all, I think he's very politically expeditious. You know, he wants to become a U.S. senator. He wants to be the guy that's the tough on crime guy. He's sort of made book with this organization called Vocal in Alabama, which is Victims of Crime and Leniency, which is literally like a group of women who are crime, who, you know, have had a crime happen in their family. And they go to every parole hearing and they don't know the people. They get a little card before they go there. We sort of embedded with them and maybe should make a film about them.

40:41And they go to a parole hearing where you have a guy who's been locked up for 25 years. He's an ordained minister. He's taken every conceivable class. He's like mentored 500 young men that have been in there. And this woman will get up and say, you know, I'm here to protest the parole of Kevin Johnson. and, you know, he committed a crime in 1973. They have no idea what it is. They just know he committed a crime and he should not be paroled. And then they stand in front of the parole board and they say to the three members of the parole board, if you let this man out and he reoffends, it will be on your neck and everyone will know that you did that.

41:27And, you know, that's one of the things that drove Alabama's parole rate to 8%. Is that the lowest in the country? Yeah, it was at that time. It's improved a little bit. And I think it's improved in part, you know, because of the work in and around the film. Because, you know, among other things, it was a lawsuit that was sparked by the film, this class action lawsuit in which kinetic justice, Robert Earl Counsel, is the lead plaintiff that really calls out Alabama for having a system of convict leasing. and, you know, because a lot of people don't realize, A, that Alabama and many states like it benefit from, let's say, just in the case of Alabama, $450 million a year in unpaid labor.

42:14And the men inside are forced to provide this labor. And by forced, you know, maybe there's not a man with a bullwhip that's standing over them, but it's in some ways, you know, Every bit is bad because if you refuse to work, then you can be given a disciplinary, which can extend your sentence. You can be placed in solitary, which happens a lot in Alabama. So basically the UN says solitary confinement for more than 15 days is torture. They're putting people in for years at a time. And you could be moved to an even more violent facility than the one that you're in. So it is a coerced, forced labor.

42:59You can't be sick one day. You can't do any of that. But I think what people don't understand is the prisoners in Alabama and some other states, it's not that they're being forced to work in the prison. Maybe reasonable people could say, oh, maybe you should be sweeping the floor in the prison if you're working in the prison. But they also get leased out to the governor's mansion where they clean the floors and they polish the tiles and they do the landscaping. They also get leased out to road crews, construction crews. The state makes money from all of that. They issue invoices, which you can see in the film.

43:34You know, this is for X dollars an hour. And then they pay the men$2 a day to do sanitation work or something like that. And then they send them out to work at McDonald's. They lease them to McDonald's. They lease them to Burger King. They lease them to the Hyundai Parts Company. They lease them to the Budweiser distributorship. so you know you go to the state fair in alabama you know we have this kind of amazing shot of a guy in a corrections uniform who's standing with a little girl and he is reaching into the duck pond and he takes a little duck out a little baby duckling and he hands it and the mother is clapping and is taking photographs and the chilling statistic behind that that alabama does not tracked this, but we tracked it, is that if you're considered safe enough to go out into the community to work at McDonald's or to work at the state fair, you have a statistically lower chance of being paroled than if you're somebody at a higher custody level.

44:39Why? Because you're economically valuable to them? Absolutely. Yeah. And they don't track that statistic. And I think Steve Marshall might be surprised if I said that, or he would say, oh, that doesn't sound right. And then we would say, well, you know, that's a, there's a reason why you don't track that statistic, but it kind of makes sense, right? The people that are out there and people, there are all these anecdotal stories of people saying, well, I was sick and I woke up in the morning and that guy came in and said, you need to go out there and make me some money. Yeah. How, I want to talk a bit about the difference in the way that, so you and I both, or your, your team and my team, both began with a similar kind of question, which was, how can we shed light on the practices of this very strange state?

45:28And I was working in the podcast genre, you're working in the documentary genre, and both of us made very, very different choices. And I wanted to reflect on one of the biggest differences, which is in our Alabama murders, we spend an enormous amount of time on the backstory of our characters our protagonists we really want you to know we're telling the story of these two guys on death row we really want you to know about those guys we talked to their and who they were and what happened you know, et cetera. In your movie documentary, we only learn, we get that kind of backstory in passing, right?

46:16There's a moment, for example, where you're talking about James Sales, one of the principal characters in the documentary, and we learn why he, why was he in one of the highest security prisons in Alabama? Because he got 15 years for breaking into a unoccupied building. it just it happens in like 10 seconds we learn this piece of information and then you move on right now it's incredibly powerful in that little form but i'm curious um why do you do things you that way why why is it that the form that you've chosen um encourages you or directs you away from kind of luxuriating in the backstory the way that we do in the podcast world?

47:03I mean, you know, if you look at Capturing the Freedmen's, there's just an enormous amount of archival material of that family, including going back, you know, 75 years to the, you know, family members that kind of came to this country. And then in the jinx, we have lots of photographs, but we also have moving pictures of Robert Durst when he was a kid. And you get to see the awkwardness. You get to see the feeling that this is a person who didn't particularly fit in. And you see him, you know, in modern day, you see him twitching. Robert Durst has a lot of twitches. And then you see a little, you know, film of him getting up on the diving board as a kid or, you know, somebody doing a movie of him like his mother.

47:52And you see the same kind of twitches. You see the early phases of what has, so I think that stuff is extremely valuable. In this film, I think that we had so many, you know, there was 10 pounds of flour in a two pound bag always. It was always so hard to convey the tapestry of how we got here and try to incorporate everything from the slave labor to the parole, to why they aren't letting people out of the system, how they put people in the system, how people are when they're in the system, and then also try to have a narrative thread that was gonna bring people along. Because we used to have this expression just in the storytelling process.

48:38I always have a blackboard in my office and at the very beginning of this, when we started to see what we had, I wrote this mnemonic device. I said, Smitwit knows. And that stood for, how do we not make the saddest movie in the world that no one ever sees? And it was a real concern because, you know, you're dealing with this very dark material. So we knew it had to have a very compelling narrative. It needed to have, you know, we needed to have a story. And that's like, you know, you got to keep telling yourself what is the story. So you can only have enough room for this archival material. Yeah, you do as much as you can.

49:15And also some of those people, you know, it's kind of a deprived economy. And a lot of these families of people who are incarcerated, just, you know, they don't have like extra room in their house where they have all the photo albums or they have 8mm video or whatever. Yeah, I was thinking, and it's not a criticism at all, I'm marveling about how you made a compelling story where I cared about the protagonists even though I knew so little about them. That's the puzzle. So I came away, so your main character is Stephen Davis. white guy, seems like a very poor family, and we briefly learn what his mom tells us in one sentence why he's in prison.

49:57That's all we get. We don't know when his offense occurred. We don't know what his sentence was. We don't know what his personality was. We don't know anything about him. We barely see him because he's dead 10 minutes in, right? Whatever it is. and yet my concern over him and feelings for him sustained me through the entire movie this is what I'm in a million years I would never have thought I could tell a story like that where my main character is someone the audience knows almost nothing about and who exits and yet I still care an hour later that's what I'm trying to get at how did you do that?

50:38well I mean you know as a young storyteller I think you're going to evolve You know, you're going to learn more about how to tell these stories. And I'm looking forward to that. But I think, you know, a little goes a long way. We do see pictures of him as a child. And I think that's extremely powerful. You know, when you see somebody who you've been trained to believe is going to be a hardened, terrible criminal. But we sort of know really what he was, was a drug addict. and now you see a picture of this young man with his hair shorn and his face pale and wearing a jumpsuit that's exactly what everybody else in the prison wears and he becomes totally homogenized and dehumanized and then you get to see a photograph of him as a child with a smile and just seeing pride on his face or him starting to play Little League or something like that.

51:38And then you're just reminded that, I don't know, I have somebody in my family who was playing Little League and then 10 years later was a drug addict. You know, was playing Little League and 10 years later was an alcoholic and his life was falling apart. So you make a connection to those people that goes beyond whatever their, you know, their crime was. But you're bringing up an interesting point that I've not talked about regarding this film, which was that, you know, there were people who came to test screenings of the film and literally said the following, I'm uncomfortable if I don't know what crime they committed.

52:17So could you have some kind of a device where as soon as I see somebody on screen, there's some kind of a chyron or a little designator on the bottom that says murder one or that says burglary or that says, you know, and I was so instructive to hear somebody say that, right? And of course, you could have the debate with them or you could say, so you're saying that it's okay for a prison guard to beat somebody to death. You're gonna make the evaluation of whether that's reasonable or not based on whether they had a burglary charge or an aggravated burglary charge. And then they always say, well, no, no, no, of course, of course, of course, of course.

52:56But they're revealing that they're propagandized. They're revealing that like nobody, everybody wants safety. Everybody wants their family to be safe. Everybody doesn't, you know, people don't want people to rob their store or whatever. But this idea that, that anything goes, if somebody is a criminal, we're just going to suspend our humanity. We're going to suspend, right? And that's, that's the basic idea of sort of the constitution is you have this absolutely minimal level. you're not supposed to be uh treated to uh cruel and unusual punishment which is already kind of a you know i know it when i see it kind of situation um you know but well if they committed a crime then maybe they should just be locked up forever you know does it make sense for you know there are plenty of countries where the maximum sentence for any crime is 10 years because you say somebody commits a crime when they're 19 years old.

53:54It's a completely different human being 11 years, 12 years later. You know, maybe 10 years is enough to reset that person and try to bring them back into civilization. And yet Alabama has these three strikes laws that are locking people up for life without parole. But this is a really interesting point, which I think is worth dwelling on a little bit, which is that as storytellers, so the urge, when the people in the screening said, I want to know what crime they committed, that was my urge when I watched it. Just, it's a natural human urge to want to know as much as possible about the person whose world you're, and what we don't think about is, what are we using that information for, and how will that kind of information at the margin affect the quality of our moral judgments?

54:48And what you're saying is the value of that incremental information about these characters reduces the quality of our moral judgment. It actually contributes to precisely the phenomenon you are trying to confront, which is people, regardless of who they are, deserve a certain level of respect and decency in the way we treat them, right? In other words, there is an obligation here on the part of the titration and the limitation of information given by the storyteller is a hugely consequential question. It's not just a storytelling question. It's a moral question. It's what do you want people to take home from this story, right, in a profound way?

55:30And like, so you shouldn't now i agree with you i had that impulse and then i thought about it and i was like no i don't need to know it is not relevant what steven davis was in for it's like it shouldn't matter i or it shouldn't matter with robert robert earl robert earl or who is the one who had the rat swimming in the toilet robert robert earl yeah like robert earl's crime i mean robert earl's crime yeah there's a guy and sort of undisputed that there was a guy trying to run him over with the car. And he was 19 and he had a gun, which everybody in Alabama has a gun. And he shot the guy and he prevented him from running him over.

56:10In today's world, you know, that's like... Stand your ground. Yeah. Right. So there's no question that would have been a self-defense case. But for the fact that the police went to incredible lengths to try to tie him into an earlier altercation that night because nobody died in, but they were sort of trying to say, well, he was involved in a robbery, which he actually wasn't involved in, because that enables you to give him a life sentence because you can say it's capital murder. So I guess our, you know, kind of theory going in was maybe we don't need to talk about the crimes at all. And then we realized that there are certain crimes, right?

56:55And Steve Marshall of the world will want you to assume that everybody's in there for this, right? They say, oh, we've already let out all the nonviolent criminals. That sounds like totally reasonable. Well, yeah, I guess people that are nonviolent should be let out, right? But in Alabama, I think in the rest of the country, maybe we have like, maybe in the federal system, we have like four crimes that are considered violent. And in Alabama, it used to be, you know, 10, and then it was 20, and then it was 30, and now it's 44 crimes. And they include entering an unoccupied building. That's considered a violent crime.

57:28So by redefining what a violent crime is, you get more and more and more people and then you get to stand in front of a crowd and say, we've let out all the good ones. But Robert Earle, I guess we concluded that we had to tell something about some of the crimes because we felt like if the audience was gonna really have to fall in love with Robert Earle, which is not hard to do because man's a genius and he's an unbelievable human being,

57:58then we would have to let people know that he's not Jeffrey Dahmer. You know, that he's not somebody who's like a serial killer or a child killer. And the percentage of people that are in prison who are serial killers or child killers, miniscule. But if you're going to give the audience the desire to fall in love with somebody, they're going to hold back their empathy unless you can just give them a little bit of a pass a little bit of a feeling like this is not one of those people that's just going to be released and then immediately go and murder somebody or put somebody in front of a bus we'll be right back

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59:32And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org. Support for the show comes from Public. Lately, the line between investing and gambling has started to blur. But let's be real. You can't build actual wealth on a coin flip. That's why Public takes a different approach. It's the investing platform where you can build a serious long-term portfolio. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, they have it all. But unlike platforms that basically just give you a buy button, Public provides actual context.

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1:00:43All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Sunday is built on a deceptively simple premise. A healthier yard starts beneath the surface. By analyzing your soil and using climate data, Sunday creates a custom yard plan powered by nutrient-dense ingredients instead of traditional synthetic treatments. It's a shift away from guesswork and towards understanding, which historically tends to produce better outcomes. Go to GetSunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That website, again, is GetSunday.com. What's the stage in the process where you're happiest?

1:01:30It's a really good question, and I think it... it's a question you have to ask in a, uh, in a kind of, um, longitudinal way, because you're having the most fun in the very beginning because it's all new. And then you're halfway through it and it's like the dark night of the soul and you think it's a disaster. And then you look back and you think, oh my God, you know, that was the time. And then you get further along and you solve a problem and then that's the time. And then you get to At the end of the whole thing, you look back and that's a difference. So I guess it's the question, you know, if you ask the question over time.

1:02:09Did you have a dark night of the soul moment with this documentary? It lasted like seven years. So you, yeah, by definition. But it wasn't so much, I mean, there were plenty of times we thought, I don't know whether this is going to work. And you go to the best advisors you have and you show material and you just watch and see how people react. and then you do we do these other things like we'll do like a session with a whiteboard and the whole like team of people that are working on the film will say okay what are the five things that that i feel like if i if these aren't in the movie we've made a terrible mistake and then you end up with 35 things on the board and then you think all right well what is this telling me you just try to look at it a million different ways.

1:03:00You know, you kind of keep moving it around. You know, next time you're in deep, dark depression on something, you just call me because if you just, you, I never showed me, if you just called me and said, Malcolm, I have cell phone video footage from inside Alabama, the Alabama prison system. I have a lot of it, but I don't think it's going to work. I would have said, it's going to work. Oh, good. It's like, there's no way for it not to work. This is, I think, the correct answer. it really is a I mean I realize I have been gushing but it is an extraordinary piece of work and I'm both complimenting you but also complimenting the prisoners who found a way to get their story out in the world right they're your collaborators on this and the result is something that is quite unlike any other like i said it solves the documentary problem for me you solved it like there's no you're not reconstructing anything it's there's this great moment in um ibsen you know in in uh master builder and there's this character named hilda who works with this architect and the architect is this very grand fellow that is building big buildings and all that stuff and And then you see her saying at the end of it, her last line is she says, the master builder, my master builder.

1:04:30And a lot of people have commented about that over the years and written about it. That it's really that Hilda at that time in history, like a young, brilliant woman, needed another person who thought that they were a great builder, but really it was her ideas that were coming through. And I do feel that way here, that the men knew what they needed. It's not, I don't want to act like it's working. I mean, Alabama is still, this is still an urgent problem. Alabama is still killing people in its custody all the time. I think people right now are dying at the rate of around one a day. And that's just in one system.

1:05:14We have 2 million people incarcerated around the country. but I do get the feeling that you know while we're walking around thinking we're making a film the men inside are driven by their own brilliance their own survival instinct are saying we need to get this material in front of the public we're not a position to do it let's see if this collaboration can work and that I think is the thing I feel the most grateful for is that we were able to deliver that. And the men in the film have seen the film, you know, because we showed it to them on cell phones. And, um, and when we were done, I think they were very emotional seeing it.

1:05:57I think we, you know, we spent so much time and showed it to them, talked to them about what we were making because it's such a responsibility to say, you know, Hey, you guys, you've been running a nonviolent organized protest movement that includes work stoppages and hunger strikes. and somehow we're going to characterize that and we're going to put that on television or we're going to put that in movie theaters. But it's really their story. So you have to be in constant dialogue with them about what that is, including now, telling them what we're doing and what we're thinking and trying to, we created this sort of whistleblower defense committee of really smart lawyers because we knew that these men have been retaliated against time after time after time.

1:06:42And so they jump in and they'll go and do wellness checks on the men. You're in a relationship with them forever. You know, it's a little different, right? Because in your, I mean, maybe you'll choose to go and have coffee with Steve Marshall once a week if you really enjoy his company. But, you know, most of the people that are in your film are kind of already, you know, you're not going back to Alabama much and you're not going to go talk to the people that are in the story. But these guys are like, they're in my life happily. I feel very lucky that they're in my life, in Charlotte's life. Yeah.

1:07:14Yeah. Andrew, we are out of time. I want to thank you very much, both for coming to On Air Fest and singing with me and also for the movie, which has, you know, as the best art does, has left America a little better off than it was before. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

1:07:45Revisionist History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Ben Didaf Hafrey, and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Shikurji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Mixing and mastering by Jake Gorski. I'm Malcolm Glaube.

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