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24:46The Dick Cavett Show So, it's 1970 Lester Maddox gets a call from Dick Cavett Come on our show He flies to New York And who tunes in that night? Randy Newman Ladies and gentlemen Dick Cavett Dick Cavett is a year into his legendary late-night show on ABC, up against Johnny Carson's Tonight Show. Cavett's show was like a highlight reel of the 1970s. He did the greatest-ever interview with Jimi Hendrix. Groucho Marx was a regular. So was Muhammad Ali. He once had Salvador Dali on the same show as the legendary pitching great Satchel Paige. The famous debate between Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer? That was on Dick Cavett.

25:36Listen, we have a very good show tonight, and I want to move right into it. an excellent show, I think. I don't know. How do I know? I haven't seen it. It might be a big dud. Why do people say that at the beginning of a show? Cavett looks like Paul Newman's baby brother. No more than 5 '6", impish, big polka-dotted tie. His first guest is a woman named Alice Gray, an entomologist from the American Museum of Natural History. Cat eyeglasses, hair in a bun, who brings a box full of cockroaches to the set. What can we do about them? What can we learn about them? Are they our friends? No, they're not exactly our friends, but they're certainly our companions in all our doings.

26:19And I'm rather fond of them. They have a distinguished lineage. How many of us could meet our ancestors of 300 million years ago and recognize them? The cockroaches can. They go back that far? They go back that far. That's older than the dinosaurs. Twice as old as the dinosaurs, all the way back to the coal age. They were already recognizably cockroaches. That's amazing. It's always the people you don't like who are the last to leave, isn't it? That's true. They'll be here long after we have quitted this earth, I'm sure. Kavit does a good ten minutes on cockroaches. Are these your cockroaches or some of ours?

26:55The cockroach lady finally leaves the stage, and then... My next guest tonight is Governor Lester Maddox. Out comes Maddox, the gleaming bald head, the black suit Governor Maddox, I still call you governor, don't I? Call me most anything you want to, everybody else does Keep yourself, Dick Have you ever followed Bugs before? Yes, a few moments ago on your program site That's the only time That's the only time? God, I love Dick Cavett They shake hands, they take their seats Rust-colored swivel loungers atop a gray shag carpet Cavett shows the audience a photograph of Maddox holding his axe handle outside the Pick Rick restaurant, and Maddox then corrects him and says, no, it's not an axe handle, it's a pick handle, and goes off on one of his long, endless digressions about the meaning of the pick Rick.

27:48The pick denotes hard work And we had in the restaurant Some of these pick handles Two kegs of them by a big old fireplace Where we burned hickory wood There were six of them in each of the kegs And they were dark red because That looked something similar To a chicken leg a pick handle does Not like the axe handle that the news media Talks about And Cavett, who must be wondering What on earth, simply says Well I've certainly learned a lot Cavett brings on his next guest, the football player Jim Brown, then one of the most famous professional black athletes in the country. Brown settles down next to Maddox, who is literally half his size, and gives him a polite smile.

28:32And Cavett says to the two of them, Do you feel separate but equal?

28:39I realize that's 1960s civil rights humor, but I still think it's hilarious. Maddox turns to Brown and says, I thought you was the singer. He thought Jim Brown was James Brown. He then volunteers his personal definition of what being a segregationist really means. A segregationist is a person that loves his race enough or other races enough, has enough of racial pride and integrity to want to preserve them. And I think a racist is one that doesn't care enough for his race or another race to where they don't care whether they're amalgamated or destroyed or not. Amalgamated? Good Lord.

29:19Now think about this for a moment. Maddox is no longer governor. Georgia has come to its senses and elected nice, safe, modern, non-racist Jimmy Carter. Maddox is a footnote. So what point is there in having him on a mainstream talk show like Dick Cavett? The magazine where I work, The New Yorker, had a case like this recently. Donald Trump's Svengali Steve Bannon was invited to speak at the magazine's annual literary festival. And everyone flipped out. The New Yorker's writers took to Twitter. A bunch of high-profile celebrity invitees to the festival dropped out. And the argument that was made about Bannon is an argument that could as easily had been applied to Maddox years ago.

29:59What's the point of giving someone like that a platform? I mean, what could possibly be learned from listening to them talk? And sure enough, what happens over the course of the next hour of The Dick Cavett Show? Exactly what you would think. I think what we're really talking about in this country is economic development of black people. At one point, Jim Brown says something thoughtful and reasonable, that he thinks the priority for black people ought to be economic development. And Maddox jumps on him. Economic development of all people. Well, we're talking about underprivileged people. How come you don't want to do it for black people?

30:35How come you don't want to do it for white people? I'll tell you why. Huh? I'll tell you why. How come you want to do it for everybody? How come you always black people? Why don't you talk about all people? Can I give you an answer? I think we understand the question. Can I give you an answer? Do you mind? Go ahead. If you're ready, I'll give you time. Okay, Governor. What I'm really saying is that there are some people that have suffered in this country, poor people generally, but let's say that we have various ethnic groups in this country that have attained a certain kind of equality. Black people are more or less, along with the Indians, on the last rung of the ladder.

31:06Can I finish, Governor? Boy. Can I finish? Okay, do you mind? Now, what I'm really saying is that I feel that the way to bring about equality of black people in the system is through economic... What about equality of white people? I'm going to interrupt you every time you keep calling black people. What about equality of all people? If you interrupt me, Governor, I can't talk to you. Then Maddox starts going on and on about all the things he's done for black people in the state of Georgia. and Jim Brown turns to him with genuine curiosity and asks if he's had any blowback from white bigots. Did you have any problems from the bigots in the South?

31:40Have any problems with us? From the white bigots because you did so much for the black man. Which is kind of a great question. Because if Maddox has, in fact, been this great friend of black people, then you'd think he would have angered all the hardcore segregationists and everyone else who was opposed to the civil rights movement, right? Mr. Brown asked you, Governor Maddox, if you'd had any trouble from your white admirers for the fact that you have done some things. He didn't say admirers, sir. No, he said bigots. Well, why didn't you say it like he said it? You have me there. Why didn't you say it?

32:12Now, see that what I'm talking about, Dick? I do see it, yes. You take words, you twist them around, and you mislead the people in the audience and all. You ought to start being honest, all of you, with your words and what you're saying to people. You said admirers, and he said bigots. A lot of difference, isn't it? The last half of the show is just Maddox getting more and more agitated, Dick Cavett trying to calm him down, and Jim Brown looking over at Maddox like he's a misbehaving child. Maddox asks Cavett to apologize. Cavett refuses. The audience makes astonished noises. Maddox stands up and starts to walk off the stage.

32:45Cavett says, come on, sit down. Maddox says, I'll sit down when you apologize. So Cavett says... If I called any of your admirers bigots who are not bigots, I apologize. This is insane. What was Dick Cavett thinking inviting this guy in his show? Why don't you apologize to people of Georgia, those friends of mine, for calling them bigots? I think I may. Either you do it, I'm going to leave now, Dick. Wait a minute. Please don't leave. Well, you apologize to people of Georgia. And he owes them an apology, too. the only biggest... Maddox gives Cavett an ultimatum. One minute to take it back or he'll walk out for good.

33:28At which point, Jim Brown pipes up, wait, what about me? How much time do I have? It's a circus. I would say that I phrased the question in a way that was not exactly accurate in the sense that he did say bigots. Have any white bigots been upset because you have done certain things for the blacks? You came back and said my admires and you haven't apologized yet and you got 15 seconds. All right, now let me use those 15 seconds. I apologize for suggesting that a bigot would be the way of characterizing all of your admirers. Wait a minute, wait a minute. There's more time. And Lester Maddox storms off the set.

34:12Oh, oh, and I haven't even mentioned that the writer Truman Capote then shows up. He's then at the height of his celebrity, Tiny, fastidious, wearing purple-tinted round sunglasses. You know, curiously enough, I had a cousin who lived in Atlanta that I went to visit and who took me to this restaurant that he ran that was called Pick a Reb or something like that. Well, it was called Pick a Reb, Nick a Reb, something here. And he was always at the door with guns, you know, to keep any sort of Negroes out of the restaurant. But I went there with this cousin of mine because it was near the campus, the college campus.

34:54And it wasn't bad, but it wasn't finger-licking good.

35:03The whole thing is so bananas that Cavett feels the need to apologize to his audience. I'm sorry the governor has left. I went outside just during the break, and he's out there with his hat and coat on, and I asked him if he would please come back and use the last minutes to say whatever he would like to say. because he felt that, I guess, that he was insulted. I did not mean to insult him at that moment. I have to say this, and I hope I don't feel, it doesn't come off sounding, I don't know what, but I found him, in spite of the fact that I would probably despise his feelings about segregation if I were actually clear on what they are, a likable man.

35:44Would anyone go along with this? Would you agree? No. The audience is not having it. Why is it? What? I'm not backing down. Shut up. I'll tell you when I'm backing down. We'll be back after this. It was a farce. What was the point? Except to allow a segregationist to play the victim. What good is there in giving someone like that a platform? Except Randy Newman was watching, whose imagination has a mind of its own.

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38:44Whether you're gearing up for fall events or simply planning ahead for the season, 4imprint helps your brand show up, stay useful, and make connections that last. Explore the possibilities at 4imprint.com. 4imprint for certain. So were you a regular Dick Cavett watcher in those years? Not that I recall. I was, but I would watch, you know, if I was up, I'd watch it. Yeah. And I think I was usually up in those days. And stereotypically, you are the Dick Cavett audience, right? I am, yeah. It seemed like half an hour, you know, where they were just yelling and yelling and yelling. He was, yeah. He was so alien that I felt sorry for him.

39:33He didn't dismiss that whole exchange or shrug or change the channel. he reacted to it. He imagines what a supporter of Lester Maddox would think watching Lester Maddox storm off the stage. Now, Dick, I'm going to give you one minute to apologize for people. You call Bigger, St. George, I'm going to leave your show. Now you do whatever you want to about it. He gives that imaginary supporter a name, Johnny Cutler, a home, Birmingham, Alabama, a job, steelworker. He imagines Johnny Cutler coming home one night, drunk, gazing at his sleeping wife. And then he imagines him turning on the television.

40:11Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show With some smart-ass New York Jew And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too Well, it may be... Oh, Lester Maddox on a TV show. Smart-ass New York Jew, that's good. and the audience laughs at Lister Maddox too. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah, not really, it's going to clicka, clicka, clicka. That became the first song on Good Old Boys. It's called Rednecks. When I first heard that, I didn't know Lister Maddox was. Yeah. I didn't even know that it was, but that idea of the Southerner going to New York and sitting down.

40:56And thinking Dick Cavett is Jewish too. Yeah, which is fantastic. Well, he may be a fool, but he's awful. And if they think they're better than him, they're wrong So when I came to this park, I took some... You want to sing along, don't you? It's like Sail Away all over again. This is where I made this song

41:23But then comes this. We talk real funny down here We drank too much and we laughed too loud We're too dumb to make it in our northern town We're keeping niggers down It's 1970. The South is in upheaval. Lester Maddox has just been humiliated by some smart-ass New York Jew. What do you think Johnny Cutler's going to say? College men are a very serious. When ain't dumb, come out dumb too. Hustling around Atlanta in the alligator shoes. Getting drunk every weekend at the barbecues. And keeping the niggas down. How did people respond to that song at the time? I played it in Lafayette, Louisiana. And they loved it.

42:28I got a letter, the only one I ever got, on this song from somebody. And he said, dear sir, I was in the audience in Lafayette when you played this song. He's a black kid. And he said, I don't know where you're coming from, but there I was, and I was enjoying the concert up to then. and all of a sudden I'm sitting in the middle of 1 ,500 white guys yelling, rednecks, we're rednecks, you know. And he said it made him very uncomfortable and he wanted to let me know. We're rednecks, we're rednecks And we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground We're rednecks Southern audiences started yelling for it So they could sing along with the chorus.

43:24Did it become, was it taken over by, didn't become a kind of southern anthem for a certain kind of, or did? When I thought that that was happening, I stopped playing it, you know, in the south. He had to stop singing it. Many radio stations wouldn't play it. And you definitely wouldn't hear that song on the radio today. It even feels strange to play it here. We've become, appropriately, uncomfortable with the N-word in almost any context. You can only play Rednecks now if you explain where it came from and who Johnny Cutler was. But you can't not play it just because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

44:05Because Johnny Cutler in Birmingham, Alabama in 1970 absolutely wanted to keep the niggers down. And we can't gloss over that fact if we're being honest. Oh, and by the way, Johnny Cutler wasn't done. Down here we're too ignorant to realize That the north is set the nigger free He then names every slum in every northern city. Put in a cage in Harlem and New York City It's free to be put in a cage in the south side of Chicago and the west side It's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis And they put him in a cage in Huffington, Cleveland And they put them in a cage in Philmont San Francisco And they put them in a cage in Lenox Hill in Boston He says to all those smug northerners, when you drive with your windows up and your doors locked through the projects of your own inner cities, are you still sure you're better than me?

45:11You have to play that too. Because if you're going to be honest about who Lester Maddox really was, You have to be honest about his critics, too. Did you ever hear from Lester Maddox? He sent me an axe handle. He didn't? Really? Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. From his store. He sold axe handles. Yeah, pick handles. Lester Maddox listened to a song about racial hatred, and he sent the man who wrote it a pick handle as a token of his gratitude.

45:55Revisionist History is produced by Mia LaBelle and Jacob Smith with Camille Baptista. Our editor is Julia Barton. Flan Williams is our engineer. Fact-checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Guerra. Special thanks to Carly Migliore, Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor, Maya Koenig and Jacob Weisberg. Revisionist History is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.

46:26By the way, there's a great essay on this subject in the 2014 book, Let the Devil Speak, by Stephen Hart. Hart writes that, in Sail Away, Randy Newman showed one of America's greatest lies being crafted. In his next album, Newman would show how the lie soaked into America's bones.

46:51Comic board, little one. Yeah.

46:59Daddy, what, you can't... I think this is sort of happy. I mean, certainly the voices make it that way. You can't do it. It's lost all of its... Sail away.

47:14Sail away. I like that buckwheat cake. Like it's some kind of delicacy you're getting at this artisanal bakery.

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