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Revisionist History: Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)
Podcast Overview Host: Malcolm Gladwell Theme: The podcast explores overlooked and misunderstood aspects of history, events, people, ideas, and pop culture. Episode Focus: The dispute over the Disney film "Zootopia" and claims that its story was stolen from screenwriter Gary Goldman.
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Episode Summary In this episode, Malcolm Gladwell delves into the bizarre story of Gary Goldman, a screenwriter who alleges that Disney's "Zootopia" is based on his ideas and concepts for an animated film he pitched years prior. The episode sets the stage for a detailed examination over two parts, exploring the origins of Goldman's idea, the subsequent legal battles, and the implications of these claims.
Key Themes and Arguments
- Goldman's Claim:
- Goldman asserts that Disney's "Zootopia" borrowed heavily from his original concept, including shared phrases and thematic elements.
- He pitched a project titled "Looney," which featured a world where animals could be anything they want, akin to the premise in "Zootopia."
- Creative Process:
- Goldman shares insights into the development of his idea for "Zootopia," describing how he created a rich narrative world aimed at entertaining children while addressing deeper truths about societal limitations.
- Legal Battle:
- After the release of "Zootopia," Goldman filed a lawsuit against Disney, claiming copyright infringement. The legal proceedings lasted seven years but ultimately ended unfavorably for Goldman, as courts ruled the similarities did not constitute infringement.
- The Sequel:
- The discussion turns to "Zootopia 2," which features a character named Gary the Snake, leading Goldman to speculate about whether the film serves as an indirect commentary on his lawsuit.
Pivotal Moments
- Origins of the Idea:
- Goldman reminisces about his initial excitement in developing the "Zootopia" concept around the year 2000, primarily inspired by his children.
- His distinct naming of the world as "Zootopia" and its core narrative elements mirror the final Disney production.
- Character Similarity:
- Goldman draws parallels between his animated characters and those in "Zootopia," highlighting striking similarities, such as the transformation of his character Roscoe into Nick Wilde.
- Legal Insights:
- Gladwell discusses the challenges screenwriters face in asserting copyright claims against large studios, often resulting in overwhelming odds stacked against them.
- Cultural Reflection:
- The episode also touches on broader themes of intellectual property and creativity within the film industry, questioning the ethics of idea appropriation.
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Key Takeaways
- Cognitive Dissonance: The episode invites listeners to consider the implications of creativity and ownership in Hollywood, particularly in the context of large corporations like Disney.
- Allegory of Intellectual Property: "Zootopia 2" presents a narrative that can be interpreted as a reflection of Goldman's legal struggle, raising questions about how personal and professional grievances can be woven into mainstream media.
- Parental Insights: Gladwell's personal experience of taking his daughter to the movies provides a relatable entry point for listeners, emphasizing the emotional connection to storytelling.
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Conclusion This episode of *Revisionist History* sets the stage for a deeper exploration of the intersection of creativity, legal battles, and personal narratives within the entertainment industry. The peculiar case of Gary Goldman against Disney raises important questions about the nature of storytelling and the rights of creators in a highly competitive space.
*Stay tuned for Part Two, where the discussion will continue to unravel the complexities and theories surrounding "Zootopia 2."*
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Call That Started It All
1:02 to 2:14
Malcolm recounts receiving a call from Angus Fletcher about an intriguing story.
“The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard.”
Introducing Gary Goldman and His Background
2:14 to 4:06
Malcolm introduces Gary Goldman, sharing his impressive screenwriting background.
“If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you will know the name Angus Fletcher.”
The Origins of Zootopia
4:06 to 6:04
Gary discusses how he came up with the idea for Zootopia and its initial title.
“and who have to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance of predators.”
Pitching the Concept to Disney
6:04 to 8:10
Gary explains the process of pitching his Zootopia concept to Disney executives.
“And my sons were, I don't know, four and six.”
The Release of Zootopia and Legal Battles
8:10 to 9:30
The narrative shifts to the release of Zootopia, leading to a legal case for copyright infringement.
“Well, because what you're really trying to do with a story is not just create a plot.”
The Challenges of Copyright Infringement Cases
9:30 to 12:54
Malcolm discusses the difficulties of winning copyright infringement cases against studios.
“That's really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice.”
Teasing the Zootopia Sequel and Theories
12:54 to 14:01
Malcolm hints at the sequel to Zootopia and the theories surrounding it.
“of whether Disney actually used Goldman's pitch.”
Theories About Zootopia 2
14:01 to 14:34
Discussion on various theories surrounding the sequel to Zootopia.
“Why do you think I dragged my daughter to see Zootopia 2?”
Gary the Snake: A Character Analysis
14:52 to 21:01
Exploring the character of Gary the Snake and its implications.
“I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies.”
Intellectual Property in Zootopia 2
21:01 to 24:24
Examining the theme of intellectual property theft in the sequel.
“Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in movies all the time.”
Show all 15 chapters
Disney's Allegory and Legal Implications
24:24 to 28:00
Discussing the potential allegory in Zootopia 2 and its legal ramifications.
“So anyway, that was the point where my mind imploded and I knew we had to call Malcolm.”
Disney's Graciousness and Storytelling
28:00 to 28:39
Exploration of Disney's actions and the narrative around Zootopia.
“as an act of graciousness on Disney's part.”
Moguls and Unspoken Tensions
28:40 to 29:39
Discussion on Hollywood moguls' reluctance to discuss Zootopia's legal issues.
“And there is a version of the story where he is the hero, the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never publicly acknowledge their courageous act.”
Attempts to Uncover Zootopia Secrets
29:40 to 30:23
Host's efforts to reach out to industry figures for insights on Zootopia 2.
“but I would guess there's a little bitterness because people don't lose wealth, right?”
Anticipation for the Bold Theory
30:24 to 30:55
Teaser for part two, hinting at intriguing revelations about Disney.
“never should have gotten past Disney legal.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:06Malcolm Gladwell:Pushkin.
0:13Malcolm Gladwell:On a recent snowy day, I took my four-and-a-half-year-old to a movie theater on Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was only her second time ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded. We were there to see Disney's Zootopia 2, a film that is now the highest-grossing animated movie of all time. We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours. And at the end, she turned to me and said, Thank you, Daddy. And I said to her, Oh, this wasn't for you. This was for me. I'm on assignment.
0:58Malcolm Gladwell:My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard. It makes no sense. It invites all manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two episodes to unravel it. And even then, your mind will be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly feel compelled to seize Utopia 2 for yourself. And, if you've already seen it, to grab any one of your available children and see it again, and to whisper under your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening.
1:36Malcolm Gladwell:WTF.
1:41Malcolm Gladwell:All of this started when we got a call from Angus Fletcher, saying a friend of his needed to speak to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story to tell, a story with so many layers, the friend said, that there was no way to do it justice in a single episode. to minimum. For future reference, if you need to get my attention, this is the way to do it. All right. Can you hear me? There you are. Gary, Angus, the gang is back together. Right away, I hopped on a Zoom with the two of them.
2:13Gary Goldman:If you want, I mean, I can tell you how the story started, and then Gary, you want to, do you want to? So, okay. All right, jump in.
2:20Malcolm Gladwell:If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus. I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured on more revisionist history episodes than anyone else. Our three-part rewrite of The Little Mermaid, In Defense of Paw Patrol, and, and this is relevant to the story I'm about to tell you, we did a series of episodes a few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to the screen. And Angus came on to talk about an absolutely banana sci-fi project he worked on with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter, Gary Goldman.
3:06Malcolm Gladwell:And during that episode, I concluded that not only is Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius too. Anyway, back to the matter at hand. So basically, I get a phone call from Gary,
3:19Gary Goldman:and Gary and I are old friends. We've worked together on a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary is one of the most famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that.
3:29Malcolm Gladwell:Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent some time working in a hospital in Israel during the Yom Kippur War, ended up in Hollywood, and has worked with everyone, Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron, Ridley Scott, David Fincher, Steven Spielberg.
3:49Gary Goldman:So you're going to call me up and he goes, Angus, have you seen Disney's latest movie?
3:54Malcolm Gladwell:Here Angus is referring to the first Zootopia film, which came out in 2016, featuring a rabbit named Judy Hopps and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live in a world inhabited entirely by animals and who have to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance of predators. It's very good. Zootopia, a gleaming city. Where animals of all breeds, predator and prey alike, live together in peace and harmony. Zootopia did very well. It grossed a zillion dollars and won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all this success closely.
4:35Gary Goldman:And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family event. I can send you the pictures of us drinking champagne when Zootopia won the Academy Award. I mean, this is our lost daughter who has done great.
4:47Malcolm Gladwell:Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's what he told Angus.
4:52Gary Goldman:And so he tells me the story of how he goes to Disney, how he pitched them this idea, how he wrote it down on a physical document, which he gave to Disney. And he goes, I think they might have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document? And Gary goes to me, OK, well, in my pitch, it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And in Disney's movie, it says, quote, you want to be an elephant when you grow up, you can be an elephant. And in Gary's pitch, it says this is going to take place in a land where, quote, an animal can be whatever it wants to be.
5:30Gary Goldman:And in Disney's movie, it says this is going to take place in a land where, quote, anybody can be anything. And then I say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia. And amazingly, in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia.
5:49Malcolm Gladwell:Wait, OK, so there's so many things to to to to to to pick up on. Gary, take me back to the beginning about the origins of this idea of a movie called Zootopia. What period of time are we talking about here? 2000. 2000. Yeah.
6:08Gary Goldman:I have two sons.
6:09Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
6:09Gary Goldman:And my sons were, I don't know, four and six. And, you know, at that time you start thinking about, oh, what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to? um and um so i came up in under interesting very specific circumstances with the idea for zootopia and i'll tell you when i came up with the word zootopia i was elated and i ran into my house and i ran upstairs and i talked to my wife i said you're not going to believe i've got the most incredible title i've got the most incredible idea it's called zootopia you know i don't know i don't think it's such a great idea i said i said trust me trust me it's a really it's a really good name.
6:49In fact, we can't say this word in front of the kids.
6:55Gary Goldman:Because if we say this word in front of the kids, they're going to go to school. And a lot of their, the parents of these kids are in show business. And then the word is going to get out. And it's very hard to protect a title.
7:07Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
7:07Gary Goldman:So we just have to keep it secret. Yeah, we had to keep it secret.
7:16Malcolm Gladwell:Fast forward nine years. Goldman's doing a project with the comic book legend Stan Lee for Disney. And he goes to the Disney exec he's working with, and he says, I have this idea. Gives them an eight-page outline of the concept. It's called Looney. It's about an animator who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zootopia world. Roscoe, the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious. His sidekick Mimi, the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic. Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever had for a movie. And Angus agrees.
7:54Gary Goldman:So first of all, I just want to point out that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of all time, telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia. That should give you some indication. And, you know, Gary is legitimately a story genius. Why is Zootopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to do with a story is not just create a plot. You're trying to create a world. That's why Star Wars is so brilliant. Because the movie, great. But really what you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and Leia and all that kind of stuff.
8:33Gary Goldman:And Zootopia is exactly the same thing. Zootopia is a mythic universe. when Gary first told me this, he sent me a, a basically a Bible, which went on for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of slides explaining to me all the sort of like complex mythography behind Zootopia. So I'm not going to pretend to be able to kind of expound that to you here. It was like having a conversation with like Joseph Campbell or something. But basically the point is, is that you have an entire universe in which these animals are there to expose the lie that you can be whatever it is that you want to be. I mean, that's basically the twist, is that we are all told these fables in America growing up, which is you can be whatever you want to be.
9:16Gary Goldman:Yeah.
9:17Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
9:18Gary Goldman:Gary? Yeah. Well, the idea here is all of us tell our kids pretty much, or you have to decide whether not to tell your kids, you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up. And there's enormous pressure to say it, even though we know as adults, that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to send your kids out into the world knowing nothing except you can be whatever you want to be, and then you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try, and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared for it? On the other hand, if you don't teach your kids that, they're going to be totally out-competed.
9:54Gary Goldman:by all the other kids in the class who have been told they can be whatever they want to be. So I wanted to basically surround these cliches of conventional wisdom with ridiculous, zany, cautionary tales about animals who are told they can be whatever they want to be and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter in life.
10:18Malcolm Gladwell:The world where all this took place was Zootopia. Gary takes his idea to the executive he's working with at Disney. The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this is interesting. Should I give it to the folks over to animation? I said, submit it.
10:34Gary Goldman:He said, okay. And I got my papers together and I put it in the portfolio and I handed it to him. And then I hear from my agent, they passed. That's all. They passed.
10:46Malcolm Gladwell:Six years go by and then one day, Gary gets a call from one of his sons.
10:52Gary Goldman:Both of my sons are in the car together. They say, Dad, we're driving down the freeway and we see a billboard. And you're not going to believe it, but it has your loony characters on it. I said, my loony characters? What are you talking about? He says, yeah, you know, it's a giant billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said, what's the name of the movie? And he says, Zootopia. And he'd never heard the word Zootopia. He called me up to tell me that he'd seen my loony characters.
11:29Gary Goldman:So, you know, I was flabbergasted, obviously.
11:34Malcolm Gladwell:The Goldman's go and see Zootopia at the Grove in Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, has been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox. and his optimistic, curvaceous squirrel Mimi has become the optimistic, curvaceous rabbit, Judy Hopps. Goldman gets one of the biggest and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emanuel, to represent him. Quinn Emanuel does not usually take suits like this, but for Gary, they make an exception. That's how compelling his case seems. So Quinn Emanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement.
12:16Malcolm Gladwell:The case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is anyone at Disney is deposed. What's Disney's defense? Is it they never saw it? Yes, never saw it. So they're claiming this is a series of incredible coincidences.
12:30Gary Goldman:That's right. Yeah, they call it independent courage. Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day. Yeah.
12:38Malcolm Gladwell:And what happens? Goldman loses. He appeals, loses again. He switches to state court, loses. the courts find that the similarities between Gary's idea and Zootopia didn't look like copyright infringement. And the case is dismissed before the courts ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used Goldman's pitch. So the Goldmans give up the fight. Yeah. Now, there are a million things to say here. The first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible, under current case law, for a writer to win a case like this against a studio.
Read the full transcript
13:21Malcolm Gladwell:In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers looked at over 50 copyright infringement cases writers brought against Hollywood Studios, and in every case, the plaintiff lost. The law basically says you have to show that your work was copied word for word. And of course, you can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word. I could go on and on about this, but I won't. Because what matters is what happens next.
13:51Gary Goldman:Then Gary calls me up a few months ago and he says, Angus, have you seen the sequel to Zootopia? And I said, no, Gary, I have not. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia?
14:03Malcolm Gladwell:Exactly. That's the question. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia? Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged my daughter to see Zootopia 2? because I have a theory. Gary Goldman has a theory. The team of movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case have a theory. You will have a theory, too, once you finish listening. And why does everyone have a theory? Because there is absolutely something weird going on with Zootopia 2 that requires a theory. That's after the break.
14:51At what point do you hear that there's a sequel in the works?
14:57Gary Goldman:I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies. I mean, they were making, beginning to make the sequel while we were still involved in the lawsuit.
15:05Malcolm Gladwell:We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up.
15:11Gary Goldman:Oh, it's really interesting because the main character in the sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake.
15:19Malcolm Gladwell:The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.
15:25Gary Goldman:And I thought, well, that's obviously they're just planning to, you know, don't make a character a snake unless you're planning to.
15:33Malcolm Gladwell:So your immediate thought when you heard of this character, Gary the Snake, is that it was an attack on me.
15:38Gary Goldman:It's a personal attack on me.
15:41Malcolm Gladwell:Now, of course, this could just be a coincidence. Gary is a common name. There are lots of Garys in the world, so maybe it makes sense there should be lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially what the Zootopia 2 screenwriter said in a publicity interview with the New York Times. He's named Gary because I think Gary is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garys of the world. But multiple times over the years, when I've been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary. But needless to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of legal hell, do not see things this way. Who gets the angriest among all the Goldmans?
16:22Malcolm Gladwell:Who gets the angriest?
16:23Gary Goldman:Oh, well, my younger son, I can't show you, but I'm in my office and there's a door that has a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door in anger after one of these rulings.
16:35Malcolm Gladwell:the repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest son. Do you know what this, the psychological principle here is called transactive memory. You know how in families, we store our memories in other members of our family. That's why the family unit is so powerful. But you guys have transactive anger. So you hear about this and you think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do you see, when did you go see Zootopia II in the theater?
17:03Gary Goldman:Oh, the day before it opened. I mean, we tried to sneak, you know, we tried to get tickets to screening. They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere? Oh, no, no, they don't talk to me. I mean, I'm, no, no, no, no, I didn't ask them. We're not in touch.
17:16Malcolm Gladwell:The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife, Judy, their two grown sons, gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California, just east of San Francisco.
17:26Gary Goldman:So we go there, we're sitting, and we watch as this story unfolds. And my wife says, he looks like you. I said, what are you talking about? the snake looks like me? She says, yeah, don't you see? She's an artist. And so she says, yeah, I can see how that, I think they, you know, in any case, she thinks Gary the snake looks like me.
17:43Malcolm Gladwell:Now, does Gary the snake really look like Gary Goldman? Or is this just the Goldman's being paranoid? Well, let me describe Gary Goldman. He's 72. He has large, expressive eyes, a self-effacing, understated manner. I mean, you've heard him speak. Match that voice to your mental image of your kindly uncle. And what is Gary DeSnake? Weirdly, a nice snake, a sweetheart snake. Large, expressive eyes, a self-effacing, understated manner. Middle-aged, with one fang instead of two. Conceptually defanged, as the middle-aged so often are. Oh, Gary.
18:25Gary Goldman:Gary DeSnake. And your last name? DeSnake. Everything is going to be okay. Hey.
18:32Malcolm Gladwell:Gary says that after the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him to say, Gary, the snake looks just like you. And when I went to see Zootopia 2 with my daughter, right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought as well. Good Lord, it's the same guy. Oh, so, well, Gary doesn't have bad teeth.
18:56Gary Goldman:So the fang was a metaphor, But yeah, so Gary the Snake is sweet. His eyebrows kind of go up a little bit. His eyes kind of drew a little bit.
19:12Malcolm Gladwell:I called up Goldman's lawyer, Deborah Drews. I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous.
19:19Gary Goldman:The snake kind of looks Jewish.
19:21Malcolm Gladwell:Yes, the snake looks Jewish.
19:23Gary Goldman:Yeah. 100%. Okay. I mean, I'm Jewish, so no. Anyway, yes, I did think the snake looked Jewish. And I thought the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary Goldman's a sweet, he's a sweet guy. So every once in a while, that just that Southern charm. And there's a little, you know, like when you're playing a stringed instrument and you bend the string and it gives you a little twang. That's Gary, you know. charming, sweet. So yeah, that was Gary the Snake. I mean, it was clear to me. And I think it probably is clear to the people who worked on both films, just saying.
20:13Malcolm Gladwell:Oh, by the way, a good chunk of the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called Marsh Market. And I'm quoting now from a review of the movie. Marsh Market could well be the Zootopia equivalent of New Orleans. Everybody thinks this. Here's the LA Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of Zootopia before the movie came out.
20:37Gary Goldman:You mentioned Marsh Market, and I have to say, as a longtime New Orleanian, I loved seeing a Zootopia version of a bayou.
20:46Malcolm Gladwell:Why does all this matter? Because Gary Goldman is from New Orleans and because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still, I know what you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into scandal. That's after the break.
21:19Malcolm Gladwell:Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels, the creator of Saturday Night Live. The villain of Ian Fleming's James Bond thriller Goldfinger, rumor has it, was based on the modernist architect Erno Goldfinger, who Fleming was feuding with at the time because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down the road from him. So what? If the Walt Disney Company wants to make a movie about a middle-aged Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans, that's not a crime. But now we get to the heart of the issue, Which is, what is Zootopia 2 really about?
22:03Malcolm Gladwell:Well, it's a movie about intellectual property. Zootopia exists because of incredibly sophisticated weather walls that make it possible for animals from all over the world to live in one place. The walls were invented by Agnes de Snake, Gary's great-grandmother, who wanted to build a world where all animals could live in harmony. But her patent was stolen by the evil lynxes who run Zootopia, Big, chubby, evil lynxes. Literally corporate fat cats. Listen to how Pawpert Lynxley describes his family's scheme. But when my great-grandfather saw what her idea could be worth,
22:45Malcolm Gladwell:he plotted to steal her plans for himself. The lynxes then cast all the reptiles out of Zootopia to keep their theft secret. And the plot of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary the Snake to get the patent back, restore the Snake family's good name, and bring reptiles back into the city of Zootopia. The whole plot of Zootopia 2, the entire movie, is about repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property.
23:20Gary Goldman:Snakes aren't the bad guys. I have to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home. So, to recap.
23:33Malcolm Gladwell:Just as the Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven-year legal battle in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat cats at the Walt Disney Company, the Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia in which the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary whose family invented Zootopia and had their idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats. This is why Gary Goldman called Angus Fletcher and why Angus Fletcher called me.
24:13Gary Goldman:And so Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia 1, but it's an allegory that's created by Disney. So anyway, that was the point where my mind imploded and I knew we had to call Malcolm.
24:29Malcolm Gladwell:This is why I love Angus. Because whenever his mind implodes, he thinks of me. The movie's over. The Goldman's walkout. Right. And what do you guys do? Do you guys go out to dinner and discuss? What do you do? How do you download all this information?
24:45Gary Goldman:Well, Malcolm, I don't think we... We are filled with questions. and doubts. We're now in the Twilight Zone. Disney has spent over$300 million producing and marketing this movie.
25:00Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
25:01Gary Goldman:And it seems to me that it's about me and this lawsuit.
25:04Malcolm Gladwell:Yes.
25:04Gary Goldman:It really sucks. And we're trying to figure out how this happened. Whose idea was it? Is the company behind this? Is it an official statement of the company? Did the writer who were carried over from the last movie, did they have something to do with this?
25:19Malcolm Gladwell:If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then I suggest once again, you go to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And there will come a point, trust me, when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore, and you will turn to the little person next to you, nursing their popcorn, and you will cover their ears and say out loud, along with everyone else in the crowded theater, WTF. Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department?
25:51Gary Goldman:Does the Disney legal department know about it? If the legal department knows about it, why did they approve it? If the Disney higher-ups know about it, why did they approve it?
26:00Malcolm Gladwell:No way Disney legal department knew about this. Right, Angus? No way. No way. We can remove that possibility. This sounds to me... So, somehow, somehow, Gary the Snake, the positive portrayal of Gary the Snake, sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure. This is unbelievable. This is, we're now in a heist movie. They sneaked the idea out of Disney, out of Burbank.
26:36Gary Goldman:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Malcolm, why did the studio make a movie that can be interpreted as reopening a case that was settled? They won.
26:47Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
26:48Gary Goldman:And now they're going to talk about it again. And to me, all this does, I mean, from a personal and legal point of view, it invites speculation.
26:56Malcolm Gladwell:Were there clues in the original litigation that might help us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah Drews, Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm of those depositions, of all those Disney guys? Do you have copies of them?
27:11Gary Goldman:I have a couple of answers for you, but one of them is that Disney was very scrupulous about obtaining a protective order in which pretty much anything that Disney said was proprietary or confidential or this trade secret would have to be filed under seal, so not accessible to the public.
27:37Malcolm Gladwell:So then I thought, well, I'll just go to the top. I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Iger. Hi, Bob. Happy New Year. I have become obsessed with Zootopia 2 and the question of whether the movie is an encoded apology to Gary Goldman. It's maybe my favorite Hollywood story ever. And as you may know, Gary Goldman is interpreting the film's hidden message as an act of graciousness on Disney's part. Would you ever consider talking about this for my podcast, even five minutes, even if you just want to say something brief and funny? I just saw it with my four-year-old. Anyway, I know this is a long shot, but thought you might enjoy a little distraction from your day.
28:20Malcolm Gladwell:M. He writes back. First of all, great to hear from you. And the picture of you with a four-year-old makes me smile. Kids are truly life-changers and blessings, aren't they? Then he goes on. Regarding Zootopia and Gary, I am sorry to tell you I cannot comment. I should say, Bob Iger is an incredibly kind and gracious man. And there is a version of the story where he is the hero, the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There's also a version where he was the victim of a crime so perfect that he can never bring the offender to justice. We will get there.
29:02Malcolm Gladwell:I promise. Okay, would anyone else talk? I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls. No one would go on the record. Don't use this. Or you can use this, but don't use my name. Like this guy.
29:16Gary Goldman:I'm not sure why they did it, to be honest with you.
29:19Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
29:20Gary Goldman:Because, like, that's so on the nose. and it's such a bleep you if you pardon my French. I mean, I didn't know they were that bold, to be honest with you. I kind of laugh about it. I think it's funny. It's funny. But it's hysterical. But here's the truth. You rarely poke talent in the eye. You know what I mean?
29:38Malcolm Gladwell:Yeah.
29:39Gary Goldman:So I don't know how the lawsuit ended, but I would guess there's a little bitterness because people don't lose wealth, right? So I just find it wildly bizarre. It's too good. It's too good.
29:55Malcolm Gladwell:I kept going, mogul upon mogul. Hi, redacted. I'm doing a very strange and hilarious story about Disney and Zootopia 2 and wanted to talk to you about it. The mogul writes back. Nice to connect. I would talk to you about anything except Disney. I respond. I totally understand, redacted. But I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect that you will at least be amused by what we end up doing. It's a story about how the script for Zootopia 2 never should have gotten past Disney legal. Mogul writes back. Not surprised. Good luck. On the matter of Gary the Snake and Zootopia 2, there is nothing but silence from the powers that be.
30:42Malcolm Gladwell:We have been left to our own devices. And there is nothing in the world more exciting on a story as strange as this, them being left to our own devices. Next week on Revisionist History, part two, we venture a bold theory about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the Walt Disney Corporation.
31:10Malcolm Gladwell:Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird-Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadeff-Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shikurji. fact-checking by Sam Rusick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird-Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo de Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Grabo.
From the publisher
Screenwriter Gary Goldman claims the creators of the Disney franchise Zootopia stole his story. Malcolm investigates.
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