Can Man United ACTUALLY Afford Their 2028 Title Ambition? | The Debrief

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:20My question would be why have you not paid down the loan so that we don't have to pay this£60 million interest per season that is hindering the football club because that£60 million could go somewhere else to help the football club if you would have paid it down over the 21 years that we were here Because that would hit their bottom line it does expose the fact that they're in it for the money If they were going to sell the club now they're getting circa£5 billion so they're going to walk away with a hell of a lot of money anyway Like how much more do you need at that level?

1:55Right, guys, Man United brought in nearly£678 million last season. They spent£155 million in the summer. But some fans are asking, no left-back sign, the striker was he needed? Why wasn't the money spent? So where is the money going, guys? That's the question. Where is the money going? Could they have spent more? And how realistic is their ambition to win the league in 2028? Steve's here with me as usual, especially when it regards Man United. And guys, we have the Athletics' Laurie Whitwell here, who's one of the most informed writers around right now on Manchester United. He's also the host of the Talk of the Devils podcast, who's been looking through all the accounts.

2:34He's been scouring through it, sending us loads of detail. We're here to talk to him and dig into really what is going on with the finances at the club, Manchester United. So you know what? Let's talk about the summer window. Man United bought in Balayba. They bought in Andres Santos. They brought in Telemans. They brought in Darlow. What's that fixed budget, Laurie? And I want to get straight into this. What's that fixed budget going into the summer? Or did United decide that during the window that they'd spent enough? I think they had a budget that they're working to. I think that last summer they also had a budget, but they pushed the boat out.

3:07So they don't go and get Benjamin Sesco after the event. So I think that they realised even with Champions League qualification this summer, they wanted to be more restrained. That's a choice that they made because there was cash there of sorts. It's credit. It's dipping into the revolving credit facility, which is basically the company credit card, which the more detailed accounts that came out on Friday night showed they have£200 million left on. So they did go into it for the summer window to the tune of£120 million, although they paid£30 million of it back. So yeah, I think they had a choice.

3:42They decided that this was going to be our budget because we need to get back on profitability. you know which they are they reported an operating profit in these latest accounts um after although ultimately it turned into a loss because of the interest rate of the glazer's debt and things like that as they've been reporting losses so they want to get back on profitability and so that's why they've chosen to you know keep it tighter i suppose in the transfer spend um and we can debate that can't we whether that was the right call or not but i can understand the wisdom of it at least but yeah i think they they toyed a little bit at times with spending a little bit more money um There was a period, I think, where they were debating whether to go for a left-back or a midfielder.

4:20They ultimately went for Carlos Beléber. They still were looking at the market after that point. But I think once they committed£70 million to the Beléber Pescu, after the£50 million of Andres Santos, after the£35 million of Yuri Tielemans, that they were comfortable with what they were going to spend in that market. But yeah, we can see whether that's right or not as the weeks and months go on. I think we were hindered by the lack of sales. Steve mentioned it before we come on. We just can't sell players, it seems. Ugarte obviously was injured but Rashford we couldn't get Celia if that was the case at the beginning of the window that they wanted to they couldn't how much could those kind of sales have really changed the picture at the club significantly?

4:55Yeah I think the Rashford one is a big one because I think they were anticipating Barcelona you know triggering that clause I think everybody thought they were going to do that and ultimately things changed for Barcelona and people had different ideas around it I think Hansi Flick would have been happy to have him but they went for Anthony Gordon so yeah I mean that would have been £26 million into United's bank balance and also his wages really. I think it's£17 million a year, something like that. So that's money that obviously could have been a United, I think, anticipating reinvesting into the team.

5:24The Agati thing is really unfortunate, right? I mean, they obviously were going to look to sell him. What could they have got for him? I don't know,£30 million maybe, something like that. Again, that's money that they could have put back into the transfer budget. So I do think they were impacted by those two events, mostly the Marcus Rashford one, although obviously the counterpoint to that is he is now playing for United and I would probably say one of the better performers so far. I know that's kind of a little bit of a controversial take maybe, but it's certainly an interesting topic for fans to debate.

5:53But yeah, I think that him not going then definitely impacted the amount of money they were able to spend. You know, I saw everyone speaking about the need and the desperation to sign a left-back, which I didn't totally agree with personally. But would the finances of the club actually have allowed them to have signed a left-back and a striker or one or the other? I think they could have done it, but it would have basically pushed them, again, closer to having to then qualify for the Champions League. It would have put extra strain on things. So they've got the cash there, in inverted commas, because it's credit, right?

6:30That£200 million that I mentioned in the revolving credit facility. They've also got about£60 million of cash. Obviously, the additional point to considering all that, though, is the financial regulation. So I think they're fine on the Premier League rules. It's a more liberal set of guidelines that they have to abide by. In Premier League terms, I think like 85 % of the revenue that they generate can be spent on squad, so transfer fees and wages, that like. I think they're fine on that score, but it's the UEFA one that they are probably closer to. That's more stringent, the rules. It's like 70 % that, as well as the losses.

7:05You're not allowed to make a certain amount of losses over a three-year period. So could United have pushed the boat out and then gone, you know, whatever, we'll just pay a fine if it comes to it. It's still interesting to see the calculations on that one and we'll have to see further financials on that. But it comes down to your question, Rio. Yes, they could have spent more money, in my opinion, but I can understand why they didn't because of the mounting debts and the losses that they've accrued over recent years. Steve, what missing signing do you think will cost United more points? and why would you say, would you think that?

7:38Because you was massive on the left back, weren't you? Yeah, I think both left back and striker were a big miss by not getting them. Left back, as soon as the window closed, Luke Shaw went, nice one, I'm injured in a bit. And obviously Patrick Dogu got injured last night. So nice one. So we've lost two of our left backs when we was already thinking about bringing in or needing to bring in a left back as it was. and then from the start of the season we haven't had Benjamin Sesco I mean I was talking about on the basis of Benjamin Sesco being fit he hasn't even been fit so you've gone into a season where you required Luke Shaw to do another miracle and play every single game and an injured striker to get fit and then not get injured again and he's already got injured so the the two weak points which every single person could identify, you didn't manage to go and do.

8:34Now, I'm not going to say we shouldn't have signed three midfielders, but when we look at how stacked midfield is, especially now Mason Mount looks like he's been turned into a bit of an extra, neither number six or a number eight, certainly playing deeper than in the number 10 position. We've got so many options. Andre Santos has played like 80 odd minutes in seven games. And Carlos Balaba has not been available to us yet and hasn't played at all. So we've got so much depth in a couple of areas and then so little depth in other areas. And I know there's the commitment to a transfer fee and a wages, but was there not a single striker on earth that was suitable to just come and help us up front?

9:23there were so many good strikers that was on a free and yeah i'm like the difference between like go and get in someone who's on a free transfer i mean benzema is on a free transfer at the moment like the hype and excitement that could have caused just getting him on a free would he be on considerable wages yeah but like you just said marcus rashford's on like 17 18 million a year could you not have put him on that sort of wage that's cheaper than a transfer fee and just give them a one-year deal. What would we lose by having someone like that in there and for someone like Sesco to learn from?

9:56And when you need a big moment and you've caught Benzema, how laughing are you if you've got something like that in your locker? Left back, 70 million, Lewis Hall. Yeah, I can hold my hands up and say that was a lot of money. That's hard to commit to, plus wages and all the rest of that sort of stuff. But to go in with neither position sorted, when there is so much strength and depth in other areas, I feel like, I can't even say it's one that we'll regret by the end of the season. It's not even the end of September and we're regretting it, or I think we are, or we should be. The striker thing is perhaps even more acute, given the fact that we thought Seska was going to be okay for pre-season, but clearly the club knew differently.

10:36So they knew he was on this kind of more long-term recovery process. So I think that's one that I would look at and go, really, you should have known, an experienced centre-forward just to share the load with Cesco would be prudent, would be smart. If you knew you had to manage his minutes, I totally agree with you. Without him, there isn't really a focal point. We've got players that want to come deep to the ball more often than not and get involved in the build-up. And then you lose that focal point out there. But if you had somebody up there, like I say, who could share the minute, share the load, help in terms of experience, lend that experience to Cesco for him to learn as well, you'd have been getting so much more out of just a sign-in to go on play the 90 minutes.

11:14So, yeah, Welbeck springs to mind, obviously. So does Benzema. So two players I feel would have added huge value to the forward line that we have. And they knew about Welbeck, obviously, that they've tried two years prior to this point to sign him. Certainly a couple of years ago, it got quite far. And then this summer, they knew that Chelsea were in the market for him and just didn't go in for him. So that's a choice, you know. Also, I've heard Steve complain, like many fans, so much about the fact that promoted teams spent more money than Man United. Is that something, Laurie, that we can expect to see more of, given us the financial situation at the football club?

11:55I'd be surprised if that continues. I mean, listen, promoted teams always, well, certainly some promoted teams try and spend, don't they? As soon as they get up, they're thinking, right, this is the golden goose. We need to keep this Premier League money flowing. And so Ipswich have made that choice. They've obviously had the previous time. they were in the Premier League, perhaps didn't spend as much and thought, no, we need to commit to it this time. When you actually get into the numbers as well, the accounts for United, the overall spend on transfers this summer was 193 million because of the Premier League levy, which is 4%, and then also agent fees, we think, and maybe some realised transfer fees from previous.

12:29So maybe we'd have to look at Ipswich's accounts to see if they definitely spent still more than United. But I think that United, in future years, surely we'll be able to loosen the purse ring. if they qualify for the Champions League again. But that's why it's such a huge question. And that's why you already get these debates around Michael Carrick's position because of that qualification for the Champions League. If that looks uncertain, maybe that's the crucial point of it. But obviously Carrick should be rewarded and credited with the fact that if you look at the accounts, £33 million went into United's revenue because of him raising them from 15th to 3rd last season, plus then the Champions League revenue, which is like£45 million straight out the gate, plus all the additional stuff as you go along.

13:11But yeah, I think that in future years, United should be able to spend more because they do generate huge amounts of money. Well, you know, generating huge amounts of money. Man United have always done that. How do you bring in almost 700 million pounds and still lose over 40 million quid? That's quite baffling when you put them cold, stark numbers on the table and go, well, how the hell is that happening? And when you look at the wage bill as well, Rio, I was thinking this. Yes, low, low in comparison to the other big teams. My colleague, Chris Weatherspoon, who is a financial expert, he put that as equivalent to 2008-9.

13:48That was the historical low for United in terms of ratio to revenue. So you should have been asking for a pay rise back then, Rio. But it does paint a picture of United trying to get their costs under control. So they've obviously made huge strides in that department, plus the staff that they've made redundant. They've streamlined the overall cost of the club outside of the football side of things, but still they're losing money. It's the glaze of debt. That's a huge part of it. The leverage takeover that they completed in 2005 should never have been allowed to happen. They're still seeing the scars of it and will continue to.

14:23So one of the points that has to then go down on this that flips it from a profit to a loss is the interest payments on that long-term debt. So it came out as like 69.7 million, I think, initially, but that is a little bit to do with the currency fluctuations that you get from year on year. The more accurate kind of comparison, I would say, is the kind of interest rate specifically. And that's 35 million again this year that they're having to pay just for the interest. They're not even paying the debt down. This is just the interest on this long term debt. And that is actually going to go up by 10 million next year because they have to refinance that long term debt at a higher percentage rate.

15:00So it was like 3.79, I think it's now 5 point something. So it's an extra£10 million a year that is just going out of the club for the privilege of having the Glazers own it, which is obviously, that is why there's still such emotion and feeling and passion amongst the fan base around the ownership. And that's why it was such a damaging takeover for United because it just locks them into this situation where I can't see anybody paying off that debt. Like, why would they? The Glazers haven't shown any indication of doing that at any point, that they just won't. And then even a new owner coming in, you're going to have to have a huge benefactor come in to wipe it.

15:35Like, you know, Sheikh Jassim and the Qatar bid were promising to do, although obviously then they were unable, according to the SEC filing that United made, to provide proof of funds. But it's going to take this kind of incredible shift to get that debt clear. And I just don't see a situation where that happens. It seems like it's only one entity that's actually gained anything from the takeover that their Glazer's done, and that's them. it's a phenomenal deal for the Glazer family and that's why it was huge protests at the time fans wrote to government they tried to provide their counter bid themselves they tried to get finance themselves to take over the club because that would be the question for everybody else if you love the club so much why don't you try they did try and it just wasn't they weren't able to do it obviously there's a whole load of different circumstances that came to be to allow the Glazers into this position and there's been refinancing that's taken place that they've needed to do that has got quite strained at times with those high-interest loans that they originally took out to buy the club.

16:35But I agree with you. I mean, even if you look at FSG at Liverpool, they haven't been a nation-state funding them indefinitely, but they've done it smartly. They've put a bit of money in to refinance the stadium, to improve the asset, so to speak, and improve the experience for fans, make it a bigger capacity. So I think that's an alternative view, where you think if only, and this is what kind of Sir Jim Ratcliffe has done. He's actually put, you know, $300 million, I think it is, of his own money in. It was part of the deal that he did with the Glades, so he had to do it, but it's then, you know, created a new training ground.

17:10$50 million of that has gone towards that. And so, yeah, I mean, that's what you'd want from an owner, right? Someone who, okay, you don't want money being put in. United doesn't need to have the benefactor. They make enough money themselves, but at least just run it, you know, as a case of, you know, the club, spends the money that it makes it's uh yeah it is garling when you think about it right man we've got loads still to come right on this pod but we'll be back shortly after this therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough it shows up in the smallest moments you bite your tongue instead of escalating you put your phone down instead of firing off that text you say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most.

17:54Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability.

18:30And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This January, Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Brews Cruise sails from Miami to the Bahamas aboard the Norwegian Jewel. Three straight days with pool deck bare knuckle fights in the Caribbean. Massive parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings, and nonstop action.

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19:30I genuinely don't understand how it's legal. I don't understand how you can take a loan out to buy something and make the thing that you bought pay the loan off. It's the heist of the century, Rio. Honestly, it genuinely is. Because when they're going to sell eventually, I hope, right? When they sell, they're probably walking to the bank with a billion each with a B. And what have they done? They've probably been half a dozen times. I genuinely don't think they give a toss or even check on our results I don't think they care if we're successful I think they just go am I getting my dividend? no why?

20:14because we're not competitive well how much is that going to cost? alright spend that then but if it was like if you had to ask them it's going to cost us 500 million to win the league or 200 million just to stay in the Champions League so you can still get your dividend I think they go cool there's 200 million I don't think they give a toss whether we're successful or not. I think they just want us to be successful enough to keep the cow being milked. But Laurie, is there a pathway to clearing a debt? Is it as easy as that? Is there a simple way to, not a simple, but is there a way to do that?

20:46Or are United just going to continue to extend it? I mean, in this current ownership, they'll just continue to extend it because there's no value, there's no benefit to Ratcliffe or the Glazers. obviously they've shown no indication of doing that over 21 years of ownership to reduce that debt. So for example, the refinance, they've got two big long-term debts out and they've refinanced one now because it was coming up for renewal in, well, coming up for repayment, sorry, in 2007. They were never going to repay it. So they've had to renegotiate it, but they've taken out more. So it was$425 million.

21:19It's now$550 million. They got a bit of cash for that. So they've used a bit of that cash to buy this land that we spoke about earlier and also put back into the revolving credit facility, which is the short-term debt. I mean, there's just so many different elements of debt. I grew up as a fan of United, loved the game, and then journalism as well, wanting to write stories about football and different aspects of it. And I've had to adopt this financial expertise in a very... I don't say that extensively. Obviously, there's people that know far more about it than me but it's an area that I've had to try and investigate so I can understand it because it's so fundamental to Manchester United and so all I can see in terms of clearing the debt is you know I could say you know a nation state I mean or you get some huge you know conglomerate you know obviously Jeff Bezos has just invested into Liverpool hasn't he yeah but I just don't see even even in that situation why would you as an owner you know pay off somebody else's debt like it's not yours to pay off it doesn't make any sense so it would it would take a huge benefactor to do it and so that's why i think we're in this cycle of you're not paying off the interest you listen companies do work with debt like it's not uh in the business world you know some people think it's good because you kind of you're getting money that you haven't actually earned and so you're able to use that in the immediate term to then you know grow your brand or whatever but for united it definitely shackles what they're able to do you know both both on the pitch and then off the pitch in terms of stadium development.

22:52Yeah, surely that's a good thing if it's like what Spurs and Arsenal have done, which is they've gone into debt to build world-class stadiums. We went into debt to change the name over the top of the door. That's it. We went into debt so they could have us. And they're like, cool, now let's take... Imagine we'd have spent£50 million on one extra player every year for 21 years. That's what they've taken out of us. It's actually more than that. It's probably more like 65. And think about how much that would have been in 2005. That's a world record fee. Like, that's absolutely outrageous. Well, the interest this year, 35 million.

23:29What did you go for, Rio? Was it like 30 million? It's like, you know, obviously they've signed Tielemans this summer for 35 million, but then the same amount has gone to interest. It's, yeah. And no other club has to deal with it like this. So yeah, it's a massive albatross around United's neck. Could any other club have survived this? I don't think so. It got close, didn't it, with United? There were certain moments, obviously the financial crash happened in 2008. That was a big moment. They managed to get through that. And then the IPO that they launched in 2012, where they basically put the club on the New York Stock Exchange, that basically sealed the deal for the Glazers being the owners, being able to make money from people buying shares.

24:08Obviously the construction of the shares, class A, class B. And that's why even with Ratcliffe investing in the club and buying a certain amount, that's why they've got more control of the club still, 60 % to his 29 or so. And that's even with him, because it just isn't the same equivalent, basically, when you're getting people buying in. So it's a complex deal. And that's why it'll still be interesting to see how this develops as time goes on. There's a bit of a signpost in February 2027 where the Glazers could, as per the agreement, sell the club for less than the$33 per share that Ratcliffe paid and drag him along if he doesn't want to buy the whole club entirely.

24:50So that's an interesting point. Some people say that might be one where you could see something happening equally. Others are saying, I think, you know, the happiest things are going, you know, obviously they're back in the Champions League and what have you. But it just, that dynamic between the two different ownership groups really does fascinate me. I sit and think about this and you talked about the shares and the difference in the shares. What has Radcliffe actually gained from joining Manchester United other than a bit more of a spotlight on his name? Yeah, prestige. I mean, the spotlight certainly at times it's felt like he hasn't enjoyed it, right?

25:22He spoke, didn't he, about the extra scrutiny that comes and the newspaper criticism. And I feel like that does have an impact. But I think, yeah, it's prestige, isn't it? If you're a multi-billionaire, having a football club of the heritage of the calibre of Manchester United is something to, I guess, flex about. I'm sure he will say he grew up a United fan and making this club back into the kind of success that you were part of would be a legacy for him, obviously as he's into his 70s now. And the stadium's obviously a big thing. Just sorry, Laurie. How's he going to do that if he's so hamstrung by the interest rates, the dividends that are going to be paid out to the Glazer family, et cetera?

26:08I just wonder how he thought he was going to change the fortunes of the club, given all of the stuff in the background. I suppose people have, you know, we probably think this with every head coach that United appoint, I'll be the difference, I'll make the change, I'll have this force of personality to affect meaningful improvement. And I'm sure Ratcliffe felt that. There's an idea that they weren't aware of exactly how bad the situation was until they got into the accounts properly. But I don't know, I think the due diligence phase is pretty high, you know, high level sort of stuff that you're getting into there.

26:42So, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. It's hard to square this kind of ambition for a title challenge in 2028 with United having the fifth highest wage bill, which is what we sort of think from these accounts that have come out where City are, you know, 168 million pounds higher annual wage bill than United. I mean, listen, that counts as like 200 grand a week, a player, 20 players. Laurie, you mentioned the stadium, the new stadium. Yeah. Isn't that going to add like more debt onto the club itself with that and all the expenditures going to have to go alongside that? Yeah, this is the big question.

27:21People that are way smarter than me are saying, how on earth are United going to fund this stadium? Because they've already got this debt. So they can't take on more debt. And this is actually what came out in the financial results. They can't take on more debt unless the current debt gets wrapped up into it and gets sorted out, basically. But I think there's a possibility for them to create a company within the United family tree of companies, I suppose, that then is the company that sorts out the stadium. Yeah, so it kind of separates it a little bit, but that still requires them to find a bank or sponsors that are willing to do it.

27:58And they've been really confident. I remember sitting down with Omar Barada and Colette Roach, who's the chief executive of the kind of stadium development. And obviously Omar Barada is the chief executive of the football club. When they launched the kind of designs for this new stadium, when Ratcliffe was there like 18 months ago, they were really confident about getting enough finance for it. But we still haven't heard how or why or when even. And we're kind of moving along in the process, which is definitely slower, I think, than we perhaps felt or were given the impression that it was going to be those months ago.

28:30But yeah, it's the big question. It's still been unanswered, Rio. So yeah, I don't know. You know what? I've got a question for both of you. Because you've got somebody who's an avid fan and looks at it really from a fan perspective. And you've got someone, obviously you as a fan, Laurie, but you're now a writer. What's the one thing that you want the club to explain publicly after seeing these accounts and going through with a fine-tooth comb. Why three midfielders this summer? Why not different positions? What ultimately did that come down to? And was there an appreciation of how that might impact the performances on the pitch?

29:05Because it does feel like, you know, if you're going to try and challenge for a title, this squad isn't equipped for that, is it? It's possibly equipped for Champions League, which maybe is the ultimate aim. But yeah, why did you make those decisions in the transfer market? Probably my question. Okay. we saw these plans, these grand plans for a£2 billion stadium. How are we affording that? Is there a pathway? Because£70 million a season is a new signing every single season. If that's what we're paying out in interest, how do you justify that? How do you justify a season ticket rise when you're doing that?

29:38How do you justify the redundancies when you're doing that? And how do you anticipate us ever being competitive while we're basically signing a player that we can't play that's called interest rates to a bank every year, forever. That's what my thing would be. My question would be to the Glazers. My question would be, why have you not paid down the loan so that we don't have to pay this£60 million interest per season that is hindering the football club? Because that£60 million could go somewhere else to help the football club if you would have paid it down over the 21 years that we were here. Because that would hit their bottom line.

30:14It does expose the fact that they're in it for the money because whatever the glory... That's fine, but like you just said before, I'll go back to your point. If they were going to sell the club now, they're getting circa 5 billion. So they're going to walk away with a hell of a lot of money anyway. How much more do you need at that level? Yeah, but to have paid it back to this point, they would have had to put their own money in, wouldn't they? And instead, they've actually been taking, as Steve said, dividends out. They stopped that when the club stopped being profitable. even they acknowledged that they couldn't take dividends out you know it was around the pandemic time basically when they stopped so but it just I agree with you Rio to most minds that would be the right thing to do but I don't think they think of it like that they think of it well that's the club's debt now you know if anyone wants to take that on they can do but we've got our shares we own this amount of money we own this amount of Manchester United we'll get the price that we want for these shares in our own minds yeah you know what Laurie This is a great example of where we are today, where football clubs are looked at as purely businesses.

31:21There is zero emotion that goes alongside most of the owners nowadays compared to years gone by. Is it Steve Gibson at Middlesbrough? There's an emotion that surrounds his decision-making at the football club, whether that's right or wrong, but you know and you can feel and sense that he's actually, his heart's in the club. and I think that's been the thing that fills with this transaction and I kind of highlight that word transaction because I feel this is very much just a transactional situation. Is this a good business deal? I think it's the way that Glazers looked at it. This isn't about, I don't think, we're looking at the best interests solely of the club.

32:02This has been very much about, does this make sense financially? But I think in the interest of the football club long term, I don't think the club has been looked at with an emotional lens at all. Do you mind me asking this, Rio? What was your impression at the time? Obviously, you were at the club. Did you recall it being this? Because there's a lot of animosity from the fans, but I appreciate as players, you're probably just thinking, well, I've got to perform on the pitch. But what was it like for you? Mate, I'm playing football. All I want to do is be a footballer. I want to go out there, put that shirt on and win trophies.

32:35At the time, I'm going to be brutally honest, I didn't know enough. I didn't allow myself to get bogged down with all this information. I just thought, you know, it gets sorted out and whatever's best for the club will happen. I trusted in that. But it doesn't seem like it's playing out like that. So as players, I get even players now, when stuff's going on at the football club with the decision makers at the club and the people that are more knowledgeable about the finer details of finances, structure, stadiums, etc. Players never involve themselves. We ain't got the capacity to involve ourselves.

33:09Most of us aren't equipped to be able to involve ourselves anyway. Most of us wouldn't even understand the first thing it comes to do with the finance of the club. We're just getting to terms with our own finances. So it's actually impossible to expect the players to be able to jump on either side of the fence because they're not equipped to learn or to know. And also, do you want them to be the best version of themselves on the football pitch for your team? leave them to it then. And let the people making decisions, trusting them to make the right decisions for the club. Did you think half of the players, if not all the players, knew exactly what the mechanics of the whole takeover was about?

33:49What that meant, the implications for the club? What that meant the glazes were taken out at the time? What the interest rates were going to be and how they affected the club long-term? None of us knew that. And to be brutally honest, all we cared about, and some people go, all they cared about was picking up their wages. It wasn't that. All we cared about was going out and being right frame of mind to go and perform to win trophies for Manchester United. And again, we trusted in the authorities and the governance to make sure things are right for the club. And it'll get, all our minds, it'll get sorted out in time.

34:22It will get sorted out. We've just got to get through this moment and try and keep winning. While you was there, obviously you signed 2002. Martin Edwards is a gaffer. At the time you were signed, in and around that, Like before you, we'd had Roode and Seba Verón, then you, and then we have Ronaldo, and then we have Rooney. We go through a period. And if you extend that to like 98, where we've gone big in the transfer market, and it's the only time Manchester United really did, where we actually had a real effort at trying to be like a bit of a big dog. And then 2005 onwards, it kind of slowed down.

35:02And, you know, especially when you look at 2013, when we could have gone big and we just signed RVP for modest money. Okay, he was very successful for us, but he's modest. Was there any point where you as a player was like, because Rooney obviously called it out, didn't he? He feels like the club's lacking ambition. We sell Cristiano Ronaldo for a world record fee and we're replacing him with Michael Owen, Tony Valencia and Gabriel Obertin. There's no way that you lot as a dressing room are like, off we go, go again. surely you're thinking this isn't quite right yeah that was the only window really where I thought that where I went oh like we've let we let the Ballon d 'Or win a go and Antonio Valencia ended up being an absolute monster signing but he came from Wigan at the time so at that time you don't expect that Michael Owen wasn't the Michael Owen that he once was but still could do bits and Obertan was a was a a lottery whether he was going to be good or not his signing potential so you don't see that as a when that's a revolving door and then free walk in there you go oh wow I can see what we're doing here it was more like a oh what's that about because like you said before that we were breaking records we were signing big big prominent players and the other side of that we did go and sign like Berbatov and people like that it was still big players for big big teams maybe the prices weren't astronomical but you're still getting like Van Persie was a prominent signing taking him from one of your rivals.

36:27So that covered over the cracks a little bit. But yeah, as you know what, as players, you don't really get into the crooks of all of this stuff that goes on. You're just so obsessive doing what you do as a footballer. I'm paid to be a footballer. I'm not paid to look at the finances of the football club and try and troubleshoot. That's not what I'm here to do. There's people that have paid a lot of money to do that and are qualified. That's how you think about it as a football player. It's not my role. It's not my business. That's like me going, oh, I'm a centre-half. I'm going to try and be a centre-forward next week.

36:56put Robin on the bench and let me go up front. No, it doesn't happen. Well, that's it. And that's why the banks ultimately, they were able to say yes to these loans because they, you know, in their minds, the Glazers, Ed Woodward, who's working at JP Morgan, have made the case that they could repay them. And to begin with, it was sort of in the realm of, you know, it wasn't, you know, the cash, United had 300 million pounds of cash before the pandemic in the bank. And then the pandemic hit and they had to keep chipping away, chipping away. and that affected because of the match day revenue going plummeting, that affected things.

37:30It's obviously come to this culmination, but obviously it was always simmering in the background that this wasn't quite right. Now, the Glazers will, their argument, I think, would be we increase the commercial capacity of the club. So that's what they've added to the club, the idea of bringing the sponsor, et cetera. Now, you could argue, because at the time, some people would say, actually, no, the better way of doing a sponsorship would be exclusive content with high-end companies and keeping it to a handful. Yeah, premium. So anyway, they went a different route and obviously everyone followed suit really.

38:01So they would say, we're trendsetting on that. They're not anymore because you've got, you know, Arsenal have got higher revenue. City have got higher revenue. Liverpool have got higher revenue now. So United aren't even actually the big beasts, although they can generate money like nobody else, I think. And if they win things again, they certainly would do. But they're not actually the biggest beast at the table anymore. And that's as a consequence of the glazes, I would say, and obviously of mismanagement in terms of recruitment or not getting it quite right, as obviously other clubs have done.

38:29So, yeah, it's a big old situation. Laurie and Steve, right? United have talked about challenging for the title in 2028. And I thought it was a bad call to come out and say that at the time myself because you get hold to these types of things if you mention them. But with the figures that we're seeing financially, and we seem way off it. if you look at just the wages between Man Utd and Man City, it's like 168 million difference that City have more, they're spending on wages. How far off do you think we must be to really go and realise that 2028 shout about challenging? And actually, when you were saying that, and when Steve was talking earlier, when you asked about the question you'd ask them, that is one of the questions I'd say, are you going to keep this level of salary with your playing staff, or are you actually, are you trying and just readjust it and then you're going to go again because ultimately that's the biggest correlation between success and failure, I guess.

39:28If you've got the highest wage bill, it looks hard, doesn't it? I don't know what you think, Steve or Rio even. It feels very difficult to go from that to title challenges in 2018. I think difficult is being incredibly diplomatic. I think he was deluded when he said it and I think it looks ridiculous now. To say that United could be champions of the Premier League, on what basis? and if you and if you was going to say that you should have backed that up by filling the obvious holes in the squad this summer because that's only a couple of windows away are you going to do everything next summer and then just imagine all of those signings hit the ground running and we're champions by 2028 because no we're not I really think the next year two years are about consolidating Champions League presence again finishing comfortably in the Champions League positions I think is consolidating and giving us a chance to build in a much more economical way.

40:24I think this thinking that we can go into a window and just blitz it and then changes the fortunes of the club, I think is crazy to even think that could be the case. And we've got areas in the team I think we need to build on and recruit for, but also the players that we've also bought in the last two years still need to be moulded into a way of playing that everyone's completely comfortable with and also create their own kind of profile within the football club. We need more Bruno Fernandes. I'm not saying more people that play like him or who are. We need more players that can come in and play to the level that are least expected of them or anticipated them being.

41:03The more guys we can get doing that at a consistency level of a Bruno, the more chance we've got to do that. And that comes down to coaching. That comes down to creating the right environment and culture at the football club and recruiting the players and understanding and knowing who they are as well, more than just football players. Because Man United, as we've seen, isn't just about talent. It's about, can you handle the spotlight that's different to anywhere else in this country? There we have it. It's quite a sombre in chat, that, guys, man. The energy here is just, it's low, man. Laurie, I don't know if you can come on anymore, bro, when you think it'll be like this.

41:35Yeah, that's fine. Get me on after a win, please. Honestly, I'm a pretty positive guy. I'm quite optimistic. it but obviously the financials just paint a bleak picture so I suppose you know if you think about a title charge you know Carrick did produce the best results since he came in last season it's just obviously no one expected it and it all felt like it wasn't it was going to kind of I guess revert to the mean eventually and that's what we're I guess experiencing now but it needs some magic doesn't it need some special quality to get United back there again hopefully there's somebody out there that can do it, both on a playing side and all different aspects of the club.

42:13All right, man. Well, Steve, as usual, thank you. Laurie, great to hear you, man. Great to speak to you and get that insight as well and a bit more detail than what we could give. So thank you very much. Keep studying the finances and keep letting us know. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me on. I'll try and be more positive next time. Please do consider me in future. Thank you.

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