Michael Carrick on Scholes' intimidation | Sir Alex Ferguson interrupts the podcast

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1:13That's not the gaffer's phone.

1:19Go on. Go again, or not? No, go on. It's fine. It's fine. It's the gaffer. We've just got to get one.

1:30I was thinking the other day, like, at West Ham, producing great footballers, but even better drinkers.

1:39You? Apart from Coley. Coley's the worst drinker. Coley's a disgraceful drinker. Defoe don't drink. But, like, you, lamps. I'd throw myself in and around it. Like, solid drinkers, man. And do you know when I speak to people about like... That's the fucking group ahead of us, that's why. Yeah, it's true. It's like, who was it? Dixie, Monks, Ian Dowry, Johnny Arson. I see Monks, you know, now and again. I think he's the funniest footballer I've played with. He's tried to calm down, hasn't he? But now and again, it comes out, like, you can't hold it in. Was you on the Christmas too? Was you on the Christmas too that time?

2:13When he was just sitting staring at the bar and he just went in, two-footed someone at the bar. Do you remember? And then jumped over the bar. I remember he swam in Sugar Eats, you know? A little thing, wasn't it? A little water thing. Do you know what I'm mad at? United feels like a lifetime, doesn't it? Like West Ham and all that before that, you forget about it until you sit down and think about it. It's like, did that actually happen? Because all the people you talk to only really remember United times. Yeah. But when you think about it, you get in the right circles, I say me and you see each other because we grew up in West Ham.

2:47That was some of the best times of my life. Jurep, playing at West Ham. Like that fucking youth team day, mate, honestly. No, it's the best times. We used to go to, remember, did you get the gold McDonald's cards? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we used to, so maybe like eight of us go to McDonald's. Well, I'd have a state of when you turned up, weren't I? I'd have a state of. They used to look at you and go, it's like I was on commission for a burger. So we used to turn up, about eight or nine of us, before training, breakfast, McDonald's, go training with the lads, after training, McDonald's again, because of the gold card.

3:18Unreal, wasn't it? Oh, that was good times then. When you talk about players or teammates and that, and some of those carriers say, you know what, let's talk about him as a footballer later, but I'll tell you two things you will never know. He's actually one of the, always last man standing, part of the group, who's finishing late on an all day up. And if Dias and Carri's tunes come on, he is one of the last people on the dance floor. I could sit here and reminisce all day long. But you know what I want to start with? Number six is. You're a number six, you played your main position. now it's the most important position in football from when you listen to people that know the game did you ever think when you were playing that this would be the position that everyone goes like that is the main part of the football team I think before the pitch was huge wasn't it so you're going from back four there to back four there and then were you saying we played deep were you saying we always played deep back on the 18th odd line squeeze up no I think the way the game was and you look at clips the pitch was massive so actually everyone had more of a battle of their own battle going on that you'd be 1v1 on the halfway line i'd be 1v1 or 2v2 midfield and the pitch was spread so there was now the pitch is so small and connected everyone's protected a bit more but midfielders have got so close to everything but less space so they've got to pull everything together i think the positions evolved where you've probably got to be smarter you've got to be cleverer and and and teams play a lot more.

4:45Even we, we didn't, we played at times, but we went, we'd go long, you know what I mean? I'll be screaming at you, what are you going long for, give it me. You know what I mean? Miss me out for a bit. Yeah, or you go into Wazza or you go in behind or whatever, the pitch become big now. It's not like that. And I think the midfielders now have got to connect everything together and be, it's just evolved. I look at our team and think we were a connected bunch on and off the pitch, especially on it. But today it's almost like you've got a 25-man squad and the man can just throw anyone in there and it works.

5:21The system won't really change too much and that just was never the same with us. If players were out, the dynamic of the team would change massively, wouldn't it? I think the beauty of it for me, I was thinking about it driving over, was you look at the top, top players that I was lucky enough to play with. They were team players and we had some big egos and I think it was from the manager. the ego wasn't about him the ego was about manchester united one and that was like his do you understand what i'm saying yeah you can culture this but that's that was connections and yeah and actually wanting to do things for each other and buzz off it and get a right good feeling i think back to the plan like you say it's a great point we've got we have some huge egos in there if you go through them even just waza cristiano nani in his own way Even Gixi, Scolzi, the way they're like, like, just, you can't, you could spend two hours talking about them.

6:13We'll get to them, don't worry about that. But like, they were all, they had that confidence, that bit of arrogance about them to be, knew they were good players. It was always about the team, wasn't it? It was always about the team. That's why I love playing with Scolzi, because it was always about the team. Like, you've never done things where you're going like, what are you doing? Or you're doing it for yourself or for headlines, anything like that. It was just about the team, wasn't it? You're a slap bang in the middle of the pitch of anything great that goes through this team, it goes through that part of the pitch where you are.

6:43And behind that is where me and Vida play. A lot of people talk about me and Vida, et cetera, this and that. But I'd like to know from your perspective, what did you need from the likes of myself and Vida playing behind you for you to go and excel and be the player that you was? Communication's massive. You more than Vida, but Vida would he'd let you know do you know what I mean and it was a simple simple shout of left or right left shoulder right shoulder I didn't even have to know what was behind me or look I just took a step to my left on my right and trusted that you were telling me and you balance off and then actually I do less work you do less work sometimes you told me so I do more work than you but most of the time 95 % of the time we're all doing less work because you don't have to second guess or think about I need to cover that and that I just thought I don't need that because you've got it that's wavelength connections wavelength that's just like being a team isn't it do you know what I mean that's huge just going back to your position what in today's game who do you look at and go they play it to a different level to everybody else Rodri's probably the obvious one just because he's kind of so much made of him being there when he's not been there kind of the difference but it's probably gone a bit extreme really and he's listen he's an incredible player the way it's worked i'm not sure it's it's that true do you know what i mean it's gone a bit exaggerated both ways but he's a massive part of every team he plays in and i think that's why because throughout the game you don't look at him he keeps it simple he keeps things and looks well sorry it's not simply makes it makes it look simple so you can look and think he ain't done an awful lot but he just keeps everything connected and i think he's the one where he's a step ahead he's kind of sees it from above so he's not in the game in terms of dealing with this distance here he's seen it from there and knows exactly who's where what's going on who's jumping where the press is coming from where the space is where do i need to cut you know he sees it from up here and i always think the best players see the game from from up high and almost looking down on it and know where everything is.

8:53And other players will rely on, in the moment, instinct of like contact or need to dribble, but they only see that bit of space around them. Everything's blurred. Yeah, or like the initial bit, 1v1, I'm all right, I'm clear, I beat you, but he didn't know where the other space is or who's free or whatever. And I think the best player, especially midfielders, almost take a step back, take a step up, get the whole wide angle out, and just know exactly what the pitch looks like. and I think that's what separates him probably from most. I just want to chat to you about when you joined Manchester United and there's a quote that I read from you when you was offered the number 16 shirt.

9:29It said, I nearly snapped the manager's hand off. That wasn't a quote that I'd normally have put to you because you're just like quiet, just chilled, honest. You're not that guy. I'm a stubborn man. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, when I saw that, it was like, no, no, I think he's going to be all right. Do you know what I mean? so what was you thinking because that's pressure Roy Keane the captain it depends how you look at it to be first he was probably one of the best if not the best midfielders to play in the Premier League and he was a massive influence at the club but it was more of a my missus will tell you as well there's a stubbornness in me and it's kind of inside and you've probably seen it and it's you've got to have something telling you inside that keeps you going and wanting to prove things and wanting to do well.

10:24The number didn't really bother me that much but there was definitely a stubbornness thinking I'm here because I want to be good enough and I want to show that I can be here. Because the normal reaction from that club or teammates sometimes, manager, we need to just replace like for like and obviously physicality was a big part of his game he'd dominate a game through physicality sometimes also playing. And the side is no one you can't replace. he could do everything I never got to play with him played against him enough but it's like you can't replace Brian Robson before him really and he was a version of that but they told totally different players what they were told so I think it's and then at the time there was no one like Roy to replace so that's the manager's skill though isn't it what do we need as a team where's the game evolving is it changing a little bit and that's exactly what I thought I was going to come on to I'm taking a massive punt and thinking we'll take you.

11:19We'll take you, West Ham Academy graduate. But that's what I was going to come onto. It was actually telling, we played against you a little bit before we signed you, didn't we? It was at Tottenham. Yeah, the league at Spurs. And I'll never forget your delivery in that game. That was the first time I played against you and actually your delivery just stood out. I knew you were good on the ball and you could play, but your delivery, especially set-piece, I was like, oh my, he's gone to another level. And I realised quickly, we're going to have to play a different way now because Michael's coming, Roy's gone, we're going to play a different way.

11:48And was that a pressure in itself that you might have to change the way we play because you're all going to be in the team? Or did that even consider that? I didn't even consider that, to be honest. I was too busy thinking I need to win the trust for the lads. Beyond anything else of thinking what's going to happen next year or the year after or what impact it was just I need to earn the trust of that dressing room. To play in a team like that, you've got to be able to trust each other. and how much it was, whatever, didn't bother me. Number didn't bother me. It was more like I sat next to Giggsie and Scolzi in the changing room training and I'm thinking, oh my God, I've got to deal with this.

12:27And they've got to trust me and want to give me the ball, you know what I mean? And that was the biggest thing by a mile. So what got you through that point of maybe vulnerability, a little bit of self-doubt? High heart rate at times. Running around everywhere. The heart jumping out of your chair. The ball coming to you, that's what I was saying. And looking calm as well. Can I just say something? The duck legs were going like that. Can I say something? When the ball comes into you, because I always talk about my first training session in the box, hardest thing I experienced at United. I've seen a few people, a box, I've seen a few off over the years.

13:01People fold like a pack of cards. But I always thought when the ball is coming to you in them situations in training, if someone had a heart rate monitor on me, I reckon I'm doing illegal numbers. It's just crazy how it just changes. It's mad. It's not even an important part of the session. No, no. And you're standing still pretty much. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? A lot of it you stand, but you think like you want to... But then there's something deep, I think, that thinks, no, this is a bit of me. This is where I want to be. And there was different boxes, weren't there? There was two or three boxes, weren't there?

13:33And it was kind of the older box. Where did you go into? No, I made a real point of thinking, I want to be in that box. I want to be there and I want to... That's where I want to be. I just thought I want to be in them. I want to feel it. I want to be there. That's what I want to be. I want to be an important player. I want to win the trust. I want to be at that level. Who was in that box? God, it was a flitter, didn't it? But it was you. It was Oli, Giggsie, Scolze, Gaz Nev, Gabby Heinzer at the time. He used to throw bombs. He used to wrap the ball in there. Actually, he's an arsehole now. As a coach, I can't wait to see him.

14:09Because he used to smash balls into people. Lovely left foot though. yeah but he used to smash it of course um but there was something in there that's what i mean there was something there where as kind of calm and kind of relaxed i am a lot of the time there was something i want to be there and i want to kind of and i want to sit see learn off the best you know what i mean and prove that actually to myself that i can i can be there so do you know what don't we we had a good first season won the league and then got beaten the fa cup final of Chelsea and that summer I'll never forget I went away thinking I've just won the league this should be like my everything wow I just won the Premier League and all I thought about all summer was the FA Cup final lost lost lost the FA Cup final lost the FA Cup final and that was probably for me similar to going to United thinking out there and then it's there and then getting to my first trophy and thinking I'd be like this is everything to realise this is not enough, it's not enough and I never thought I'd be like that I thought I'd be like this is amazing but that was never enough and I was like come back again and then obviously that next year we played Chelsea in the final and I took that with me from the FA Cup final going into that final I can't feel like that in this one it's mad though isn't it you know it's never and then it was just never enough after that It's the same feeling.

15:27We lost two Champions League finals to Barca, arguably the best team we've ever seen at club level. And both of them seasons we've won the league. But they're probably two of my worst summers. The first one after Ron was like, world caved in. And like you say, we won the league. And we're a hell of a team. I think we went, that was the first time we lost a Champions League game in 25 games. It was a record, wasn't it? the final we went from san zero two years before yeah two years all the way through two seasons all the way through and lost the final and it felt like i was like i don't know if i can play this level anymore like i'm just like do you know what i mean am i good enough for a few days i'm like it hit me and i was like and then you come back around and then and then you get what less it was a mad two years to think but it almost ended on such a downer it was weird you'd won in the Premier League two years out of them two years, and he lost two Champions League final, and it was the two probably worst feelings I've had in the league.

16:28And I think for everyone, manager included, coach, everything, it almost was irrelevant what we'd done. We'd just lost that. It's what's next. But was that insecurity important? Yeah, because I think it keeps you pushing. Keeps you pushing. I say it to the lads at Middlesbrough all the time, they're probably sick of me saying it. I've seen a quote from Lewis Hamilton, unbelievable quote saying, if I feel comfortable in the car, I'm not driving fast enough. Don't you ever be comfortable because you're comfortable, you're not pushing enough. And that was always for me, you come back pre-season, especially United at that time as a player, and I was never comfortable.

17:07It was like, what's next? So I never actually felt settled, you know what I mean? Because there was something else to push for. It's funny because you always looked settled, especially alongside Scolzi. I mean, you guys played 160 games together, one of the most successful periods of the club's history. What was it like playing with Scolzi alongside him? I played behind, so I was always watching him with him, but you played alongside him. Just talk us through what that was like and how good he was, please. I think I used to ring my brother on the way back from training most days over that first two or three years and just almost say, I can't believe I'm playing with Scolzi.

17:41You should have seen what Scolzi did today or how good was that today or this or that. and it was it was just um every time i was literally looking at him going i can't believe i'm playing next to you yeah and it's it was more styles to be fair he's like this is styles make fights but actually styles make kind of you and leader do you know what i mean it's just like for whatever reason it just works clicks um and i always felt with scozy and not a lot of midfielders would do it but you pass to him and you get it back so you you you'd almost play a little 2v2 in the middle of the pitch and that's what it felt like it was didn't feel like a big pitch it felt like it was me and him against their midfielders and he would keep it there for a while two or three passes and sometimes you'd pass to a midfielder and the ball's gone and it switched to play but you never felt in control or got a rhythm where i scold you it was always like it was all little passes and the ones around the corner and little he was just did you have conversations about it and forming a relationship no really no he wasn't really talking him was he Nah, he didn't need to though, did he?

18:43Again, he was just trust, but it was that, it was the making pass in the middle. And because the pitch was so big, if you got 2v2 in the middle of the pitch, if someone was playing that, I'd be buzzing with that. Because if you're going to jump to both of us, then you've got Waz and he'd flip one round the corner one touch. It always felt like it was a little game, you know? It was almost like buzzing inside thinking, we've got a little game here. That's what it felt like, you know? so um but he was just he was different when he could do everything it's good you got one if you get tight to him around the corner if you don't get tight to him you get out his feet and he make it or you play and run he just had the brain but going back to that he was a team player so he played with you and not just to look good in the yeah there was there's a big difference for me when you're kind of trying to control a game like that he was happy to give you three four yard passes to to kind of to control the game yeah and then all of a sudden you pick his moment and he loved playing with him it was a dream absolute dream could that too play in the way the game's played today could that transfer to today yeah I'd say so I don't think I think distances are smaller anyway and certainly Scalzi the way he played what were them the possessions like literally you play a possession 4v4 on this table and you'd find space did he give it away in the possessions it was incredible it was just incredible and he'd do things and he didn't see from a distance and he'd be playing little bits of space and round corners and you think how have you seen that that's what I'm saying before about playing from above he just knew what was around where he could use it's just a gift that's genius isn't it and he'd scream for the ball wouldn't he quietest man in the team loudest on the pitch when he wanted the ball he'd make you give him the ball just because of his the way he screamed for it just like I'd go on him give him a hit you would wouldn't you it was that You had that intimidation about him in a really good way, that quiet but some confidence and arrogance in the really nicest way to think that I can do that.

20:46He had a little look as well if you didn't give him the ball, the ball came with a funny angle. He was ruthless, wasn't he? Silent assassin, wasn't he? He just knew what he could do so he just did it. It was not really an ego to, he just fucking do it. And then he'd have a little snigger, if you've done something really good he'd have a little snigger. Embarrassment almost. I've done an interview with Giggsie the other day and he spoke so much about how Man United players need to play with risk. And people don't normally associate you with risk when they talk about you because I think to probably 95 % of players that play football, the passes that you make will be risk to them.

21:23But to you, it doesn't look like it. How important is it to play with risk in the game? Yeah it depends, there's totally different bits of risk isn't there, you might play with risk by playing 1v1 on the halfway line or you play with risk by back in the day you're doing Maradona's at West Ham coming up from the back and doing little dropping shoulders and dribbling up, that's playing with risk but it's playing with a, it's like I was quite happy taking the ball and play it anywhere but like you say for other players that might be risk for like a Rodri now say for instance he'd take the ball anyway it's not, it doesn't see it as a risk going down the levels um people will be going don't pass it in there that's too risky and that's fine but it's just what can you what can you cope with um the thing that's sticks out for gigzi and scolzy for me is then they know that they knew they could do something even if it didn't come off once or twice they knew that it was worth the risk and when it did come off it would be a game changer and that was the thing that it's easier if you give it away once or twice to go I've got a bit safe next time because it's the safety one but actually the right thing to do was that he just didn't quite pull it off he can pull it off the amount of times probably Giggsie more than his goals he just keep doing whatever different passes or dribbles and it was almost like just thinking they can't keep stopping it they can't keep stopping it and then bump goal or bump chance and that was the thing I thought, wow, you're at a level that I hadn't seen before in terms of pure confidence and belief and knowing the game to know that it's worth trying.

23:04It wasn't a risk where it's a risk where you're going to be weaker. You're just trying to take liberties. Yeah, it wasn't that. It was just more, I know what the value of that is. If it comes off, then I'm going to try it at the right time and do it. And the fans would get on Giggs' case sometimes and moans and groans, but it was like, done. He said that in the interview, he said, if I had the ball ten times and I lost it eight times, but I know that eighth or ninth time that I'm going to produce the moment, I'm doing it still. I don't mind losing it eight times. Talking of risks and bringing it forward to the current squad, Bruno Fernandes, I think there's always been a bit of debate about it takes too many risks or whatever.

23:42I love him. I love the risks that he takes. Where do you sit with the main United captain now? Yeah, I like Bruno. I worked with him, with Oli, and he was fantastic. he's got a real um desperate to do well you know he's he's so keen to do well um and that can go that's a really positive thing and then sometimes it can you can you can you can overdo it sometimes as well and it's such a fine balance but he's actually he plays every game he never misses training he's there all the time puts himself out there puts himself forward and he's been the main man really the talisman for for some time and when there's moments or there's something that's needed Bruno's been the one to step up.

24:22I really enjoyed working with him when I did. You know, he asks questions, he's demanding, but he wants to do the right thing. What will you be telling him then when you was the manager? He's asking you questions because he was obviously new then and he wasn't just trying to get a picture of what Man United had expectations. What would you be talking about? He took it pretty quickly. He got it. He understood what it was. It's amazing. you get a feel for that with certain players you would have had it when you went when when we were playing if like some players come and grasp it and get it and think this yeah i understand the whole thing because it i think there's a responsibility united that it's not just it's not just that little bit of football on the pitch there's a whole other world out there isn't there like you've got to kind of there's a responsibility really i think in terms of behavior and how you act and um how you do things and that was certainly from when i came through the door that was like that was almost thrown upon you that he had no choice but you gave a deal with it you you don't and if you don't then see you later and um bruno's the type that he embraced all that straight away he seems like the type who would probably fit in in our generation in our team like the way ability-wise definitely yeah yeah also like he'd buy into to what we're trying yeah he's very similar type to that yeah another young midfielder or not young but he's young but Bruno isn't but another midfielder in Cobby Mayne.

25:44Interesting him, he really fascinates me. I think he was phenomenal with England in the tournament, he shone in that. Before that with United he was scoring, he was influencing games etc. That hasn't quite gone right for him since then for injuries and whatnot. What would you be saying to him as a young midfielder if he was at the club now? I think that's pretty normal Ray. Honestly I think it's normalising this situation for him. I think as a young player you go back when you were coming through there's times when if it was scrutinising as extreme as it is now we wouldn't be nowhere near as good or we'd struggle it's a different world now and I think I think as a young player your first two three four years you're going to have a time in that spell where it hits you and it doesn't quite go to plan but it doesn't that doesn't mean that you you don't get there or you your your ability you keep doing the right things your talent you it comes it comes if you've got it you've got it and and he's shown that he's got it and he's shown that um he's a breath of fresh air when either way the way he takes the ball and and plays forward and and commits people and can play can dribble can pass and you know that doesn't that doesn't leave you and and i think it just waves it can come and go with times but i've seen it so many times i had it as a as my third i think it was my third year i was at west ham i was terrible terrible i was i come out the england squad i was i just couldn't couldn't put it together i'm not saying he's terrible by the way i think it's gone diff it's a little bit different for him but so many players it can it can have that at the time but how do you get through that then because like sometimes are you ever built for that for the Rocky Roads I think there's a bit stubbornness again to stick at it and keep believing it's tough at times and I think you need people to stick with you and believe in you as well and trust you and think you'll be alright don't worry about it you're doing the right things you're meaning to the right things you'll be fine you're good enough and all that sort of stuff so I think we're quite quick to from season to season or six months to six months to say that he's good enough he's not good enough I think we were given a lot more time and it was a bit more spread out where would you put him?

28:08I think he's more of an attacker I think I don't see him as a holding midfielder I think he's that little probably that line above with that little bit more freedom and that little bit more I think he could I think there's different ways of defending. You can defend on the higher line a little bit, but defending right deep around your centre-back is a bit of a different thing. It's a little bit different thing. But you can, I've seen him playing a little bit higher with that freedom and create and take the ball in. I think he's got a massive future. I really like him. I think he just needs a bit of patience and that little bit of break again, which I'm sure he'll get.

28:48Who would you build around in this current team now, in the midfield area? Would he be one you'd build around? Yeah, I think for a club, to have a player that's come through the academy and knows the club and feels it, I think you have to have, Man United's got to have an element of that. Always has, always should always, will, you know, like should always have, sorry. And I think to have a talent that he's shown already, you've got to have players that you You can say, right, they get it, they know it. Let's help them, let's build them and stick with them. I think there's definitely a place for them there for sure.

29:30You've obviously been watching the United team play and stuff like that. I'm going to stick with midfield because that's your area of expertise. What does an Amarillo midfielder look like in your eyes and how does that become successful in this team?

29:49again I think I think you can almost overdo of what what it needs I think a good midfielder can play in different ways you know there's I know there's quite a lot made of the kind of formation and how he wants to play but I don't see it being massively different to a lot of other teams you know it's teams are playing similar systems or they build up that way or they'll defend that way um i think if you took to play them too you need to do you need to be able to protect you the the the back frame you need to have a bit of a um defensive note and understanding of positional more than anything um and certainly to on the ball as a man united midfielder you've got to be able to take the ball and play forward and play expressive and um in in different ways so i yeah i don't think it's a it's a massively different role that um i think you're a good midfielder in a playing a two you're not playing you're not asking someone to play as a one and you're on their own and it's a little bit you're playing as a two and you've got protection and i think if you're a good midfielder or a midfielder i think it's you'll be finding it we're in like around that period of recruitment obviously you've been a manager and you've been a coach at Manchester United in this period, how difficult is it identifying players that are going to go in and fit in not only the system but also in like you talk about the size of the club and understanding that, how difficult it is to do that and just talk us through that process of doing it.

31:21Yeah, listen, in the end shaping the team like that, that's the magic ingredient I think, to have the right players to be able to put things in place. Coaching is one thing and adapting and improving plays but if you can if you to pick the right one i think the the challenge for for man united now is it's it's not like i said it's not just about a tactical thing or a technical thing or are you a good player but you've got to deal with everything um and i think the personality and character and and mentality is is almost bigger than anything to play for United you're going to be with a certain talent because you're on the map and you've kind of if the club's looking at you and you're that you're going to be that next bit of and we're saying that and then the club as a club finish near you know close to the bottom part of the league and but still for whatever reason and hopefully for a long time to play for Man United you've got to have more than that you've got to be able to cope with it um so I'd I'd put that down as as much as anything I think there's not much I think there's not much that's the that's the how do you know yeah I remember the boss was saying um you know he had a few chats back in the day and he talked about looking into the backgrounds and what they've done and he said he was a big part of me was because I left at 15 to go to West Ham so he said all right okay he noted that as a as a character of you can cope with that he's taken with that then um i'm not saying that's right for everybody but that was his way of going into the background saying what what's it been like is it is it being easy is it being smooth is looking at someone like you talk about cobby and sometimes the setbacks and they look they shape you they toughen you up they make you better they make so when you get this 27 28 you're hardened your battle it's kind of tough whatever that is you're a bit tougher you know and um so that was that's something you can look into the backgrounds and see what's the kind of the journey been like or the pathway and try to get little bits of have they got something to be able to cope to step in there because same as whatever role you do there manager coach player it's it's it's different to most it really is because it's not just about the football sometimes the football gets lost really doesn't it sometimes it gets lost because people judge everything else thanks guys that's it for part one and we'll be back right after this.

34:22Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. You're either all in on this model, or maybe you're building with another. You're either speed, or is it security? Or you're AWS AI. Don't pick a side. Pick them all. AWS AI is how.

34:46Somebody who kind of flew the nest and kind of went elsewhere and has done ridiculously well, Scott McTominay, you work with. Everyone I speak to says, I love him, great kid. And the little time I've met him, he's always been really, really pleasant and nice. Did he always have that in him, what we've seen at Napoli? he was always um yeah we had a bit of a a kind of few discussions with it about Scott when we were coaching with Ollie and we played him a lot with with with him and Fred and actually had a lot of good success in many ways with the two of them and more defensively more defensively yeah but he he could he he was kind of the old box to box if you like done a bit of everything but more defensive but he was and he was reliable he was um fantastic attitude great to work with but he always had and in training and he always had an eye for goal he always he was great finisher you getting in a box and he had that i never really had it because what there's certain lads getting around the box just that extra bit of time to finish like a lamps you know like um i know lamps was obviously best of the best of that but it's got he's got a sense of that getting in the box and it drops to him like a skulls he's just finding that and he always had it and we tried a couple of times and just speaking the makeup with the team it didn't quite work at that time but there was always something in there where you think he's got goals in him scotty um i'm so happy that he's gone to do work because he deserves it i'm sad that it's not at united because i think he's a he's a um he's kind of the one that you want at the club because he's just drives everything he's a heart and soul and he's um but to see him go on and do well kind of speaks volumes and there's another one you know we've taken that he's had ups and downs um big ups and downs and he's gone on and actually he's not looked back now you know he's he's it's incredible what he's done going over there and people all the fans are going oh you see him why can he do this at my united well how can it not work at my united is it just sometimes timing and why didn't they play him in that position at United, sometimes it's the make-up of the team.

36:54The team, the dynamics, whatever. Look at England. You've had it with England over the years. Why does it not work with them? Sometimes it's not an individual thing, it's a dynamic, it's the make-up of the group, it's the atmosphere surrounding it. It's not always just about that football or that game. There's feelings around it sometimes that affect everyone's judgement. It's not always as straightforward as that. Another player I wanted to talk about, because I think it's important that people understand you as a coach as well and the impact you had on players. A quote here from Paul Pogba, he told me how running without the ball can make the difference in the game.

37:34I call them the Lampard ones, getting into the box, and that helps a lot. Sometimes I go to him and say, do you see something I can do better? And he helps me to improve. they seem to be from someone who really cared about football and wanted to improve all the time. Is that one of your memories of Paul? Yeah, Paul was such a talented player, wasn't he? I remember even when he first came through and… He was a 17, 18-year-old, right? Yeah, and Scolzi just booted him most days and he used to just kick him. But Paul never flinched, did he? He'd take the ball again, take the ball again and over. and he had a natural gift with the ball.

38:12I think probably over the years was what his best position was really. It was a constant kind of trying to evolve with that, of trying to put him in a position where he can affect the game the most. And he'd done it in different ways at different times. Played further forward, played deeper and depending on the game. But he had such a natural gift for football that some of the things he did, not many people could do. When you talk about Scolzi or Giggs in terms of passing and affecting the game in a moment, I think he's up there with them guys. It's just the consistency I think was the thing that, like he had the consistency at Juventus but we didn't really see it at United but you saw moments that you went, that is super elite.

38:53Yeah, there's definitely moments with Paul where you go that was that was special. There's the two parts of it of kind of how you judge a player I suppose and in these moments he was some of the things he did was absolutely fantastic and then there's the consistency like you probably gigs you're scolding and play for so long that kind of getting that level of performance week in week out it's kind of two different things really and Paul certainly had the moments it's an easy that he's coming back now hopefully we see some glimpses of the game yeah it'll be interesting to see how he comes back because you know he's a bit older now as well and having a bit of time off it might help him might be fresh you might come back and all of a sudden we might see we might see um you know all sorts of things for me it'll be interesting to see i just want to talk about you as a coach and a caretaker at united and that transition how quick was that for you yeah it was quick yeah it was rapid yeah um i wasn't i'd done my badges um remember when we sat in that room just thought i'll be like by the way that selection that was was unbelievable i was talking Edwin about it at this soccer the other day and there was Edwin, Vida, Scolzi, me, you, Michael Owen, Shaezy was in there, Wazza was in there, Fletcher was in there, Bez might have been in there.

40:10All sat there doing our be-lines. Imagine the geezer coming in and seeing us all sitting there and thinking what's going on here. On the back of a Champions League game it was mad wasn't it. I was desperate to be a coach, seriously. It's funny though because I was, I'd just done it because I thought I'm going to start doing it. The gaff was big on it when he got your badges, get your badges. And everyone's like, yeah, good one. Like, yeah, I'm playing or whatever. But we've tried to start and I just, when I started, I'd done it more. I didn't know what I wanted to do, whether it was the TV, whether it was pundit, whether it was nothing or whether it was coaching.

40:44I literally didn't know by that stage. And the more I'd done it, I just enjoyed it, to be honest. I enjoyed the coaching. And then when I was coming towards the end, Josie said, I'd like you to stay on the staff next year, which caught me by surprise, to be honest. But I was like, I have to do it. I was enjoying the coaching at the time. And I played the last league game, which was kind of my last game. And that was, I think it was a Saturday and a Sunday morning about half eight. I'll never forget how my phone went. And it was Jose about coaching, about training, about the team for the final.

41:21Straight the next, like literally the next day. and i was like oh that was quick and lisa lisa went what was that i said oh um jose about training and she went god that didn't that didn't last long did it that stopped uh retirement from playing she thought she was gonna get holidays yeah and stuff like that literally really like as soon as i woke up next day and then that was it then i went in straight in um had a good few months learned off jose seeing what how what is what his ideas were how we went about it day in day out great experience really good experience fantastic with me the club at the time and the team at the time was a bit of a difficult it started to be a bit of a difficult season but in terms of for me seeing it and it's an open book and and he was he was great with me he's i hadn't really coached at all so it was he was giving me pointers and all that sort of stuff and you see what goes on behind the scenes that as a player you don't you don't see you know and the planning, the picking the teams, putting benches together, squads, managing players, all that sort of thing was a great experience.

42:24And then the change was Oli came in in December time, I think. And then I stayed on, obviously knew Oli and stayed on with him. So, yeah, it wasn't planned. But once I was in it, I was in it. Just talking about Jose, one of the great managers of our time, ridiculous CV that he's had. What are his super strengths when you look at him and you've worked with him now? You obviously, before, there would have been an assumption about what he's like and then getting in the guts of it with him. He's unbelievable at working a player out quickly, whether that's performance-wise or mentality-wise or attitude-wise or anything.

43:08He said a few things about certain players to me at the time and i was a little bit of like i'm not sure that oh that's a bit extreme or whatever but then over time it proved to be and i was like you've seen that quick and being quite decisive with it in both ways by the way positive and negative times um and that was that was it he just had an eye for that and he'd sense it and he was all on feel of and um and sometimes you say so i learned lot from that of seeing that and and and making calls on on players is and and what you see you're going to get from them in the next six months or a year you know um because i was probably a little bit more always benefit the doubt and i'd be all right you'll be all right you'll be all right we can and it's not it's not always the case christiana you're one of the only people that's actually coached him and played with him there was a hell of a buzz around the place when he came back one that was it was an incredible kind of feeling around those games and then him coming back and um it was just seeing him back around the building was was it was uh was weird but it was so there's there's definitely then for me from a coaching point of view i was really conscious of then treating them very different to when i would treat some of the younger players or the ones that really intend to try to help a lot and trying to develop them he's at the end where you know he is what he is you know and you respect what he is and you give him a few kind of um pointers for the team but it was really you're not going to coach him there's no way I'm coaching him about his runs or wait to finish you should have hit his side foot definitely work with him and what do you what we can work things but it's a different totally different element of coaching to say what I was coaching with some of the other boys where you're trying to really give them some some some help and advice and improve them a lot it's just incredible what he's done incredible what he's done i mean that for me that first year when i signed he didn't score as many goals but it was 2006 2007 he played right wing he was unbelievable unbelievable and then he got a taste of scoring goals after that and then he changed him and he scored 40 odd goals the next year but honestly really that first season after he come back from the world cup with him in wazzo that right when he was on that right wing is an all-round player i've never seen i don't think I've seen that before I have this conversation a lot of people a lot of people talk about but he gets judged on the goals right exactly he's only a goal scorer yeah but that season like I was that was one of them where I'm playing thinking well this is just an absolute dream to play in a team like that team was I know he didn't win the Champions League but that first team that football for that first few months was I was like this is I remember coming up remember Boltland away we were 2-0 up it was one of my first five or six games or something it was a quite early boat ball away we were two and a little bit off time I want one or two and a little bit off time and I remember coming off and gigs he was next to me and we're almost kind of off we just it just clicked and we were flying and gigs he came off and I was like I didn't know whether this was normal or not and I was like anyway I went bad was it that and I thought well if you're saying it and i felt unbelievable coming at half time and uh the gaffer went nuts like nuts and i was like wow two nil up and it was purely just to keep us on our toes again go back they're comfortable don't be comfortable because you're not pushing yourself and then went nuts didn't he and then we ended up winning four nil or something or four one or whatever but um i mean that that time that Football for me that we played at that time was like me coming into the team.

46:56I was like, wow, this is just an absolute, I couldn't even leave my luck. Coming into a team like that, it was just beautiful. Like so, so just dreams, you know what I mean? And Ronnie was that right wing, Giggsie left wing, Baza, Louis, and it was just relentless. Did he, tactically, what was he like then? Cause you played nearer to him then. I've got my own views, but what like, you're playing someone who's a bit more connected to him. purely on Ronnie yeah what was he like tactically although although when you watched him you're going this is the pure entertainer this is George Best reincarnated all the accolades he was getting what was he like to play with tactically I think that first year I think he was um that's what I mean I think there's a it's more rounded and I'm not totally disrespecting Ronnie at all because he's he's like incredible one of the best as ever but I think he was around really rounded player in terms of playing his position doing job both ways disciplined responsible and then obviously went and scored goals which ended up making the difference for us winning things so he was different but i think that first year he he um he was at his best for me because of that as a rounded player um and defensively gaz was at his pump that for that first six months and he got he got injured after christmas didn't he but at that time it was kind of a drilled well drilled and he was part of that well drilled unit at that point and then he went on to score more goals so then that took away a little bit from that but we we were accepting of that we'd do what i'd find i'd do more work for that no problem at all that's where you go become a bit of a team and fitting around it and he was a little bit um on top and even was a was so unselfish and sacrificed himself so much.

48:40What were the other players like in the second time round when he came? Because you were in there so it's quite interesting to hear your thoughts but I always thought that when he came back to United it wasn't just about football. You could utilise him for the experience he has and the young, especially attacking players, feed off that, be sponges. Were they intimidated by him or were they like sponges? I think it was a genuine buzz when he came back. I think everyone was buzzing to see what he was going to bring and he had to manage himself a little bit more. He was smarter then in terms of his body and training-wise and how much he needed to push himself.

49:17Not push himself, but he still scored goals. I'm sure the boys learnt often by just something to the time. We learnt at the time of other players. You learn by watching a lot of the time and they don't always have to tell you things. It's more of the experience of being around it. Because a lot was made of his pressing and I was just thinking he's got 20 something goals out. But was that like something in-house you was like concerned about or was it just... Nah, listen, there's obviously parts of it where you're trying and it's not always an individual thing. You're trying to put the team together and you've got things that you're trying to work on.

49:55He's scored goals, you know. He's always going to score, he always has and he's continuing to do it, know it's what he does he's just drilled on goals yeah now and before all right no no no we're gonna talk after you go and get a coffee boss we're doing no we're just finishing now don't worry this is not for you we're gonna get a bit of food with you after you've not dressed for the camera boss have you you're not dressed up for the cameras have a quick coffee boss it will be were you in a sec? Did you think this was for you?

50:34He's behind us so I can't say too much but what was he like for you how important was the manager for you? No massive I think when I just coming and when I was speaking to him before I came and then the phone calls and it was that kind of feeling of i don't say intimidation but respect of aura and and and understanding of like this is it's a hell of an opportunity you know to for me to the fact that he even wants me was like um and then i think just coming into the environment as much as anything really for me when I came in first day or two and being around them and then speaking to him and I speak to him more now than I probably did when I was playing because there was not really any need at that point and I was always one that if he was happy regardless of anything else the boys boys are happy he was happy I'm absolutely sound I don't care what else is going on around the outside anything ups downs whoever's saying anything don't give one um thing about that it's weird because even the england manager you didn't really it was like as long as yeah kerrington's fine yeah old chafford's fine yeah guys never said about living on an island at once didn't he says it's like living on an island it literally is it's like no one else matters um there was no distractions from the outside and then that come come from the boss you know that's that was the way it was and then the boys being were around him for so long just fed off it and the end it was the boys that ran the dressing room really and and um you come into that environment but literally i never really had to speak to him never when he's office about i played for seven years i played with him i probably went in his office three or four times that's it was it was never a thing really i didn't need to as long as i was in the team and i was playing and a little bit here and there on the training ground and and obviously team talks and and things that you remember i was that was enough for me you're probably one of the only people you and scolzy that never got a hair dryer off him he gave me one actually did he yeah i remember it do you remember the club world cup away tokyo the final club world cup in japan remember we went down to ten men then we were one one nil um the other thing or the only thing i remember about that tip was burbo with his mask on we almost lost burbo on that trip he was ill he never come back oh but we went on that trip and it's like he got covered before covered was thing yeah maybe lost him for three days but i remember half time in that one and uh i need to ask him about that there's a reason why actually because it was just verbally assault yeah it just went for me and i remember a couple of lads i was a bit harsh whatever whatever reason it was but i was fine i was all right with that i had no problem at all but um yeah there's certain lads got away with it certain lads he kind of used and and probably used them to to hit other boys as well but I remember there was one at Arsenal actually after we lost at Arsenal.

53:37Remember when we lost at the Emirates and the guy come in to do the drugs? Remember that one? He lost the last minute. Yeah, he got destroyed. You took one in Bayern as well, didn't you? Yeah, Bayern was a bad one. I was sat next to you, I remember that one. I kept chirping back and then he kept spitting on me. I was like, leave it, leave it. I think it's like you say, you only get through them moments and the team doesn't get to stabilise with moments like that. because other clubs I think that's like a moment that lasts a month. Whereas, you know, it's like it happens. Gone, yeah. 24 hours, it's gone.

54:09Do you know what I mean? For the betterment of the team. Yeah, and if you're going to have another game in three days, once that next game is getting prepared for and out of the way, whatever's happened four days ago, totally irrelevant. You're just banging on. Even with the Carabao Cups and things like that, you'd win it and it was parked. It was just like, what's next? And it wasn't even a thing. so good or bad you know it's always just park done see you later that's it move on move on move on i've probably never enjoyed it as much um the wins probably didn't actually enjoy it but i don't think you keep winning if you enjoy it too much and i'd take i'd take it winning then yeah all day long rather than a big big big big celebration for ages and making the most of it and then all of a sudden you don't win again um what made me realize i'm at a different type of club especially I think there's I think there's different moments that you go like this is this is a different club completely so anything else but I remember we won the Carabao Cup and the Carabao Cup when we were sitting in the changing room after winning it was just sat in the corner on its own but normally people got pictures of the trophies and they're carrying it around and they celebrate the Carabao Cup was on its own not even wet with any champagne it was I couldn't believe what I was saying I was sitting there thinking well okay we've got a big game tuesday and that really told me it's amazing how quick you buy into that though because like this you'd think from not winning something to come and winning something you'd think wow it's amazing but you've won something and all of a sudden because of the environments like that you just go right okay you embrace it and you go okay next one then and you kind of just become that it's it's mad how quick you can change because i never thought i would have been like that no win or lose have a booze if you draw off somebody yeah just the last thing before we go I think England I think is interesting as well I've always considered you one of the best midfielders around but you played in a time when they were great midfielders as well alongside yourself and didn't play how was that for you and dealing with that not being picked when you know how good you are there's a couple of sides to that to be honest and

56:19that's not the gaffer's phone

56:34a couple of sites in that to be fair so i i always put united first right because it was such a thing so i was leave united to go ringman but what am i going to be like when i go back to united so and then once i got to united i don't know why i got it was it was more of in yeah it was more of it was just that was my life really and then the england because i wasn't playing that much i was in and out my main concern was being back for that saturday being fit ready for that saturday to to be um i couldn't let up do you know what i mean i wanted to play saturday for united and i wanted to play for the rest of the season and that was um and whether that was to do with not playing a bit with England and in and out a little bit and I don't know it just never really I never really I played some games played all right played some games didn't play great or never really felt that I was established you know what I mean and I never played enough games on the bounce to actually feel that you're a part of it really part of it so I always felt a little bit around and then because of that probably it was a bit of a circle then again even the United become even more important than fitting I've got to get myself right for that it is what it is you know there's different managers different styles different players some fantastic players just talking about those players we mentioned you've got Skolls Lampard Gerrard that's the old debate we everyone always has in your mind who's the best out of them three I just I always say Skolls and listen Steve and Frank are incredible incredible players but I I always say Scorsi probably I played so much with him and I think he's a natural gift at his brain and how he played for his physical attributes and you know not being particularly quick or big and strong and being able to control any game in the world basically at certain times the way he played I just really enjoyed playing with him you know there's a partnership there's an understanding there I just think he's yeah he's bordering on genius the way he played the game I have to say I've not seen anyone play the game in that way and he certainly played for the team and played with me which I just love playing with him.

58:49Last thing before we go now and get a bit of food we always do a five-a-side team with best players you've played with no goalkeepers they don't count all right who's gonna be in a five-a-side team? What about when you went and goal at Portsmouth? Just leave them ones there they're the things we want to forget. How big was that shirt? Oh mate, it's unreal. It's Edwin's, wasn't it? Was it Edwin's style? I was like, you know, Thomas Kusak. Really massive. Should have won the treble that year. Don't man, don't. I think about stuff like that more than I do. It kills me that. I missed from that far out.

59:18Did you? Well, I missed, I couldn't get it in this damn game. It's a mad way to remember. We would have won the treble that year. Because of you we didn't. Yeah, yeah. I'll take that. I'm all asleep. So go on, five-a-side team. We've had some great teams put forward. give me your father side team best page you played with you defender cheers mate because i'm falling out we won't fall out yeah we won't fall out i'll put you i'll go scolzy

59:50gigsy was a runny wow wow who am i leaving out of that steven gerrard Lamps Joe Colb West Ham Don't know What we lost No Did you play Modric? No I didn't play with him No To be fair no Are United anyone? No you can't I think you've got The cream of the crop I'd say that was Probably because That time Yeah There's obviously There's a few that But I think Just don't know You spoke about A lot of them players Just give me a little bit On Wazza How good was Wazza? Honestly mate You compare all the players now of who does what. He could do everything. I loved playing with him. He was a bit like Scolese, there was that understanding.

1:00:40And I was even playing with him. We played that soccer game a few weeks ago. It's amazing. And he was up against Vido actually, it was quite funny. But even then, when I get it and I take that touch and he's there at the right time. i was a bit slower he was a bit slower but it's like it's it's mad that understanding that you just you get and you just you never lose it um it's mad because i went for a bit of food with him the other day he said exactly what you just said almost word for word did he yeah yeah i haven't even spoken about it um and it's just amazing that you just that little that little opposite side and you just pull off you know there's a right side center off disaster for the pulling that side because you can't go in yeah and you just had that little move off on that angle all the time um but you could play as a 10 he had a football brain understood the game quick like quicker than people ever give him credit for aggressive horrible flat tackles in the box remember before training oh you put him in your team every day of the week you'd want him with you you'd want him in every scenario you'd take him um but just gifted like He scored goals, big goals, could defend, could play left, could play right, just all-round unbelievable, unbelievable player.

1:01:56Especially when he's even played up top in 2010, when he played up top, it was a nine on his own. He scored 37 goals. Yeah, he just could do anything, but it wasn't enough for him. He wanted to be more of a team, more involved. I don't think he gets enough credit for how good he was over that period of time. So, listen Mike, not seen you for a while, but it's been a pleasure. Always great to catch up. I don't know, mate. We'll get on the blastoid a bit. A bit of hats and garages. Lovely, lovely to see you. Nice one, mate. Good luck.

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