Ryan Giggs On 40 Years Of Fergie: The Hairdryer, De Gea Dilemma & Tactical Secrets

0:00Guessing is for game shows, not your business. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT. With AI grounded in your context to get work done and done right. It's a new Workday. I think he's gone for me and then he's looked on his shoulders at some bloke. He's just sitting there. He's just stood there. Who the fuck are you? Get out, he went. And he went, no, I've got to stay here. I'm the drug tester. I've gone, oh, no. Just got beat 2-1 and he has absolutely destroyed him. What do you mean? No, get out now. Get out. And he's just, Albert, get him out. Get him out of my sight.

0:41And the guy has just gone, oh, yeah. Go study the showers. Welcome to this special episode of The Debrief. I'm here with Ryan Giggs. I don't think there's any one better place to discuss this topic with me today. because this week sees the 40th anniversary of Sir Alex Ferguson's appointment at Manchester United. We've all heard about what the hairdryer was like and celebrated everything he's won, but today you're going to hear about what the boss was really like.

1:11Was you in the meeting there? Yeah. Who was the other goalkeeper? Edwin, wasn't it? No. It was before... It was after Edwin. so it was it was Ben Amos and someone else I think it was yeah it was Thomas it was Thomas it was Thomas it was Thomas or David or Ben or Ben yeah because Ben had like come through and he was doing all right yeah do you remember who you said because I don't think no Scolzi said neither Scotty said none of them Scotty said none of them and I think I think I don't think any of us said David no no everyone because he was that he was having such a bad time but we knew he was a good keeper but at that time I mean he's obviously an unbelievable goalkeeper but at that time everyone was just putting corners right on top of him remember and just bullying him we just thought he was so fragile wasn't he yeah but you think about that yeah what 18 year old goalkeeper have we seen in the Premier League he's the only one there ain't like who come in and stay like even Trafford goes to City he gets shipped out immediately gone he was like 21 22 but the manager the manager was the biggest thing for him yeah confidence not even us as a player because I think if he looked around us to be fair I should I I should talk to him and go like David you ought to go but I think 99 % of the change room would probably look he could feel people are doing like look at him like that like fucking and he's all over the gaff.

2:37But the manager was the main thing. Right, let's go. We ready? So Giggsie, you played almost a thousand games for the manager. But when was, roll this back, when was the first time you actually met him? He came to watch me. What age was that? I was 13. Okay. So I was 13. I was obviously at City at the time. He'd heard that I was at City, I was a United fan. and came to watch me play. A few weeks later, it was the half term and I spent a week at United training. So I met him properly then really. And yeah, that was it. What's that like? What's the feat? Because obviously he's Alex Ferguson at the time.

3:28I think I was all right then because you hadn't really heard what he was like. and you're a young lad you're cocky you know obviously confidence within yourself but yeah it was still I didn't understand a word he said because it's 30 86 87 so he just signed for United he'd only just come so strong accent him and Archie Knox's assistant couldn't understand him so half the time I just spent like time just nodding and agreeing with him and just saying yeah yeah boss yeah and that was it really but you probably know he's just knew everyone's name You know, all the lads who I was playing with at the time, all the schoolboys knew all the names and would come over and sit with us at the cliff and have a joke with us.

4:10It was unbelievable. Do you know, most people that I see have spent a good considerable amount of time with him always mention that, that he took time to know everyone's name around in the environment that he was working in. Listen, we were at the cliff. It was really tight. You know, you were literally on the next table to Mark Hughes, Brian Robertson at 13. But he would obviously sit with the staff, then sit with the first team players, and then we would come in after for our lunch or whatever, all the schoolboys, and he'd come down and sit with you and just chat with you. And it was something that you don't forget because it's just them little moments that, no matter how scary he was, because he was at the time, he was this massive figure, thick Scottish accent, like I say, couldn't understand a word you said, but he just sat down with you and just having a laugh and a joke with you and just knew the last game that you played and what you'd done in training and just knew your different strengths and what you were good at.

5:05And it was just that little personal touch that made him different. Fast forward now to the other side of your career and personally, especially for you, you adapted your game from being like a flying winger who could take on full backs on the outside, etc. to playing a bit more centrally. What was his role in that adaptation of your game at that time of your career, about 30 to 36, weren't you? I think it was probably even a bit before that. I was having problems with my hamstrings, but wasn't as quick as when I was 18, 19. And I was trying to adapt my game a little bit myself and trying to work out what sort of player that I wanted to be later in my career.

5:46And I think the best thing that he gave me was time because I went through a sort of transitional period where I perhaps wasn't, like I say, that flying winger and perhaps wasn't sort of that electric pace. And he just gave me time to just adapt my game, which is not weird to say, but it's like, what do you mean to give you time? He just, he let me evolve into that role by, and, you know, buying someone like Patrice, who was brilliant for me, who just bombed forward. and we instantly had a connection. But yeah, he seen what I was doing. He wanted, as a winger, you're just relying on service and I used to get frustrated sometimes.

6:33So as soon as I went into midfield, I would tell him how much I loved it. And he would go, right, okay then, yeah. Just, you know, he wouldn't put me centre mid maybe, but he'd, right, we'll tuck in and just get in them little pockets. So them little things, him telling me them little things, but also myself just sharing with him where I saw my game going in the future. Did you have much time alone with him in them situations? Because I remember he'd pull me sometimes in his office or walking out or walking in from the training pitch. His conversations weren't that long. I don't think he had enough time really to give you loads of time, but it was a short and sharp conversation that you always left knowing where you stood with him.

7:14I think that was, because he never took training, I think that was huge. And I don't think enough managers and coaches do that, have that personal touch on individuals. Because like you say, now there's 26 players. And how are you supposed to speak to each? And just give them little nuggets of information that can be massive for you as an individual. So now it's like coaches, they take training, then they go inside, they've got to do press conferences. The manager stood outside watching in, let in Steve McLaren Carlos Kiroz Brian Kidd Mick Phelan Rene all these people just he then had the time like you say sometimes he used to walk on the pitch didn't he oh mate during training during training the ball would be coming to you and the gaff would be sat suddenly the gaff would be the ball's coming to me I remember that I used to when I first joined I used to think what's he doing on his big big grey puffer I used to think what's he doing on the pitch but he wouldn't even he'd be oblivious because something it's just come in his head he just walks straight into the pitch that actually murdered me oh man but like but like you say them little moments walking off the pitch or coming sitting down with you at lunch and then for me later in my career where i would dodge him for 10 15 years now it would be you'd sit down with him have a cup of tea and have a grown-up conversation do you think he was like underrated tactically because i think a lot of people talk about like tactical manners and his name never really comes up in that do you what do you think oh yeah i mean you don't win that much without being brilliant uh tactically and he was.

8:45Just them little sort of moments in big games, especially in big games. I think in the league, not so much because we had the best players, obviously the best manager. We could normally just steamroll teams. But then big games, perhaps in the league, but most of all in the Champions League, he would tweak it a bit. Have you got any memories of those games? I can think of a couple like Jason Park with Perla. I think he was like, he dictated all the games for AC Milan and the manager went right are you going to go on him do you remember that yeah yeah he did that he did it earlier I think it was one of the first times that we played event as he did Ronnie Johnson on Zidane and it's you don't see it anymore do you don't man to man I got it I got man to man marked once it was horrible was it it was a Neil Warnock team so it was Notts County when they were in it was the first division it was before the Premier League and yeah I got man marked I didn't get a kick and it's weird.

9:44You know the first five minutes of the game, like you're walking and he's just on your shoulder and it was horrible and I had a horrendous game and I didn't get a kick. Yeah, so it is horrible, but also I think... How would you tell a player to deal with a man-to-man knowing you've experienced it now, you've seen it? How would you deal with that as a player now? I would, yeah, I would say take him to places where he doesn't want to go. That can, you know, say I get man-marked now, I say Patrice, you know, if you're playing behind me, he's all over me, just bomb forward and I'll just look after your man.

10:16Don't worry about defending, I'll do all your defending. So little bits like that, but it's not easy. I remember Ronnie Onsen doing it on Zidane. And Ronnie was a good player. Ronnie was like... He's underrated him, I think. He's underrated. And he was... Ask anyone who played with him. If he got older in training, you're not getting out of it. And he was quick. Same physique as Zidane. Listen, Zidane was unbelievable. But also, I think... But that was like a mismatch, though. How did the manager see that? What was the specifics he'd give him? I think just he would joke about it. The manager would go, right.

10:50Because you have to have a sort of special mindset. You don't grow up as a footballer thinking, I'm going to follow someone around. I'm going to man-mark someone. So first of all, you have to sell it to him. He's the main man. If you stop him, then we'll go a long way to winning this game. But also, if we win the ball, I don't want you to stay with him. run off him and you'll get chances so little things like that right if i run off him i could get goal there so them little things that he would tell them but then he would joke about it listen if he goes to the toilet you follow him if he goes and sees his grand you follow he would a little bit of like humor in it and for us it would be like right okay then that's the dance store sorted right now it's up to me to go to go and win the game it's not easy to to sell you know to someone You're going to go man-mark someone.

11:39It is mad. I mean, like... Have you ever man-marked anyone? No, I never got asked. I don't think I was maybe that didn't... weren't seen as that profile of player to do it. I think you've got to be a certain type. Like, Jason Park was that like... Like, you tell Jason Park to do a job. Yeah. He will do exactly what you said and no more. That's it. That's all he's doing. And he'll be delighted and he won't even come off the pitch and say anything. Whereas maybe I wanted to get with the ball maybe too much for someone to think I can give Rio that and just do that. and he might not Ria might get distracted with what he wants to do maybe I don't know but like if you're against a top centre forward or someone who likes to drop in he would wouldn't be so much man marking he'd probably tell you to go with him don't drop off yeah yeah so little details like that so Luis Suarez was a perfect one he was brilliant so Luis Suarez that year was terrorising everybody and I remember the manager before the game against Liverpool said to me Ria one of those moments again 30 seconds but Ria listen Suarez at the weekend end if you if you go in there and try and win the ball early it'll ricochet and he'll get out of it and he'll read you and go if you just delay and wait he'll turn back pass it back and i went into the game that's all i thought about getting into it because i'm going to get into 1v1s against him at some point two or three times a half yeah delay delay patience he never didn't try didn't even try to go past me turned away pass it back look for another angle it was just those little details there he did that a lot he did that a lot with players if we go back earlier king cladsy geninio these sort of players you're like let them dribble don't dive in because they'll just nick it away so he did that a lot with like let him make the first move rather than you they want you to dive yeah yeah like nani used to be like he'd want you to come in because they're such quick quick uh reactions they can just go yeah but when you're in the midst of like playing those little details sometimes don't come to your mind because you're thinking about the bigger picture all the time, about the game and the 11 players on the opposite team.

13:35So, yeah, you need that little bit. Did he ever single you out for a specific role in big games? Yeah, he would. He'd identified perhaps a weakness in a team and just go to me or another player and just say, listen, this is potentially a weakness. He did it, I remember, in a Champions League game against Chelsea. And it was the same thing walking off the training ground. And he said, listen, I'm going to play you against Chelsea. I'm going to play you centre mid. You'll be against Balak, obviously a top player. You've got to do your defensive duties because if he gets in the box, he's a threat.

14:14But I feel like he will struggle with someone dribbling against him, especially in midfield. He's not used to it. He's big. You know, you'll unbalance him. So I've gone, right. Yeah. And I was I was older than I was like, I think it was late 30. So I'm like, right, great. I'm playing in the big game. Wait a minute, boss, it's two and a half weeks away. And we got Liverpool at the weekend. He went, forget about Liverpool. Just get your head right for Chelsea. Seriously. So I'm like, two and a half weeks getting ready for a game. But he knew that he could trust me that I would prepare for that game.

14:49And I was subbing a few games. I'd come on. But ultimately, just concentrate on Chelsea. But you just forget about the weekend. You ain't involved. That's another one. The way he used to get you motivated for games. He'd get you motivated from over here, but hit you with a body blow there, but keep you in tune for this. He had a knack of doing that. He knocked my door once, morning in Liverpool, but I'd had loads of injuries. It was Chelsea as well, actually. He said, look at the door, I looked through the keyhole. I just used to sit back down on the bed, don't answer. Don't answer. Now he's going to drop me.

15:24No, I'm not answering. that's like me so he comes to the door and i went oh no boss so he's open the door and he come in and he went how you doing son like it was all upbeat and i was like oh okay it could be all right he said uh yeah how's your as your injuries i said yeah i feel all right boss i feel right this morning good we've got chelsea coming up in the champions league on tuesday or wednesday it was and i went and i was going yeah but he said that that's the game where you help us win that game concentrate so i'm thinking like seven foot two i am feel brilliant best in the world and he went but today you're not playing it was morning the Liverpool game and I was like boss don't do this please he went no no no you can't do two games back to back that quick after the injury you've had I said boss I'm alright I'm fine he says Rio I've made my decision and walked out I was sitting there on the edge of the bed going oh I can't believe it and by the time I got to the stadium I was absolutely fine supporting the lads and what not in the changing I'm not thinking about yourself because he just had a way of just getting you to be the best version of yourself around your teammates which was good but it's mad because you're in a unique position because obviously almost a thousand games you played for him.

16:28How did that relationship evolve over time from being a young player then to being an experienced member of the team? Oh yeah, it evolved massively. Like I say from 13, 14 year old and then getting into the first team at an early age. I would avoid him because you'd seen the hairdryer that he'd give so many people. He's a scary character. You're young, you just want to play football. fast forward 15-20 years and then literally be getting called in the office, sit down with him for a cup of tea, chat with him on the coach, things that you would never ever dream of doing early and just chatting about you know the games or other stuff so yeah it evolved from you know sort of teacher pupil to a little bit more just on a level playing field.

17:18Did he have used like a sounding board at all at times like yeah inexperienced and yeah because he would you'll know he was never in the dressing room at the training ground people don't believe it when i say that to people no i've what 20 odd years i've probably seen him five times and you knew oh where was i last night you just instantly go where was i focus in here please don't be me you know but um yeah so he would i was everyone i was everyone feeling especially like you know if we weren't doing so well um you know we got to get the lads up beat you know we still got a lot to play for and just them little things where um he would you know just put something in your mind that he knew that you would then go to the lads and especially difficult moments try and get him a little bit more upbeat and a little bit more positive.

18:18It couldn't have been easy going in his office and asking him about Christmas parties and stuff like that, wouldn't it? Like, we go out, we're going to go, what date do you reckon? He was always all right with that. He was, yeah, still you would, but he wanted, you know, like pre-season, he would give you a night off. Unreal. Right, lads, just, there's no curfews, really, because I think curfews are dangerous because lads will come in a bit later. Oh, he's broken. So he just said, make sure that, you know, you look after yourself and especially the experienced players was you in new york when he had a go at me once yeah what was it we were treading we were he had a massive go at me for no for i didn't i hadn't done anything wrong and um i think we'd been on a night out and there was something that come out was it the year seba was there yeah yeah yeah i think seba was there yeah so it was before um training and he a massive go at me um so you know you should know better blah blah blah and i pulled him at the end and i never had the part just used to take it really i pulled him there boss what what was all that about says you know that's bang out of order he went you're right but there's a lot of young lads there and if they think that you're not untouchable then they'll they know that they can step out of line if they know that i'm having a pop at you they know that i'll have a pop at anyone yeah so i apologize if i went a little bit too far but i so them little things like uh it wasn't very nice because he was he was bang out of order to be fair usually i just took it but i pulled him and just said you were bang out of order there and he says yeah you're right but i just wanted to let the young lads know that no one's untouchable it's mad because you say that and i say it's my mates a lot even though you knew what he was doing your head used to still go all right when he used to do to you because i remember we played i don't know we played against every now and again it drill you in a half time and go giggsie why are you there and you've made one mistake and he's on that laser focus on that mistake and i could see your head going but he's wanting to hit you for other pitty reaction from the players more than anything but i used to think oh giggsie's head's flown off here do you remember that time when we um when he pulled us to go and speak to like the senior players and he's speaking about david de gea yeah remember that because a lot of people i don't know if i even managed to do that now where they have like a senior group where they talk about and bounce ideas off remember that well yeah i mean we just bought david obviously teenager yeah and yeah that just doesn't happen at a special uh massive club like united buying a young keeper but he was so special but he was having a tough time you know teams were putting corners and crosses and just smashing into him and just he was obviously like that he wasn't fully grown yet and he pulled us we were playing chelsea um away and was you in the meet yeah yeah it was four or five of us i think you scolzy was never i think that might have been there it was young keeper ben amos thomas kushak and david were at the club at the time and he asked us and david was having such a bad time you know who should i play against chelsea and i said i I think I said Thomas.

21:31I think a few people said Ben Amos because he'd come on and done all right. But not one of us said David. Scolzi said none of them. He said none of them. Find someone else, he said. That is Scolzi all over. But yeah, David played. So he would get you in. He would ask you advice but then make his own decision because not one of us said David at the time because it was obviously a huge game. going to Chelsea and he was fragile at the time. He played David. I think we won the game and David did all right. So I think without the manager's backing and support and comfort, he would have given David and confidence he would have given him.

22:10I don't know if he would have survived, you know. No, I know. Without the manager. I know. The manager's obviously seen the potential and obviously Steely, I think was one of the ones who scouted him. Without that backing, I think it's difficult. It's such a big position at the club. But every player would have probably gone through that where the manager just backed you and just then you wanted to obviously give back and do as best you can. But an 18-year-old goalkeeper in the Premier League is just like it's a rare thing what was the gaffer like around like big moments like for instance I don't know the goal you scored against Arsenal in the FA Cup or the night of winning the Champions League on the two occasions you did what's what's it like then?

22:47I don't recollect too many times that after a game no matter what I'd done I scored a winning goal great goal like you know scored an important goal like the Arsenal goal him coming up to me and just going that was brilliant he just didn't I think he did it to the likes of Cristiano Eric those sort of players who needed it and he felt that he needed to do that but I think most players he was all about the team and no matter how many special moments you'd produce he wouldn't single you out as doing brilliant things and it was always on to the next game the Arsenal game where I scored that goal we had important league game at the weekend and we had Juventus in the replay of the semi-final so it was always on to the next game it's weird that me and Emmanuel Vinic used to sit there in the steam room sometimes on a sauna when's he going to talk about us in the rally press conference speaking about Giggsie speaking about Tevez speaking about you when's he speaking about us what are we doing we're doing nothing I think he sometimes he just picked people out that I don't need to speak to you but those guys doing it.

23:55It's truly safe. Right, man, we've got loads still to come, right, on this pod, but we'll be back shortly after this.

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24:41With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. I can remember him saying a couple of times in training on Monday, you're brilliant at the weekend. Maybe once or twice. And that's how many years you spent?

25:1920 odd years, yeah. Just a thousand games? Wow, that's a joke. But that, yeah. I didn't need it, to be fair. I mean, everyone does need it. No, I think everyone would like it. Everyone would like it. We don't all need it. And I think there was that little bit, what do I need to do? Right, okay, I'll show him. I'll show him at the weekend. That's true. Do you know another thing about the manager, which I think is hard to relate to people when you talk about him, is what he was like around big games. And one of the things that always stood out to me about you you might have a different opinion but he never really talked about the game in the last meeting so much because obviously you do a lot of your meet your prep before that but that last moment you have with him a lot of the time he's telling you stories yeah man yeah he was anything upbringing you know his upbringing you think you're um working class you're not i'll show you what working class is growing up in the shipyards and just yeah he would go and yeah you'd see the foreign lads going when's he going to tell us what we're doing where we're going to press and i did the story a million times so i'm like geez not this again um but yeah he was he was it was weird yeah because like you say big games and you're expecting that tactical sort of insight but we've done it during the week and he would i don't know it was it was obviously to to g you up and to get you ready for the game but also just to take you away a little bit because it was only an hour and a half before kickoff wasn't it it wasn't two hours before kickoff or whatever he would do it do you remember when he brought the miners over from chili when they were stuck underground yeah and these these guys was on the bikes remember in the gym and these guys just walked in and it was like who are these guys and training stopped and he explained who they were yeah and that was like the team talk before the foot before the game the next day, wasn't it?

27:08I've not got to say anything, guys. Them guys, that's hard work. Teamwork. Yeah, I had that picture of the guys in New York as well. Up on the building. So, you know, if you think you've got a tough job, you know, one person a week used to die building Empire State building or some of that, that's proper work, you know. So, yeah, he would very much take you away from the football side and just give them little personal sort of chats about just trying to get you motivated in a different way and it motivated him i think it motivated him you could see he was frothing at the mouth sometimes when he's talking about it a bit like when he had the hair dryer treatment sometimes i i got here a couple of times i remember buying me did you pay buy me nick away that time and i was i was he made a substitution berber come on and i was like what you do after skulls he got sent off oh yeah yeah and he brought berber on and i was like i was on the pitch going gesturing to the what are you doing and then i was going mad in the tunnel screaming i remember van bom were looking at me like i was an alien because i was screaming and then coming to change him and he went shut to albie shut the door and he just come over the top of me and just started just he destroyed you ever question us in the stadium again like that you i don't know who you think you are yeah and i was going back but we lost but shouting and everything i remember never sitting to my right and said, Ria, just leave it.

28:31I said, you know I'm fucking right. But, you just, you can't win in those situations. No, you can't win. And, you know, I used to sit next to Bex and Bex used to get it. I used to get it. And we just used to both, I used to nudge Bex and go, if Bex was getting it, I'd go, don't say a word, don't say a word. And Bex, next week, I'd be getting it. Bex would be like, don't say anything, don't say anything. And you just couldn't help it. But I think he liked it. He didn't want you to just sit there. As long as it didn't overstep the mark, yeah, I overstepped the mark a couple of times, got fined two weeks wages, but not often did I overstep the mark.

29:10But yeah, I think he liked having to go back at him. I think if he knew that you were coming from a team standpoint, you were someone who thought about the team and weren't a selfish individual, I think he accepted certain parts of that coming back. but if he thought you were trying to be more about an individual, I think that's when he'd get a bit peeved and he wouldn't accept when you're coming back from me. That's when I used to see stuff. Was you at the Emirates when the drug test had come in? He destroyed him. I remember. Do you remember that? We got bit. It was when Henry scored late. Yeah, yeah.

29:43I remember. We were 1-0 up, weren't we? We scored two goals late. I gave the ball away. We were up the other end and he had a pop at me. I think he was having a pop at me at the time. So when he'd come in, first of all, he couldn't get the TV off. Remember the TV behind? He couldn't get the TV off, so he was getting madder and madder. I think he's gone for me. And then he's looked on his shoulders. Some bloke. Just stood there. The fuck are you? Get out, he went. And he went, no, I've got to stay here. I'm the drug tester. I've gone, oh, no. Just got beat 2-1. And he has absolutely destroyed him.

30:22what do you mean no get out now get out and he's just albert get him out get him out of my sight oh and the guy has just gone stood in the showers he was mad i used to figure i used to think please like do not come to me please you almost like your head would shrink in your shoulders wouldn't it and just try and stay out the way but was there any other because you've obviously been there a long time longer than anybody is there any other moments with other people you saw that was like funny or mad moments Oh, it was loads, yeah. I mean, early days was ridiculous. I remember Inci getting it, Norwich away.

31:00We won the game. And Norwich were top team then. They were beat Bayern Munich. They were flying. They were top of the league. And we went down there and beat them. And I think last minute, Inci could have played me in. He's had a shot and the gaffer's gone mad. It was last minute of the game. We'd won the game and he's gone mad. And Inci's gone, sit down. No way. Yeah. I'm like no so we've got in the changing rooms the manager's gone to fight him and there's three or four people holding the manager off Incy's not backing down and just literally just the whole team trying to separate them and he wanted to fight him it's the same Schmeichel at Anfield when we were 3-0 up drew 3-3 and he went for went for Pete and I think Pete said he was going to leave i think pete yeah and they they managed sorting it out but yeah that brutal just brutal just going at each other no he was he was right even like pizza game remember he was crying bananas after that when someone threw a pizza he didn't care he just like he wasn't the manager of man united then back to the streets yeah yeah i was uh yeah i think i seen i was next to sol and i was like Sol calm down calm down I'm next to the wrong person here I'm not fighting Sol Sol you alright mate yeah what's going on here just in that as well you know I was talking about big games before or games in general when things weren't going to plan what was it what was it like from your perspective in terms of like changing things or would he just let it just sit out you've got any experiences like that yeah we played I think it was 97 we were playing Juventus i think it was the time when ronnie was um marking sedan yeah but we'd a lot of the times we would get done because we were playing exactly like we would play in the league 4-4-2 and me and bex would be out wide you know keeney and skulls here would be everywhere and you come up against you know david's uh ned ved you know um cameron azy all these little players who could play in the pockets weren't necessarily wingers and we would get overrun in midfield.

33:18There was this one time we were playing and we were just wide, me and Bex, he'd come in at halftime and he just battered us, just said, what are you doing? He said, can you not see you getting overrun in midfield? Just thicken it up, just come in a little bit more. You're not playing out wide now. OK, you've got the odd time where you can go out wide, but let's control midfield. If we control midfield, we'll win the game. And he went just mad at us because he said, you know, you're not playing in the Premier League now, you're playing against Juventus. playing against the best team in the world.

33:46And you can't do that. So he changed it. And very often, you know, he tried to, obviously mentioned Seba Varon before, he tried by buying Seba, just having that three in midfield and playing a more 4-3-3 with Seba just off-rood. So I think he always wanted to evolve in that sort of three in midfield, but because we were so good at 4-4-2, he used to get the ump with a 4-4-2, he said, we don't play 4-4-2. Centre-forward don't play up front. Eric drops in, Teddy drops in, Yorkie drops in. We'd always have that number 10 who would drop in. So the manager used to get the ump with, when he used to say we used to play 4-4-2.

34:36So in the end, we had to adapt, whether it's Bex playing a little bit more inside, me playing a bit wider or vice versa, me playing a little bit more inside or the number 10 dropping in and just making that third midfielder. So we evolved over time whereas we just couldn't play that sort of 4-4-2 attacking football which would just overrun teams in the league. You mentioned Bex there yeah, what was Bex like when he was getting a bollocking? Me and Bex used to get it a lot, I think just the high standards that obviously we set and then if you drop below them then um he would have a pop at you and especially me and bex because i think he's seen us too as sort of like the match winners and making things happen but yeah me and bex were the same you know just go back at him just and at the time it's like you're watching it and you're going oh please lads just because i watched it from the outside you know people i'm gonna go it says i'm gonna go at you just real please be quiet but you couldn't help it you couldn't help it you you just finished the game well it's half time it's not going right you're frustrated you would just have a pop back at him um i like to say i think he liked that but i think he had that that humility i think the gaffer and i think like you said before about it if he was wrong he'd always apologize and he'd see the errors in his way a bit like when the boot hit bex in the face you see straight away he was devastated yeah yeah yeah yeah mad time yeah but he it they all also it would be forgotten the next day so he wouldn't carry it on the next day out training you know he'd say hello to you and you know he's let on to me he's gone you know what I mean because then you're a lot of calm and you're thinking right shouldn't have said that shouldn't have said this but it was it was gone it wasn't he didn't drag it out for a week I mean sometimes he might not play the next game but as far as like your relationship you know he was it was fine even going back to that point about with the boot with Bex it's mad that he can get that angry that upset and caused that much of a friction in the group in that moment over something tactical that he'd highlight before a game it's mad that isn't it I used to think how's it got to this it's about a game of football yeah I know he did there's a theme here with Juventus he did it with me we were playing we played tried to play 4-3-3 against Juventus and they absolutely battered us first half it was me left midfield but in the middle Bex right midfield and up front was Paborski Jordi Cruyff and Eric so they were the three front lads and we were just I couldn't play there Bex we were struggling but he ended up being on his own because we just wanted to and he went for me at half time and I just went it's not working Eric can't play up front on his own because he just wants to drop in and he went for me I've got the drink that we used to have threw it to the skip and he's just gone Chucky get changed gigs you're off and I've gone like he just cut me down like that it's another sign though it's just telling people don't try and question me in front of everybody because you'll come off that's worse that's worse because we didn't even have it I went mad and he just didn't even come back to me went right off McClay you're on it's cold isn't it that's cold that journey home must have been long it was horrible yeah this man when you was on the first time you took you spoke about the values in the DNA of the club.

38:00I didn't ask you at the time, but I've always thought about it since. Was that something that he bought into because it was already at the club? Or was that something that he brought to the club? No, that's the club values. It's not Sir Alex Ferguson's values. I mean, obviously he put his own stamp on it and I imagine that's why he was brought in because he had the same sort of values of attacking football, young players coming through. So I would imagine that's why he was brought to the club because he was the same. But no, that's from years ago. George Best, Dennis Law, Bobby Charlton, all these great players, they were attacking players.

38:39You score three, we score four, that sort of mentality. Obviously, he put his own stamp on it. From the very time that he got in, coming in 86, he started trying to change that youth system, making sure that we had all the best young players. because when he'd come down, Man City were getting all the best young players and he wanted to change that. So as well as managing, obviously, the first team, he had an eye on just making sure that the youth team, because in a couple of years' time, these players are going to come through. It's mad, Dan. Also, just seeing you saying that, Michael Carrick's at the club now.

39:15He's obviously trying to put his stamp and his DNA on the team as well. What do you reckon the manager will be saying to someone like him? Because it's hard to implement a DNA or your philosophy on a team. How do you go about doing that? Well, I've got a different take on it because it's now you've got to win games. So win games and then slowly, if you can stamp the values. Listen, it's not like just trying to nick 1-0 wins and just be defensive. I don't mean that, but it is change now. Football has changed where you just don't get time. The manager, Sir Alex, had time to bring young players through and see a young lad at 16 and go, right, okay, he'll be in my first team in a couple of years.

40:02You can't do that anymore. You've got to win games and slowly try. Michael did it, I think, the first game. He played Dogu left wing, didn't play Cunha, brought Cunha on. So he's sort of a left footer on the left-hand side, a bit of width. So I think he tried to implement that straight away. Michael knows that he has to win games as well. So it's very hard to sort of keep the club values if you haven't got the players to do it. First of all, you need to win games now. It's hard, you know, United supporters will be going, no, I need to play the right way. You need to attack in. But if you haven't got the players to do it, you need to find a different way and just give time.

40:43If a couple of transfer windows, young players to come through that you perhaps don't get like you used to. I spoke to Ander Herrera the other day and he was talking about the first time he met Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, exactly he spoke about the DNA of the club, this is how we play. Do you put that as an importance over tactics and the tactical approach or is there more of a balance that you look at like that? No, it's a balance. I mean, we could attack because you knew that you had midfield, you had Ince Keane, you You had Pallister-Bruce, then obviously Japsdam, Ronnie Janssen, yourself and Vida.

41:17Didn't mind if he left 2v2. But now perhaps you might not have the players to do that. So you have to work out a different way of playing. But you have to win games. And it's difficult to play the United way if you haven't got the players to do it. And that takes time to get your players in. As we're finishing up, I just want to get one standout moment or memory or a thing from your time working with the manager that stands out the most for you as we finish up. It'll be when the first time I play, I trained with the first team. I was 15, I think, and he just came in and I'm just running on the pitch, just playing football like you do, not thinking about a lot anyway.

42:03Just don't do anything different. You're here for a reason. play the way that you've been playing in the youth team play the way that you've been playing in the B team the A team which were the younger teams at the time don't think about doing anything different that's the reason you're here and that sort of like give me alright okay I can beat people I can dribble I don't have to you know not worry about but I have to try and be different you just give me the freedom to be the player that I was So you're 15 you go into Man United's first team you're training with the first team etc etc. JJ Gabriel is 15, trains with the first team at Man United, high expectations, probably similar to what you had at the time, young kid everyone's talking about.

42:46If you had a bit of advice for him now, what would that be? So far in his career, everything's going fine. Why would you disrupt that? You're on the right track. I trained at 15, I didn't play for the first team until two years later. so you have to have that patience that people just don't seem to have at the moment and believe it or not first team football for Man United is completely different from playing in the youth team playing pre-season for the first team it's completely different that first game yeah you might do all right but you have to do it for 40 50 games a season and that's not easy you're going to get injuries you're going to get loss of form you're going to get bad results so you have to be patient you have to be patient if you're on the right trajectory then just bide your time no matter how good you are Max Downman is like unbelievable he's not playing for Arsenal at the moment and you know I'm sure he'll bide his time I'm sure he's getting impatient but you know he's not kicking off he knows that in a couple of years time he might be the main man for Arsenal Patience.

44:03Listen, man, thanks, Giggsie. I really appreciate your time sharing the memories about Sir Alex Ferguson 40 years on, still having a massive impact on the game. So I appreciate your time, my friend. Thanks, mate.

44:32Thank you.

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