Seedorf: I love “Old School" Jude Bellingham | People should respect Cristiano Ronaldo

0:00Hello, I'm Max Rushton. The World Cup is back and Football Weekly is going daily. If you want award-winning soccer coverage from a podcast that's been over-analyzing the game for more than 20 years and still hasn't run out of opinions or just repeats the same ones over and over again, this is where you'll find it. We'll be producing 33 daily episodes across the tournament, breaking down all the action, the results and, of course, the drama. Can the US make it out of the group stage and into the spotlight on the biggest stage? World Cup Daily. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube.

0:28I love him. You love him. What does he have that other players don't have? He's one of those of this generation that actually is a bit old school. I think he has that mentality of it doesn't matter what it takes to win. He doesn't have to look good and beautiful all the time, so he's pragmatic. But the thing I love about him is really his personality, his character. And he's still young, so he will refine himself over time. People try and criticise him for his demeanour. Is that an old-school element you like, the way he is? He's got a little bit of that arrogance. I think you need that. Have you played with top players that didn't have that?

1:06Yes, guys. Welcome to Rio Meats. In this World Cup, we're out in LA. And Airbnb have sorted us out with this incredible place. We'll be bringing you the best conversations with the biggest names. Stay with me, guys. We'll see you next.

1:26Oh, my man. All right, how you doing? Good to see you boys. Good, good. Looking strong, feeling strong as usual. You been gym today? Look who's talking. I heard you doing running up the hills and stuff. Only a little bit. How you doing, man? How good? How you doing? Well, welcome, man. This is my Airbnb place for the World Cup, man. Yeah, yeah. I see you spoiled yourself. No, no, no. They spoiled us. You need to. You need to. Check it out, man. How you doing? You all right? I'm good. What's been keeping you busy, man? Why you out here? What is not keeping me busy? Outside of the games, I mean.

1:56Yeah. Outside of the games. Now, actually, the games are occupying a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was playing paddling yesterday. No, also because I like what I'm seeing. The games? Yeah, I think the smallest nations, they really step up their game and they're competitive. So I like that. You're not playing no paddle or anything like that? No, no. Paddle is for lazy people. What do you mean? Socializing, lazy people. I'm a tennis freak. Are you like tennis? Yeah, yeah. I'm all about tennis. Are you good? No, I mean, I can enjoy. Are you better than Ronaldo? I've seen R9 play. He plays a lot.

2:34Yeah, but okay. Now, you know, in sports, you also need to be able to run. Come on, man. I don't know who's more passionate about tennis, him or me. But we played a few times together, against each other. We love it. Yeah? And when I play tennis, it's not about winning. is really just the joy of being out outdoor sports is is what gets me going when i need to go to the gym i do it because i need to thanks for coming man i appreciate it finally i know i've been asking you for time man you've been a loser yeah i played hard to get it but no seriously it's good man because obviously we get loads of the guys come through loads of the big legends come through and it's kind of yeah it's like we get behind the scenes see what they're up to a little bit behind the mask because sometimes we're on tv a little bit like you governed a little bit but here hopefully you can relax and chill you know look after yeah yeah for sure so you've been to a lot of matches by the way like who's been the best so far the best match best fans uh japanese is it i see they clear up the stadium after they before they go yeah during before during and after different long time i didn't see a fan base push the team the way they did oh wow the nether was you know, was ahead twice and they were just going boom, boom, but in a very like loud and energetic way.

3:56And then they cleaned up everything. I mean, it was like, we actually commented on that. They have their backs in their hands, of course, already. We know it, but every time you see it and you see the other matches and everybody leaves everything everywhere. I mean, it's beautiful. I saw you enter the England game, so I thought you were going to say England. Fans were the best fans that you've seen, but it's fine. No, no, no. Listen, the English fans need to learn to be more loud during the matches. They're watching the match and all the tension and everything. We're scared. I don't know. I mean, imagine how England's finished, right?

4:32Saka, Bellingham, Rashford, King. That's frightening, okay? So I think that any defence that would look and say, no, we need to face these guys. So I think, and I hope they will be fit enough. Sakao of course came back not so long ago from his injuries. But if you have those guys fit and you have bench which you guys have as well. The depth is crazy. Yeah and then the French depth is also ridiculous. When I talk about midfielders like you're one of the best, definitely one of the best I've played against and the best of our generation easily. England's midfield is a really big talking point. First of all I want to start with Bellingham.

5:12I love him. You love him. What What does he have that other players don't have? Well, he's one of those of this generation that actually is a bit old school. I think he has that mentality of it doesn't matter what it takes to win. It doesn't have to look good and beautiful all the time. So he's pragmatic. He has a big personality, which I love, which is needed. And he transmitted that to his teams and stuff. And if he's fit, which finally he is, because this year was tough. He up and down, the club was in difficulty, the team wasn't really good. And I think this goal really will help him to, you know, rise his game even more.

5:51But the thing I love about him is really his personality, his character. And he's still young, so he will refine himself over time. And you don't want him to be perfect right now, you know. Let him make some mistakes, let him... But he has a positive attitude. Do people try and criticise him for his demeanour? Is that an old school element you like, the way he is? He's got a little bit of that arrogance. I think you need that. Have you played with top players that didn't have that? I didn't. I think they all had that kind of conviction and drive, because it's the drive. People might not understand at a certain level you're so competitive, first with yourself, that it might appear to others in a way, because they can't understand, they can't relate.

6:40When you're on that level. Yeah, we can relate. I love what I see from him. Since the first day he came in, then there are things you can refine, as I said. You can become, you know, certain moments, it can be a little bit less, some moments a bit more. What are those things he can refine, do you think? I think he's sometimes a bit emotional in his reactions on the pitch, which might take him a little bit out of his centre, which is also very, I had similar things when I was young because you're so into it and you want to show and you want to do. But that comes with time and you get more experience.

7:14But I rather have that abundance of that than have to push guys to have that drive. Even sometimes a fight is fine. I hate when things are too flat. And you will confirm, we haven't played with teams that there weren't fights in the team. When we were winning, there was always something happening because everybody wants to win. Everybody wants to win. You want to win. And it's about how do you accept each other's characters and make that a mix for a winning team. And I believe that every time I did, I was part of a winning team, all those different personalities, big personalities. It was not an ego-tripping personality.

8:09It was a personality that would drive the team to, you know, over the finish line. We recognize that some other players are in their moment, at that moment, so let's use it, let's feed him. I mean, those are normal things. And I believe he's very generous, Bellingham, when he plays. He generally tries to find the right solutions for things. So it's not all about him. And I can see through the lines that makes you a real leader as well. I agree with you about him. I love him. I think he's huge and I think he's a big moments player. But in some ways, you might need to build the system a little bit around him to make him thrive.

8:43What do you think about that? No, I don't think he needs a system. I think actually, especially with the talents that England has, I would like to see Rice step up a little bit more, go and get the balls a little bit more. He has it. He showed it. From the deep areas. Yeah, a little bit deeper. Closer to the, you know, get the balls from the defence and start the build-ups. because otherwise he will come and do it. What I've seen from him, which he will learn as well, to balance that more, is when he sees the ball is not coming, he will go and get it, which is sometimes good, but sometimes you also need to be patient.

9:21And I think that the midfielders of England have enough quality and personality as well to keep him closer to Kane, keep him closer to the offensive players, to be that connection. Because the moment he goes lower a little bit, then he is actually not a connection anymore. He will have to drive the ball more. Add the risk to losing balls in important places. But those are the small things that we're talking about. Maturity that comes from. Yeah, I mean, we're trying to criticise somebody who is doing amazingly, in my opinion, for his age and everything. I agree. You mentioned Declan Rice. What do you admire about his game?

10:00I think he's a bit timid as much sometimes. Timid? Yeah. Okay. Why? I don't know. I think it's his character. In what way though? No, in the sense that as good as he is, so I would like to add some elements of Bellingham in his personality, if you know what I mean. Okay, give me the ball. Go and get the ball. Send people away. You know, he's a key midfielder. He was a key midfielder during the season for Arsenal this year, this season, the last season as well. I think he also will grow. I mean, we're talking still about, you know, how old is he now? 27, Declan. Yeah, so I think he's getting also two points of, you know, full maturity and everything.

10:43And I'm saying this in a good way. I like how he plays generally. And sometimes these type of players, the timid part of them would, you know, okay, now you get the ball or you take the shot or no, no, go and try and do your thing. Take the game by the scuff of the neck. Take the game. You're a centre midfielder. This is your game. But I have to say, looking at the first match, this was a decent first match. The first match is, you know how it is. So hard. Had to wait for two weeks in camp. Yeah, yeah. You just wait and give me the game. Exactly. So now that is out and now I think, you know, ice is broken and I think they will perform more freer.

11:27Second half, exactly, they were a bit more free. They were very stiff first half a little bit, but Kane, man. I love him. We'll get to him in a minute. But just the other midfielder, the last one, he's going to be a£100 million player, if we believe the reports that are coming with Anderson. What do you see in him that you go, yeah, I can see that? or are you yeah I can see that he has flair he has personality he he's complete as well I mean and then the bench so you have Colby still there I mean so I think that England is a very good place to grow into this World Cup and yeah I like the kid I think he's good I think he's good well let's talk about you man it's more about you and Ajax man the academy was is and was so famous

12:15I've never really taught you about this, but is there anything that they've taught you that you think has really disappeared from the game now? I think it's more of character building that was one of the key elements when I grew up in Ajax. It was not so much about technique. We would work on that, but it was about discipline. It was about having those characters, those personalities that they would manage, not kill the personality, but they would manage them. I mean, we would have all guys with big personalities coming out, like from Edgar Davis, like Dr. Clive, the guys that I grew up with, more or less, and we can name many more of them.

12:57And I think that has changed a little bit over time. it has become more about tactics, about technique, which for me is a no-brainer. We're playing football. So those are the things you need to do. But what is going to be the added value to become a top player? It's your personality, it's your character, it's your mentality, it's all those other elements that, in my opinion, has gotten less attention now. Also in the way they recruit players, the coaches became almost like they're playing PlayStation sometimes with their teams, even from the bench. try to tell them what to do and everything so but that that is a almost a standard now and i think that is because from the youth they're just not giving the freedom of of thought and and and you know decision making and creativity is not really um stimulated as much just like take us back to when you was a kid like so when you was going out onto the pitch was you was you kind of like told tactically, strategy-wise, where you need to be?

14:00Or is it like, Clarence, you've got the ability, you've got the skill, go and work it out. What was it for you? What was it for you? Yeah, so, I mean, you lose the ball, make sure you run back. Simple. When we had the ball, I mean, we would do our thing. I don't remember too many indications from, by the way, my coach when I started in Ajax was he was a cyclist. He could not really play football that well. He didn't have a football background, but he was an educator. And I think that is one of the other things that I stress out. That's one of my things that I actually occupy myself with a lot is to challenge this system where we have all kinds of, you know, trainers and coaches and stuff, but we need educators.

14:48from a certain age to certain age you need to advocate the youngsters with those values that will make the difference at the end okay this is a tough match so who can dig deeper those were the reasons he was saying those things to us and this is the reason he was talking about the discipline so hard on you yeah he was very tough especially on the most talented players he would not leave us alone always we won 6-0 it had to be 10 mentality again he was never happy so so those Those small things were the big elements for my upbringing in that system. That's huge. Just in terms of percentage-wise, what is the balance between mentality and ability in terms of being successful, do you think?

15:36Because I think a lot of parents look at their young kids nowadays, they're training them up, etc. But they might be training too much the wrong thing. That's why, what's the balance, do you think? I mean, I think everything is so personal really. I don't know about you, but I had my natural talents that I would work on.

16:01Unconsciously, you go to where you feel that you're good at. So you want to improve that and improve that. And then you get the feedback from the coaches, you get the feedback from my father and say, okay, but work on your left foot or work on this or work on that. and then you would go out, things that obviously today is so much less, we go out and for hours passing, passing to the wall, doing this and playing alone and, you know, putting the ball in the air and then go to a pitch, you know, that you had to go with a bike 20 minutes just to go and shoot and shoot. And the most annoying part of that would have to go and get your ball alone.

16:36If the ball went and there's no nets, you had no nets. No nets, nobody there. And then so imagine the drive to, you know, just want to improve yourself. And I think that is what we need to try to trigger within any talent in whatever. Trigger that inner drive to improve. Talking of working on your skills and whatnot, you was obviously ridiculously skillful, right? Would your skill set be more appreciated in today's game than when you actually played years ago, do you think? I never used my full skill set in matches. It was not necessary. Talk me through that. You can make a choice when you play matches.

17:16Matches can be very easy. You can do all kinds of stuff. So my skills, my full skill set, I never applied all my skill sets in the match because some are not really to be used in a match or in certain situations. With that I want to say I could be more of an entertainer if I would just go and do certain skill sets. but you play to be effective more efficiency effective uh functional technique in speed that that was my thing and and that was why for example r9 was for me on a different different level what do you mean because of that that um so you're telling me r9 had more skills than we saw oh yeah don't lie don't lie Yeah, yeah, training.

18:11In training, I mean, you've played with some crazy, skillful guys. Did they do all those things that you would see in training in the match? Difficult. Maybe you think about that one. They did, man. Michael Owen's probably the only one I didn't see do what he'd done in a lot of games in training. But, like, Giggsie would do most of the stuff that he would do in training in a match. But Gixi was also very to the point. Yeah. So the skill he would use, I'm sure Gixi could do more than what... Cristiano at Man United was doing what he was doing in training. Yeah, he was exaggerating. He did the opposite.

18:52Exaggerated in the matches in the beginning of his career. Yeah, I remember. And then he started to become more efficient. Effective. And then he stopped doing the things that were great skills, but not so useful. I think Cristiano is actually a great example. that is an example of intelligence as well because he was also super young when he started doing all of that but then he's okay if i'm just getting in the box at the right time i'm left and right i can shoot so less was more and that's what i mean but it's of course a lot of skills are needed in matches but the full package we don't need a full package to be what we became at the end on the It's funny you say that because the last episode of Rio Meets we had Thierry on Rio and he said efficiency is sexy.

19:40Yeah. And it was like, it's a common theme between top players. He's another guy. Yeah. He's another guy. I didn't play with him, but we had some, and I know he's so much more skillful than the things that he did. But how efficient was he with the simple things he was doing? Crazy. Dennis Bergkamp. Believe me, he also was more skillful than the thing. And, yeah, I mean, you and I can understand what I mean with this because the things are still the skills that you would see in the match were crazy. But I think it's how you use it, when you use it. And I think that's where, again, the efficiency, which are choices.

20:21How I'm going to control this ball? Under my foot or I'm going to stop it so the ball is in front of me so I can immediately do something with it? Today, you see a lot of stopping under the foot. And I will say when it's under your foot, unless you're defending it, you're not ready to pass the ball. It's very simple. If it's under your foot, how are you going to pass the ball? So put it in front of you so you're always ready to pass the ball. As a midfielder, I want that ball to be ready all the time because if somebody would make a run, I would like to be ready to give it. But if it's under my foot because I want it to control nicely, those small things...

20:57That's what Raquelme used to do though. Raquelme used to roll the ball in studs. Yeah, I know what you mean. But he was ready. He was ready. I mean, Raquelme... You have to be special to do that. Exactly. Now, you put it under your foot and... It's of course a general talk here. There's some moments that you have to put it on your foot. But it cannot be the norm, in my opinion. Unless you're special. So what separated R9 from everybody else? I think just the completeness of everything. and in any part of the pitch where he would have the ball, he would know what to do.

21:37The speed of execution, meaning the speed of thinking and decision-making. There's this animal that fights snakes and that sees the attack in slow motion. I had the feeling that once I went behind him, you know, I've dribbled some people as well and stuff, but then after the second one, it's all intuition. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just, go. But I had a feeling with him that he was knowing exactly what he was doing. One, two, three, four, and then still be clear in the mind what you're going to do after. 4K HD. Yeah, yeah. Just ahead. He sees things in slow motion. That was my feeling with him.

22:16And the vision. It's a mongoose. Mongoose. That's it. That's it. That's the one. R9's a mongoose. Yeah. the eyes of the mongos list you would go into the action full speed but see things in slow motion that was my feeling and as we said before efficiency it was not just about skills and doing tricks and stuff you would use them when needed but then the skills and speed which we know how difficult that is and then We don't have to talk about finalizing stuff. But again, we don't want to compare. You have the Messi, you have, you know, Ronaldinho was amazing. Rivaldo was amazing.

23:08And Mapez, Kane, last years, for me, he's gone to a different level. And for me, the beauty is that they're all different. and that I can appreciate, you know, how they inspire the game and how they make it different for the team. Kane's finishing for me is the best out of the current number nines. Wow, clean, clean finishing. I liken him to a golfer swing. You know what I mean? I keep saying this. You can see he's done thousands of reps because everything's just left or right, anywhere he is, it's just a clean, the head's still. It's just perfect, you know what I mean? The way he goes up to a ball.

23:48and I know you like details like that I would love to see again in training is when you get to know your teammates really and how they actually are perfecting their skills I can go back to Shevchenko who was an incredible finisher right but he would work on it every single day every single day reps 10 minutes 5 minutes bum bum bum and then of course it becomes automatic you don't think anymore when you're playing. So yeah, I love those. And the other thing I love about Kane is when he drops back and he gets the ball in the midfield, he already knows the guys were running. So he's a complete player.

24:31And those were the things of Ronaldo as well. And another thing is, so if another player is in a better position to score, the pass would go there. That's the thing I love about Messi, by the way. Is it? Yeah, so if he can shoot himself, but there's another player who's in a better position generally he would choose to pass the ball still. That for me is genius of course because the instinct you know scoring is amazing. No, it's true. Again, on that interview with Thierry who trained and played with Messi he was saying his work rate is so underrated and you're talking about the top players the best players or any player work rate's got to be fundamental of what you do.

25:22You don't stay on the top without proper work I think. Doesn't happen. So which team would you be best suited to playing for now in today's time? Or before? Because you watch so many teams now. Which one would you go, you know, that would suit me perfect? Not anything, doesn't matter.

25:46No, I'm saying it because I played with for different clubs that had a different style of playing. As I said before, the only thing that I missed was playing in England, in this sense. Why didn't you come to England, man? I was almost twice to come to you guys. To you guys? Yeah. When I was there? Yeah. Don't lie, man. Yeah, but in the beginning. In the early years. But then Spain, Spain and Italy were the places to be. Then Premier League took off, you know, in terms of the best players we started going to. But I was still at AC Milan at that point. I did 10 years at AC Milan. So who approached you then?

26:24Well, I had Arsenal in Manchester United and Real Madrid when I went from Sampdoria to Real Madrid. After Madrid, the same thing, more or less. Man United again? And then I went to Inter Milan. Why are you going to Inter before Man United? What's this? R9 was playing Inter. Okay, I understand. Good enough. I understand. I understand. I get that. So you went to Ine Mland because R9 was there like that? Just because of that? Lippi, Lippi, one of the best coaches at that time, he called me and said, I want you to come and play behind Christiane, Rieri and Ronaldo. I said, when and where? I need to present myself.

27:04I'll drive myself. Yeah, I mean, these are moments. And as I said, I think, I mean, if there's any club in England, most likely the three, because I grew up watching the Premier League, Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal. These were like iconic clubs. And so I would have loved to. And then years later, when Ancelotti went to Chelsea, that was also tough, but it didn't happen. I need to go back to this move to Inter, yeah? You're the number 10 going in there to play behind Christian Verri, who went for like world record almost, I think, for you then. Yeah, Christian Mance. R9. Yeah. The other strikers there was Rekoba.

27:57Yeah. Zamorano. Who else? Was there another one? Zamorano Bajo. Bajo. Ruperto Bajo. Do you know how he almost got emotional the other day when I met him for the first time? Because he was my guy. You don't know. So, here again. That guy in training sometimes, it was like he had glue on his foot. The balls would come like from the ceiling and... Dead. Man. And in small spaces and then free kicks. uh yeah special i loved him yeah yeah yeah you had you had like recover was on free kicks them times as well he had a nice yeah yeah oh the cover the cover was like um how can i call him left foot like a special effort very fast uh he could shoot from any any angle and he had this crazy free kick as well a little bit less disciplined over the pitch that's why I think his career never really took off became what it you know potentially could have could have had but yeah it was a crazy talented team it's crazy Jugovic Jugovic Jugovic as well but these names it's crazy when you go through that list one club you join R9 Baggio Vieri Ricoba Mutu Mutu came later samarano samarano samarano of course i mean at that point he was one of the there's that that depth isn't around that's one club by the way one club they don't they don't build teams anymore like that you know and also i have to say again we were talking about the characters look at all these different big personalities characters um hard to find today and also i think the number nine position, number 10 position has been less developed because of the way they play today.

29:54What they ask from the strikers, I mean, you have Haaland, you have Kane still as real number nines, but then Mbappé is a mix of things. I mean, different, different. I don't know where he comes from. Wow. Do you put him as the best Mbappé?

30:16he will get there but I am in awe with how he's performing goal wise it's crazy what's 25 26 right man we've got loads still to come right on this pod but we'll be back shortly after this hello I'm Max Rushton the World Cup is back and Football Weekly is going daily if you want award winning soccer coverage from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years and still hasn't run out of opinions or just repeats the same ones over and over again, this is where you'll find it. We'll be producing 33 daily episodes across the tournament, breaking down all the action, the results, and of course, the drama.

30:54Can the US make it out of the group stage and into the spotlight on the biggest stage? World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube.

31:05So why is he under so much scrutiny and getting so much negativity? Because people... So, I don't know what you think, but when you were winning with Man United and you had somebody who might not come... I mean, you play with Rooney and he would do the dirty work as well. Amazing to have that. But maybe Cristiano would have done a little bit less defensively. Yeah, he did. He did, definitely. Who cares? The guy's scoring 40 goals in a year. I'm going to run for him. I'm going to do that extra. That was our mentality. No issues. just position yourself in a way that you can help us a little bit.

31:40But I don't want you to go run behind the guys. If you have that in you, great. But if not, just position yourself easy. So I don't know the whole buzz about Mappé. He doesn't help defensively. First of all, I don't think it's true. I don't think he doesn't work for the team during the 90 minutes. I think he does every now and then, you know, what many of the strikes I played with would do. R9 would not move as much. Raoul was a hard worker, for example. But Suker would not move. Davos Suker. Davos Suker. Funny guy, man. Okay, just give me the ball and I will shoot it top corner and stuff. Just give me the ball.

32:21And then you had... Shevchenko was a hard worker. But Inzaghi... would not be that helpful. Just one's goals. Yeah. But these guys guarantee you a certain amount of goals. We will guarantee that we can... By the way, do we need to defend an 11 to defend a goal? How many training sessions we did? 10 against 6 and they would not score. But that's the game then. The game now might require different things from players. You might need 11 today. Do you think or not? I think they just need to start working on defence. So you're talking about need to work on defence. What do you mean about that? just because I've got...

32:59So, if you would have gotten the five goals against Paris Saint-Germain and Bayern, would you be happy as a defender? No. And everybody was so happy with that match. Oh, what an amazing match. I said, I was annoyed. I said, any sports on top level, it's attack and defence, not just attack. And that was one of the matches where it was just all about attack. 20, 25 chances. So, you didn't like that game? No. I love that game though, as a fan. As a fan, yeah, okay. But now we also understand the game. So we know that that's not proper football. In fact, second match, Luzarike made his adjustments.

33:40Because if you are winning 5-1, was it? 5-1 or 5-2? I think it was, yeah. 5-1. It's only game over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Game over. So, of course, you need to acknowledge quality of the other team. But I think there's generally, there is a, I just see the teams working on when they have possession of the ball. And when they don't, they struggle. I'm not talking individually, which is another thing. For sure, they can improve individually. But I think they are individually good defenders. But you can see they don't work as a line. They don't work as a team. Now, this World Cup has shown some improvement in that.

34:23but in general I have the feeling that defending is secondary to just try to be good with the ball. We need goalkeepers who can all play with the foot. We need center. Yeah, I think that they, the defending now is more the forwards defend. The first thinking is forwards and it's high up the pitch and we don't even want to have to defend the back line. It's all about winning it as hard as you can, quickly as possible, and we work on that. Yeah. And be great at that, and the importance as you go back through the team becomes less and less. That's how it feels like to me when I watch the games. But it's interesting what you say.

35:04So, Arsenal are the only team you feel like that when you watch the games. Yeah, I mean, I think Arsenal could add a little bit to their offensive capacities as well, because they have more than I think that they use many times. But at least they respect, and look, they went how far they win because of a good defense. The best defense generally is the one who reaches the finals and who wins. Because you have the strikers to score that one goal or that two goals. But now it's about, okay, you need to score four goals to win a match. How? And I think that is something. And also to take it a little bit further, what kind of message are you sending to the youngsters who are watching?

35:43Oh, you don't have to defend. What do you mean? Run back. And make sure you're together and and help each other. No, I only play when I have the ball. Yeah, no. It's not happening. This is when the fight's happening in training. You know what I mean? Exactly. I can't have you here and not talk about the Champions League, man. 18 years old. 18 years old, you won your first Champions League medal. You're the only man to win it with three different clubs, four times. Real Madrid, AC Milan and firstly with Ajax. What's that like walking around? Because you're walking into rooms with all the biggest legends around.

36:18I know you walk in there, your chest out, head high, because you know you can sit at the top table. Well, not just because of winning the Champions League. I think that is a blessing. You know, having played with amazing, amazing players from big clubs, and you always need that little bit of luck as well, you know, to go over the finish line. The thing I'm most proud of is what I know I've contributed in those years to the teams on and off the pitch. Big part in all of those wins. Yeah. In all of those teams. Yeah. And most of it off the pitch because there's so much happening in a year, as you know.

37:03I mean, there are plays with some personal issues. There are guys who have gone through injuries. There are high and lows of the team. And, you know, I've always been one who would activate myself to support from the coach to whoever. Sometimes I need support. And then you have your guys that you go and have to chat with. But putting yourself out there completely. And I think that for me, you know how important those moments were for the group and those things. I'm most proud of that. And then what you do on the pitch, I mean, that's what I actually was supposed to do, right? When we go on the pitch, we need to perform.

37:50And you have a team performance and your individual performance. The thing, another thing I can say is that when it became difficult, generally my game would rise. And that's another characteristic that I cut from, again, we're talking about mentality in the youth. It started from there because I didn't do things differently when I became a professional player. when it was difficult in the youth I would step up and they would let me. Also just on that in terms of like what you've won how you played we've travelled around the world together post-career and I see the way people are around you and they've got huge respect for you for what you've done and how you played but still I actually sit there and think that I still when the people talk about the best players I still don't think you get the respect that you deserve and sometimes you're not mentioned enough.

38:43Do you feel that? You know, I mean, I think that we know how things work. But the fact that I have somebody like you, somebody like Rooney, guys who I didn't play with and feel that respect, which is not from now, even when we were playing, getting the respect from the players and the coaches, for me, that is the most important thing. and honestly speaking I get a lot of love from the fans across the board it doesn't matter if it's Madrid or Barcelona fans or Inter, Milan or Juventus fans or Milan fans and just in general I mean I was with the Argentinian people and the fans the other day so those are the things that you know are the moments that I say okay you know you left something good behind and And yeah, I know if I would have been a little bit maybe more selfish in my game, I would have been more focused on all the numbers.

39:49Yeah, I mean, I know. But I know that the guys who played with me know. And the players who played against me also know. Because at the end, we know the values of the guys we played against. There's nobody going to tell me, oh, no, Rooney was so-so. So no, Rooney was one of the best players that I played against for sure. And if we talk about, I don't know, some guy, Pirlo. Yeah, also he sometimes is not mentioned as much. Maldini didn't, you know, he's mentioned, but we're talking about a guy who, you know. And we have so many. Eto 'o. Samuel Eto 'o. Crazy. Did you ever believe that you was the best in the world at any point in your career?

40:35Who? You. Did you ever think, you know, I'm the best in the world? I know I am. No, man. We had too many guys on a certain level. That would have not been a healthy thought, I think.

40:50No, because we're all so realistic. But I always entered the match knowing for myself that I'm better than whoever is standing in front of me. kind of mentality. Your direct opponent. Yeah, direct opponent. Teams as well, as a team. That conviction, yes, always. That I was among the best, yes. But no, there were some guys, as I said, that had something different, something super special.

41:22But it would not take away what I believe for myself, I think. And also, I don't think I ever looked at things like that, honestly speaking. I was not busy with those kind of thoughts. Like, would Zidane have played the same without Makelele? And obviously, we talk about Zidane, but I know how Zidane talks about Makelele. And even when he was in Juventus with Edgar Davids. having a Godafus on your team, I know what it means. Or not, you know. So, Skolls. Having Skolls on your team or not, I can understand what it means having him on your team or not. So, and I think that's what probably is how we were looking at things.

42:14I knew my value within the team. What I could bring to make the team better and complete. But not looking at the whole, you know, the whole world and stuff. Just talking about that, you talk about being confident in your team. We had some great battles, AC Milan versus Manchester United. And I spoke with Kaká actually on this sofa the other day, and he loved playing in that diamond midfield that you was involved in. You, Perl, Oga, Tuso. Kaká and I were very connected. And with Pilo. Ancelotti actually took… Kaká came a little bit later. So we had the first year where we had Rui Costa, Rivaldo.

42:55myself. I forgot them well enough. Forgot them guys. And we had Sashenko and Zaha Gibson. So he had to make a choice and Pilo. Now, he had like four number 10s there, practically. And we played the first match 4-4-2. It was friendly, very simple. And then he said, okay, no, this is… I want to have all my quality players on the pitch. So he pulled Pilo back. This is where we started playing at Diamond. He pulled me back to put on the left side on the midfield. Had Rui Costa with Rivaldo behind Shevchenko. And Catuso on the right side. And it clicked immediately. So you were really narrow. Yeah, yeah.

43:38We just did our things. Cafu. Cafu came later. But Cafu came. And we had on the left side the first year Serginho. Amazing player. Brazilian. and then in the year after we got so

44:00I mean the that was a luxury so he could you know Ancelotti could permit himself to risk a little bit more with some let's say more technical players because of that crazy defense that we had but it was also the mentality But at the end, we would do our work without the ball and everything. But if you look back, I mean, I think that team, the way he set it up with Pirlo, was a start then to come and bring Kaká in. And Kaká came after he followed the left, I believe, and then Rikosta went to the bench in Menjin. He's been clad in as well. Yeah, super, super. And for many years, we played with Kaká behind the two strikers in Zagin.

44:48And then Crespo came. And I mean, Milan was... You had a crazy team. Top players came in. How good was Kaka at Milan? So Kaka was... I had a feeling he could put people asleep with how he behaves and stuff. And then he would start running. And the guy was super fast, right? And he had this acceleration and his clinical finishing.

45:18Elegant, smart.

45:22And as I said, we had a great connection. We had a great connection. In our last years together, we played together behind a striker, one striker. So we had like the Christmas tree type of 4-3-2-1.

45:39But I always said, you know, you're more a striker, I'm more a midfielder. So when it comes to defending, you know, I will do that work more. Because what Carlo wanted is to, especially against you guys, so I would play behind the striker with the ball, but then we would be at four, defending. Yeah, and one of us had to go to the left side or to the right side. And so I would do more, and I said, if I can, if I'm in front of you, of course, you help me out. But we had that very generous connection. Was there a lot of talking like that off the pitch? Because I believed it. No, no. This was just one conversation that we had one time.

46:19Is it? Yeah, yeah. Done. And just listen. Good. Yeah, done. And this is what I meant. So the respect and the fact that he… Because that year that he won the Ballon d 'Or, he scored 10 goals in the Champions League. he was on fire that probably was one of my best seasons as well but feeling that he won the Ballon d 'Or and feeling that you're part of that you know this is what I mean it's not about we all know the contribution without the defense behind me I could have not been the midfield that I was all these years because they cleaned up a lot of stuff that I didn't have to do you know that permitted me to go up front and do certain things and I think that is the beauty of it.

47:07And that's why the relationships, even after that respect, and there's no jealousy, no envy. It's beautiful. And I have it very strongly with Kaká and also with Pilo. I mean, it was amazing. That game was a game when I remember coming off, I think it might be me and Waza and Rooney talking about like, everyone was talking about Kaká and less than rightly so. He was amazing. But after the second game in Milan, when he beat us, you scored actually yeah I remember coming off and we were talking on the plane home like right I knew Seedorf was good yeah but boy what I just saw there was a different level like seriously and you was older then as well you wasn't like the young but it's like you just schooled the game you schooled all of our young guns you remember Christiana was young then Rooney was young and like these guys were being talked about as being like potential greats and it was like no no we just bumped into genuine this is a great here and saw the levels and it made everyone just have to recalibrate like okay we've got to go back to work a little bit yeah set set a new yeah yeah there's a new level we just saw there we haven't seen that now those matches that we played again was amazing because how much talent was on the pitch yeah and again we we lost the first leg by the way we knew we had to bring the best out of ourselves i mean the respect and this is what i mean the respect that we had for certain opponents, you would see it in our attitude when we didn't have the ball.

48:36I saw it in Gattuso. That's who I saw it in. This guy is crazy. Oh yeah, for sure. Bro, what I saw that guy do in that game, he wanted to kill Cristiano that game. Yeah, yeah. Doubling with Odo. He with Cafu over that side. Yeah. Was it with Cafu? Odo. Odo. Yeah. I remember he was running over there like an animal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time he got the ball. and Cristiano couldn't breathe in that game. No, again, that is the respect you need to have. If you leave Cristiano with space, he will, he will, you know, cause damages. So, yeah, but what a match. It was, yeah, what a memory. Is there any other players that you, like, you played against that you had, like, massive respect for when you played?

49:17If you would ask me which defender I, I hated to play against, it's too dumb. Was it? Yeah, he was so hard, man. Everything was hard. the guy was in italian said spigoloso spigoloso is like bone everything was bone and and general i was not a winger but i would come in this area because i liked it to go from the left and find my spaces but when he was playing i tried to avoid that direct physical contact with him good good defender and he was fair he was not a actually you and Vidic as well we played many times but I saw always fair tackles tough but on the ball you know Maldini Costa Curta that was actually my first experience when I came back to Italy with Inter to play against AC Milan and I remember I tried to go in between them one time and I had to jump.

50:20Like jump. Just let the ball go. Take you. Yeah. And that kind of defending is what I miss sometimes, you know, just. Just on Maldini, because before we move on, can you just tell me that, because I've never really had much insight into him. What was he like, like as a guy, a day-to-day and how good really was he? Well, I think he was super complete. I think the most complete defender, left, right, had a fast. He could technically sometimes even be less accurate, but he would recover it with his speed. Personality, I mean, the guy was really, really amazing. As a person, I think he came alive more after his career because he was always, I think he always had that sense of responsibility that he had to be an example.

51:10So he was very, he wasn't always so approachable. Not in a negative way. He was serious. Yeah, serious. But we, I mean, our table, by the way, we had four tables in the room for our dinners and stuff. And it was him, Costa, Kuta, Rui Costa. And I remember the first year. So we had Shevchenko. That was our table. And so, you know, great conversations and everything. And then he would, you wouldn't see him anymore. After dinner, done, finished. He would be in his room. But being there every day, doing his thing before training, doing his thing after training, training like he was playing. Every day was a final, that kind of intensity.

52:01And a lot of pain because I remember he had to take a lot of painkillers for many years for his knees and stuff. But warrior, you know. to the bone. But after, even the relationship between us now is so, you know, he's more relaxed. And I understand that. His father before him was a big legend. And he's a family man, so big, good value. So he wanted to, of course, also keep the name what it was. And he brought it to actually a different level. Yeah, amazing. I love him. Well, listen, we're here obviously in LA and we're taking in the World Cup. And you're working on... They told me you're not taking in the World Cup as much as you should.

52:51You should watch more matches, man. Hey, bro, this TV's on fire right now. So we're going to be going to some games, but I'm not going to as many as you because you're working on TV. But I'm such a pundit as well. And what do you make of the stick that Cristiano Ronaldo has been getting since the first game here in the World Cup? There has to be a balance. My way of doing the job as a pundit is I try to be respectful at all times because I've been on the other side and I never like when they would go out of what would be, let's say, respectful to say or to the tone and certain words. But I think as a pundit you need to say what you see.

53:32So it doesn't matter who it is. But the way you say it, you know, that is where I think the difference can be made. In the case of Cristiano, for example, I mean, people are talking about, should he play? I think, yes, I think he should start. He's too big of a name. I saw him fit, so I think he should start. But if at minute 60, things are not happening and you have another big striker on the bench, which they have, then I think Cristiano should be also subbed if needed. not because of anything it's because that happens for everybody and these things should be able to be set this takes nothing away from Christian Christian doesn't need to prove anything anymore to nobody, for me so if he's busy with proving himself he should stop doing that and I think he shouldn't but I also think that the people should respect the fact that it's not a bad thing when you have a squad like Portugal or like other teams is like if M-Mapé doesn't function for a match and you have still 25 minutes and you have another top striker on the bench, how are you not going to use that?

54:45It happened with all the best guys I played with in my career. So what's the point? Now, I think it's about the delivery. What do you think? I think the key point, what you said there, delivery. How you give that kind of judgment or this is how we're going to do it. You're going to be sub some games. You're going to come off some games. you're going to start some games. But when we lift a trophy, you're lifting it. Of course. Like, so, that's all you need to worry about. And whatever gets us to that point, you're going to be a big part of it. But just trust me as a manager. And I think that's the job of Roberto Martinez.

55:19Yeah, yeah. And besides that, things didn't start today. Cristiano helped the team to come and qualify. Yeah. So, his contribution has already been. And whatever happens now, I think whatever they... I would love to see him enjoy this World Cup and play at his best. And that's what it's about. Only one will win at the end of the day. There's so many big teams and big champions here. Only one will take it away. So I think it's really about the respect that we need to... And also enjoy it because it might be his last. I always say, you know, these guys might not be around anymore for the next World Cup.

56:02So let's enjoy. I agree. Talking about enjoying your Dutch team, what are you enjoying about your Dutch team? Can they win it? What do they need to improve? We can always win it. But if you look at the overall thing, I think it's a good start. And you can grow from there, learn from some of the things, especially in defence, making sure you're tight. But we have good names in the back, guys with experience. Van Dijk played probably one of his best games I've seen of him this season. Is he the best Dutch defender of all time? I'm sure he's the best of this generation, without a doubt. But remember we have some important names.

56:46You want to call Frank Rijkaard, for example? You know he's one of my favourites ever. One of my top five players ever. I love this guy. He was my idol when I grew up. Was he? Yeah. Yeah. And you played with him in the Champions League final? I had the privilege to win my first Champions League with my idol. That's nuts, man. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. So, yeah, I mean, Virgil didn't have a great season with Liverpool over the whole season. Difficult year, transition year, you know. But what I like about Virgil is that he is, he puts his face out now as well, more and more as a captain. I think he's taking that responsibility.

57:27You know, when you see the interviews he's giving after matches, I always have the feeling that he's, you know, he's honest, also to himself and himself and the team. And I think there's a good vibe in the team. I saw the atmosphere, you know, with the players and stuff. Those are important things. It should not be too flat, but having that respect among the team players is important. And Somerville, I know people didn't know him that well, but I think he brought some nice fresh elements to the game. You played with some great players in your team, Bergkamp, Kliver, Overmars, Van Nistel etc. What one trait would you add from those sides you played in to this side that you feel would be a good ingredient to add for them?

58:24Well, I think it's the strikers. I think even Memphis Depay and Malin, they're all not real number nines. They are, I think, more 10, 9. Malin actually was more a winger. But this last season, he was amazing with Roma as a 9. But of course, they didn't play their whole career as a real number 9. So yeah, the names that you just said, what would be one element for this team is to bring a real number nine in. Cliver, Van Nistelrooy type of player. But in the end, this is a little bit the football of today. How do you find number nines? Yeah. The number nines that are number tens or wingers and they move a lot.

59:14But I believe that there's some chemistry which is even more important than the position and stuff. There's some chemistry within these players that I've seen. And if that grows, also the Netherlands has, you know, the capacity to score goals and to get into scoring positions. All right, listen, man. We're going to finish off. We always do it with all of our players. Five-a-side team. Five-a-side team. Of the best players that you played with. No goalkeepers, because they're not really players. They're different. Yeah, they're made different. Yeah, they're different. They're different. I'm working with Peter Smeigel every day.

59:52I know, they're different. Amazing guy by the way. It's going to be almost all Brazilian. Yeah? Okay. So R9. R9. Roberto Carlos. Paulo Maldini. Cafu. One more. Oh, I thought I would be part of that fight. Oh, you're in there. That's fine. That's fine. You can have yourself. That's fine. So you? No, if not... No, it's fine. You, I love that. I'll put myself in as well. You, Paola Mardini. Cafu. Ronaldo. Ronaldo. Cafu. What was great about Cafu? Because we've not spoken about him. Cafu. So if you've ever seen anybody consistent in a career, it's Cafu. And consistent in going up and down. Training, again, super professional.

1:00:56Fit and always hungry, man. To continue, you know, the drive. And creating that man more when you're attacking. Having that option from left to right to put the ball there. And then present yourself in the back line as well when you're defending again. top player Roberto Palos that guy never trained you know he never trained? no he was like what do you mean? he would run for fun but I never saw the guy in the gym I never saw the guy running seriously in a training session I said Roberto what do you do? force of nature that guy was a force of nature seriously like I asked myself I said Roberto what do you actually do to be this fit?

1:01:48You know when I got the answer? When I went to play in Brazil. That generation for sure and before. For them to come and play in Europe was a walk in the park. Because in Brazil, when I was playing there, we had in the second season I played 43 matches every three days. So it was like non-stop. Neymar that year played 73 matches with plus plus national team and everything. But these guys grew up playing on the beach. So... Strong legs. This kind of intense league. We're talking about Premier League. Premier League is a joke compared with the traveling and all the stuff. So now they come to Europe and they have a week no match.

1:02:39You know, national team, you have a break. So the rhythm And for them was like, okay, on a lower pace. Now these guys are running for fun. The recovery for them was easier. And I understood the intensity and how difficult it was to play in Brazil. And then you had different, you know, high grass and all this. Really, it was like the conditions were tough. You play 45 degrees. Then three days later, you go 10 degrees. And then three days later, you go up north five hours flying. You need to go. So imagine all those conditions, then they come to Europe and they're actually flying maximum three hours.

1:03:18Every now and then for Champions League. Otherwise, it's just one hour bus, this. So in my opinion, these Brazilian guys had an advantage in just feeling that they could recover faster because they were so used to some different level. He seemed to me like he was just playing for fun. It was nothing to him, just kicking, doing skills like crazy. It was like a ping pong ball. yeah i'm so fast incredible i had a great we it was my team my my roommate for four years yeah oh i heard about this this is how i got to know to speak portuguese okay cool but i want to say thank you very much man i really appreciate it thank you thank you a long time worth the wait Always good to see you.

1:03:59100%. Thank you.

1:04:56We'll be right back. watch full episodes on YouTube.