Thierry Henry Explains Messi's Dressing Room Aura | How France win the World Cup

0:0033 days, 33 episodes, no off switch. From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, if you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been over-analyzing the game for more than 20 years, then this is it. Join me, Max Rushton, and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt, or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch full episodes on YouTube. I was told I wasn't going to start And I would share it on less money People always say, okay, you love, love, love, love, love, Arsenal Why did you leave?

0:35I say, I love my family, but I left my house Because competing is key Ryan will always be a guy that plays differently I have never seen dribbling like he can with both of his feet Can England win it? Yeah, most definitely You have that special guy By the way, you always have the special guy Yes, guys, welcome to Rio Meats and this World Cup, we're out in LA. And Airbnb have sorted us out with this incredible place. We'll be bringing you the best conversations with the biggest names. Stay with me, guys. We'll see you next.

1:12Ooh, ooh. Morning. This is yours. This is who we've been looked after. Yes, sir. You have us everywhere. Oh, let me close the door. No, no, it's cool, it's cool. You good? Oh, not from Paris, huh? Yes, I'm not actually. True statement. How are you doing? Good, yourself? Thanks for coming over, man. I appreciate it. How many houses do you have in the world? No, no, no, no, no. It's not like that, man. Come on. It is like that. You're here. Oh, I'm here? Yeah, man, you're there. Your coffee is there. Black coffee. Hi, everybody. Black coffee is you, yeah? You like black coffee? Yes. Black on black on black on black.

1:48You been gym? Always. Yeah? It's mad I was saying to the guys today. I said, listen, he's going to go gym first, then he'll come here after. I remember in the World Cup in Brazil. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah, and I saw you in reception. Oh, no, I saw you in breakfast. And I was going gym. And you went, ooh, you're going gym? And you went, ooh, where are you? But I was still playing, though. I think I was still playing. Yeah, you were still playing, yeah. So I was obviously retired then. But now, you're like mad into the gym now. I see the pictures, bro. Yeah. I have to because, no, I used to train before.

2:22So therefore, when I used to play, I was never in the gym. I was more like the guy that was staying to take free kicks or my finishing or doing box to boat. Was that one of those guys that like, what am I going to the gym for? I just need more technique. Yes, it'll always be more technique. One thing that people always do not mention is how you utilize your brain, regardless of your height, your weight or your speed. That will always give you an advantage. And obviously, when you're smaller or less fast, you develop your brain at a younger age. You must. When I was young, you would have laughed.

3:06Like I was, my runs were comical. They were. But because I was so fast, I was always going to catch the ball. So therefore, people are like, he's good. Was I? I don't know if I was. I was just faster than anyone or stronger than anyone. but those guys at a young age because they don't have a superpower in bracket they need to develop something else you can't you can't like my runs sometimes were so late that because I was five I'm getting the ball or even the guys making the pass didn't have to really work on how great the pass was going to be with me because I was going to catch it you understand what I'm saying so therefore if you if you're someone that do not have I will call it a superpower in bracket obviously then you have to develop your brain because if you go into a battle or a run with someone, how are you going to survive or exist?

3:55It's impossible. In today's game, who would you say is like the guy you look at and go, brains? Oh, Bruno Fernandes, Pedri. Pedri has two. Oh, this guy doesn't have... He has two brains. He has two. He has two. He has two brains. No, but look, those are the guys, believe it or not, I always say to people when I used to play, I used to prefer an assist than a goal. And people always go, what? Come on, stop lying. No. True. Yes. Watch me when I used to score. And it's simple. You can see it. How many times you saw me really smiling after a goal? I always used to think. So, for example, let's say I miss a goal.

4:36Or I'm thinking even the game before. I missed. Although we won. And I missed a goal. I'll be like. So, I'm thinking about the goal I just scored at a time. And for me, in my mind, I'm kind of like. how did I effing miss that last week or five minutes before and I scored this one and I was always keeping that but then look at whenever I used to give an assist I used to smile yeah yeah and I always used to say that to people he doesn't smile this guy and I'm like it's you're wrong I smile when I give an assist but because assist at the time were not so much a thing now obviously everyone all assist their assist and by the way which I think is how he should be because I don't know a lot of players that could score a goal without an assist.

5:20Who can take the ball from anywhere and then score? You don't have a lot of people in that bracket. So therefore, it is very important. And by the way, it is. You pass the ball. You don't run from everywhere with it, which I don't mind that and I think it's kind of gone a tiny bit in the game, that part of it. But again, to go back to what you asked me before, which I will go back again people do underestimate the power of the brain when we all know that's that's the thing that's the thing that sends signals to to you know to the body but then we don't how many people made you for example smarter what in the game yeah made you smarter not a warrior not smarter Me, I have won.

6:11And without that guy, I wouldn't have been able to understand what Alsan was telling me and what Pep was telling me tactically. I wouldn't have been to, but that guy, I won't give his name. I think you came across him, Joaquin Francisco Filho, the Brazilian. Yes, that was my coach. Was he? Yes. Claire Fontaine. Was he? Yes. I never knew that. Francisco, he came to my United. When Ronaldo arrived, he came for… Oh, this guy was amazing. Where is he now? So, did you say what? Amazing. So, when I was at Clairefontaine, I arrived at Clairefontaine. I'm faster than everybody. Ro can't really control the ball well or, you know, balling behind and I'm running.

6:55I needed five opportunities to score one. Yeah, yeah. Like, I wasn't clinical. And so, one time he came up to me and he said, you can't use your speed today. I don't want you to beat anyone or do anything with your speed. And I'm looking at him and I'm like, how am I going to play? He said, figure it out. Do not use your speed. So now suddenly, because he did that, that opened something in my head. Okay, now I need to start to see, understand where the ball can go, movement, timing of the run. Because at least, you know, but he didn't want like raw speed, distances need to make sure that I'm you know you can't catch me I'm not really in front of you I'm not really close to the right back I'm not really close to the ordinary defender by the time you talk I'm gone but then can't use my speed so he somehow put a little dilemma in my head where I had to think then he gave me another one one day as a nine Thierry I don't care nobody knew it was me and him today I don't want you to pass the ball back.

8:01You're a nine. You can't pass the ball back. So what, you have to turn face the game? This is where I started to go on the wing a tiny bit more. Three quarters. Like, you play against me. I was never in front of you. No, no, no. Why? That's what I'm saying. So suddenly, I'm not seeing the game. I'm not seeing the game. It's tough. So, as soon as he told me, you can't pass the ball back, that's very lazy for a striker. Think. It's lazy. You know you can lay off, and then you spin. So I was like, how am I going to go forward, play, without passing the ball back? Then suddenly, as any human being, when you're in a situation where you don't have any other choice than to have that one, so I started to drop a tiny bit, go in a position where nobody can really get me and see the field three-quarter.

8:50So that's why always, I'm sure you remember, I used to stand in between the holding midfielder on that side the right winger no the right winger the right back and the centre back I used to stand in the middle of that square you used the middle of the four pieces yes so by the time you go I'm gone gone but what I'm trying to say if he didn't tell me that when I was 13 14 I will arrive I don't even know if I had gone in the national team because then suddenly people are talking to you about space on the turning turn that guy made me smarter because without him, suddenly now you're trying to analyze the situation.

9:32You know when sometimes your coach tells you something about a team? That's their weak side, that's their weak point. And then suddenly you put your head up and you're like, what the boss told me, it's not what's happening right now. Do we have an overload? Do we have an underload? Where do I play? And you on the field, where do you smell that you can kill them? But if I didn't have that coach that worked that up, then I wouldn't have understood. The brain's a muscle, isn't it, as well, and he's working. And you know what you said there, it makes me think, we spoke yesterday when I saw yesterday about this, they made me think about asking you, but you brought it straight to the front.

10:09Where does Thierry Henry then fit in as a striker in today's game? Because there was always two wide players now, and there's a number nine who normally, it seems to me, is facing the game all the time, back to play. If I go back to my time and I look at strikers, sometimes I feel a tiny bit sorry for them, because I played in the 4-4-2 and I used to love to move. But if you start to move and go everywhere and you don't occupy the two centre-back, the two centre-backs, shall I say, and you have to always stay there, kind of, not going right, not going left. Wingers are iron-wide early. Where's the space to run into?

10:48Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate and saying that. It's like, for you before, If I flip it for you because you asked me the question, same with you. I know you would have adapted, but before it was always you and the over striker. Always. And you had to be aware of a team could have hurt you before straight away because a flick, you're done. Now, when that ball is played to the lone striker, he has to hold it. Or they're looking for a knockdown. He has to hold it. so you can put one in front you're behind or whatever it is but back in the days you would have had to the flick of Esky for Owen suddenly you're on top of them and then long ball flick boom gone 1-0 you're like oh I'm just saying there's a lot of things that we can compare I don't really like to compare stuff I'm just giving you an example of how the game has evolved and changed we went from when I arrived in England go as quick as possible forward whether if he's into the channel in the air or through the team then everyone started to talk about the holding midfielder the best you need to find your holding midfielder inside then we go to the wingers iron wide but teams are responding to everything that I'm saying it's very difficult to play through a team now through you see how okay so now when you look when there is a switch if you're a winger when there is a switch on the winger and the only nine when ball side and there was a switch the ball arrives on the ringer it's far away who do you play with?

12:28it's far away it's true and doubled up tripled up how do you that's why if you look at the numbers of wingers this year apart from Mo Salah and last year the numbers are not that high because teams are not giving them space anymore it's not easy dribbling being in a 1v1 and being in a 1v3 it's not it's not easy but But look, I don't know what I would have done. I would have tried to adapt. I had to deal with that when I went to Barcelona. It was very different to the way I was playing at Arsenal. Freedom, do whatever you want, run everywhere, and you got Barcelona. Heels on the line. Don't go too early.

13:07When we have the ball, when Eric Abidale had the ball, I had to run in behind to free the space for Andres Iniesta. And I knew 9th out of 10, that ball was never coming. But if I don't do that also, you don't create space. And you want to win, ultimately. So you run behind and you create space and you see what's what after. But, you know, I'm not so much, and I know I understand the question, obviously, but this is not our time. This is their time. You just mentioned Barcelona and Pep. You've been Thierry Henry, the legend, the icon, the main guy, the go-to, the face of the Premier League for how many of you he is, okay?

13:45Then you go to Barcelona and you've got Messi sitting there. And he's that for Barcelona. how do you go and then adapt your kind of approach to the changing room, the environment, the games, knowing that he's the main guy at the club with all due respect? Competing was key and you will understand the most important thing at the end of the very day. That was my mindset. Obviously, now you see different things or you can transcend people, inspire what you can transmit to people, right? But when I arrived there, that's what I had to do at Arsenal for the team to work. You arrive somewhere else. It's not what I wanted to do.

14:29If you ask me how I like to play, that's not exactly how I like to play, the way I was used at Barcelona. But this is not my club. We're not here for me. I didn't win anything there. You listen, you arrive, and then you try to see how you can help the team the best way you can. Because at the end of the day, I always say to guys what does the team need? So the best player one of the best players in the world goes to Barcelona and says I have to sacrifice parts of my game and what I like doing for the better of the team. Sacrifice is not the word because okay boom you had the great Samuel Eto 'o when I arrived it was Ronaldinho Ronaldinho left Deco left Zambrota left Turam left people forget that's my first year yeah you had Touré, Xavi, Iniesta, Rafael Marquez, Puyol, Piquet came and became Piquet.

15:26And I'm not going to name the whole squad, but you arrive there and you look. And Rio, that's the way I am. I've been educated that way. We'll ask, you know, if someone come in my lane and try to, I will always stand my ground. But you also know that you didn't win anything there. I didn't win anything. I won stuff in my career, but I didn't win anything there. So you arrive and you just kind of... Sorry, I'm laughing, right? But, I didn't win anything, yeah? I understand the there bit, yeah, but this is a World Cup winner, Euros winner with France, he's won everything I've had in the Champions League with Arsenal, like, invincible, and then you're going, this is what I'm saying, so I'm just transferring this to young people.

16:12Yeah, no, you can do that, but what I'm trying to say, this is what I'm trying to say, like, it doesn't matter, what you want will not change, but I'm arriving in the dressing room wearing that jersey. I did not win anything. Zero. And the guys that are in front of me is Samuel Eto 'o, Lionel Messi and Ronaldinho when I first arrived. Just those names is mad. It makes me laugh. But there's something that people... I still went. That's what I was going to say. A lot of people would be scared and wouldn't go. Okay, yeah. I still went. Competing is above everything. And I love, love, love, love, love, love Arsenal.

16:48love Arsenal like it changes my you know I won't go same with you United we go extra when we talk about the club that we love right but I prefer competing is above everything for me especially competing in training true that's where the hardest games are it's above everything and I always say people always say okay you love love love love Arsenal why did you leave I say I love my family but I left my house left my house because competing is key. I didn't know I was going to start. Were you nervous? I was told, no, I was excited. I was told I wasn't going to start. Before you signed? Yeah. See, all men would have gone, no, no, no, no, that's not for me.

17:32At that level, I was told I wasn't going to start and I would share it on less money. Than what you was at Arsenal? Yes. Rah, man. See, I thought you went for the money, boy. No. Competing is everything. Like, when I don't compete the normal competition that people I I'm not the same I'm the same I'm way past that now I'm not you know but I'm not the same but again I go back and I have zero problem humility is key ah now you arrive somewhere that I want and you come and you want no I'm gonna let you know shut up like when I arrive I also know it was the same thing I'm world champion world champion for France.

18:17But I didn't win anything at Arsenal. So I'm looking. I'm coming after Nicolas Anelka, which I thought people forget. One of the best nine I've ever seen. People don't remember about Nicolas Anelka. One of the best nine I've ever seen. So you come after him. He was destroying the league. You come. You remember my socks over my knees, my light blue gloves, short sleeve. People were like, what? At the end of the day, I always say, It doesn't matter what you have. It's about what you do at the moment that you are with that team. That's the thing. And you just have to not be dumb and understand what it is.

18:54You're looking at the dressing room, looking at where you are, and you understand what you need. What can I do for this team to win? Not what I want to do. and I think that's why when you reach and you you know when everybody in the team thinks about what the team needs you're unstoppable yeah ego has to take a side a side step ego is very good you should have an ego embrace it for the good of the team I like that I like that let's stick on Messi there because we're at the moment for a few minutes and when you when you've got someone like Messi is your Is the team and yourself individually approaching things differently?

19:40I'll give you an example. We had Cristiano Ronaldo when he won the Ballon d 'Or last year at Man United. But we were able to let him be free, out of possession especially, to a certain extent where knowing people would fill in because you knew when he got the ball, he could make the big difference for you to win stuff as well. Was it like that at Barca with Messi? It became like that because he showed us that he could do that. It's not a deal. But when you see the guy in training, the way he is, the way he trains, the way he looks after his body, because one thing that bothers me is people always talk about how great he is.

20:16And I mean, what can we say? But the way he goes about his life. What do you mean? Have you seen his body? Yeah, you look at him ripped his ribs. That's what I'm saying. People always talk about talent. They work. They work hard. He thinks football. that's what is possessed. So when you arrive in a dressing room and you see a guy that can score four in one house, I'll run for you. Yes. You can make me win. I'll run for you. Yes, of course I'll run for you. And what's the issue? Now, if you're not that guy, I don't run for you. But you talk about his mentality because a lot of people talk about, well, you see a lot of players who are goal scorers and great players over the years.

21:05they're outwardly open and obsessed with numbers and goals and stats. He doesn't... Well, I haven't spoken or heard anybody talk about him like that. I've never heard him speak about it. But surely you can't get to that amount of goals and consistency without being obsessed with numbers and stuff like that. But he will... Will he talk about that type of stuff? His numbers and stuff? He lets his left foot talk. That's the thing. You will never hear Leo saying he's the best or anything, by the way. Nothing. What he used to do, I saw the beginning of the free kicks. So I used to come in training, I think it was my second year.

21:43He's taking free kicks and the free kicks were not great, as you would at the beginning. So I'm like, I don't think that's going to be something that you will ever master. But my point is, obviously a joke, but my point is repetition is key, even for the best. That's why people do not understand. And yet there is a gift. Yes. But you have to work it. This guy was coming, taking free kicks, hitting the wall, the day after. And then the day after. And then now, more often than not, his free kicks are or the goalkeeper saves it, or it's a goal, or it hits a crossbar or the post. Because people talk about free kicks.

22:22Look at how many times he hits a target. How many free kicks did you score? And how many did you take? You know, you have to see the accuracy of it. is just on everything. And I know and you know, Rio, come on, how hard it is to be at the top and to perform. To stay there. To stay there. I don't know. I really don't know. This is why for me, those guys, him and Cristiano, have more than... It's not so much football. I'm not saying, you know, what they've done is like, I don't even understand it in terms of numbers. But to be able to stay there, perform the way they work, the way they... And this is why sometimes when people ask me who is the best or not the best, and I talked to you the other day about that, why are we trying to compare two greats?

23:17Let's enjoy them. Because when they're going to be gone, we're going to all be sad. And even when they're going to be gone, I don't technically want to compare them anymore. what they brought to the Cristiano needed Leo Leo needed Leo needed sorry Cristiano do you think they need I agree with that I think all greats in different sports when it's tennis whether it's F1 or whatever it is boxing they all need that other great like of course you can see Cristiano I think it's more more open with that right but with you obviously lived and breathed with Lionel Messi for a period of time as well could you feel that when he was near him.

23:56Oh, yeah. Even not near him. Everything. Zora was big in terms of he just wanted to do... If he scored four, he wanted to score five. Five, six. Six, seven. Seven, eight. So just imagine when he didn't score. But I understand that. Was he mad in a change room if he didn't score? Yes. He was mad also when he did. But, you know, I don't know if you saw... I did something recently on Bruno Fernandes and I know you like Bruno Fernandes. I saw it. I saw it. I'm like, why people always raise stuff? They want to talk about stuff when the guy loses. I've seen Bruno Fernandes having a go at people after wins.

24:39That's how Leo is. That's how Cristiano is. That's how Bruno Fernandes is. Guys that think differently do think differently. And if you always want to reach perfection, which is impossible, that's what they want to reach. If you don't understand what's happening in the... What I always say, let's put it this way. Do not try to understand the genius. Just enjoy them. Because, yes, one time maybe out of 10, maybe two times out of 10, you will go like, is he serious? Like, why does he do that? But the other eight times, you will go the other way. Is he serious? Why did he do that? But with a smile.

25:21Let me take the eight. I can deal with the two where you're like, oh my God, that was a bit too much. So, you know, when you have something that's it, it's your trait of character and people just want to raise it because you lost. I like that. Yes, because you don't have an issue with you. You're a confident guy. Sometimes it's tough when someone is not that confident and they see someone that confident to come and say something. To go back to Leo again, like what I've seen, the way he goes about the game and the way he makes people better. Did he do stuff in training that you think, I have seen stuff no one's seen?

26:03Oh, that's for sure. We've seen greatness, but is he doing stuff in training? Because I see a lot of players better in training sometimes, even in games. So let me put it this way. Because we're talking about him, I didn't play with the other big one. Sometimes you see a great player scoring a goal and because you played with him, I'm going to use you. I'm sure the same you must say to Ippol. You see that goal? Trust me, what he does in training is multiply by 10. Right? With Leo, it's the opposite. He did it in the game. Do you understand the difference? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did it in the game.

26:42It's not like he scored that one in training, he did that. What he did in training, He did it in the game. And by the way, our training, the players that you're playing against, the level is there. It's just not normal. That's not normal. If you go about the real... I can't even start to explain to you what that guy has done. Right, man, we've got loads still to come on this pod, but we'll be back shortly after this. 33 days, 33 episodes, no off-switch. From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup. If you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years, then this is it.

27:24Join me, Max Rushton, and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt? Or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube. When I found out I was going to be a parent, I immediately felt a lot of anxiety and worry. So I went on to BetterHelp to try to look for a therapist to help me with that. My relationship with my family and with my boyfriend and with myself were suffering. I really needed help. I was ruminating a lot. Really getting those thoughts out to a therapist and getting feedback was just life-changing.

28:01Discover what BetterHelp Online Therapy can do for you. Visit betterhelp.com today.

28:13So talking about people on that level, Pep Guardiola, you was one of his players. Did he add anything to your game that even yourself you didn't realise you were missing? In our time, let's all be honest, there were tactics against some teams. Other than that, it was a lot of freedom, right? This team is this, this team is this, this team is that. They're not great there, they're not great there. But we're going to play our game. I know you guys, when you played us, you played us differently than you were playing other teams. But maybe one or twice during the year, that's what you're doing. If not, it's Man United, you play your way.

28:49You have your thing, you're sure about. And this guy arrived and started to describe what was going to happen the day after. To the T, to the movement. And it happened. You know, I'm looking at him. like if you make that run then he comes in then he comes that I never had a coach that used to coach stuff offensively do you know what I mean like the shape and then offensively it's more like freedom you guys do you in a certain way right but this guy was coaching everything up until the last third and then you go on the field and it happens and I'm not done and I'm like Sometimes I was talking, I'm like, that's never going to work.

29:37It did work. And I'm kind of like, that's a bit much now. So that's why then after you buy in, because staying high and wide, sometimes I could see that the high line of a team, that they're high. And, you know, I'm like, I can straight away run and make a run and bend my run. No, no, stay high and wide. I'm like, and then after I could see that what he was saying was working. So how are you going to complain if you're winning games? but the way the level of details that he puts in your head is a lot it's pretty intense it's not always easy during the whole year or two years or three years it can be pretty heavy but tactically what he sees is second to none and I said it so many times he's so clever that sometimes he sees too much pretty intense though he's intense as you can see even at at the end of games the guy will still go on the field and talk about a pass that didn't happen, minute 70, with the guy on the field telling him they won 5-0.

30:40And he's still talking about that pass. I like that. I love that. There's something about that I like. Attention to details.

30:50That's him. The controlling part. It's funny that you talk about that. And I talked earlier about the risks that players don't take anymore. is sometimes managers are so scared of the counter that they don't want to lose the ball too early. They want to stay in the half of the opposition but then sometimes you have a 1v1 but maybe your team is not there yet. Do you know what I mean? They say recycle. Yes. And if you was in that position that's what I see sometimes I sense when I watch you on TV sometimes I sense your frustration that you work all week to create a scenario to create a 1v1 and then when it happens in the game, players are turning away from it?

31:35That's a personal thing. And sometimes I am not in a dressing room to understand what they worked on, to understand what they're scared of. And there was a stat last year that I think, I don't know how many goals were scored on the counter in the Prem. It was one of the recalls or whatever. So people are scared. You see how quick the wingers are. Everyone is scared of the counter. but for me, you ball on the side. I see grass, even if I don't see grass behind you. But I see grass behind you. Even if it's a 1v2, it's on. You even run off the pitch once. It's on. Rio, it's on. Again, understand me well.

32:20I'm not saying that I will beat the guy. And I said it so many times, by the way. Defenders stop me way more that I passed them. You stop me way, way, way, way, way, way more than I passed you. Any one. But all you need is one or two. That's all I need. So then you have to, but to reach one or two sometimes, you need 10. But if you don't reach 10, how do you go one or two? How will I make you tired? If I always recycle, recycle. No, let's go. Push the ball. Chop, chop dummy. Go back. No, I don't. Dummy coming, go behind. you know you don't see a lot of wingers now making runs in behind the overmast run why though that's what killed if I look at him if I was coaching why is no one coaching these guys this or is it more the system is more important than this individual getting past it as I said to you people are scared of counters so that's why you see sometimes while a team is attacking they already position their players to stop the counter which by the way it's normal but then what you have is for example you have the right back already going inside on the winger if the ball is on the other side.

33:31But in my time and your time maybe the right back would have been on the line ready to overlap if there is a switch. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Do you understand what I'm saying? So again you go back to different things and yes everything is a tiny bit more controlled people have stats the stats that you have this is how many goals you conceded on the cross how many goals you conceded on an in-swinger corner out-swinger corners so all those in-falls that you have once you have them you can't act like you don't know them but is that why like a a Laminya Mal now maybe even Olise is walking into like into the area of like that's why people look at him like these guys look different because they're doing things that I remember used to be quite normal yes but you have to give to Flick and Vincent Company he tells them to dribble Michael Olise you over there I asked him I see you three he said yeah when the ball is there we are encouraged to dribble.

34:27You can see that Lamin Yamel, when he has the ball even from the half-way line or even from his own box, he's trying to turn people and go inside, outside, chop left, chop right, goes. I love it, I love it. But that's what I'm saying. So also, it's two things. Whether you have the approval of the coach or yourself, Be you. And then force the coach to allow you. So I was a tiny bit more like that. I was a bit, a lot by the way, stubborn. Because when I arrived at Arsenal, for example, I used to get killed at the beginning, drifting away from the box. You know, drifting. I could hear the Arsenal fans saying, what the heck?

35:14Get in the box, yeah. You know, stay in between the posts, get in the box, you will never score. Then suddenly you bend one. Oh. You go on outside, you deliver a cross with your left assist oh okay do you thank you but you gotta be you gotta you gotta show that you can deliver but if if I was weak mentally so that's why is it the coach or is it also sometimes the player no no no give me the ball like you tell Eden Hazard I'm sure sometimes he must have not done what Anthony Conte wanted but then but then he takes the ball he dribble six and bowling goes in the top corner we're all celebrating apart if you're not in Chelsea but if you see this type of goals I don't care where you're from or who you support you want to see that but Eden for example you can give him any tactic anything don't do this he was like he was like yeah then he goes and takes the ball and does what Eden Hazard does Can this guy be that because I know you coached him I know you would have been across what he's been doing and at times you see even Pep Guardiola is like, what is he doing?

36:28I've been there. Cherky. I've been there. Ryan is, and again, I said it. I said it so many times and I will say it. I said it in the Prince Conference when he was my player on the 21, on the 23 at the Olympics. I've never seen a player dribbling like he can with both of his feet. And people don't understand when I say that. I'm not saying he has the left foot of Messi or the right foot of Zidane. but both so comfortable both sides no but both he can do he can do like anything that you can do pinging the ball without any taking a run or left right skills anything normally you know when he comes to do something very difficult you take your good foot you always have a preference he can he can he can drag cross left he can drag cross right It can be anything.

37:24I've never, ever, ever seen that in my life. But then also, there is something that's called playing off the ball. I always say to people, however you want to look at it, people always talk about transition, low, high, mid-block. There's two things in the game, when you have the ball and when you don't have it. And more often than not, not only as a team. As a team, sometimes you will have it more than the other team, but as an individual. You never have the ball a lot. How many times you touch the ball? Yeah, it's true. Nowhere near as much as people think. That's what I'm saying. So work hard.

37:59Help your team. Has he got that in him? You know when you get the test of silverware? And you're like, oh, that's what it is. Okay, I like that. So Ryan will always be a guy that plays differently. But like I said, and I told him already, if he does understand what he needs to do off the ball it's over it is because the way the way that he can what he can bring to a team and how he does it is a special player but I can see also sometimes Pep struggling with some stuff but when you reach a certain level of how you see the game, sometimes it will, yeah, like Pep said, and like I said also at the time, he will flick something at one point and you're like, wow.

38:58And then some of the times he'll say, no, you don't have to do it now. And then you might consider counter or whatever. But ultimately for me, where it is with him, like I'm happy with how he progressed and how he sees the game and how he is, that would not change. but then he can be a really, really special player. Talking of special players, and obviously he's French, looking at the World Cup and this World Cup, the amount of attacking talent that they have, they must be one of the real strong contenders. You've got Douay, Alisse, Dembele, Mbappe, Ryan, obviously, and then behind that, there's a load of other talent to choose from.

39:35Rio, the most important thing, and I'm not going to talk for the addition because of the amount of respect I have for him. Because to be able to play two World Cup finals, win one, obviously lose one, go to the semis of a Euro and a quarter, and then win the Nation League, lose the final of the Euro. I mean, if you look at really... It's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But the most important thing is the balance of the team. The balance of the team. If those guys are willing to help each other in any circumstances. And so I would like to say yes because the last two walk-ups, we went to the finals.

40:17So it's not a lot in history that a team can make three finals in a row. Remember when we were together yesterday, you said something and it might even transfer to this conversation. You don't always necessarily want the best players. No, I said sometimes less is more because sometimes that's why it can become difficult for a coach because when you have a guy, only one or two guys that are your go-to players, then you want one and two. All the team knows that it's one and two. But when you have ten, I always say that efficiency is sexy. Yeah, I like that. People always go like, oh, did you see the step over?

40:52I'm like, yeah, it's like, if you give me ice cream and then the ball at the top, like you gave it to me and it falls. Like I had it, but I didn't have it. Like you're showing me everything. Efficiency is sexy. I say it again. stepovers and stuff and chop, chop. Yes, but you've got to be efficient. But what does Mbappé need to add to his games, you think, to go to that next level? He's great. He's won the World Cup. He's a superstar. To go to that next level. When you think about what you just said... It's crazy. I know, I know, I know. Because he's on a crazy level. Going on the moon? Yeah, yeah.

41:25Where else is he going to go? Not a lot of people can make that trip. But we're talking about a guy that will go and get the records of the guys we talked before. What is next level for him? Like, yeah, okay, he didn't still win the Champions League, he still didn't win the Ballon d 'Or, and so even if he doesn't at the end of his career, even if he doesn't, he'll carry on having this type of career. Sometimes we're asking a lot about those guys. But should he be going to Real Madrid or is that their expectation today? Okay, so that's... Making that his club, making that his team. Yeah, but...

42:01Okay, like, When you go to a big club like that, you always get judged on what you're not doing or what you still didn't achieve. Doesn't matter. You can score four. The next game you don't score, they're like, what's wrong with him? You know, you can be on 60 goals. You miss the goal or a penalty in the semifinal like he wasn't up to the level of the standard of what the team is about. But when you go and play for Real Madrid, you get judged on how many Champions Leagues you win, which is unfair. Yeah, yeah, it's true. For any other team in the world, But it's unfair. I know great players that never won the Champions League and we're not judging them because they didn't win the Champions League.

42:38We are judging them on how they were, what they gave us, and how much joy we had when we saw them play. You have guys that never won the World Cup. So obviously now, Killian is playing, is active. We're always like, yeah, but he still didn't do that, you know. Or, you know, he still didn't do that. He still didn't score 100 in one year. who scores 100 even in their career. I'm obviously joking, but I'm saying sometimes I just, you know what, the guy played already two finals of the World Cup, scored both of them, scored a hat-trick in one. And we're still like, you know what, I'm not too sure.

43:19And yes, me first, when sometimes I watch him play and he finishes a game, I have to talk about what happened in the game and how come maybe he didn't perform with his team but he wasn't alone. So you're going to talk about a situation in the game. But when we're talking about his career and Kylian Mbappe and it's not over, all I can hope for him is if he can win another World Cup or win the Champions League with Madrid, although it's not really my team, Madrid, but I wish that for him. But you know when sometimes you have players for me that are on the other side of a certain line it's like when sometimes people are calling Killian on some stuff that they still didn't do

44:07it's a bit it's a bit harsh but I guess I guess that's why it is and I've been in that situation sometimes where but that's what happens with the greats like you would have been judged like that the guys we were talking about before all of the great and it's almost like a compliment it is in a way you have to embrace it this is what I it's good what you just said because I always say if people don't talk about you, it's because you're not important. And also, just embrace it. That's the only way you can embrace it. Make sure you're going to work hard. Not prove people wrong. You know when sometimes people tell you, what's your goal in life?

44:46I said, as long as I'm in the race and I can run, there's no finish line. Run. The most difficult thing is when you're not in the race, you can where am I running but if you can oh where is the there's no finish line run we're here in America and obviously the World Cup is here and it's on now you obviously won it in 98 and I was looking through your squad you had yes you had great players but do you think it's equally as important for a team that's going to win the World Cup you have to have the right characters and personalities within that and just talk to me about those in your squad I'll be honest with you we are the team where I'm sure you remember the time Djokovic was playing in Italy Turam was playing also in Italy Zidane was playing in Italy I think Christian Christian was already at Madrid Guys were playing in big teams playing big games every weekend I was still in France at Monaco and I think one thing that was very important is that we had winners and people we had winners and something that people do not want to mention we failed so I wasn't part of that squad because I was too young we didn't go to the World Cup in 94 and we didn't go to the World Cup in 1990 and so people always go like when you see the squad you go like obviously they won look at the team they had no no that team almost had a lot of those players that didn't make the World Cup in 94 so you failed now you're playing for some of the best teams in Europe so you're preparing yourself And what's very key in order to succeed is failing.

46:27You need to fail. People always don't want to mention that you need to fail. I remember the first time I went in the under 15 or under 16, and I'm sure you know the feeling playing for France. And I went, I was rubbish. I wasn't good. And they never called me back. I said, I don't want that feeling again. I don't want that feeling again. I don't. So I played differently. So, failure, preparing, being in some of the best teams in the world, those guys were our leaders. And when you look at the way we won it, the games were not from Bryant. Watch them. We won on penalty, golden goals, but we were hard to beat.

47:08Then we elevated it to play a bit better at the Euro 2000. At the very beginning, that 198, we were so rigid and tough to beat. it was you know not to rub it in with set pieces or whatever but we scored two goals on set pieces in the final Lillian Turam never used to pass the halfway line scores two against Croatia we needed a golden goal against Paraguay we won a penalty against Italy look I always say that I repeat that all the time you know when you miss two World Cups and just what I mentioned to you what else you're at home you won't have another chance above. You can't top that. There's no way you can have a better chance than that.

47:55First and foremost, having a walk-up at your place. So I always say to people when they say, whatever situation it is, it can be that one. I say, oh my God, you came out of that or you guys came out of that. But we didn't have the choice. If you only have one choice, then you don't have the choice. That's the only thing that you have and you don't have in the world. So human beings, usually when they are in a situation where they don't have the choice, they perform. You have to go for it. You have to go for it. You talk about captains in that team and their personalities and you've played with the likes of Adams, Vieira, Didier Deschamps and Zidane, etc.

48:30Who are the leaders in today's game that you go, oh, there's going to be similarities there. I see traits. It's very difficult. You see managers being leaders from outside and they're kind of a bit controlling everything. You know, I played against you so many times and I'm not going to repeat what Roykin used to say on the field. But you needed also to be equipped to take what the leader was going to say. And we live in a society also now. You can see Deacon Roy is a leader. You can see guys want it. You can see Ruben Diaz, Atman City, Duwais, Bernardo Silva. I can give you names of players. but there's something that I always say people always talk about captain and leaders and I always flip it whoever the leader is that sometimes we don't know too much about not the guy that has the armband that doesn't you know sometimes the guys that are armband he is the leader but you have more leaders in the team sometimes also you have the guy that will be vocal and the guy that will lead just because of how he plays and you just you just follow and then you have guys sometimes I have both.

49:43Like, for example, for me playing against you guys, Roy King at that. Patrick at that. You know, guys that like we're talking and also... Doing. And also like, you know... If you can't do it, I'm going to do it myself and take the team. That's what I'm saying. But they're always going to tell you what time it was, but you need to take that in also. Lastly, I want to finish off with Harry Kane. Obviously, because England and what he's doing. What do you make of his career so far? Do you think he gets the respect that he deserves? I think at one point people were confusing one thing. What he won and how great of a player he is.

50:19Those are two different subjects. And where I will give Ariken a lot of credit, a lot of credit. I did an interview with him. And on purpose, because for me it matters assist. I never used to like when the striker used to go, they don't feed me. Go grab your plate and serve yourself food, man. Like sometimes people cannot help you. Like at the end of the game I always hear like guys who are like, he didn't have any service what do you mean so he can go home that's it no do something work and so you could see that he could score goals I mean it's a given and I remember I asked him a question and I said do you think you have enough assists he said no and I don't like it and I will work on it and he did what no so I always have time for people that can always go like look I'm a goal scorer feed me this is my job I'm not going to do anything else that's how I am that's how I play and nobody would have complained no he wanted to be better he wanted to be complete with which he can play he can play against a team that plays low he can play behind the striker he can ping the ball he can do whatever he wants he's complete I like also Julian Alvarez because you're talking now I'm going into I like I like nines that can do virtually everything I don't know if it's unfair or not unfair, but now he's getting his reward.

51:44And why? Because he's winning. When you win, he validates what you're about. But for me, look, and you know he played for Tottenham, so it's not something that I like to shout about. But when you're good, you're good. It doesn't matter what shirt you're wearing, the way he plays. If you want to be a number nine, you need to look at him. And now he goes about the game. And again, we're talking about a guy that thinks the game. And if you allow me, I will finish with that. I always, you know, and I'm sure it must be the same, especially more with you than me, I'm sure. You know, when you must be on holiday and some guys are seeing you, they're like, Rio, me, you, 1v1, I'll pass you.

52:28And, you know, same thing with Terry. And I'm always like, do you think you can play football? No, but, and people are like, yeah, yeah, I can play. What do you think? you think because and I used to argue with people trying to explain listen you don't understand and I always used to say why would you I would never go to to Luis Hamilton and Nassim in this car and say you me now like no you never you know stay in your lane I always say that but my thing now when someone says to me Terry you know I can play football I always go yeah you can I always say yeah you can I think you do but I used to think it and that's the difference between me and you.

53:08Because when you guys play, we used to think the game. And so for me, it is a difference. Because if you, here we're in the room, if you say to a kid, a kid, so I bring you back to the beginning, Joachim Francisco Filho, basically what he told me is think the game. If you say to a kid, we're going to play and then we're going to think, you start with your brain in a different approach different of course it is different think but if you're not taught that early is is is is is very very difficult that's why i always say you need to train the brain repetition creates habits we're in the room here right not once not once you guys or me or you said we said to ourselves we need to stop and breathe because we're going to die you do you do it automatically nobody has said i need to i need to breathe because i'm not going to survive you it comes naturally to breathe right and this is this is why it is if you if you train the brain and you repeat stuff and and you find a way to make it natural.

54:25This is why sometimes you see guys, why did he do that? But how many times did you see that guy repeat that same action in training? It comes naturally, but technically, you're still thinking it. You're not realizing that you're thinking just like breathing. You don't say to yourself, I need to breathe. If not, I die. You don't. It happens. And so that's what those guys do really well. Everything that looks complicated looks natural because they repeated did it so many times. Messi and Mbappe, cup final, FIFA World Cup final. Who is your money on this time? It's not even money. I'm French. It's...

55:07You know, sometimes you don't stop and appreciate what you're looking at. The other day someone told me and we had our issues with France. It's not like, oh my God. But in the last seven World Cups, we played four finals. Wow. This is what I'm saying. And sometimes you're kind of like, oh, boring. They should do more. Yes, yes, yes. But when you stop, the reality is in the last seven World Cup finals, we were four times there. So as a French guy, obviously I'm going to tell you with all the respect I have for Leo, all the respect I have for everybody, I want fans to win. Like you want England to win.

55:45Like it's not even a money thing. It's just like a normal thing. I want Mbappe to win, score six goals in the final and whatever it is, we all know it's not going to happen. You never know, but you know it's not going to happen. But sometimes along the way, and you know that, Rio, along the way of being successful and performing and competing, we forget to stop and go like, you know what? He ended bad, you know? You know what I mean? You forget. It's always more because those guys are still active. So it's more. And everyone is thinking, I know already, what about if Ronaldo wins his first one?

56:21You know, people are, it was the same thing. Lionel Messi might win his first one, and he did. So I would always go with France. It's just a normal thing. Kathleen, you've played in England. Do you know what the temperature is like? Do you know what the expectations are like for England players when they go to a World Cup? We're all under pressure. France, Brazil, everyone will be under pressure. But you know, you've lived in England. You've seen it and breathed it. Do you have any doubts that one, England can win it, until Harry Kane can shoot us to that final and with it first? It depends on how the team is going to play.

56:54If you put Harry Kane in any situation, because you look at the last Euro, to play on the counter was difficult for him. Big spaces. Now, when he plays in a team that dominates and moves as a block together, he's unstoppable. And I think you have to give, to hold a lot of credit, that team. That team right now in terms of how they're playing and the amount of opportunity they have and the amount of opportunity they score. And now they move together to make sure that he can be inside and there is no, the distances are not too big. Because suddenly you could see at the Euro when the distances started to be a bit too big, Watkins had to play.

57:37Yeah, yeah. And so you need to understand this is your guy, then you need to find a way to make sure that he can shine. We're not going to see his weaknesses. We need to see our goodies. But I'm confident that that's not my job, but Tuchel can do that. And we saw that in the games before to qualify for the World Cup. But do I think that England can win it? I always thought that England could win it. Your team was ridiculous. You guys didn't find an understanding of who should be the guy or two guys because it's not always easy because you guys were all guys in your club. But then suddenly you only did one or two in the national team.

58:14who was going to be that guy. And it's not easy. But again, I always repeat, I don't want to rub it in, but you lost against Brazil in 2002. It's not like you lost. You lost against... And by the way, I will go down to say, for me, that game, that game in terms of who was on that field and how he went, was the game of that World Cup. I think when I watched that game, I was like, whoever wins this, I think will go on and win the World Cup. So you lost against that team. It's not like... I just think that sometimes seeing it from outside, especially living in England, is always creating an issue when there is no issue.

58:55When there is no issue, it is always something. With Southgate, people are complaining, football is not great. Now with Tuchel, it's great. Benningham is not starting. Why Benningham? Trent is not in the squad. There's always a problem. Instead of trying to see what the solution can be, you bring problems. but look, it's the same everywhere. I'm just saying that can England win it? Yeah, most definitely. You have that special guy. By the way, you always have the special guy to be able to win it also. It can be Wayne, it can be Shearer, it can be Gerard Lampard. I mean, you, whatever. Saul, Werther, Terry, whatever.

59:29I did name the whole squad almost anyway. But I'm just saying that sometimes also the draw, a tiny bit of luck, the togetherness. The timing. resting, decision of the rest. So many things that you need to have going your way to win a World Cup. It's so hard. It is so hard. It doesn't just happen like that, but I do believe that you guys can win it. You have the quality to win it. You show that every game. But again, we can say that the shirt of England is heavy, but I don't know what it is also to wear the shirt of Brazil. That one is heavy. I think that's heavy shit you know when you think that a guy like Lionel Messi I think retired twice in the national team because he couldn't the pressure that's what I'm saying so when you think that he put things in perspective and you're like hey playing for the national team it's a different ball game I've waited a long time for this I've asked you a few times you're a busy guy hard to track down everywhere on TV every time I turn it on but you know what thank you and you delivered you didn't disappoint as always thank you I appreciate it thanks for having me good to see you man that was good we're already done

1:01:15Thank you.

1:02:01We'll be right back.

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