Wayne Rooney: Where United’s Decline Began | with Raw & Honest Conversation Like Never Before

0:00I've said that I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. People think I don't like Cristiano. To be honest, over the last couple of years, I'm thinking, you know what, he's probably going to be the one when you look back. Wayne Rooney, one of the greatest footballers of my generation. I've known him since he was 17 years old and it's fair to say that we've been through some highs and lows together. Yeah, it was scary. Wayne Rooney's scared. He was in the Old Edge Hotel for a while and we rented a house. You've seen him rent a house. I'll see the state of it. And it was almost like I became your security from behind you.

0:31Because I heard someone shout, once a blue, always a blue. And although we shared a dressing room for all those years, I learned loads more about my mate. I used to pick him up from his house and see him in the airport for Champions League games and he just grunted. I was struggling massively. With what? With alcohol. Massively struggling. I didn't think I could turn to anyone. I wish I knew more about that as a teammate. I just love sitting down with footballers to show you just what they're really like. Well, I honestly believe if she were dead, I'd be dead. I love going home after a game and watching the standards.

1:10I love that moment, that feeling where you're sat there, you're watching TV, you're comfortable, you're in a safe place. It's weird, because I would always say you're confident. I'll walk around, I'm at 8.5 out of 10.

1:26Yeah. So make time and see Wayne Rooney in a way you've never ever seen him before.

1:37Morning. You alright? How you doing? You alright? You good? Well done. Got you a coffee. Look. Service. This is not paid after. Do you know what, it might be a bit too much water. Do you want to pour a bit out for you? Yeah, that's OK. I'm not a diva mate. You're not a diva? Oh, how you doing? Good. So, I always want to speak to you because you're obviously a striker and I always, when you talk about players, you give a good kind of understanding. You're a striker. Who do you watch today when you watch football and think, love watching that striker? i do like watching harland but also for straight to me as well i think his movement um if you watch his movement in the six yard box it's incredible yeah um but then just one little bit more um from and then in what sense what you want a bit more of i want to be more commanding like you look at the size of him like physical physicality he's like a beast and just wanted to like go bully centre-back, you know what I mean?

2:41If that makes sense. He had that little scuffle, didn't he, with... Gabriel. Goffrey. Oh, yeah, Goffrey, yeah. At Everton. And I want to see it a little bit more than just dominate the centre-back. But then the game's changed. The game's different. The number nines are not the main man. If you look around world football, just say we stay in the Premier, there's Cole Palmer, there's Saka, there's Salah. The best players, the game changers come from the sides. So the forward really is just there to occupy defenders. There's no... I like Mettete. At Paris? Yeah, I think... You said that to me, you said that in the WhatsApp group, didn't you, before?

3:27Yeah, I just think he's clumsy. He doesn't look great on the eye, but he occupies defenders. He makes it a difficult game for defenders to try and deal with them. And that allows the other players to come into little spaces. So I like him, but other than that, number 9s have gone off the game. Just to go back to Harry Kane, what's your thoughts on him? And obviously, he broke your record for England. but he's a bit similar to you. He's a number nine, but he can also drop in and play. I think he's developed that over the last few years. He's developed and he's a clever lad, Harry. He's never been the quickest, but I think he's lost a little bit of sharpness.

4:16He scored how many goals he scored last season for Bayern. He's a goal scorer, he's clinical, in but he's clever in terms of the positions he's picking up and it's allowing I watched Bayern Munich in the club World Cup and then it was almost like totty for Roma in where you drop in and there's runners him offering but gradually as the ball like got further forward and they might come back out and went back around to the side he then makes his way in the box so it's not a sprint but he's in there and he's in the round there and if he gets a chance he's got for me he's the greatest ever England number nine.

4:49Is he? For me, I think. You'd put him as a better player than you? Player, I'm not sure. I think I could do things which potentially he couldn't. I was nastier than him as well. But in terms of goal score, he creates goals. You're watching people say like, oh, he scored against San Marino or this team, he scores every game. and does he play well all the time no and but for me he's he's he's above everyone you mentioned not you you're a nasty does he need to be nasty what would that give him it gives you that edge there's probably a reason he stayed at the tottenham for so long with that edge he probably doesn't stay there that long yeah you want to you you want to come out your comfort zone you want to go inside a different club to time be successful until light of these obviously won the league in Germany but just that little little switch I think I love him because I think his journeys is is what I love about him as well it wasn't easy for him it wasn't a conventional like a journey like yours where always knew he was going to be a superstar he's had to graft go on loans didn't work out and eventually got to the top and he I always likened him to a golfer golfer swing perfect he's honed his craft he looks like one of those guys spent hours and hours and hours doing that so all the rewards that he's got i think he's fully deserved as well yeah 100 and he's um obviously i play them for a period of time and what was it like playing with him sometimes like he's shooting what are you doing why are you shooting from there um but he keeps doing it but like him and ronnie keeps doing it and you get get your rewards but he's got everything it's just Just that little...

6:34Devilman. Yeah, that little like... Cantona or myself at times or... Just like... It's going to be horrible. He got criticised, didn't he, at the last tournament. Would you start him for England at the World Cup? 100%. He has to start. Has to. If you look at every in-game... He scores, doesn't he? He just scores, doesn't he? He scores. It's the hardest job to do. It's the hardest thing to do. and you look what's behind them, you've got Olly Watkins, Ivan Toney, I don't know. Solanke. Solanke. So if you could honestly sit here and say, would you start any of them ahead of Harry Kane? No. And he scores and people say, a bit like Ronaldo when he went back to Man United.

7:25What's the impact on the team? He works hard. Harry, he's not going to sprint around all the place, but... He's never done that. You've got Elmham, you've got these players with energy and fight and whatever to go and do that. Just put them out of the penalty box, score goals. It's true. You want your number nine to do, don't you? Score goals. I want to move on. We went out for a bit of food last night, and I think one of the interesting things we spoke about was a young scouser going to May United. What was that like for you? Just take us back to the feelings that you had and some of the things that you was nervous about.

8:06Erm... Yeah, it was scary. Why were you only scared? I was a typical scouser. Everything I'd done was a proud scouser for the city, for Everton. And then all of a sudden I'm signing for Man United. Like, what's going on here? I got pelted, got absolutely pelted. parents house got spray painted and clean parents house got spray paint there was death threats um and then i went went to manchester um me and clean had just bought a house in for me and we were in for about six months and then um we moved to manchester we was in the old edge hotel for a while and we rented a house you've seen the rents house i'll see the state of it And then obviously in that time we were building a house and a move and we've been there ever since.

8:56So for a young Scouts lad to go to Manchester, the first thing, people from Manchester and people from Liverpool are very similar. They're like almost identical. And that's why I think there is a rivalry because they're so similar in how they walk, how they talk, how they hold themselves, their attitude is very similar. and so for me to go to Manchester yeah it was it was tough and I knew first game walking out as a scouser I need to make an impact I remember when you first signed um we went to a club I might have been Tiger Tiger Tiger I've never been to a club no we went once it was only once but no we went to a club we walked through and it was almost like I became almost like your security from behind you because I heard someone shout once a blue always a blue and by the time I turned round to look at you you had your shirt off and that that was you then that encapsulated who you was angry young man i was horrible i was i was horrible and um to be around like you you've seen it for me teammates what was you then saying 24 before yeah something like that um so i put you in position i put your teammates in position because um i had the shoes i couldn't control him I couldn't control someone saying something, someone looking in a different way and it was a big deal.

10:26Did you need to be like that though to be the player you were? Because I think that anger was a big part of your not only makeup as a person but also as part of your on-field persona as well, which I thought at times made you. I don't think so. I don't think so. I was young. I was younger, come from a council estate, a council estate, the corruption of the thing of people. I felt like I had to have that desire within me. I couldn't come down from that. So, my hat-trick in the front of the bad team, I'm here. And then when you go home or you, I couldn't come down from that. I talked about this on a podcast before where you brush my most decorated player, Ryan King to the side, take the free kick, score a hat-trick.

11:09That is like ridiculous. that's like you're on the top of the mountain there. How does, as a young 18 year old kid, manage to keep his feet on the ground and come back down to normality? I love the small things in life. I love going home after a game and watching his standards and coordination's feet. And I don't really like him though. But Britain's Got Talent or... You love them reality shows, don't you? i'll go home um after a game and doing it as a player and as a manager the same then have a glass of wine and watch tv and for me that that is the clean always says to me he says um you come home you just want to sit down watch tv but for me that's like i love that moment that feeling where you sat there you're watching tv you're comfortable you're in a safe place um For me that's like...

12:04Yeah, because your life is 100 miles an hour when you can cut your door. And the minute I go outside my gates, for instance, not now, when I was a player there's paparazzi everywhere and it was horrible and it takes so much energy out here thinking how much planning you had to put in place to go to Tesco. Yeah, it's my head, isn't it? yeah and it's something we found uh and every time we go to tesco or go get petrol and every single time we went there was a photographer there right how how's he it like you're looking in your mirrors you didn't see him following so i got the policeman to the house and then they put a tracker underneath the car the media yeah wow even now like so i drive 20 minutes out the way to get a coffee because i don't i don't want to go to this one which is farming away because you every single time clean that's all the time and she'll just go but i'll walk out as a photographer i'm like nearly a 40 year old man going to get a coffee what what he's doing it doesn't make sense it comes with it it's like i've done documentaries and put myself out there in different situations and if i'm falling out of a nightclub and the pictures of course i understand that i get it but going to your local village to get a coffee everyday life like what are you doing who would be the guy who would you go ahead help you settle in when you when you went to united i think different people for different different reasons you were really important i think for all the young players if you gravitate to young players who come through myself and any younger players after me you used to always gravitate to them Wes was really good for me, just without knowing.

13:49He didn't even know that he was helping me in different ways. Shazie, Karas comes in, Karas is Mr. Sensible. If you're ever going on a night out, if you say you're with Michael Carrick, that's fine. And he's one of the best drinkers as well. Yeah, you say Michael Carrick, no problem. So that little group we had, I think everyone, yourself, Karas, Shazie, Wes, everyone in different ways helped in different ways and I hope that I was helping you lot in different ways as well and then I felt we formed like a little group and like when you had Giggsie, Gazznev, Scolzi, Roy for a small period of time when I was there they were like the Dons above us and then you could see what was happening naturally they were gonna go and we'd fill that void and the problem was there's no one behind us and so loads of help from different people from staff members of staff who you don't even know it was such a family in place to go and happy place to go there and you didn't think you didn't think of anything just that you're going in you're you're gonna have nice food you're gonna be with nice people you can go and do your training and go and prepare for the game.

15:11I always say, when people talk to me about Man Utd, I always do say that. I remember you used to go to the barbecues and, what's her name? Carol. Kitchen in Carol's Back Gardens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff like that. It's a small club mentality, isn't it? It's priceless. Yeah, it was almost a massive club, but it felt like a small club because everybody was so tight-knit, the staff, players, etc. Yeah, and I think from the outside, it looks like that's gone a little bit. But you still love going in every day. 100%. Talking about love going in, you must have loved going in around the 2008 era with the players like Ronaldo, Tevez, yourself.

15:54That front three, Luis Aja, ending around it a little bit after that, Berbatov. Talk me through that front three, especially you, Ronaldo, Tevez, because everyone talks about that as one of the best ever. What do you think about him immediately when you get mentioned in... When I mention that front three? Ronaldo and Tevez. Yeah.

16:17Ruthless. Fight.

16:22People say Ronaldo didn't... Ronaldo used to work and people think I hate him. I love him. I think he's an absolute genius and what he's doing is incredible. I love Cristiano and play with him. I don't think people realise actually how close me and him were yeah you were like two like you've fixed these together so and I think just because I've said that I think Messi is better than Ronaldo people think I don't like Cristiano I think he's what he's doing and to be honest over the last couple of years I'm thinking do you know what he's probably going to be the one when you look back Cristiano because he keeps going he's I think his last three seasons he's top goal scorer in Saudi whatever.

17:04I absolutely love Messi, love watching him play and that was the only reason because I think Messi had a little bit more in terms of how he played and you know taking players on and whatever. Ronaldo's a killer and people think because I have said Messi is better than Ronaldo, I don't like him or speak down on him. You said you preferred the way Messi played. Yeah and that's it. Then you might prefer Cristiano, this person might prefer Messi or Ronaldo. I don't think you can argue with any of them two. I just like the little flair about Messi and that's it. Ronaldo, Cristiano is an absolute genius in what he's doing.

17:45He's just turned 40. What he's doing is incredible. I take my hat off to him and think fair play. I couldn't speak a bad word about him. The three of you, Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo, When I think about that, it takes me back to when I was a player. It was like, we just keep a clean sheet, then three will terrorise. That's how I used to think. Did you feel a bit immortal around that time? Like, I'm beatable, I'm playable? No, not immortal. As a three? Just felt that we'd score. If I had a bad game, one of them two would score. And Berber comes into that as well. If someone had a bad game, one of us would do something create a bit of magic and win the game and why did it work so well though we were all flexible so it weren't you're number nine you're off the left you're off the right or you're number 10.

18:43there was a rotation which you know we didn't work on it we didn't go on the training pitch and say right um if he goes there you come here it was understanding and just a a natural rotation and the only thing which the manager say to us is if they win the ball back if you end up towards the left you cover as a left left winger if you end up towards right you cover as a right winger and um so there's a freedom of just playing and an enjoyment and to try things and not be afraid to to give the ball away or to miss the tag and and i think and a work ethic I think more so from me and Carlos I just think I think now imagine coming up again to me and Carlos oh mate where technically we can score goals but that's a long day two horrible like just ratting and leaving the foot in and tackling two horrible big rats chasing you down every time you've got the ball I always think that now and it's my first football gone away from two forwards yeah when carlos signed there was loads in the media saying that me and him can't play together they're too similar and he's the player i've enjoyed most playing with as a forward in your career yeah is it um i could be in that did you ever talk because he didn't communicate really other than with pat and gson parker did you ever sit down and go to listen carlos you do this and when i do that you do it was there nothing like that just not i used to pick up from his house and sitting in the airport for Champions League games and he just grunted.

20:27But he understood a lot more than I think what people thought and your communication is your eyes. That was your communication. You can look at one, that used to do with Michael Carrick all the time. Just talking about that front three and obviously Cristiano in particular, when did you

20:48look at him and think I'm going to have to sacrifice for Cristiano probably because he's moving to a level of like Ballon d 'Or status when did you go okay I never not once did I look at him and think I need to sacrifice they looked like that though do you know what I mean yeah it felt like that at times but I want to win I want to win the Premier League when I win the Champions League. And I think that was a big difference. Cristiano has got something in his brain, which I don't think anyone's got. He's got this mindset and mentality which is way beyond anything I've seen in football. Where I've got a mindset and a mentality which is not at that level, but it's a level where I want to win I don't care about I've never cared about bound doors or winning individual trophies for me that's nothing I couldn't care less on that I want to win I want to win with you win with my teammates Premier League Champions League that's what and if that meant you going to the left football's bad in the Champions League final you'll do it but what Cristiano had of course he wanted to win all that with the team but he had this selfish selfish mentality where he wanted everything I didn't have that so there's a difference in mindset from that point to you and I wanted to live my life around I wanted to go out and enjoy me time with friends and you know have a night out or and it got to a point where I went too far of course it didn't that was a moment in my life where i was struggling massively with what with alcohol massively struggling and i didn't i didn't think i could turn to to anyone didn't really want to because i didn't want to put that burden on i remember we talked about this didn't we i remember going into training and putting eyes drops in chewing gum and whole bottle of water, aftershave on?

23:02I just sang for two days straight. And come training? Come training and at the weekend I'd scored two goals and then I'd go back and drink for two days straight again. Who helped you out of that and dealing with that in that time? Colleen is massive. It's bad because we're two kids from Proxit and then we grew up together and we were enough to be starting dating and we get married have kids but when when i was from 17 she could see she knew my man said she knew um i was a bit out there i would you know love me football obsessed with football but also i loved a night out or whatever going out and she's seen it very early on and and she's controlled that well not control but help me control that massively and at times you know what are you doing like why why do you keep saying don't do this or don't that um whatever but how she's managed me um because i need them Is that important for a footballer?

24:19There's a lot of players who watch this podcast and it'd be interesting to hear your take on it, how important a wife, a partner is for a career in the game. Well, I honestly believe if she went dead, I'd be dead. I believe that. And what she's done, how she and it's annoying at times and I'm like what are you doing like and you get annoyed and you but everything she's doing is to to keep me here and keep me to be the best player on on this road and the best person and yeah I've made mistakes in the past which are well documented and whatever but I'm a little bit different at times and and she keeps me on that on that path and and she's done it for 20 odd years it's because I talked about on the Mount Rushmore of strikers in the Premier League on my podcast the other day about you being a genius and having crazy IQ and sometimes the perception might be different out off the pitch do you think that's unfair because I see you and you surprise me so often with how it kind of eclectic the way your mind thinks about things.

25:38There was a big campaign of this guy can't read, he can't write, he can't do this and whatever, he's thick. And then sometimes you start thinking, am I? Do you know what I mean? And I think what people don't know, I was saying this to you last night, I've studied myself on many different things over the last 20 years in terms of knowledge well no i'm very educated and i i feel i could hold the room with with anyone in terms of whatever that's black history whether that's religion um what are you talking about the pharaohs are last night um over dinner do you know what i mean so i'll sit there again how the hell do you know about all this and wherever it isn't and you see someone will say to us and like where's that come from because i've tried to create a book of knowledge in my head where if i'm in a position um with a player from africa for instance i want to understand his background and understand what makes him tick and um or even be a player from in Greece or whatever.

26:56So, I think it's really important that you've got that knowledge and you understand so you can put yourself in that player's shoes or that person's shoes. Has the way people perceive you ever, ever hurt you personally, do you just sit there and go, you know what, actually, I don't like that? Yeah. Both times. Both times. Because you're human. People think because you're a big matcher, number 10 at Man United, captain of your country. I'm actually very insecure on quite a lot of things. I have been my whole career over my weight.

27:33I've been insecure now over how you look. It's weird, but you're confident. It's weird, because I would always say you're confident. I walk around. I'm at 8.5 out of 10.

27:52Yeah? Because there's different attributes which you can have. You might look incredible, but then how do you communicate? How do you hold yourself? I'm an 8.5, 100%. But also still very insecure because I want to be a 9. That's a mad day. I don't think a 9's coming. if you're 8.5. I'm going down, mate. If I ever do get to 8.5, I'm going to have you glider. I am actually really insecure over a lot of things. I'm clean, I'm just...

28:36If you ever see me on the beach next week, I won't say where, we'll be in the same place. I've got my T-shirt on, I've got a cap on. Even when I was in the best shape, I was in as a football player, I wouldn't take my top off. I don't remember that. That never even occurred to me. And I was strong. I was powerful. I've never had abs and stuff, but... You were strong, man. Powerful. Probably a body which... Probably actually the best body you need to be a footballer. Yeah, you never injured. It was robust. You were strong, powerful. But I was always thinking what people... there was one thing which happened years ago with me and my mum dad um it was john ross put a picture of me me mum and dad couldn't knock the seat and still to this day i still think about that because i think you know what whatever you want to say about me to say it but why why would you attack me parents i don't get it and it happens the one on the beach yeah and I just don't get it, I don't understand it.

29:50My mum's a dinner lady. She was my dinner lady. She's still the dinner lady in the school I went to to this day. Wow. Why is she getting judged? So, and stuff like that, when Colleen's walking around the beach in a bikini, I just don't get it. I don't understand it. And they tell me I can't take a picture of my son in the park. Do you know what I mean? it's it's mad that it is mad so um i've always had like a real insecurity of of me image it's weird because you know i never until now i would never have said that i'll never have said that you obviously wayne rooney's like done everything you've done as a player built up as a superhero um and it goes back to that old thing i've i've been guilty of it where you don't really talk about your emotions that are going to reflect you in our own minds that might be negative or that someone's going to see you vulnerable or you're not going to be as macho as people might think.

30:49And it's just built in in men, I think, not to talk as much. Yeah, it is. And I talk all the time. So I don't stop talking. But I think there's a time to be serious. I wish I knew more about that as a teammate, you know what I mean? So I could have spoke to you. Yeah, of course. But then also, like what you went through, as I know not just me the other players are thinking like why why didn't we do more for to allow you to come and talk to us if that makes sense so it's it's mad it's it's it's weird you're out in a bubble aren't you yeah you didn't and you're meant to be this macho guy who's going playing football and being successful but a lot of the time you you're Right, man, we've got loads still to come right on this pod, but we'll be back shortly after this.

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32:09Is that something you've taken into management? When you go into management, where you wanted to make it an environment where people could talk, you would physically go out of your way to make people feel comfortable. Is that what you put in place, given your experience? What's really important, and this is, in my opinion, Alex Ferguson's greatest stint, where he just brought everyone together. I think what I actually done with every football club I went to was create an unbelievable environment. I just couldn't get a good team. Why is that then? We're on it now. Why couldn't you create a good team?

32:47Because all these things add up, don't they? The environment that you're trying to create for the team to produce the best performance and to be consistently good. Why couldn't you get a team in that shape? You could, but I think I took very difficult jobs. Obviously, I was at Derby and then I went in as manager and then we were in administration. Then I went out to the US and managed DC United, which people actually think, talk about that as if it was a big failure. DC United finished bottom the three seasons before I went in. And then we missed out on playoffs by a point. and then when I left we went back to the bottom and people don't talk about that then I went to Birmingham which was an absolute car crash from day one to be honest the fans never said that husband we played Millsborough away my first game we lost 1-0 in the 90th minute and we played Hullerholm I remember walked out and my first game at St Andrews and I'm still there and the players are shaking hands and there was a Birmingham fan behind me get back to America you fat cunt

34:04I was laughing I was like a home fan one of your fans wow give me a chance and so that was just never right at the time of when I went in it was just never we're in a good fit and then obviously went into plymouth and some of the football we played at plymouth was was unbelievable was incredible but it's a level of consistency which i'm not going to sit here and go with players or whatever yeah but that level of consistency where you need to to move forward and progress in time big playoffs or or whatever we didn't have that and sometimes that there's actually not much the manager can actually do now because every training session we give them um it was consistent it was the right messages um same session is really good and then i i i was shocked in some of the games i was seeing sheffield wednesday first game of the season um and i put that on me i played four i think four players who come in from europe first ever gaming championship at hills but it was a big atmosphere a tough place to go i put that on me but then those games like you played cardiff away um bristol away but i didn't recognize the team just to start change from training and looking good in training and then not producing you're there thinking what is going on here this is not what you've trained and then at that point you're like but that's why i always talk about it like what's the motivation to become a manager and and then having to go down the leagues to kind of prove yourself because you're not used to that environment.

35:52You're not used, you're used to playing high performance, consistently challenging to win things with players who consistently churn out good performances, match-winning performances. To go and manage a group of players, no disrespect, at lower levels who aren't built to do that, don't know that. I'm from Crocs. Yeah. So... my whole life was trying to be a football player and be in football and I know what hardship is, I know what it means and what it takes to fight and I know, I'm not stupid, I know there's players similar to me of stature who would never go anywhere near them jobs because the exact same thing has happened yeah it's not i'll make it right it's like and then they've obviously got better jobs and more budget and better players um and i think i've always gone in and had the confidence and believed that i could turn around and that hasn't happened um and i hold my hands up to that and say okay but i'm willing i'm willing to go and do that and go trying and knowing that there's a big possibility that it could fail.

37:15Is proving people wrong a big part of that for you? I don't care. I don't care about... As I said before, I am really insecure but proving people wrong, I don't care. It's just internal motivation. i like what me as a player what my coaches and teammates would think of course that's what i care about and um now i'm not in football to obviously better media and stuff and i care what my wife my children and say anyone else why would i allow someone who would only know to bring it down do you know what I mean and I completely understand that's that's not everyone everyone can't do that and what people say I've seen it this year with Phil Foden where he said United fans United fans singing about his mother I've had that every game for 25 years no one no one writes about that in the media no one says do you know what this is absolutely disgusting his children his wife's there so I've had to deal with that and when I'm on the pitch when I'm from the touchline but I think there's there's a perception there's there's things which people say there's things which people do and which for whatever reason with me gets pushed under yeah because you're Wayne Rooney it gets yeah but it gets pushed under the carpet not rightly so no one wants to write how disgusting this is because we're my seven seven year old son is in the in the crowd and he's getting abused every game no one wants to write about that i have to then go back and speak to my seven year old child and me nine year old and me 12 year old and me 15 year old to help them understand and say i don't understand and what is going on, why they're singing it.

39:19And I always think the way I look, I don't fit in. I've always thought that the way I look, I don't fit in to what a Premier League footballer should be. Why? What do you mean? I don't know. I've always thought... Well, you don't look like picks. I don't fit into what a Premier League footballer should be. I don't go by their rules. You don't conform. I don't, you know, sit there and let people talk down to me. I am where I am, and a lot of people don't like it. Because you've got a voice. Your voice is powerful. Would you have liked to have played in today's game rather than when you did? I think I'd score a lot more goals.

40:08Why would you say that? Defenders can't defend. What do you think? I know you were defending. No, I think definitely the level of defending now is not the same standard as it was before. It's nowhere near. You think back and you're playing it to yourself and Vintage or John Terry or Cavallo. Some of these defenders were tough defenders. Saul Campbell, um hard defenders to play in and it was a fight it was a battle you come off of scars all over my head um why is that though why now when when well have a thing i'm thinking now when's last time you seen a number nine have a battle with a center back yeah no it don't happen does it yeah like uh harland and gabriel maybe a little bit but even then it's not really that's that's damn bags and it's yeah it's not it's not like nasty like going into a game and and that's what picks you up like i'm thinking i'm having you yeah i'm gonna do you is that what you was like and i know they're thinking the same thing um where now and it's like before the game they're talking with each other after the game they've done the pitch for about an hour after the game like what are you doing, get off the pitch.

41:36Yeah, like you said about Harry Kane, we were talking about not having that nastiness. There don't seem to be a lot of that nastiness around, where you feel that there's an intent to really, to take everything off that player or team. When you go on the pitch, that is your job, that's your responsibility for yourself, for your teammates, for your fans. And fans aren't stupid. you roll in the pitch and you run, you work hard and you tackle and you lose the game. Especially Man United fans, they clap you off. That takes me to a good point actually, a segue into values and the changing values that they come.

42:16You were part of Man United when it was winning everything, success driven etc. You went into a period where that was changing and like you said earlier, players like yourself, myself and others were kind of leaving. What was the change in values from that when you was at the club 2008 time to when you left? I left in 2017 from our group really, there was me and Michael Carrick left. And then we looked at the players behind us and we were like, who's going to lead this session? Youngie was there, but there was no grouping. You had Jesse, Pogba, Rashford, fantastic players, very good footballers, but actually who's going to take your responsibility and have that, keep that soul in the dressing room?

43:15And I don't think since me and Michael left, I don't think that's been there. Do you think the likes of Roy Keane or yourself could have coped in a dressing room like they are today? No. Why not? We get sacked. You would and you know some of the stuff we got said in the dressing room. because i i always talk about how me and you we used to as we're we're we're great friends now but the amount of arguments how many we used to have per week where now it's and it's society as well and you you can't say this because you might upset this person you're bullying you get accused of bullying and stuff what happened to speaking the truth and and and saying like what are you doing?

44:11I'm not going to go yet because when you used to have a go with me I'm like I'm not going to let them do that again or I'll have a go with you it wakes you up it brings you alive and it's I have a responsibility to keep you to keep him to keep him on the toes and you have a responsibility I can do what I want to do on the pitch if it didn't come from you or then Caras or Scaldi band it's a collective and you have to we used to play the army game didn't we yeah on the computer and I'm convinced that helped us massively yeah because we've gone to train for two hours to London we're playing and non-stop we're talking and we're communicating and team and then when you go on the pitch it becomes easy so it's I think nowadays Nowadays it's too easy for someone to turn around and say, oh, he said this to me, and I can't take this.

45:13You're in your dressing rooms nowadays, is that what happens? So if someone digs someone out and a calf gets hold of someone, is that like, well, I'm not talking to you for two weeks, or is it just brushed under the carton? I've walked out of the dressing rooms as a manager. Why? Because I'll explode. and I've seen a player call another player out nothing bad and if this was a hard day it's nothing and then I've seen another player saying you can't do that if you want to speak to him do it one on one this is bullying no way and I'm still there I'm waiting to so I've let them I always let the players talk and I encourage them to talk to each other at half time at full time and then I'll come in and say something and I heard that and i just looked i was like what's going on so just get a shower walked out didn't say words and wow and it's it's my it's as i said society it's you don't know what you can i can't say as well and we'll be really careful in what you're trying to say how you how you want to say how you're project it, what tone of your voice you're saying it in.

46:31So it's so many different things. But ultimately, you want to try and get the best from that person. Yeah, and us, it was like you couldn't really tiptoe around it. You don't even got time to tiptoe around it. You're in the middle of a game. You've got ten minutes at half-time to talk and to shout and to holler at each other to get a reaction, to go out there and get a result. but imagine being in the middle of the pitch and then someone having a goal here, you've got to be aware, your head's got to be moving, you've got to be looking everywhere and then and this happens today, I've seen it happen, it's like you can't say that to me and then come over to the touchline and you said this to me like what is going on?

47:20Yeah, you've got to deal with it. You're playing a sport, which the national sport, and there's so many fans there who are there supporting you, paying a lot of money. They expect you to be doing everything, not be walking off the side because someone has said something. Can you think and go, that was one of the biggest, best arguments I had on a pitch? I always go back to Portman away this was Alex Ferguson we come in and we're winning 1-0 that's good and I always remember Christiano was here Nanny was here he's come in he's just gone for me gone for me massively about dribbling not passing the ball and I'm sat there honestly I'm sat there between the two modes I've looked to Christiano I've looked to Nanny and I'm like you cannot be talking to me there's no way you're aiming at me and he's gone he's gone again and then I've snapped I've lost my head and I said some things which I shouldn't have said it was a bit disrespectful and the manager told me that at half time and I went out scored another two scored a hat-trick best way to answer and then I was sat on the bus on the way on and I was still thinking I was thinking what is going on here like why is he going for me and and that was his skill set he knew that was all aimed at that ronaldo was all aimed at nanny and if he would have done that to christian you've seen you better start crying you'd see tears and um where he's doing it me and i'm like jumping up and i'm like well ripped up and i'm like so that was his skill set but i'd say that was probably the worst one.

49:16In terms of what I said, I shouldn't have said some of the things I said. A few swear words for anyone at home, I'm sure I was involved. But that gets me onto the 2010, the transfer request with the manager. That's one of the things in when we've shared the dressing room, it's one of the things I look back and go, that weren't in Wayne's nature to do that because he was always a team first guy and the transfer request or the statement went out on the morning of the game and that's when I thought that this ain't, it's hanging away in honor yeah so the club offered me a five-year deal and a lot of money i weren't pushing back on money the deal was there and i had no issue with that and then we sold ronaldo we'd sold terrors and i've said before i say again no disrespect to chris small and phil jones yeah we've been going to and so i'm like this is probably my biggest contract i was ever going to sign so i wanted to be right i wanted to know him so i went into the managing it's like before i had no no issue with the contract before i go any further with the contract um what's the plan here like who we're bringing in to replace tevez minado and he went for me in the meeting him just being in there wow he's gone for me so I was like no problem, walked out, got my car, drove over to Old Trafford and met David Gill and I was like there's no talking to him.

50:52I think it's a question to ask because I'm committing my next five years of my biggest five years of my career to the club and I think we've got a right to so looking back was it right was it wrong I don't know I shouldn't have questioned Al Fagan because everything he's done but I still think I had a a right to ask a question given who's gone out the door are we in transition for next three years are we going to be in transition for three years and then start competing or are we going to be competing now from next season and that's really all I want to know then I went home I spoke to David Gill, there was a few amendments on the contract, it was all agreed.

51:40David Gill calmed everything down, so I agreed to sign it. So what happened in the next 48 hours? I went in, I signed the contract next morning. So when you put the statement out, what was going through your head? Was you nervous about putting that out? No, so I'd asked to leave the club a while before. So the manager come out, it was a Champions League game, and scolding me in training. And my uncle was done, I was out for like six to eight weeks. So then that was the manager's opportunity to then bring it all to the media. Like there's no warning, there's no... Yeah, yeah. And it just went, and obviously it went massive.

52:23so i'm thinking i need to protect myself period and try and put some understanding into why i've made this decision and then put a statement out um me me regret on that was i put out and it was it was match day and i should never done that and as you said before that's not me like everything i do is for the team even if i'm left out the um starting line up i won't make fuss out go and see the manager next day if it don't agree with it whatever um so that was me because i come in next day and i apologized that's what i was going to say you came in and apologized for it and i thought okay he understands and then obviously you signed yeah and then signed the new deal and yeah but i i think that question i asked then in 2010

53:20It still hasn't been addressed from 2010. I think fans have seen that. I think when fans look back, they'll be like, you know what? You actually seen what was coming a little bit. And I don't think it's been fixed since 2010. Did that situation affect your relationship with Agafa? Yeah. Me and the manager were really close and we messed around and abandoned that.

53:52and the relationship was different i absolutely love them i respect them my opinion the best ever but the relationship was never the same and you say that that was like that has never been addressed since 2010 when you made that you started that question so in your eyes that's like the start of the decline to where we are now well if i look back to to 2010 i don't think it has i don't think I think we obviously won the league in 2013 but a lot's changed obviously commercially, social media, everything's changed but I still think when we lost Ronaldo and Tevez, from that moment we got him Robbin in obviously for a couple of years but from that moment the club has never had a group of forwards who you look before my time with Teddy with Socia, Coley, Yorkie then you've got me, Renalvo, Tevez, Berbatov, Sahar from that moment the club have never had a group of forwards who can all play and come win your games and that is Man United Man United you'll say different have your defenders and a few players who know who This is a striker talking?

55:15No, unbelievable and keep you in games and whatever. But this group of four players, they're going to go and win you the game. And think back to 2010. They haven't had a group of forwards where, like, if I'm playing and I'm not playing well, and you've got Burpatov on the bench. You've got Tevez at times on the bench. You're like, that needs to play well. Yeah. Sometimes when you're going through a bad period, sometimes it's actually a high for the manager to take it out and say, just stay away. You're not going to play, you might be on the bench, but just take that pressure off you. If you're not scoring, so it's, I honestly don't think it's been interesting to them.

55:59What is a United player? You're talking about players and you've spoken about characteristics of players and yourselves. What is a United player? In Gigsy we had him on the show a few weeks back and he was quite interested and he said you have to run, you have to handle the ball and entertain with risk and have imagination. That absolutely applies to you, the way that your makeup is. I don't think I disagree with any of that. I think you have to run and wear. The one One thing the manager always said, which has always stuck on me, was the hardest thing to do in life is work hard every day. And that's always stuck on me.

56:44That a man you like to play, you have to work, you have to be ruthless, be relentless, and you have to play with an attitude. I had the attitude on the pitch. Not like... Shirt cut. No, we're not. Rooney with the head coming out. There's an attitude about that. I used to play that attitude and not in a bad way, but... I used to look across the tunnel and see James Collins to West Ham or Villa or whatever. Think, you can't have such a meme. But I've used him as an example. No disrespect to him. But I used to look across at defenders and think, what are you going to do? You can't control me. You can't deal with me.

57:32So I always felt I was in control of defenders. And that's actually the... Even the John Terrys, the Saul Campbells. Yeah, I think at times, JT was always difficult. Obviously I know the history of you and JT, but JT was always... It got easier to play against JT the more I played. The first two, three years, when Mourinho came in, there was JT, Cavallo, McAleary in front, him, Ash, him, left back, Vanovic, he just started coming, it was horrible. And I used to always look at him and think, I'll run you in the channels. But he never, he positioned himself well, he never let me do that. But then the more it went on, I started to understand his faults.

58:22A big fault for JT and for all Chelsea players is as soon as the ball went wide, they just dropped. They just dropped on the goal line. So all you have to do is just stop running. Stand still. Just stop running, they cut the ball back and they're all on the goal line. So you start then to understand little traits with what they've got and try and counter after it. I just want to, this is the last topic before we finish, just wanted to, if you don't mind touching on it is Kai, your son. He's a budding young player now. He's trying to start a career in the game. He's 15 years old now. I think he's going to be under 16 next year.

59:01What's it like for you as a parent now trying to bring up a young kid who wants to be a footballer? And what are you doing to help him? Just talk to him.

59:16It's funny because you said last night, I found him really interesting. In a world of where stepovers and skills is like, it's the big marketable thing, it's on social media. You said you were saying to him, I don't want to see any of those skills, I want to see end product and run in. If you're doing a stepover to beat someone, fine, but you know as a defender, if I'm facing, you're facing me out of the ball and when I was younger I know if I knock the ball past you you can't catch me so what you do you bring me down you get a yell card I get past you you might get a penalty free kicking a position power and being raw and aggressive in how you run is everything so I was saying football is it's actually a simple game where you can go around the see I was on the beach and I beat her two weeks home I seen two kids and I think it must have been the grandad kicking the ball to each other on the beach and the grandad was unbelievable like technically I was watching I was thinking he's unbelievable so many people in this world can control the ball can pass the ball and technically can be really good but then it's what's inside you are you willing to run are you willing to hurt is it what is inside can you see that in him can you see that ability to be powerful to run over people and have that bit of narcissism that you had he comes home he cooks himself um he's fluent in spanish he comes in he goes in the gym his programme goes in the gym at home goes to Tain absolutely loves it so over the last six months I've started to see me in him as a player oh nice got left footed so hopefully is it a hindrance that you're his dad though or not he doesn't care about it that's the important thing isn't it what he thinks he went to games when Ronaldo come back to us um renal goes lad my lad michael carrick's lad on the same team and you go just imagine rocking out around the pitch and um kai has never never bothered about that he's on his journey it's not my journey i think the hardest thing is though i think is that what i found which i'm sure you probably would agree with is up to now you're saying you can see it but there's comes that there's a period, or maybe other kids, where you go, how do I create the hunger in these kids?

1:01:53Because they're so privileged. Yeah, it's... There's no right or wrong answer, isn't it? I've obviously four boys and they're all different and in different ways and...

1:02:09You can't give someone... Hunger. Yeah. Desire. You can't, it has to be in them. And if it's not, then you may as well stop playing. desire and hunger is that's football and you want to see it that's entertainment people talk about entertainment and you go in nfl or basketball or rugby all the best clips now with social media is when people come to me in my career all trophies have won, goals have scored, the amount of people who come to me and say that goal when you run back and tackle the defender and all of them was run and the forward messed up because you should have passed it and I was waiting I was thinking please have one more touch all I do is run tackle tackle go forward and put a long ball in the box and the amount of people who come to me and say that was unbelievable and that that's desire that's hunger that's passion and if you've got that you've got a chance obviously ability and technically that's all stuff you can work on improve i don't think you can i don't think you can work on it's hard to run though isn't it it's hard it takes effort it takes pain it hurts I've seen you walking in some mornings mate so walking in my back like he's never going to play a game of football ever in his life and I've been lucky I can actually move and function still today it'll be heavier but I can yeah you're lucky man move knees are fine ankles joints so I've been lucky but running is it's horrible I hate it I absolutely hate it but if you put a ball there I can do it all day listen Wadav Thank you very much.

1:04:07Appreciate your time, man. Top man, as always, take care, man.

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