The Rage in the Cage

25:27Brazil is also a cradle of mixed martial arts. Brazilian jiu-jitsu happens to be one of the dominant forms, one of the dominant styles that won the marketplace of beating the shit out of each other. Suddenly, before you realized it, by 2015, you look up and suddenly the UFC and MMA is in lots of the respectable places that had truly said, you're not allowed here anymore. And pay-per-view fees, broadcasting rights, merch, all of this stuff, people realize that, oh, you can make actual money in this. So the UFC creates a national market for televised mixed martial arts combat. And later, as more and more entrants join the space, the sport gets popular enough to move from the fringes of American culture towards its center.

26:19And somehow it gets pretty popular while maintaining this whiff of taboo to it. Like, part of the pleasure of watching it is that it feels like you're not supposed to. There is one more vector taking MMA mainstream, though. A popular podcast that, in its early episodes, mostly talked to male comedians and MMA fighters. The Joe Rogan experience. Because before Joe Rogan was even a podcaster, he was already a prominent figure in the then-niche world of mixed martial arts. It truly is an honor to welcome back to the broadcast team here in the Ultimate Fighting Championship, the host of NBC's Fear Factor, Joe Rogan, our old sideline guy interviewing the fighters years ago.

26:58Rogan in the clip looks like a different person. He's younger with a full head of hair, much less beefy, perhaps at the very beginning of his transition from L.A. stand-up and sitcom actor to eccentric philosopher Jock. I'm a huge fan of Ultimate Fighting, all mixed martial arts. Literally, I don't care about other sports. Like, the Lakers won their third championship the other day. I couldn't care less. If they made basketball illegal, it wouldn't even bother me. Joe Rogan is the announcer during the rise of all of this. He is the face, you could argue, of mixed martial arts. The Joe Rogan experience started as an MMA podcast.

27:33And we're live. So literally this morning, I had this thought. I thought about it a bit yesterday, and this morning I thought of it. I was like, why don't you just do it? I said, I need to do some sort of an MMA recap show because there's always so much shit that's happening. And I guess as a shorthand heuristic, everything Joe Rogan is, the multitudes he contains, idiot, but also at times like truly a master of subject matter. Yeah. Obscure and otherwise. Someone who can read books to completion and enjoy them. And also have these characters on who are absurd, if not outright problematic in meaningful ways.

28:16All of that is under the tent of mixed martial arts.

28:23Pablo had promised us a liberal arts view of sports, and I think we'd arrived at it. Just to stay in that view for a second, I think Joe Rogan confounds liberal arts types because he represents a version of masculinity that's fairly alien to us. To be a good man right now can often feel like an unwinnable game. So it's an anxious identity, and the solution most liberal arts men gravitate toward is to just talk about other men a lot. How they're bad, toxic, lonely. It's an identity you could understand many men not particularly enjoying. And Joe Rogan offers men a different path. He says that actually, it's very good to be a man and that he can help you be even better at it.

29:08He'll tell you what exercises to do. Everything from Nordic curls. Do you do those? Do you do Nordic curls? Um, I should. I should do more than I do. Yeah, leg curls. He'll tell you what to put in your body. Did you incorporate peptides into your recovery? I didn't. Do you hate healing? Do I hate healing? No. No, I didn't use peptides. And Joe Rogan believes that men should fight. Men should spar. There's no better stress reliever in the world than jujitsu or martial arts. There's no better. You leave there, you're the kindest person in the world. You just like heal all of your aggressions out of your system.

29:42Yeah. And it's a phenomenal stress reliever. This particular Rogan conversation is from earlier this year with Mark Zuckerberg, who'd shown up to talk about meta, but also about combat. Regardless of what you're going through day-to-day with Facebook and meta and all the different projects you have going on, it's not as hard as someone trying to choke you unconscious. It's not as acute. I think it's like sometimes you have someone trying to choke you unconscious slowly over a multi-year period, and that's business. Right. But, no, I think that sometimes in business the cycle time is so long that it is very refreshing to just have a feedback loop that's like, oh, I had my hand down, so I got punched in the face.

30:22It's like, that's like - This is a sport, again, that has a new gentlemanly sort of air to it, even if it is really appealing to those nerds, those gentlemen, on the basis of being able to confer the hyper-masculinity that they seek. Yeah. I'm trying to decide if - Like, I have questions and thoughts about this, but maybe they're, it's just, there's a, I'm so, I feel like I spent the first half of my life feeling so, like, all the problems that we culturally have with masculinity, I feel like I discovered for myself on my own getting beat up by men for, you know, 20 years. and also now in this moment where like American culture doesn't know what to do with masculinity other than sort of label it as troubled and bad but like men have to find a version of being a man that works for them as goofy as tech CEO grappling with people is I have sympathy for well what am I supposed to do like what am I supposed to do and like this feels good I don't know i have sympathy for it oh by the way like it's sports like the whole thesis of sports is you're going to enter this ecosystem in which your ego is on the line in which you need a workout to be good at it in which you need to sort of be ascetic in some ways that will cost you in other areas of your life you got to really devote yourself to it but the rewards are i think Like, I dare say, one of the healthier ways to perform the theater of gender.

31:56Yeah. Like, I hope that rather than, I don't know, tilting an election, the next tech CEO just learns Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I'm totally good with that. Of course, if this theory of the octagon is right, that male aggression might need contained, socially acceptable places to express itself, this leads us back to the question of the week. What happens when you take that sacred space and introduce to it an unmanly bout of foot tickling?

32:32After these ads, we return to our scandal. Thank you.

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36:49So to go to the scandal that took place in this octagon, like, just give me again, what is the date this transpires? Who's the tickler? Who's the tickly? Yes. So we're returning to April 2024. The tickler is named Mason Lewis. The tickly remains Tim Fargo. And as always, we are talking about Rage in the Cage 24. And so Rage in the Cage 24 provokes this scandal. Why, for the just normal UFC viewer, why were they offended by the diddly, diddly, diddly, tickly little foot? Because this question was one that immediately became thorny to sort of like disentangle. Because fundamentally there is the whole thing of this being anti-masculine.

37:37It feels like you've discovered sort of like a hack in a video game where it's like, if it worked, you shouldn't have done it because this isn't like honorable. Yeah. But I think the actual real opposition to it was not that this works too well. It's that how dare you suggest that this tickle is the reason why he won. But there was something almost more insulting about the fact that you think that these two guys who were putting their lives on the line in this way, you think that this was settled because of the tickle? Like, clearly, the people who made such a big deal of it, we were told, they were the ones, those people were the ones who were just uneducated about how MMA really works.

38:22Oh, so it's not, so the online fandom for MMA is angry. But they're not angry at the thing I would have assumed. They're not angry necessarily that a tickle transpired. It's sort of like they're angry at how outsiders are understanding the story. Like the fact that I'm here is bad. I was going to say, the fact that I'm sitting in this studio with you, I feel like is a concern for them because there's a bit of a, you know, there's like a samurai code around this. And so you get curious about this. As you're watching the reaction to this grow, is it like, is it immediate that people are upset? Or is it like, as it gets outside attention, people are getting upset?

39:04It's really when we started reporting this. Oh, you were making people upset. Yeah, so me and Dave Fleming, who's my friend and correspondent on this episode, who was himself a D1 college wrestler. The thing that Phlegm discovered as we were both just sort of like asking around, like media friends, was that like they didn't want to participate in this story because it felt like it was insulting and demeaning to this thing they loved, which had fought, as you now understand, this long campaign for a certain respectability, a certain integrity that was not being jeopardized here because it was too violent, ironically, given the long arc of the mainstreaming of the sport.

39:44It was a threat because it was reducing it to something of a punchline. Like the lack of violence in this one move, the tickle, was the thing that threatened, it seemed to us, to tug at these threads that might unravel more than a lot of defenders of the sport wanted to entertain. So the problem isn't that you're making the sport look ultra-violent. That's like the fun of the sport. The problem is that you're making it look goofy. Yeah. And their argument is a tickle happened in this match, but the tickle wasn't as decisive as you, the sort of snickering outsider, wanted to have been. So can I introduce the character of Big John at this point?

40:24Please. So there's a guy whose name is Big John, and Phlegm interviewed him over Zoom. So you are going to hear from Phlegm a bunch in the tape. I know who you are, but will you introduce yourself just for our recording and sort of just give a little bit of your background for our audience that might not know? My name is John McCarthy. If you're going to go to MMA, they call me Big John McCarthy. And he is basically the number one rules authority in mixed martial arts. At the very beginning at UFC 1, I was kind of part of the show. I was holding on to stuff, being a bodyguard. Ended up being asked to be the referee for UFC 2 and continued on for a little over a 25-year career, and it was a lot of fun.

41:09So he's been there basically from the very start. And if you want to envision Big John, just envision Steven Seagal. Okay. And you're close enough. Okay. The guy has himself like a highlight reel of him like in the octagon, basically being like a third fighter there to enforce the rules upon these ostensible maniacs. So he's like the institutional knowledge of justice in the sport. He is the guy who actually literally helped write the rule book of MMA. And what was your expectation going in like of what you're going to find talking to someone like him about this? I thought that Big John would be less dismissive of the angle of our reporting.

41:52Every time we went to Big John and pushed him on whether this worked and why shouldn't more people be doing this, he basically found any excuse to diminish the premise. The mind starts to work in a different way. And that's why I said tickling doesn't work to get you out of something while someone is creating pain. So he's just like, you guys are reporters looking for a funny story, tickling transpired, but again, not pivotal. And also, even if it was in any way impactful, it would have been on the level of, okay, this was kind of like surprising. Yeah. Because it doesn't really happen. But then that would be the ceiling of its effectiveness.

42:33And Big John also communicated to us that because of this Mason Lewis, Tim Fargo thing, which he knew about immediately as soon as we started asking about tickling. He was like, you're talking about Mason Lewis and Tim Fargo? Like, yeah. I know the exact fight that you're talking about because I had a lot of people sit there and say, is this legal? Yeah, it's legal. Absolutely legal. Is that why the person got out? No, it's not why the person got out. Lots of people had apparently online commented enough about this that he was also exhausted. Oh, he's just tired of talking about it. He's like these fucking idiots thinking that tickling is going to be the next great move in the toughest sport in the world.

43:07It's never truly worked in any realm that I've ever seen. I've seen guys try it, trying to be funny. I've never seen tickling ever stop anything in a fight. This is the guy who inscribed on effectively stone tablets what is and is not allowed in MMA. And he just was unconcerned in the way that we were concerned about like, isn't this thing important? This thing that we just saw, isn't that kind of fascinating? And he just wanted to make it very clear that we were wrong. So Big John tells you to fuck off. would you try to talk to like the official like the ufc league like do they have anything to say well the rules of ufc are helpfully published on their website and as big john confirmed it's legal you can tickle if you want it's just that why would you want to right why would you want to risk i mean this was big john's argument if you tickle me if you want to tickle me while i'm punching the shit out of you in the face, go ahead and try.

44:13But again, be careful when you do it, because if you're doing it while someone can punch you in the face, it's probably going to happen. So his thing was like, we don't need to ban tickling. It's just not even worthy of that level of constitutional amendment. I see this point. Like I can see the argument. So then this sort of, because you were not willing to abandon your premise. Correct. You wanted to talk to me. We saw the video. It does feel, you do watch the fight change. Like, I'm sorry, I'm not an expert, But I see a man in a Thighmaster lock with no way out. I see his little fingies come out.

44:44I see him tickle. And I see the fight change. So I feel like objectively something transpired. Something transpired. And we can debate how big an impact it was. But that is enough for me to not take Big John as the final authority. It was like, let's continue to interrogate this. And you know that Big John has a stake in the sport not being a goofy laughingstock. Can I tell you I'm a little worried about how much I'm talking shit about Big John? Why? Because he is big. And he's very online. Like, Big John, if you're a search engine listener as well, just know that all of this comes from a place of genuine journalistic inquiry.

45:22And I respect you and your works. Established, for the record. We'll keep it in. Where do you go next? Like, I assume you want to talk to both the tickler and the tickly. although I could imagine either one having reasons for not wanting to talk. Well, first, we got to get to the tickler. And so did you feel at all worried that the tickler would not want to talk to you? I mean, I cannot stress how annoying it became that we loved the story and the reporting and we pride ourselves on getting to the bottom of things. And the tickler was ghosting us. Yeah. We made contact once, and from then on, there was no response.

46:05I texted him multiple times. We emailed him. We called him. Dave Fleming did the same. Tried just the front door. We tried talking to people that he trained with. We tried talking to people who were associated with him in various record surges that we found. It became a worry that we had that he was avoiding us because he thought that what he had done was shameful. Or I could imagine just when there's a lot of heat kicked up online, you don't want to step out in front of it. Like, even if he thought it was okay, now it's like a weird loose thing that could blow back on him if you guys poke at it.

46:39And perhaps whether or not he knows Big John personally, perhaps he was of the opinion, which would have been fair, that this isn't the best brand to have. The Tickler. The Tickler isn't exactly, I mean. Yeah, it's like you've got the most badass Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy, the person you can do like this, and then you've got the guy that you've got to keep your little feetsies away from him. Can I give you some MMA nicknames? Yeah. The Korean Zombie. Rampage. The Axe Murderer. Shogun. The Iceman. Crow Cop. Yeah, all these people sound like they broke out of Arkham Asylum, and then you've got Gucci, Gucci, Goop.

47:19Yeah, the Natural Born Killer and the Tickler. but not exactly peers in this way. But so do you get him? Oh, we got him.

47:33So it's like four hours before his bout, but the tickler is outside the Wyndham right now, warming up or, I don't know, just getting loose. I don't see any tickle-tickle going on, but you never know, all right? We got him because we sent Dave Fleming to perhaps the most opposite place in the world, to the Playboy Mansion. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Thunder Ballroom Dome. And by that I mean we sent him to the ballroom of the Wyndham Hotel in downtown Rochester, New York. Why was that the location to send him to? Because it turns out that we waited long enough that the tickler, Mason Lewis, was actually going to fight.

48:22Oh. He stands at 5 '7", official weight of 135 pounds. He is Mason Lewis! And did he talk to Dave? After eight hours of amateur MMA fighting, in which this carpeted hotel ballroom had an octagon placed atop it, And just the visuals on this, it's just like, you know, there's the local dispensary has tables out in the hallway. The carpet is immediately stained with blood. It smells like hot dogs, and it's unclear if it's the hot dogs or the people in the octagon. Yeah. And then... All right, nice to meet you. I'm Dave Fleming. Nice to meet you, Dave. From Pablo Show. Pablo Show. Dave Fleming waits around long enough such that he can directly approach the tickler, Mason Lewis.

49:20Can you give us five minutes? Yes, I can give you five minutes. Are you done with your family? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guys, give me five minutes. Give me five minutes, okay? Awesome. Let's go over here. Yep, you got it. Mason Lewis is, in person, so baby-faced and young-looking. Like, he's actually an amateur fighter. He was, like, playing up a level at Rage in the Cage 24. Okay. And he sat down and was shockingly, shockingly open to discussing anything we wanted when it came to his nickname that we had imposed. And what did he have to say for himself? So the first thing about the tickler, Mason Lewis, is that he's very intentional.

50:00And I don't even mean that in terms of his MMA strategy. I mean that in terms of the fact that he, like, journals. Really? He's thoughtful. I'm very conscious in the cage. A lot of people just disassociate and they leave almost their mind, I want to say. I do a lot of meditation. I do at least an hour of meditation day. And I feel like that allows me to be conscious in every moment of my life, truly. And so the reason he said that he wasn't getting back to us was because he doesn't really use his phone that much. Oh, wow. He's like one of those guys. Yeah. Who like is big into journaling and not being on social media and not even really texting.

50:33And so whatever. We took that as a kind letdown, but nonetheless, he provided his credibility on the matter by just, like, openly talking about this. I don't know. I don't know why I did it. It was just like, you know what, screw it. I'm just going to tickle his foot to get out of this. You know, we're in a weird position. If he can let go of this from a tickle, then so be it. And I got to say. And the thing we asked him was, A, did he think that this worked? And so that thing, the tickling, like, was that the difference? Yeah, that could have been. Yeah. You know, it could have been the difference maker, yeah.

51:08And I knew people are ticklish. People let go. So I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. So that's just what I did. And the answer, of course, was yes. We followed up with, would he tickle again? And there was no hesitation. 100%. Okay. If that's what it takes, if that's what it takes. Of course he would. Because it worked. Because it worked. And did he have a view about the reaction to the thing that he'd done? He was, I think, a bit mystified as to how big a deal it was, because to him, it was a function of his hyper-competitiveness. So he didn't feel like he was breaking the rules.

51:49He didn't feel like he was swerving too far into taboo. From his point of view, a thoughtful, meditative, phone-avoiding, thinking man's brawler, your job is to win. Your job is to win within a very short set of rules. And he thought of something nobody had thought of before. And so, of course, he was going to do it. And also, it turns out that Mason Lewis is the youngest child of six siblings. Oh. So he was probably tickled quite a bit. He became the machine he raged against. Wow. You can use the master's tools.

52:27Well, the other thing that he says, He's like, you know, we ask him like, so given that you're the youngest of six, what would happen if someone tickled you? And he was like, oh, I'd be screwed. He would just have no defense. He would have no defense. I mean, I will say like one of the problems that I feel like nobody's pointing out in the tickling debate is that people's ticklishness is something that I think you're born with and can't change. Like, so there's people I'm basically immune to tickling. like maybe at the edges if you're lucky but I'm pretty hard to tickle but there's people who are just very ticklish and but I guess that's true of like everything in sports people are different heights people are different it's just part of it the genetic lottery has many many forms yes there is height there is strength there is your hormone level and there is ticklishness and it sounds what I'm finding out is that PJ you have a competitive edge in the world of the octagon I'll be in the octagon

53:31So he's unrepentant. He doesn't care what the raging online commentary thinks about what he's done. He believes his way is the way. What about the tickled person? You guys talk to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The tickly, Tim Fargo. He wants a rematch. My coach wants me to fight him again. He wants me to fight him so bad. He was so respectful of Mason Lewis and had been, of course, familiar with all of the jokes. Lots of people had been asking him about this, too. The internet was unkind to the tickly. They were unkind to the tickly? Because he lost to the tickler. And they think that if they were in the octagon, like, they never would have flinched at a tickle?

54:17Well, I think it's also just, like, embarrassing. Right. It's like you go to be, like, the most masculine man, and somebody gives you the equivalent of a wedgie. And he was on the way to absolutely dominating that fight. And so you could argue that he kind of choked. But Tim Fargo, the tick lead, didn't see it that way. He just saw it as he lost a match. He saw it as he lost a match to an upcoming young fighter who did a thing that he was surprised to encounter. I just think no one really thinks of it, because there's so many other techniques from most positions that we're always practicing, and no one really teaches that.

54:55So it kind of took a second, and then I realized what he was doing. But it kind of just got me mentally out of it a little bit more than actually making me want to let go, because then you're just thinking, like, this guy's tickling me in a fight. He just kind of gets you out. He testified to its effectiveness that it did, in fact, work on him, and it worked on him so well that he basically said, if we get back in the octagon, and we did get both of them to agree to want to fight each other again in this rematch, he would absolutely be willing to tickle. If I had to, if there was nothing else left, if I could get him in a tickling position, then I would.

55:37That's amazing. I mean, he was radicalized. So you could imagine a future where the two of them were squaring off and amongst the like punches and the kick and the grime, like they would just be out there with their little tickling claws like trying to tickle each other. I mean, I'd pay for that. I would totally pay for that. That would be my first UFC match. Absolutely. I would definitely go to ultimate tickling championship. It just feels like a lot of ingredients are being put into a soup in a very unusual way. Yeah. And so do you think that like part of the reason there's a push to not recognize tickling as effective is just because there's all sorts of behaviors that we recognize work, but which we think are bad for the larger system that they're in.

56:24Like, yeah, people can do this and they'll succeed, but we don't want people to do this. And so we'll try to find ways to discourage it. And do you think that that is what tickling is in this context? A useful tool that maybe for the league is bad for it to exist, but it exists and it works? That is my most core suspicion, that they know, they have a sense that this would work, and they're afraid if lots of people start doing it, and the product would fundamentally, perhaps, change as a result. Sports is full of stories like this, by the way. Sports is full of stories in which there are these hacks that get more points.

57:08Right. I'm not exactly arguing that tickling is the equivalent of something that's so effective that it would completely tilt the competitive landscape of this sport. But I do think that there might be yet another incredibly tense climactic moment at which someone is about to lose consciousness and their ego and their humiliation is absolutely on the line. And the thing they think of is the thing that Mason Lewis very intentionally decided to do. And at a certain point, I think it's entirely possible that the highlight reel, the viral clip of that moment may not be exactly what the founding fathers of MMA had envisioned.

57:55It makes me so happy to know that. It makes me so happy to know that tickling is something that they don't yet have a vaccine for. Rogan, what do you think about that, huh? Pablo, thank you. Thanks, PJ.

58:14Pablo Torre. His excellent show is called Pablo Torre Finds Out. You can go there to see some of the videos we referenced in this story and listen to their other stories. One of our staff favorites is Pablo's interview with director Ezra Edelman about his Prince documentary that was squashed by Netflix. It's so good. Go check it out and please tell them we sent you.

59:11Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Truthy Pinamanani. Garrett Graham is our senior producer. Additional production support and fact-checking by Kim Kupol. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our executive producer is Leah Reese-Dennis. And thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey. Rob Mirandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum in UTA. If you'd like to support our show and get ad-free episodes, zero reruns, and even extra interviews, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode.

59:48You can join Incognito Mode at searchengine.show. Follow and listen to Search Engine wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you in two weeks.

1:00:06Thank you.