In short
Podcast Episode Summary: What's it like to fly when you're fat?
Podcast Details
- Title: Search Engine
- Hosts: PJ Vogt, edited by Sruthi Pinnamaneni.
- Episode Title: What’s it like to fly when you’re fat?
- Episode Release: 2023
- Description: This episode explores the experiences of fat individuals when flying, focusing on the discomforts, social perceptions, and systemic issues faced in air travel.
Overview The episode delves into the uncomfortable realities that fat individuals face in air travel, from anxiety over fitting into seats to the stigma associated with their body sizes. It features personal anecdotes, societal commentary, and expert insights, particularly through the lens of Ronald Young Jr., who shares stories from his podcast "Wait For It."
Key Themes and Discussions
Introduction to the Topic
- Personal Reflection: Host PJ Vogt discusses his own insecurities about body image and expresses curiosity about others' internal dialogues regarding their bodies.
- Focus on Air Travel: The episode specifically examines the unique challenges faced by fat individuals when flying, including physical discomfort and social stigma.
Insights from Ronald Young Jr.
- Experience Sharing: Young discusses the significant anxiety that comes with flying while fat, including the fear of judgment and humiliation on the plane.
- The Need for Discourse: Emphasizes the importance of having open conversations about body size and air travel, noting that discomfort in flights is often unjustly blamed on fat passengers.
Anecdotal Evidence
- Bridget McDonald's Experience:
- Bridget shares a traumatic experience where she was asked to leave a plane due to her size, highlighting the humiliation and isolation felt in the moment.
- She describes how being a fat person on a plane leads to rigorous social negotiations to avoid inconvenience to others.
Broader Implications
- Systemic Issues: The episode points out that airlines often prioritize profit over passenger comfort, resulting in cramped seating and discomfort for all passengers.
- Fatphobia in Air Travel: Discusses how societal narratives often blame fat individuals for discomfort in crowded spaces, rather than recognizing systemic failures in airline policies.
Expert Commentary
- Aubrey Gordon's Insights: Co-host of the podcast "Maintenance Phase," Gordon discusses the shrinking seat sizes on airplanes and how this reflects a broader societal disregard for body diversity.
- Hannah Sampson's Analysis: A travel writer who comments on the general state of air travel, emphasizing that the experience is uncomfortable for many, not just fat individuals.
Potential Solutions
- Call for Universal Design: The episode ends on a hopeful note, advocating for the redesign of airplanes to accommodate diverse body types, aiming for comfort and safety for all passengers.
Key Takeaways
- Complexities of Fatness: The conversation around body size is intricate and fraught with stigma and societal expectations.
- Shared Experience: Air travel is universally uncomfortable, yet fat individuals often bear the brunt of negative perceptions.
- Need for Change: Structural changes in airline policies and airplane design are essential to create a more inclusive travel experience for everyone.
Conclusion The episode "What’s it like to fly when you’re fat?" serves as a powerful reminder of the everyday difficulties faced by fat individuals and calls for empathy, understanding, and systemic change within the airline industry. It highlights the need to move past fatphobia and create an environment where all bodies are respected and accommodated.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you in part by Quince. And I'm very curious about their real leather jackets, which are classic, stylish, and surprisingly affordable. What sets Quince apart is their quality and the way they do business. By partnering directly with ethical factories and skipping the middlemen, they deliver fabrics and craftsmanship you'd expect from luxury brands, but at roughly half the price. It's easy to build a fall wardrobe that looks high-end but feels smart for your budget. Keep it classic and cool this fall, with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com slash search engine for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
1:03That's quince.com slash search engine to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash search engine.
1:39check check check check rolling on my end okay all right here's the intro welcome to search engine i'm pj vote no question too big no question too small This week, a question about bodies. The only body I've ever been trapped inside of is my own. There's a lot of places this show goes. Taboos, uncomfortable thoughts we like to explore. Bodies and their weight, not a place we have visited.
2:09Which is not for lack of thinking about it. It's funny, if you made a chart of the things I talk about versus the things I think about, I think about my own body. its weight, the ways it is aging, so much more than I ever talk about it. And I wonder often about other people, not what it's like to live in their bodies, not what it would be like to be bigger or smaller, but more, what is the conversation their mind is having with and about their body? Is it as loud as mine, this persistent, this strange? This week, we're visiting other minds and other bodies. We're going to ask a question I've wondered about.
2:49And honestly, I always felt nervous. Like, it'd be a little too impolite or direct to ask about. If you have a big body, what is it like to get inside one of the most cramped, small, uncomfortable spaces we all have to wedge into? What's it like to get on an airplane? The world of that question is much richer and deeper than I would have thought. Cool? Yeah. That's good. That's good. Are you concerned about saying fat? Yeah, I feel like, am I allowed to say fat? Ronald Young Jr. He's a podcaster, a writer. He thinks about this stuff. I love, let me tell you, it's funny because this is the toughest conversation for me to have.
3:35Because the truth is, we are trying to make fat just a flat descriptor. but so much damage has been done using the word fat as an insult that it's tough to hear straight sized people say it and it's tough for straight sized people to say it without adding some sort of like disclaimer or apology in the beginning of the end of it but it is okay to say fat it is but the way you said it is also fine i just wanted you to know that's okay and it's tough to start getting out there and saying it because it means you have to purge it from your language as an insult. Ronald has a podcast called Wait For It, where he writes stories and interviews people about their bodies, usually about fatness.
4:13Listening to Wait For It, it doesn't exactly feel like eavesdropping on somebody else's experience. You more feel like you've just been let into a very private club. It's the thing I look for in art, the thrill of inhabiting someone else's mind. When I first heard about his show, I wasn't sure I'd want to listen to an entire series about weight. But then I realized weight here was just a lens. Like everything I like, the show wasn't just about the thing it said it was about. You know, it's funny, like in my mind, when I started making it, I had a few things that I knew I specifically wanted to talk about.
4:46And I didn't think about anything outside of those couple of things. And in the first season, I knew I wanted to talk about going to the doctor. I knew I wanted to talk about my relationship with my college, we'll say, sweetheart. And then I knew I wanted to talk generally about how I felt about influencers. I knew I wanted to talk about those things. But what I found is that as I started making the show, the more questions I was asking and answering, the more stories and answers were coming to my brain, which created more stories and more opportunities to talk about it. So I found that while making the show, I, like you, was having the same experience where I'm just like, there's still more things to talk about.
5:29And I just keep pushing that direction and more stories keep coming up. I wanted to ask you about this question in particular. Like you're covering like the world of the fat experience. You could talk about anything and you talk about a lot, like you talk about dating. You decided to cover airplanes. You know that that is a, technically the search engine owns that beat. No podcast is really supposed to talk about airplanes. Listen, man, I thought you would share a little bit with me. I thought I'd just get in there a little bit. There's plenty of room for all of us on the airplane, I thought. How did you decide you wanted to talk about airplanes?
6:05You know, I mean, I've flown more over the years. Like, the last five years has probably been the majority of the flying I've done in my life. Okay. So it's all encompassed in the last five years. And also in the last five years is the biggest I've been in my life. So interacting with planes has been a little bit different. And I don't even have the experience that some people who are even bigger than me have by getting on a plane. But I do know that there is a very specific experience that you have when you are big and going to fly. Everything from the anxiety of thinking about going through security to the anxiety of getting to your seat, seeing who you're sitting next to, and wondering if the seatbelt's going to fit.
6:45And I felt like these were questions that I was hearing within that community from other folks. and it felt like it was just important to tackle because flying sucks for everyone, yet the scapegoat always seems to be fat people. So I really wanted to unpack that. I'm going to let Ronald take it from here. His story begins with a woman he spoke to. She was on her way to a beach vacation. All she had to do was survive the flight there.
7:15I mean, the hope is that no one sits next to you, like regardless of your size. I don't know anyone who's like, Oh, goody, a stranger's going to get to be really cozy with me for a while. This is Bridget McDonald. She's talking about a flight she took to South Carolina in the summer of 2023. So you kind of do that thing where you're like, you have the armrest up. You're like rooting through your purse in the middle seat. People are passing. You're not making any eye contact. You are, oh my God, you've never been more interested in the thing that's at the bottom of your purse. You know what I mean?
7:47She flew Southwest, which was her go-to airline. Southwest has what's called an open seating policy, which allows folks to pick the seat they want when they get on the plane. Bridget had chosen a seat that she liked. I was the second row from the bathroom. So we're not talking about like prime real estate. I got in the window seat, as I always do. I put in my little seatbelt extender. No one was back there with me yet. As the plane began to fill up, the flight attendants announced that people would need to move their bags from the middle seat. Bridget could no longer feign a search inside her purse.
8:18So I put my bag underneath the seat. I was buckled in. A man sat next to me in the aisle. There was a seat between us. You can tell that it's like the end of boarding. And flight attendants are closing the overhead compartments. It looked like Bridget had succeeded. No one else was boarding, and she had an empty middle seat between her and her neighbor on the aisle. And so I was like, great, cool. Nobody's sitting between us. And I kind of looked over at the guy I knocked me and was like, all right, like sick. And I felt like awesome, like zero anxiety, not a care in the world. Bridget is describing one of the best feelings ever, and I am not exaggerating.
9:00One day I was headed out on vacation with friends who sat in a different row in between strangers, and somehow I got a seat in the empty row. My friend Travis looked at me and said, you just won the lottery. For me, it was even better than flying first class because I didn't have to pay more for the experience. But also, as a fat person, having an empty seat next to you on a flight means more than just comfort. It means less anxiety and less physical stress on your body. The main anxiety that I have does come from concerns about who's going to sit next to me. I'm like, dang, is somebody going to be sitting next to me that I'm going to have to be like rigor mortis my muscles so that I don't touch them and it's going to be awkward?
9:44Are they going to be somebody who's just like, cool? This experience of rigor mortising your muscles is very familiar for me. It's something I've done on many flights. Unlike Bridget, I prefer an aisle seat with a movable armrest because I'm not just fat. I have broad shoulders. So even if my stomach were smaller, I'd still be touching my neighbor. Sitting in the aisle allows me to lean slightly into the aisle and away from the person I'm sitting next to. But Bridget didn't have to worry about any of these contortions. She was settling in for what should have been an easy flight. So I'm sitting in my seat and I'm like, this is awesome.
10:26I'm about to be on vacation on a beach. No one sitting next to me, feeling good, riding high. And then I see the gate agent who checked our boarding passes. I see her board the plane. And I don't know what they're checking for exactly, but like they're doing their job. They're doing some things. They're checking their stuff. So I wasn't really that phased. And then the gate agent came back towards the flight attendant that was in the back. They were talking. And I just noticed them talking. And I feel like they're looking at me. And I was like, don't get in your head, Bridget. And they're kind of having like not a disagreement, but they're going back and forth.
11:00and then I see the flight attendant say, no one is going to sit next to her. And all of a sudden the gate agent's walking towards me and her look on her face is like, I don't want to do this, but okay. So she's walking over and she goes, ma 'am, could I speak with you off the plane? Off the plane. Everyone is boarded. And I was like, oh my gosh. So then I start thinking to myself, has someone died? Is this like, am I getting like, has something gone wrong? Like, and so I'm like, should I bring my stuff? And she says, no, no, you can leave your stuff. And then I'm like, okay, what? Now, mind you, Bridget was sitting at a window seat two rows away from the bathroom at the back of the plane.
11:44Her getting off would require her seatmate getting up to let her out. Then a long walk from the back of the plane to the front of the plane with everyone looking, wondering, and judging as she walked by. And for any person at all, but especially like a plus size person who has been on a plane before, you know, I'm doing the like side like crab kind of walk. I'm like trying to like swish my hips so that they're not like getting in everybody's face from the back of the plane. Bridget followed the gate agent to the desk where they were joined by another gate agent, a man. And I was like, can you just tell me what's going on?
12:20And I'm going to be honest with you, I knew. Like in my heart of hearts, I was like, this has something to do with my size. And I knew it. and she said, the flight attendant in the back of the plane wants you to be deboarded and reboarded as per our customer of size policy. And she was like, to be honest with you, I didn't even really see a problem when I boarded the plane and saw you, but she insisted. And so the tears are coming. I can feel them coming. They're welling up. And this poor guy, this male gate agent was like, I don't even really think you're big like that. And I looked at him and I was like, oh, I am.
13:03I'm big, but that's not illegal. I mean, that's not, I can board a plane and be big. And then I said, is someone not able to board because of me? And they said, no. So is someone complaining about my size, the flight attendant. And then I started freaking out. Like, I'm about to fly on a plane with someone who, in theory, one of the people responsible for my safety has decided that I need to be deboarded and reboarded for no reason other than just being labeled as fat. I just am, I don't. And I started to feel like, should I get back on this plane? Bridget had already been on the plane, already settled in her seat, but then removed from the plane and humiliated because she was fat.
13:54Nobody would have blamed her if she decided not to get back on. But she did. The gate attendant officially reserved the seat next to Bridget as per the Southwest Customer of Size policy, and then walked her back down the jet bridge and onto the plane. She apologized several times, and she apologized at one point and said, There is one flight attendant that's deadheading on this flight. Deadheading is the term used when a flight attendant or pilot travels as a passenger on a flight to another location to work on a subsequent flight. And I am going to walk you back down and make damn sure that they do not sit next to you because they could have chosen still to sit next to me.
14:40We don't know exactly why the flight attendant wanted Bridget to reserve the seat next to her as per the customer of size policy. But based on this interaction with the gate agent, my speculation is that the flight attendant who was deadheading didn't want to sit next to Bridget. But since that was the only available cabin seat on the flight, that's where they would have to sit. But if that seat were taken, then they would be able to sit in one of the available jump seats away from the main cabin. We don't know this for sure because Southwest never responded to Bridget's complaint that she would file later.
15:14Nevertheless, the gate agent wanted to confirm that after all this trouble, nobody would be sitting next to Bridget. I reboard the plane. I have been crying. I put my hat down. I do the crab walk back through the what feels like 100 rows. I get to my seat. The gentleman on the aisle stands up. I get back in my seat. I buckle it up. I face the window. I put my hat down and I cried for the better part of the next 75 minutes of this flight. Bridget made it to her destination safely without further incident. And until I asked her to tell me the story for Wait For It, hadn't planned on talking about it again.
15:57I asked her why, and this was her response. I'm going to start crying. I felt like talking about it would like open people up for commentary on me being fat. And I've done like a pretty good job up to this point in my life to not really like invite or welcome that in. And I was just feeling really, I mean, I was humiliated.
16:34I think it's probably because there's part of me that did feel like it was my fault.
16:42There's probably part of me that thinks, like, it is your fault. You are fat.
16:51Bridget's story is my worst nightmare. Being marched off a full plane, then back on with everyone's eyes on you. People likely blaming you for the flight being delayed. She said it herself. It was humiliating. And I can relate to her tendency to blame herself. I assume that most things are my fault because I'm fat, even more so when it comes to flying. And these humiliating stories aren't uncommon. I've heard many horror stories about being fat and flying, even though it's risky to tell them because sharing these stories opens fat folks to further humiliation. It feels like everyone agrees with the voice inside Bridget's head and inside my head.
17:36Well, it is your fault because you are fat. But I don't think that fat folks should be the scapegoat for a problem that we didn't create. So who is to blame? That's after the break.
18:17This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Dell. Introducing the new Dell PC powered by the Intel Core Ultra Processor. It's not just an AI computer. It's a computer built for AI. That means it's built to help do your busy work for you. So you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you were looking for, managing your schedule, meeting your deadlines, responding to Jim's long emails.
18:46Leaving all the time in the world for more you time and for the things you actually want to do. No events, Jim. Get a new Dell PC at dell.com slash ai-pc. How those ahead stay ahead.
19:22Learn about their specialized talent in finance, accounting, technology, marketing, legal, and administrative support at Robert Half. They know talent. Visit roberthalf.com slash talent today.
19:52That is the sound of my phone going through an x-ray machine and of me gathering my stuff, putting it back into the bags and in my pockets, and restacking the bins. Then I can put my shoes back on. All right. Finally got through security. I'm currently at Austin Airport. There are two anxieties I have during flying. specifically. One of them is, uh, crap, drive my ticket. Yeah. Okay. One of them is going through security and the second is physically getting on the plane. Um, typically what happens is that, uh, you know, I'm just like generally anxious about what it's going to take to get my shoes off, my jacket off, am I wearing a hat, did I wear the right shoes, unpack everything.
20:59If I can take a flight without a major incident, like what happened to Bridget, then it's a success. But I spend a lot of time avoiding minor incidents when I take plane trips. Minor incidents like being groped on my chest and crotch by TSA because I have man boobs and my stomach hangs low and the x-ray machine reads my body as me hiding prohibited items. Minor incidents like the flight attendant making a grand show of getting me a seatbelt extender when I surreptitiously ask for one as I get on the plane. Minor incidents like bumping into someone as I try to walk down the narrow aisle to my seat.
21:34Minor incidents like seeing the concerned face of someone who realizes that they're sitting next to me. So if I sound anxious in the tape you just heard, it's because I am anxious, and I just want to walk off the plane at my destination, having not been humiliated.
21:57Everything I do at an airport and on the flight is to draw the least amount of attention to me as possible so that I don't get marched off the plane. Go ahead and get you right over here. I have to shrink myself.
22:23Recently, I read a book that I felt characterized my experience flying very accurately. It's called What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat. And the name of the chapter was Into Thin Air. Here's a passage. I had long since learned that any free space belonged to the thin. My arms were already crossed tight over my chest, thighs squeezed together, ankles overlapped beneath my seat. My body was knotted, doing everything it could not to touch him, not to impose its soft skin. I folded in on myself, muscles aching with contraction. That, of course, is... Aubrey Gordon. My pronouns are she, her, and hers.
23:06I've written a couple of books, both What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat and You Just Need to Lose Weight and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. Those are books that I wrote after writing anonymously for several years under the name Your Fat Friend. And now I co-host a podcast with Michael Hobbs called Maintenance Phase. I've followed Aubrey's work for many years and was very excited to talk with her about air travel as she's talked and written about it extensively. We talked quite a bit about what she does when she flies in order to shrink herself. I try not to drink very much water, so I don't have to go up and go to the bathroom.
23:44I also know that my mouth gets dry sometimes, so I bring a lot of mints, so I don't have to ask for drinks, which also means reaching over the row and, again, reminding them that there's a fat person here who's making them physically uncomfortable in some way, right? Right. I bring my own seatbelt extender and I check for it as often as I check for, you know, my phone or my boarding pass or my wallet. Right. I have a very specific posture and I feel like most fat people I know who fly have similar sort of postures for themselves. I use one hand to grab the opposite elbow so that my arm, so that as little of my arm as possible is in anything that anyone else could interpret as their space, right?
24:32So I end up sort of with my back twisted and my elbow pulled off to one side for most of the flight. It's not super comfortable. Aubrey's doing the same thing I'm doing, attempting to avoid a crab walk to the front of the plane, doing whatever we can do to make sure our neighbor is comfortable and doesn't complain. Because if they get the flight crew involved, trouble could arise. When someone near you asks to be reseated, it's usually after everyone else is in their seats. And the whole plane becomes like a theater, right? And everyone's just watching this one thing play out. and you just become aware that there are like hundreds of people around you who understand exactly what's happening and don't even feel compelled to check in with you and see how you're doing.
Read the full transcript
25:26People just silently watch and it feels like the clearest referendum that I get that like not one of these people on this plane is thinking of me as a human being who is deserving of their compassion. You know, they're just watching it play out and thinking, I would feel the same way or whatever they're thinking. But none of that has to do with, I wonder if that person's okay, or this is terrible, and this person shouldn't have to experience this. That is a terrible feeling that nobody should have to experience. But I feel like it's important to state that even without incident, flying is generally a terrible experience.
26:12I remember during a recent trip, I was sitting in my seat and as I watched the rest of my traveling companions trudge past me to their seats, I realized that no one seemed to be having a good time. It could be the first leg of a trip that ends in a vacation. They could be headed to see their loved ones or family or to collect a million dollars. No matter the destination, most people had expressions of some level of irritation. People talk about like the cattle car experience or being in the Greyhound bus of the sky. And I think that's how a lot of people feel when they're flying. They're just kind of being marched onto the plane and forced into their little pens and then marched off and barked at.
26:55And nobody loves that. It's not a great time. That is Hannah Sampson. She's a staff writer for The Washington Post. And I've been writing about travel in general for about 14 years. Hannah has written a lot over the years about airlines making changes in their services and amenities, and I wanted her to tell me the general state of air travel and what flying was currently like for most travelers. What it's like to fly right now is cramped, busy, crowded. It's generally safe, but it is not, in many cases, a pleasant experience. Airlines have been cramming more people onto flights. So the chances of getting, you know, an empty seat next to you when you fly or stretching out with extra legroom are pretty low.
27:45If you've flown recently, this isn't exactly breaking news. But what bothers me is that the conversations I've heard about flying have often included straight-sized people complaining about sitting next to a fat person as an additional frustration of flying. As if we're just another thing contributing to cramped spaces and planes instead of people who are sharing this experience with you. Aubrey Gordon again. That is a culturally acceptable way of processing our frustration with flights or feeling out of sorts when we get off a plane or whatever. It's totally fine to say there was a crying baby or there was a fat person, right?
28:24That becomes our way of expressing frustration and no one tells us not to, generally speaking. So we just sort of keep doing it rather than anyone going, hey, wait a minute, if you were uncomfortable, what if the seats had been different? What if you just had more space? But that's often not a question that comes up because, like Bridget said earlier, it feels like it's our fault, or at least we're made to feel like it's our fault as fat folks. I think the main narrative about fat people is I don't have to have sympathy for you or consider your humanity because as far as I'm concerned, you brought this on yourself, right?
29:07Like, if there's a villain here, there's no question that it's airlines, right? If you've ever been uncomfortable on an airplane, the people you should be mad at, and frankly, the people I'm mad at, are the Boeing designers. This is your host speaking. This has been my thinking recently. Why is anyone on a plane mad at other passengers? Unless someone is being inconsiderate invading your space, like, say, putting their feet on your shoulders or drooling on you while they sleep, when we're flying, there's going to be a lot of incidental encroaching on each other's spaces. It's just going to happen.
29:44But we're all in this together. There's no reason to be mad at someone that's in the same situation that you are. Even if a baby is crying or someone is snoring, you could put on headphones. But it seems that we're expecting that the tacit agreement is that if you're going to fly, you better conform to the space that you're allowed, rather than allowing for discussion about why that space seems to be shrinking. And one of the reasons for the squeeze is that airlines have been constantly changing how they offer services. These changes, Hannah says, stem from the introduction of budget airlines like Spirit and Frontier.
30:23They came in and competed with these very low prices, and that forced the bigger airlines like Delta and American to carve out like a bottom, bottom rung for passengers of kind of a basic economy experience where you get like, no, no perks whatsoever. You just you get a ticket and you get to bring a personal item and everything else is just like, be glad that we saved a space for you. I remember when the idea of basic economy was introduced. This bottom rung level of travel that I think is beautifully characterized by Hannah saying, be glad we saved a space for you. Airlines essentially took the parts of travel that we assumed would come naturally as a part of the ride and have begun charging for each portion of it.
31:10everything was becoming a la carte. If you're paying the cheapest$150 round trip ticket, you're not the comfort passenger in that case. You're the bare bones passenger and you're going to pay for your cheap flight with a lack of comfort and a lack of amenities. And the reason this is happening feels pretty obvious, but I asked Hannah for her take anyway. There has been no balance when it comes to revenue versus passenger comfort? Why do you think that they are on the side of revenue versus passenger comfort? I mean, so airlines are really focusing on revenue because they're publicly traded companies.
31:56Like their duty is to their shareholders and they are held accountable by Wall Street. So, I mean, that's kind of top of mind in all of their business decisions. And I would agree that it's good business decision for customers to be happy and comfortable and to want to fly their airline. But really, I would say the way that they've been thinking about comfort is how can we make a more comfortable experience that you will then pay more money for?
32:29This is flying right now. Capitalism at its finest. essentially charging to the point that for some folks, flying isn't even an option for them financially. And for those who can afford to fly, you can expect to have a more cramped trip regardless of where you're going, unless you cough up more money. And this is frustrating for everyone. Here's Aubrey reading from her book again. I have yet to meet anyone who raves about the cushy seating in the coach section of a commercial airliner. Flying is expensive, cramped, trying, and taxing. Luggage gets cumbersome. We miss connections. Our relationships get strained.
33:09And at the height of all that stress, boarding, my wide, soft body becomes their target. Rather than being a compatriot stuck in the same cramped, uncomfortable position as everyone else, I become a scapegoat for all their frustration. In moments like those, it's hard to get angry with a corporation, its executives, and industrial designers. It's much easier to get angry with the fat person who dared to fly. I can't tell you how many times I've been slammed by the beverage cart because I was leaning into the aisle to get away from my seat neighbor. Or explain to you the anxiety of having to walk down the aisle to a bathroom that I can barely fit inside of.
33:53And even in these times, I wasn't mad at the airline. I was mad at myself. Whenever I think about losing weight or imagine myself thinner, one of the first experiences I think about is comfortably sitting in an airplane seat. But that target is moving because the seats keep shrinking. After the break, we talk about why. Thank you.
35:19Thank you. to have million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash pjsearch. That's linkedin.com slash pjsearch to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
35:41This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Zapier. Over the last few months, everyone's been talking about AI. It's in the headlines, it's on social feeds, and it's dominating conversations. But here's the thing, talking about trends doesn't make anyone more efficient at work. For that, you need the right tools. You need Zapier. Zapier is how you break the hype cycle and put AI to work across your company, for real. With Zapier's AI orchestration platform, you can bring the power of AI to any workflow. So your team can do more of what matters. Connect top AI models like ChatGPT and Claude to the tools your team already uses.
36:16Whether that's building AI-powered workflows, running an autonomous agent, setting up a customer chatbot, or something else entirely, you can orchestrate it with Zapier. Zapier is for everyone, tech expert or not. Teams across rev ops, marketing, sales, IT, HR, and more have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using Zapier. Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com slash search. That's Z-A-P-I-E-R dot com slash search.
37:12Thank you. and more. What makes Rosetta Stone work is their immersive method. No clunky English translations, just a natural build from words to phrases to full sentences. So you can actually start thinking in the language. So don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. Search Engine listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50 % off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine to get started and claim your 50 % off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com slash search engine and start learning today.
38:04So in my conversation with Aubrey about airlines, she mentioned something specific about the seat sizes shrinking. Not only are we going to make these seats It's small enough that they don't fit most people, but we're actually going to shrink them over time under pressure from airlines. Right. In between, I think it was 2009 and 2019, the seat width on U.S. airplanes decreased by about 10 percent. That's just within 10 years. Right. It's true. The shrinking seat sizes have been so alarming that Congress and the FAA have been called on to intervene. Congress is like, hey, what's going on with these shrinking seats?
38:46It's not safe for people if there's an emergency evacuation because you're supposed to be able to get off the plane in 90 seconds. That's Andrea Sachs, another reporter with The Washington Post. She's been covering travel for 24 years. She's written quite a bit about the intersections of disability and air travel, as well as the experiences of plus-sized folks flying. Andrea filled me in with what happened with Congress. They went to FAA. They said, you need to do some testing on this and some public comment. And they got 27 ,000 comments, I believe. I don't know anyone who was like, oh, they're perfect size for me.
39:24Most people were like, these are way too small. Someone said the average American cannot fit into a seat that's 17 inches wide. And to Aubrey's original point, 17 inches wide is actually more generous than what's reported. In some cases and configurations, economy class seats can be as small as 16 inches wide. And keep in mind, this puts you right up next to your seatmate who is also struggling in their 16-inch seat, only 28 inches in some cases from the person in front of them. It's not just people of certain girth. It's people who have height and they have broad shoulders. It's pregnant women.
40:03So it falls under the large category of really all Americans. So where it stands now is that Congress is putting pressure on the FAA to come up with a minimum seat size that would be considered safe for everyone. This would be the start to solving the cramped travel on a plane and would be helpful to plus-size travelers who are already doing everything they can to not encroach on their neighbors. And while I think it's a little troubling that the government has to intervene to fix this, we already know that given the opportunity, we can't count on the airlines to do right by its passengers. For instance, let's take a return trip with Bridget home from vacation.
40:45I was so shook up from that instance that I changed my flight and I followed their customer of size policy. Bridget has flown on Southwest Airlines over 50 times and had never used their customer of size policy. But after her incident with the flight attendant, she didn't want to take any chances. Here's Andrea Sachs again with the policy details. You can book online a second seat and then you will get it refunded. Or if you don't want to do that, you can also just go to the gate and right before boarding, if there's availability, they will allow you to have a second boarding pass. You also get priority boarding, which is a nice perk when you want to have maximum control of where you're sitting.
41:28You do have to pay for the second seat. You receive the refund after you travel, or you have to risk asking at the gate before boarding and have to hope there's room to do it. Bridget paid the extra money and did it online. But when she got to the airport, she ran into some trouble once again when talking to the ticketing agent. I told her and she said, oh, OK, yeah, no problem. but she didn't look like it was no problem. Like she looked like, I don't really know how to do this. And she ended up handing me back two boarding passes for two different people, Bridget McDonald and Bridget X McDonald.
42:00And I was like, I don't think that's right. I got to my gate and I went up to the desk and I said, hey, this is my situation. I'm a customer of size, if you can't tell. And here are my tickets. Did they do this right at the full service desk? And she looks and she goes, no, this is not correct. This is as if you're two different people. And I was like, right. So what do we do? And ended up canceling my tickets altogether. Then tried to re-get me on the plane. And now it's sold out. The gate agent was able to get Bridget one seat on the plane. Just one. Which put Bridget back in the position she was in during her original trip.
42:41At risk of having someone humiliate her while traveling. Bridget wasn't going to put up with this again. So I ended up having to have a really serious conversation with her where I said, ma 'am, I know this isn't your fault, but I got to tell you something. On my way here, this is what happened to me. And I explained it to her. And I'm like, I'm crying, but I'm like steadily, like I'm crying in a way that's not like my voice is quivering. It's just like tears are coming down because I'm so frustrated. And I said, and I understand that this is not your fault. However, I'm going to tell you what, I am going to be boarding that plane as a priority.
43:13and I'm going to trust that you will have this sorted by the time that I get on the plane. Because for doing all this, I'm getting on that plane first. And I'm getting a reserve seat.
43:34Bridget successfully got on the plane with priority boarding and got the reserved seat next to her and by all accounts had an uneventful trip home, which is exactly what should have happened the first time. But I really hate this experience for Bridget, and this story really bothers me because Southwest, at least anecdotally, is supposed to be the best airline for fat folks, and they're not even getting it right. Bridget tried to follow the rules and was met with several layers of obstacles and was required to advocate for herself in a way that most fat folks don't necessarily have the energy for when they're just trying to get to their destinations.
44:12That's not to say that the open seating and customer of size policies and priority boarding aren't great. They are. And there are plenty of fat folks who have benefited from these policies and flown comfortably. But Bridget didn't and others won't, I'm sure. And also, this is a policy of one airline. An airline that, like Hannah Sampson said, is subject to the whims of shareholders and has to make money. which means we're depending on them to do right by their passengers, and we have to hope that the right and comfortable policy aligns with the most lucrative one. So unless Congress puts pressure on the FAA to make the airlines do something, there's no guarantee that policies that may benefit fat folks and honestly all folks, like open seating, won't go away.
44:59Because open seating is going away. They started to give hints a few months back And sure enough, they announced just recently that that process, that whole wild boarding position, grab the seat that you want process is going away. And they're going to assign seats and also have certain seats that they will consider premium that you have to pay extra for. So a total vibe shift in the Southwest offering. For plus-size passengers, this means the one airline that was doing the most for fat folks is now going to be just like every other airline. And I just want to get to my final destination with no incidents, major or minor.
45:51I'm concerned that eventually I'm going to be marched off the plane. I'm going to be forced to buy a second seat. I'm going to get my picture taken and go viral for being the fat man on the plane who dared to fly. And I think despite knowing for a fact that it won't be my fault, I'll still bear the blame because I'm fat. My options are to lose weight and don't travel by plane until I do or wait for an act of Congress. So, like, if you could wave a wand and fix air travel for fat folks, what would you change specifically? I would aim for planes that are designed with the principles of universal design in mind, because I'll tell you what, planes are not very accessible for fat people one bit.
46:38They're also not super accessible for parents with little kids. They're also not super accessible for disabled people, for wheelchair users or anybody using mobility aids, right? So if instead of thinking, the only people really designing for here are short and thin, what if we thought about here's the breadth of human bodies that exist, what's the vehicle that we could make that would carry the most of those human bodies, the widest range of those human bodies? That, to me, would feel like a huge win, to have us designing planes for people rather than insisting that people fit planes. I don't know if we'll ever see the day where they're designing planes in that way.
47:26But until they do, please remember, even fat folks have places to be. And we just want to get there in peace.
47:46Ronald Young Jr. He's the host of the show Wait For It. That's Wait For It, W-E-I-G-H-T. Definitely go check it out. The best place to start is season one, episode one.
48:12Okay, Ronald, you have a recommendation to share with us before we go. I do. So, my friend, Nicole Hill, brilliant audio producer, has a new show that I'm very excited about and I really enjoy. It's called Our Ancestors Were Messy. It's out in February. Our Ancestors Were Messy. Yes, it is so good. It is essentially her diving into the Black newspapers of yesteryear and kind of instead of telling stories about like segregation and racism, just talking about stories about Black people living and how that looks in the newspapers. Because these are Black newspapers and they were talking about Black people, but there was a lot of gossip that was happening.
48:53So she's telling these true stories of Black gossip from yesteryear from these very classic newspapers that we don't hear about. She did a lot of research and digging, and the stories are so much fun. They're so much fun. They're hilarious. She's a great host, and it's sound designed well. It's just, it's really, it's almost like if you want to listen to, like, a normal gossip, but just that it's set in a specific time way back in the day. It's like, ugh, just great listening. Our Ancestors Were Messy from Nicole Hill. That's so cool. It's like a mashup of, like, normal gossip and, like, a historical period.
49:30Yeah, almost like normal gossip and drunk history, minus the drinking, or like light drinking, I think. Okay, our ancestors were messy. And this is coming out in February? Yes, this comes out in February. Awesome. Yeah. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinnemaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Ronald's story was originally broadcast on Wait For It. It was called Into Thin Air, and that episode was produced and written by Ronald Young Jr., the story editor with Sarah Dealy, sound design and mixing from the Reverend John Delore of Starlight Diner.
50:14Wait For It theme music from J-Red, with additional music in this episode from Mass Potential, the artist DT, and the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Hey, Breakmaster. Wait For It is a production of Oh, It's Big Ron Studios, and is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX. Special thanks to Bridget Quinn McDonald, Aubrey Gordon, Hannah Sampson, Andrea Sachs, Diana Howell, and the rest of the kind folks at The Washington Post. Search Engine's executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Pirello, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
50:49Crowley, Rob Mirandy, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Kate Hutchison, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJ Vogt. Now, for free, on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for us this week. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
51:19This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Perfectly Snug. I am a hot sleeper. I do all the right things and still wake up at 3 a.m. wide awake and sweaty. Perfectly snug is a fix for that. It's a two-inch mattress topper with whisper quiet fans that actively move heat and humidity away from your body. The sensors actually work. You don't have to fiddle with settings in the middle of the night. And if you, like me, need quick relief, burst mode cools things down in about 10 minutes. I recommend their dual zone setup so that one side of the bed can run cooler than the other side of the bed.
51:54And there's no water to refill and nothing snaking off the bed. It's just a slim topper that sips power. Set up is a few minutes. They offer a 30-night risk-free trial with free shipping and returns. If you, like me, are tired of sweating through the night, try Perfectly Snug.
From the publisher
One of the most routine and uncomfortable miracles many of us experience, flight. Airplanes have gotten increasingly more cramped and less comfortable. What’s it like flying as a fat person, all the invisible negotiations and strategizing. Audio Producer Ronald Young, Jr. reports on the experience, and why it’s been changing.
Check out Weight For It! (We recommend you begin at the beginning, with episode one.)
If you want to support Search Engine, you can sign up to be a premium subscriber over at searchengine.show.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices