Bend It Like Beckham with Nikkitha Bakshani

0:06Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the culture we love that society sometimes makes us feel ashamed of. My name is Caroline, and there is a reason that Sporty Spice is the only one of them without a fella. When we taught our full Indian dinner, the rest is up to God. It's Nikita Bakshani. Thank you so much for having me, Caroline. What a great intro. You have such perfect lines. This is such an exciting day. We're finally doing Bend It Like Beckham. Thank you so much for coming to me with this movie. I was so surprised when I was doing my little background research on you that you are American, that you're from New York.

0:41And I was like, wow, I think of this film as such a British film. And it kind of, it sort of almost appalled me that Americans have heard of it. Tell me, how did it come into your life? So I actually saw this movie when I was in India on vacation. Oh, right. Okay. And I remember it was this like movie theater. It's kind of this like movie complex that had just opened up. And it was like so empty. And it was just me and my family in this empty movie theater watching Bended Like Beckham. And it was such an incredible movie. I mean, at the time when I saw it there, I was like, I've never seen anything like it.

1:13And I feel like that, I think maybe because the history of Indian people in the UK is so much older, right, that it has been in America. Although, I mean, I'm sure there's five contexts I'm missing. But from my perception, right, it was just this kind of, yeah, like it was this movie that I'm not sure I would have seen in America. And it's funny that you say this because I was doing some research yesterday and I'd read that they want in America, they want to change the title of the movie to move it like Nia. Yes, I read that too after a female player I'd never heard of. Yes, yes. Who's like the tiniest part of the movie.

1:54But then they were like, no, we're keeping it back up. And I kind of love that because for me, this movie is so proudly British. right and having lived now in the uk for seven years like it's something that i just really like about the movie that it's really like it's not about being like you know indian diaspora which is so vague right it's about being like an indian person in the uk at a very specific time in a very specific community because so many indian communities like they're not um they're not a monolith right she's like very much a punjabi family yeah yeah um yeah and so yeah this is i i I mean, that being said, so many people in America that I know like love this movie.

2:35OK. We're really, really drawn to it. I remember actually right out of college, my first internship was at this like very kind of like highfalutin literary magazine. And I remember like my two, the people I work for, I don't know why we started talking about it, but they loved this movie. They absolutely loved it. And it's not the kind of movie I would A, expect them to hear of and B, love so much. But I think it kind of took on this kind of cult status, cult classic status in the US. It's kind of crazy how huge it is, right? I don't really know. You don't really meet people who have seen Men It Like Beckham who aren't obsessed with it.

3:13And everybody I've ever met has seen it. And it's like they made it for something like 4 million quid and it grossed 75 million. Like it's an insane achievement for like a low budget movie, you know, from a British Indian director. Like it's like it breaks so many records on so many levels. And it's like so inspiring just as a piece of film. Like I find in general, you know, this is my sort of adopted culture, I guess. I've been in the UK for 13 years and there's nothing I find more like arresting or beautiful about this country than the British film scene. I find it to be so eternally moving to me.

3:53And like to me, it's always like a little bit shit. Do you know what I mean? It's so true. There's just something about like in the opening, especially as well, and I've complained about this on the podcast before, but where everything that is made for us now is so intentionally about very rich people and so intentionally about big houses. and I'm so sick of seeing big houses and I can feel my taste really shifting to a place where I want to look at stories about people who live in ordinary roads and ordinary streets during ordinary times. And I hope, I think actually the consensus might be moving with me in that.

4:29And so just like watching this girl who like grew up near Heathrow Airport join a football team is something like moving about that alone. Like watching her just be in the park with her friends is moving alone, you know? And like, I think just, I just, I admire the ambition of it so much. And like, I think Grinda was sort of 42 when she made this movie, I think was her second feature. And there's something so ambitious about it being like, no, it's not just a movie about an Indian girl who wants to play football. There's also a wedding. The wedding also gets called off. There's also an American scout.

5:08There's an Irish love interest. That's political too. Do you know what I mean? it's like I just love creators who throw it all the fuck in you know she throws it all the fuck in and then she also has so much fun with it and I think like really that's the thing that resonates like with this movie with me and I think a lot of people so much is that it's just like very joyful yeah um you know like there's yeah there's issues here right there's racism there's sexism there's but it just in the context of the movie it's all just kind of it's it works out yeah and I'm so glad you mentioned the interiors and the houses too because I was thinking about like literally the interiors of Jess's house and how you know there's a big picture of Guru Nanak right who's like the saint and they're kind of squashed he's always like a member of the family the way he's referred to like he might as well be flesh and blood standing there exactly swear on Babaji it's always there that you know even like his the home bar right where the father kind of occupies this corner where it's like kind of his space and then also her room right where it's like kind of in the attic right so the picture of Beckham is just kind of literally bending literally like over and uh and yeah and like just yeah I think like there's so much kind of very subtle messages about class in the family that yeah I find really uh absent from from movies British movies especially today uh right or I mean maybe I just haven't seen enough um I think I've seen a lot I just I haven't noticed it but like you know the part where um the wedding is called off right and they're kind of like they kind of did it because they didn't think we're good enough yeah for them like it was definitely like them just using right um Jess and the potential kiss with Joe like as an excuse to be like that family's not they work at you know father works at Heathrow like they're working class family yeah um and like the and the way that is sort of shown the way the wedding being on the wedding being off is sort of the taking down the fairy lights something just so unbelievably dear about that constantly and then it's like and it's so um you know in any kind of british film there is always like as such a even if it's not the because i you know i would say sort of race and gender are far far more the plot and the sort of big signifiers of this movie rather than class but even so it is impossible to ignore class signifiers in any kind of british movie because it is the national obsession and it's like the kind of slight differences in um jules's upbringing and the kind of the way her mom is is just like it's just the most well-observed sort of like upwardly mobile middle-class woman ever the way she like dresses for ascot like the way yeah it works at her like daughter's football game the way that house is styled the kind of specific kinds of rose bow that she has in the back garden yeah kind of like a proscenium archway it's just everything is so just perfectly both absolutely that time and that place but also could be a hundred years ago for sure and you're right it's so subtle right it's like when her when jess's father is teaching um her mom the rules of football he's like the salt is here she's like it's a sea salt it's a sea salt yes oh my god yeah and also when they're playing football and she storms out.

8:18She's like, look at the state of my fuchsias.

8:23I can't believe I've seen this movie so many times and I've missed the Itsy salt. There's a whole thing of really describing what kind of salt that you had. And then we got pink Himalaya and the game was blown open. Salt is a huge signifier, I feel. What kind of salt you use, right? I know. It's used as like a... At a certain point in the 90s, it became not okay to have like the granular small soul in the big sort of pores. But for people who possibly haven't seen it, I can't imagine who that would be. I feel like if you've seen the poster and seen the title, you can probably guess the whole movie.

9:02But would you do us the honor of like a short premise, please? Yes, yes. So the short premise, as short as I can make it, is that this movie about Jess Bambra, who is, I think she's just between high school and university. She lives in Hounslow, so near Heathrow Airport, in a very traditional family that's working class. And she is about to go to university, but she loves football. She's obsessed with football. she's got pictures of Beckham or as her father calls it all these bald men all these bald men yeah why don't you put up some pictures of nice scenery instead of all these pictures of bald men

9:51so funny there's so many just like little like one-liners like that in this movie that just kill me every time all of these bald men but yeah but she's obsessed with Beckham she talks to her poster of Beckham. She loves football. That is her passion. And she's good at it. Right. And one day when she's playing at the park, she is spotted by Jules, who plays for a women's league in the area. And so Jules convinces her to join this team and kind of opens her world up to the to the world of the idea of women's professional football, of women's professional football. And her justice family is against it because they don't want her running around half naked in front of 70 ,000 men.

10:34As her mother says in the montage, in the dream montage where Gary Lineker is commenting. Oh my God. Can we pause on the dream montage? It's so lovely. It's, and again, so ambitious. Because once again, they made this movie for$4 million. That makes it a low budget movie. And they were like, you know what? No, it needs to have a kind of like, and also the technology with CGI at this point, fairly primitive compared to where we are now. we need to insert our main character into an England game and then we need to have Gary Lineker et al. Narrating her. And it's like, wow, Garenda, how did you do that?

11:12How did you fucking swing that, bitch? I feel like she's, she strikes me as always very persistent, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. And so then back to the synopsis and so her parents are against it and also around this time because this movie tries to pack in a lot successfully. Her sister is getting married and she keeps lying to her parents about she says that she has a summer job, etc. But then she keeps getting found out over and over again that she's been playing women's football. And then one day the wedding is called off because her sister's husband's family kind of sees her hanging out with Jules and thinks that they're making out and just kind of uses it as an excuse to be like, let's call off the wedding.

12:00And then so like just time and time again, we see her passion for football kind of at odds with like her family and her being forbidden to do it. But then she just keeps going back and doing it. And then she also has a fight with Jules because they both fancy their coach, Joe, Irish Joe. Irish Joe. I have so much to say on Irish Joe, but I will leave that for just one moment. And then, yeah, but, you know, in the end, her, have I given a synopsis or like a full recap? This is good. No, it's good. It's hypnotizing and I love it. Okay, good. I'm glad. So then, you know, eventually, right? Oh, there's also, there's so much in this movie.

12:39Exactly. She packs it in. She packs it in. There's, you know, her best friend who's gay, right? Who comes out by saying he really likes Beckham. I wonder who was italicized in the script really likes Beckham but he's very supportive of her and so at her sister's wedding which is on the same day as the tournament he offers like let me take you to the football game there's an American scout there play it we can go come back no one will know and she's just kind of like absolutely not I've like broken my family's heart enough I'm not going to do it again but then her father comes in and notices how miserable she is and he's like you know what just go like I can't see you this sad at your sister's wedding and so she goes and she wins and she plays the best ever because she's not keeping secrets from her family and so yeah so in the end she comes back and you know they try to kind of Tony that's her her best friend tries to like you know help her out by getting her into the sham marriage you know so that she can go play football but then she kind of comes out she I guess she has her own coming up to her family where she's like, I'm not going to hide.

13:47This is what I want to do. I really want to go to America and play football professionally. And I want to do it like with your blessing. I don't want to hide. And then eventually, you know, parents are like, you know what? At least I've taught you full Indian dinner, vegetarian and meat. The rest is in God's hands. It's up to God. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the, you know. I just love it. And I think there's something very intentional with what they were trying to do with the Indian family in this, with this beautiful family. Which is that they are adversarial toward her, right? And they are standing in the way of her dreams.

14:26But we never at any point dislike them. And also, I think this is really important for any antagonist, whether you come to love them or not in a film, which is that she gives them legs to stand on. Do you know what I mean? because everything they warn her about kind of comes true. You know, there's this, the father has this wonderful backstory where he played cricket and then he was rejected for being Indian, just, you know, a pure act of racism that has haunted him his entire life. And he basically says to her, like, they're not going to, they don't have our boys playing in their leagues. Why would they have a woman, you know?

14:58And then, you know, shortly afterwards, there is a racially provoked attack at one of the games. and you know there's like a there's like a moment where you know they tell her you can't be running around because a lot of eyes are on us because of this marriage that we're doing and then later on that does happen so it's like I I love that it never demonizes them their concerns are legitimate she just doesn't share those concerns yeah and it's like it's never that she turns her back on them and it's just that she's always finding these layers and levels of compromise that feels very real and that even an 18 year old girl who like is ready to sort of meet the world and go to university and strike out on her own that she would still be making these negotiations and compromises all the time like one thing that I don't like about this movie is that she has this beautiful ending with Joe where she says to him look I've already given my parents a lot like I've already put them through a lot here I think you might be a touch too far right now and also I'm I'm going to America, you know.

15:59I need to sample the delights of the United States. And they go, okay, and hit this really graceful ending. And then he just sort of like comes back one and a half minute later at the airport. Running. Running. Do we need to talk about that run? It's a crazy run. God, love Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, man. I don't know. There's something about that. Even though it's like a mainstream movie about girlhood and sports and going what you want and you go girl and girl power. But it still has this level of kind of measure and care and love that is like just beating through it the whole time that I just really loved.

16:33Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And there are so many parallels. Yeah, I never thought of it that way. But you're right. Like her parents, they're not just like kind of cranks, crazy, imagining things that aren't there. It's they are. Yeah, they're genuinely protecting her from what they have experienced and what they perceive. And there is also what I really like about this movie. like you said it's very intentional there's parallels right with her family and Jules' family right when like for example when Jess and her sister are in the car together at the wedding where she's like don't you want this like you know all of this like you know this wedding stuff and she's kind of like no I want I want more than this and then there's a kind of echo with it's just a rude thing to say to your sister on a wedding day by like I kind of want more than this she's like fuck you it's so true very true Archie Punjabi just eating the inside of her cheek like, fuck you.

17:29Yes, it's true. And right after too, you know, Jules's mom storms in and says, get your lesbian feet out of my shoes. Lesbian? I thought she was a Pisces. For you as an astrologist, it must be very exciting to have a line like that. Yeah, I just, I love, I've always loved that line. It's so great. And and yeah, but like there is the parallel, right, where Jules's mom's always kind of like, do you want to date that nice guy, Kevin? Kevin, who we never see. We're sort of like Chekhov's Kevin. We never see him. Totally. And even like, you know, in the end, right, like just like how that old Indian family saw perceived Jess and Jules kissing in the end, it's near the end.

18:18And it's Jules's mom that perceives Jess and Jules kissing and comes up with this whole thing that like has this meltdown at this wedding being like, you know, like you're together. And it's like both Jules's mom and Pinky's husband's family have that same conclusion. And so it's like kind of these very specific parallels, right? That's kind of like, yeah, they're very different families, right? But there are certain things that just they have in common. And I mean, I think that's why this movie, despite it being like it's so there are so many jokes that I'm sometimes I watch it. I was kind of like, I can't believe this movie is so popular because the humor feels so Punjabi.

18:57It feels like it captured so many like micro jokes, right, within the community. And yet people just kind of like it and they get it, right? They get the humor. Because like she's managed to kind of draw these very smart parallels between these two very different people. Yeah, it's like it's like giving a wide audience a key or a log kind of thing being like. Yeah. And I think as well, it's like it's sort of drawing the kind of the major parallel, which is that like there is no world with being a girl where you don't have gendered expectations pushed on you. They're just slightly different. Like for the first time we see Jules, which is like I still I know it's like famously Keira Knightley's breakout role.

19:35But every time I'm still like, wow, it's Keira Knightley with a boy haircut. And like part of me is like, oh, I'm happy for her that she got Pirates of the Caribbean right after this and then became like the corset queen of the millennials. But like I do sort of wish that we had this slightly larger window of time with Keira Knightley where she played like a little scrapper, you know. Yes, yes. It would have been nice. Totally. But the first time we see her, she's in like a bra shop with her mom, played by the icon that is Juliette Stevenson. Such a fucking icon. Everything she says is iconic.

20:09And she's like talking her through all these different push-up bras, which was like, I don't know. With the little extra pump that comes into the side. Oh my God, the pump. How does a bra work? So you just carry like a pump with you, like a bicycle, you know, and you're like, da-da-da-da, like where it loses air and then you refill it. It's crazy. It's nuts. It really brought me back. I was like, wow, this film is obsessed with boobs. Yeah, it is. And also the early 2000s was obsessed with boobs. So true. Because I, to give you some very personal information, I'm a late in life massive rack owner.

20:46So I was like, I grew up with Keira Knightley as being my icon of being like, she's flat chested, I'm flat chested, she's gorgeous. I aspire to certain aesthetic ideals. Yeah. and then when i was about 17 i suddenly had like double d's overnight it was fucked to the point where like sometimes i feel like i'm like now i have like my i have a g set of boobs like it's crazy and like i feel like my own teenage boy sometimes yeah it came like my identity as a girl was so formed by the time they came along i'm like a wooga like what's going on over there It's a whiplash, you know, it's like you live your life.

21:29Like, because, yeah, you know, it's funny. The movie is obsessed with boobs. And I was thinking about this in the context. If you don't wear that in Germany, right. And they're at the disco. And the top that Kieran Oatley, corset queen, is wearing is like the opposite of a corset. Because, like, it doesn't have, like, you can't have boobs and wear that top. Oh, my God. That top is an oil slick. It's crazy. It's nuts. I have to say, I'm sorry. I'll get back to the boobs in one second. But while we're on the German night out, I love, again, the sort of humble aims of British film. The big outing of this movie is they go to Cologne.

22:05No, they go to Frankfurt. Or Hamburg. It's one of them. Or something. It's so unglamorous. Yeah, exactly. And I think also, like, the movie, I don't know why this detail really came out to me, but on the airplane, it just says Hamburg. Yeah. It doesn't say, like, Reine. Yeah, the Hamburg Express. Hamburg Express. So strange. And they're in the club. But I do think that those outfits that Jess and Jules wear are among the best clubbing outfits in all of the film. Just Jess, that outfit, I wanted so badly. I mean, it wouldn't look good on me because of the boobs. The sort of like the backless string thing with the sort of almost leather effect, sort of almost velvet.

22:49She looks so good. And then you've got the Kira in the top. It's just the best couple of going out outfits I've ever seen. For sure. And you know what's so funny is that I realized, I was kind of like, oh, wow. Like, you know, early 2000s fashion is having its moment. Because like when I looked at that club scene, I was like, people just dress like that now. They do. It hasn't changed. They truly do. It's like, I mean, it's changed, but it's just come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here for it. I love it. It's so strange. I'm 35 and so I was a thinking sort of almost teen when this came out. And, you know, seeing all those outfits and all this stuff as being the height of glamour.

23:28And also women's football being very much a twinkle in the culture's eye. Do you know what I mean? Like it was understood that that was something women did do somewhere, I guess. Like in the same way that it's presented in this film, really. Being like, I guess women have to play competitively, I suppose. and now watching it first of all the fashion as you say has come all the way back around so much of it I would wear now even like the casual wear all the kind of like like Jess has this sort of like sleeveless tracky top where I'm like okay where do I get that I would like to be on the treadmill in that and the yeah and now the women's game in football I mean partially I think with credit to movies like this it has become such a huge enterprise like Yeah.

24:14Women's football is fucking huge now. Yeah. And it's amazing, too. Like, I remember around the time I first moved to this country when I was living in southeast London, I think it was like the women's final or something like that. I remember going to the pub and it being like just as exciting, just as packed, you know, just as much exuberance and energy for the women's team. Like just and it was the first time I life. Right. I'd seen like so many people show up. It was the same. It was like literally the same amount of enthusiasm packed room as a men's football match. And that's pretty cool. I mean, I would say women's football games are the only football games I have watched to completion.

24:51And that is like, first of all, it's just like the girls want to go see the girls. That's just one of the facts of life. And there's something about watching a girl pelted down a football pitch where like because I have the same kind of body, I just think like, oh, wow, I know what it's like to run with boobs. it sucks and so I just feel and I kind of got it for the first time I was like oh wow I can really feel how difficult that is in a way that I just don't relate to men's bodies in the same way and so therefore it feels sort of alien to me you know and I'm so glad we're talking about boobs again because like you're right this movie is obsessed with there's so many like you know kind of close ups right of like of boobs in this way that I love right and then like I think it's Chesnay Lewis's I was so curious because like you know because I think there's a scene where she's kind of like trying to change her top like yeah Jess is trying to change and then like the girls are just like whipping it off yeah can we zero in on Shaznay Lewis's boobs for a second she's so beautiful first of all yes she is second of all I remember on the way over here I was like I wonder if Nikita knows who Shaznay Lewis is I only you know I knew All Saints right And I knew like kind of some instinct, right, in me knew that, OK, they keep mentioning this like male character.

26:12And she must be famous, right, in some way, like some kind of cameo. Right. Because the way they talk about her is a little bit like. There she is. The captain. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, yeah, but I actually I knew all saints and I kind of recognized her as like a face in a British girl group. But I didn't know her name literally until like a week ago. OK, OK. Yeah. It's so exciting seeing her there. Can I just talk you through beat for beat? Anatomy of a scene here. Please. So, okay, we have Jess's first practice. As you say, she has that moment where she's like... And also, and we'll get back to it in a second, but she has this big burn scar on her leg that she's insecure about.

26:49She's never really shown her body before. She's in a situation where she's in the locker room with girls and they're all sort of out and proud and they're fun and it's great. Shaznay Lewis whips her top off. The most perfect breasts you've ever seen. and it's like very like Anne Somers coded sort of black lacy bra it's like okay you work queen yeah I think there's like diamante sort of on it it's very 2002 and then she she holds up a tampon and she goes welcome to the Hounslow Harriers I've got the painters and decorators in see ya and then just walks and she's like oh my god look I've never seen it's so funny It's funny.

27:31It's so kind of perfectly awkward and like in a way that, I don't know, with much love and respect to Chaznay, it does feel like, okay, it's a low budget movie. They didn't get a whole lot of takes and this is not a professional actress. So the delivery is so camp and there's kind of no pause between Welcome to the Hounslow Harriers and I've got the painters and decorators in. Totally. And you know what's funny? It would make sense. I wouldn't like it, but it would make sense if it was some kind of product placement for like Tampax or something. No, it's generic tampon. So it's like they did all of that, but not for like money.

28:05Just because it's so awkward. But not for like money. Yeah, yeah. It's like it wasn't like a way to budget the film. Nothing like that. It's just awkward. And also this term, you know, I think I learned this term, having the painters in, from reading books like Angus Thons and Full Frontal Sogging when I was like, yeah, a tween. which I believe Grinda also directed that right yes you're right I forgot about that so maybe there's a connection there yeah I mean I feel like they're both quintessentially British quintessentially British girls bodies yes and how weird they are I think is part of it yes yes and so I remember being like what does that mean and then like yeah when my friends and I loved those books and we were like I think that means she has her period because the thing is like once again And with the greatest respect to Shaznailu is, who has a perfect angel voice, is an icon and beautiful breasts.

29:01I feel like it's like, it's either you get the painters in or you have the decorators in. One or the other is like, welcome to the Hounslow Harriers. I've got the painters and decorators in. You are so right. Because like, what does the decorator do? What extra does the decorator do? It's so bizarre. It's so funny to me. But again, it's like, that is what makes a movie like this, that's what makes a cult movie into a sort of a blockbuster movie, right? It's like you have these beautiful moments of like incredible cinematography. Like I think one of the most, I was like in full tears just from the basic artistic expression of it in the kind of back half of the movie where we're splicing between the football game and the wedding and both are so beautifully shot and they're so percussive and propulsive and it's just that great feeling you get when a filmmaker is just working at the fucking top of their game and you're so glad that they have the tools they have and the people they have.

29:59And then you have these like camp strange moments, but that's also what makes the movie sing as well. It's like most of those things get in together. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the cinematography because I think upon like watching it for like a couple of times recently, right? I just, it had never occurred to me the first time I watched it how thoughtful it was, like, you know, that kind of splice scene And as I was reading some trivia about it, like I read that the reason Gurinder Chalda wanted to call it Bended Like Beckham was like because of that. I had to learn what Bended actually meant.

30:35Yeah. I learned that last night. Having watched this move. I don't fully know what it means, to be honest. Okay. So basically it's a move that Beckham either pioneered or I think he invented it where it's like if you kick a ball and it goes around the people who are blocking you for the penalty and it goes into the goal. so it's like did not know that I've been watching this movie for 20 years yeah I had no idea I mean it kind of feels like it should be curvet but I don't know curvet like Beckham it doesn't have the same doesn't have the same ring to it but the reason she called it that is because there's you know in the end right when the opera music is playing and she's doing penalties and she sees like her mom and sister in their Indian clothes like it's about getting around like that and getting it in the goal and um but Chatha said it was like for like all women you know it was like the The things that women have to face in order to get something right to the goals, they have to kind of like go around and curve around and maneuver, but they can do it.

31:31Right. That's the thing. So in a way, it's almost kind of like a celebration of that experience of just kind of going around to get the journey. It's the journey as much of the destination, I guess. That's lovely. That's so lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's so effective. and like it's like you don't realize that the whole movie is building to that and because it's that thing of like we're splicing between that wedding and that game and she's sort of learned the whole movie to keep these or she's behaved in the whole movie that in order for her to have both lives she must keep them separate but it's the kind of eventual merging that like that makes her win you know and gets her everything she wants absolutely and and yeah and even with that scene right I think before the game there she's like playing by herself in the backyard of their house and there's a clothes line of like all the Indian clothes hanging and she kind of she does bend it right she kind of kicks the ball so it goes around there and that kind of echoes that final scene where like you know she has that mirage right the vision so yeah there's just so many little subtle things that I think that you know we we all love this movie right but like I don't think I really appreciated that kind of like artistic the technique you know of yeah like a filmmaker at the top of her game as you say yeah yeah it's and it's so oh it's so wonderful because I think as well like you know being a female football player is is really not unlike being a female director in that there are very few of them we know the full names of for sure you know and there's we're really only allowed to have a few at a time and then and there are constantly being cancelled or dismissed or whatever or like it's so I I can you can really see her bringing herself to this like yeah like how like like we are still in a world where like particularly in movies it's better in tv but movie directors we are still seeing that as a male job and yeah yeah I just love I love it I loved thinking about her making this movie about this girl who's trying to get everything that she wants while she was getting everything that she wanted yeah you know yeah yeah there's a kind of real you can tell like that the movie is very special to her because like if i remember yesterday i was watching like the end credits right and she has like a bit of bloopers behind the scenes right and it's like they just had so much fun on the set you know and i really believe this about all art right like you can always tell when you read a book when you watch a movie whether somebody had fun writing it because that just kind of bleeds through to the final product and I think that was really the case here both like the having the fun part but then also it meet being something very personal and emotional for her and it kind of coming out in this in this way that's yeah and I was listening to her because she dedicated to her father and like you can I believe her father died quite shortly before they started making it and and she I listened to her Desil Island Disks earlier today and she was talking about how she knows that looking back on that movie now all she really sees is the grief that she felt on losing him and how she tells a story about how when they were so she was born in kenya and then her parents moved to britain in the 70s and then he her father worked in barclays bank in kenya and then he sort of applied for the same job in southall and was escorted off the premises he wasn't just refused the job he was like thrown out and it was this huge huge horrible shame and he was sick so he had the you know turban and long hair and everything and he sort of shaved his head to work in britain like huge huge yeah um violation really a thing to have to do to provide for your family and and said all the time that if he could afford the um plane the airfare bag that he would have done so and then she talks about like you know when when she got her bank statements for her first film about how she saw it all was filtering through a bank statement that was going through the same branch that he was thrown out of and how that was this kind of strange thing for her but how he would he would because of the experience that he had of like trying to break into institutions that didn't want to have him there how he was always trying to protect her from institutions that he believed wouldn't want her there either and like that it really and i you know you get it's not just an immigrant experience sometimes it's like you know it's a queer experience or it's even whatever basically it's you know it's kind of a child's job to make get into the rooms their parents never could you know whatever room that means and then you know so many people in the arts sort of say you know oh my parents didn't want me to pursue this and it's because it's it's I'm so my heart is so broken by the idea of the like wanting to protect your child because of your lived experience and therefore not being able to believe that that your lived experience could could evolve kind of thing or think or time could evolve or whatever and sorry i'm expressing myself badly but only because it just moved me so much you know yeah yeah exactly and it goes back to what you said before right like her parents have very legitimate concerns and um and yeah it's that kind of like the job of the parents to like protect the child but like at you know at what point is it too much at what point is it like you know like becoming like you have to just like let go right and be like you know what like i can't protect them from this kind of disappointment that I felt they're just going to have to face that on their own.

37:05And that's just really beautiful. It is. It really is. Can we talk about Bloody Irish Joe? Well, I would love to hear your thoughts on Irish Joe. They're so complex. They're so complex. Because first of all, I would like to front load by saying that Jonathan Rhys-Meyers is from my hometown. Really? So why does he sound like that?

37:32Why does he sound like an American model who is putting on an Irish accent sometimes? Yeah. I can't really explain that. So is he actually Irish? Yes! What? I just assumed he was doing Irish voice. You know, kind of like... Don't we all! Oh my god, so... Dude, right? Right. It's so disturbing. And it's very strange. And he has had a huge amount of personal issues and he's had addiction issues. And I feel my heart goes out to him and his recovery and his life. And I think he's probably lovely. But he has an evil vibe. Like his screen presence at its best is evil. One of my favorite movies is Vanity Fair, the 2003 version.

38:19And he's like George Osborne in that. And he is like an incredible evil playboy who's sort of weak and screws over the girl. And it's like, yes, you're in exactly the role you're supposed to be in. Like, you should be the cad forever and then eventually become Jude Law, you know? But like, putting him in this role, he feels like sadistic and predatory to me. Yeah, there's like an intensity to his gaze, you know? Yeah, right? If it was an actor like, say, Josh O 'Connor, do you know what I mean? Like, off the top of my head, do you know what I mean? Somebody who's like hot right now or whatever.

38:51somebody who's got kind of a softness to them or a playfulness to them and like you can sort of see like oh yeah like it's kind of funny you're like a cute guy and you also teach the girls and like you hang out with them and you're gonna you keep your distance but one of them really gets under your skin like you could so see it's not even an age issue or a power issue because like he's probably like 22 it's just a fucking vibe issue and like I understand that casting him that um Greta Chata might have seen him and been like, wow, that guy is like a pinup waiting to happen. Like he looks like he's carved from ivory.

39:24The character I've written is Irish. He's Irish. This is perfect. But it just, to me, they have no real chemistry. And I think it kind of supports the sort of the cult theory of this movie, which is that it feels like it was supposed to be a lesbian movie. And then that they swerved, they bended it at the last moment. even though Greta Chata has said many times that this was never meant to be a lesbian film. It just came out that way. With Keira Knightley's strong lesbian vibe, you know? Yeah, well, also, you're right. They just don't have much chemistry at all. They don't talk about anything that isn't, like, her career or her family or, like, how she's going to get around her family to get to her career.

40:04Yeah, yeah. And, like, even, like, the... Because, you know, he has the whole thing where his, like, dad was, like, really tough. You know what I read, actually, which is so interesting is apparently that line that is like, I don't know, I feel like all of like the Indian American, the diaspora bloggers, they're always like, that line is so offensive. It's dated so badly, blah, blah. I don't personally believe that. Oh, the bit where he's like, I'm Irish. Of course I know. That is crazy. It's very triggering to me, that line. Me and the Indian diaspora are pissed off about that. Yes. I mean, I'm just kind of like, whatever.

40:40But apparently he improvised that line and the character wasn't meant to be Irish, but he'd like kind of like said it in practice and then they made him Irish, which is like. So then the fact that he is actually Irish is like kind of throwing me for a loop now. Crazy. So maybe that's why that thing is coming off where he's like he's Irish, but he seems like an English person pretending to be Irish. Yeah, he seems like an American person pretending to be Irish. Like it's worse. the thing is the thing why i find that so so yeah she's um like yeah someone calls her a racial slur at a game and um she pushes them she gets red carded she storms off she says you'd never understand which by the way he wouldn't and he says of course i understand i'm irish and to me it's like i have i have sat on this podcast so many times with people who have different experiences to me, whether that's, you know, racially, religiously, whether they come from whatever.

41:37And I've said, like, I've tried to say very carefully, like, oh, as an immigrant also, it's kind of maybe, let's try and find connection points, but I so understand that I'm not working on that level at all. But please, here's my experience. Like, I'm like, oh! Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like... Meanwhile, this guy's like, I'm Irish! And every time in my head, I am couching it in like, don't be Jonathan Rhys-Myers. Don't be Jonathan Rhys-Myers.

42:11But, you know, maybe it's because he looks like that. Maybe it's because he kind of looks like intense and chiseled. When he says that, I'm kind of like, it kind of makes sense for his character. Yeah. Which is just kind of like that. It's like, dude, I think people just don't like you. I just don't believe it. I just don't I don't believe anything about him Yeah I like looking at him for sure Yeah But yeah I mean it's amazing that he's such a big part of the film and I adore the film yet I don't think he works at all Yeah You know I've had so many people tell me whether they're Indian you know just girls of all different races Yeah Some men too who said that like their hormones kicked in when they saw Jonathan Rhys-Meyers and Men in Like Beckham you know in that white button down shirt Oh yeah Coming in to like, you know, eating to eat, not, you know, uninvited to be like, you need to let Jess play on the team.

43:04And then I've heard just as many people say that all of that left in the final scene where they have that awkward kiss, not kiss. And also he does that weird run. You know what I mean? I did not clock the run, but I would like you to explain the run to me. So the run. So, you know, it's funny. I did not clock the run either. But when I worked at that magazine in New York, that was my bosses were obsessed with that run. They would like imitate it, right? Because he kind of like moves his arms in kind of circles and his legs in circles, too. You know, and like literally I would be sitting at work at my first internship and my bosses would like run around like that, imitating him.

43:44That sounds really funny. Because they thought the run was so ridiculous. And I was like, OK, this must be like a weird quirk of those bosses. But then I was talking to my co-worker about it last week. And she was kind of like, that run was crazy. I was like, do multiple people think this? And she was kind of like, you know, the thing is, he coaches football, right? He, of all people, should know how to, like, not run. Like an idiot. He kind of runs like, you know, that episode of Friends where Phoebe kind of... Oh my God, Phoebe can't run. Oh my God. Is it like, it's like in the grand tradition of races to the airport in rom-coms, is it bottom of the pack?

44:20Bottom. it is rock bottom it's bottom narratively because they've already like had this kind of really graceful lovely goodbye that really works for me as an artistic move I can understand why maybe a test audience were like no we can't do that she must kiss the boy she must but so it's bad narratively it's bad on a cinematography level and also David Beckham is in the background yeah yeah well thank god he's there right because then it cuts that scene it's like oh my gosh Beckham's there let's move the camera away and just focus on the body double. Also, the kiss is bad. Yeah. The kiss is bad.

44:54It's not a good kiss. It kind of like happens, not happens. They look away. She's not even like facing him for half of it. It's weird. They don't seem like two actors who spend a lot of time together, do they? It feels like two actors who, they wanted to only film this once and they wanted to really make sure they were rolling. So they were just like sliding their eyes. Is this good? Is this okay? I don't want to do this again. So can we do it? Is it alright? Totally, totally. and so when the side gets back I'm like oh thank god we can stop now yeah no chemistry no chemistry yeah oh and as well when he goes to that final game where finally everything comes together and it's so beautifully done he is dressed like he's there for the world cup he's there in a three-piece suit yes everything about that character is off for me absolutely everything and also the foot thing is weird like he makes her he like randomly punishes her for chatting to Jules in like training and then he makes her do laps and then she hurts herself because he makes her do so many laps and then he shouts at her to stop doing laps and then he just massages her foot in like a very predatory way I'm sorry if people are really hot for this but like I don't see it you know Caroline I think the foot thing might be unfortunately like a weird Indian thing I'm not saying that a country a billion people have foot fetish what I am saying is that like so in um so it's my mom was telling me this and just blew my mind so like in Indian courtship in like in brothels right and like kind of um Mughal India right you would have these courtesans and the courtesans back then like in in the Indian culture at the time they weren't like seen as prostitutes per se I mean it's what they did but they were seen as almost like confidants kind of a geisha vibe.

46:43Yes, yes, exactly. And then, you know, colonials kind of came and changed all of that. But there's this kind of hangover from that time because a lot of Indian classical dancing, right, is done barefoot and you have like anklets and you know, so it's like seen as this kind of like very like sensual part of the body. And my mom was telling me like it's kind of made its way throughout Bollywood and like various phases. And there's this one very famous song that it's like from some movie where you know a man is on a train and he sees a prostitute and like the blanket like falls off and he just looks at her feet for like an hour and sings a song about it and I was like oh god I think this is like this foot thing goes way back oh my god I'm so glad I know that now I mean like I this is what I mean this is just my one of my pet theories I mean it seems pretty yeah like it's a pretty well researched theory yeah yes because I was just kind of like why very gratuitous foot massage there has to be something something else going on here and it is god the more you know wow yeah i mean like yeah i suppose if you're like making this movie and you're like you know football feet it's called football i guess feetball you know let's see your foot let's see your foot have that yeah yeah totally i love it no i love it you know what I really love the beans on toast story because it's kind of like the one thing that they talk about that is sort of nice and funny and I'm found today as I'm sure you probably did too while reading the trivia section of IMDB that the actress Parminda Dagra she had that same injury so the story that she tells on screen as Jess is what happened to her as a young kid that she was trying to make toast when she was a child that she stood on a sort of a stepladder in order to reach the toast on the top sort of grill, which is sort of like such a beautiful little detail.

48:42I kind of forgot that we used to make toast that way. And that her tracksuit pants caught a flame. Her sister put her in the bath and then tore the trousers off her and then her skin came off as well. It's a harrowing story. It's so awful. It is the worst thing you can imagine happening to an eight-year-old. And it really happened to her. And then it really happened to the character as well. And what's so lovely about that is that I really do think that like we should, I think about this a lot lately because I'm writing for the screen at the moment, that like a character really should be shaped like couture to the performer.

49:14You know, it's kind of, it's not in every situation, obviously, but if a actor is bringing something to a role that is like hard to ignore, whether it's like a facial feature or a tick or a accent or their height or whatever, that like you would, it's kind of almost wasteful not to use it in something like because in this world, of course, these people are observing them in the same way that people would observe this actor in the normal world. and so for them to bring this story about this actress's life into the script it kind of first of all it gives them something more intimate to talk about that isn't just football or her family but second of all it kind of like accidentally almost grounds the relationship with her sister in a way that I found really moving because this is her and the sister are at odds all the time Pinky who's a few years older and who's getting engaged and she's very much it's kind of very much framed as like she is sort of upholding and joyfully upholding every kind of like female stereotype um that's expected of her she wants to get married she wants to have a big wedding she wants to have loads of outfits it's great and they can never really see each other or understand each other through this and they have very few moments of harmony within the film itself but like having this recollection of like oh my sister put me in the bath and tore my clothes off and the skin came off too it's this kind of beautifully haunting story of like extreme care but also care that hurts you you know yeah and that being this kind of lovely little metaphor for the sister relationship in a way you know yeah the sister relationship the whole family relationship too right yeah like they care so much but it's a little it's too much it comes at the price right of like yeah of just herself and i just i love that detail too and it's you know the fact also that it's something so like mundane like beans on toast right yeah it feels like very hidden it also feels like such a there's like a cultural thing there too where it's like beans on toast very quintessentially like british food yeah it's she wasn't burning it on like you know olugobi right it's like it was that like this attempt to kind of like make something to make something so british kind of like backfiring oh my god i hadn't even thought of it it's very layered story and it's true and I think in a way like that's what you know because I've written plays in the past and I you know I dabble in writing for dialogue screen etc and that's one thing that I think that's so lovely about writing like in a collaborative space like that where it's like you almost you can't be too precious yeah about the words just leave a little bit of flexibility because a performer right might bring in something that's like such a gem yeah right that you just kind of have to like let it be like a group project right right yeah yeah and I'm in the process of like changing something about a character right now to sort of potentially fit an actor and watching this movie again last night I had this real like light bulb moment being like oh yeah they would have been crazy not to have used that story you know it had so much and it was like I don't know it felt like one of those artistic sort of like kismet moments where I was like thank you for that.

52:20I really appreciate it, babe. Yeah, I mean, much better than the Irish improvisation. Listen, like 90 % of our instincts are good. Yes, yes. So you don't always have to do what the performer says. But in this case, good job. Good, good move. Good job. Is there anything else in the movie you want to talk about? I feel like we've skidded around quite a lot. Yes, well, you know what? And one of the most fascinating pieces of trivia that I came across was that this movie was the first British movie to ever air in North Korea. What? Yes. And it was like something like some kind of thawing of relations where it was the first time in 10 years a British representative had gone to North Korea.

53:06And it was like this gifted screen, right? Heavily edited in the Pyongyang Film Festival where it won the award for best music. Best music? Yes, which is interesting. That had me think a lot about the music in this film, which I really love because it kind of does this good job of kind of blending the Indian music with the Western music. And a lot of it is kind of iconic songs, right, that I'd heard in childhood, like remixed slightly, to be more like dancey in the 90s. And yeah, I just, I agree with the North Koreans on this one. I think they're just that. You know what we said about North Korea?

53:46a great taste in music so what about inner smile the texas track that is so associated with this movie yeah it's just i cannot unsee that song from this movie they're just tied it almost feels like it was made for this movie which obviously it wasn't but i think it's because that montage too where it happens right where there's the volume music and then there's them playing football right and that song playing it's just yeah I mean it's I think that scene captures the song so well because like I was listening to the song on the way here and just listening to the lyrics and it was kind of like yeah I mean the fact of like an inner smile right it's like well what's your outer smile what is your outer smile doing you're not smiling on the outside you know there's a kind of yeah yeah and it's kind of great as well because that line that her dad specifically says to her is Go to your football game, come back and smile.

54:38Yes. Yeah, it's just, I think it's like a very well-chosen song. And then there's the song that plays, it's Nusrat Fatih Ali Khan, who is a Pakistani Sufi, like he's very, he's got this very special voice. And Jeff Buckley was actually like a huge fan of his and kind of like, he idolized him. And you actually weirdly see a lot of similarities, like Jeff Buckley and Nusrat Fatih Ali Khan. And one of his most famous songs is remixed in one of the wedding scenes. And it's just like, yeah. And also, this is such a subtle detail. But early in the movie, she says something like, oh, you know, I don't know why my parents won't let me play football.

55:19I never went to the daytimers that like Pinky and her friends were going to. Like day raves, right? Yes, yes. And I just like this is I think maybe this is something actually even when I was in America, maybe it's part of the reason I moved to this country. Like I just thought it was so interesting. Right. So I was looking more into these day raves and like, what are they? And it was that like usually because especially these traditional families in the north of England, young Indian kids would go like during school to these raves where they play Bhangra music, which is like a mix. Right. It's a kind of a dancey version of Punjabi songs that I grew up in India.

55:53Right. I thought Bhangra was Indian, full stop. But then it was only later I realized, no, it's actually British. Really? Yes, it was DJs in like, you know, Birmingham and just all over England who had kind of remixed these like Punjabi songs with like a bit of a dance beat. And it would be so popular like in these raves. And now like bhangra music is like the standard. It's so popular all over India. But it was like so interesting to me that it was born. It came from the UK. That's so cool. And so for me, like this movie, the fact that she used so much of bunker music in this movie just really kind of echoes this thing that I love about this movie, which is just it's just like a love letter to multicultural Britain, you know?

56:34Yeah. And the way that sort of like played visually so much as well, like one of my favorite shots in the whole movie, like obviously we have the wedding and like the wedding is just so gorgeous and so so opulent, but so true at the same time, because like the I think it's happening in like a community hall, right? Like kind of an unglamorous space that has been like made glamorous for the day. And it's and it and also there's like scenes in like Jesse's house where they're like dancing in the hallway while Jonathan Rhys-Myers looks on. And this kind of it's so kind of packed and colorful and joyful.

57:09And you really get this like immediate sense of like why you would do everything to protect this. I was like, yeah, I would like forbid my daughter from dating a white guy, too, because he's good. because what if we got a bunch of white guys in here we can't do this they would find it weird and we'd feel weird doing in front of it it's so true and like i love that you know it's this is one of those things where it's like i think what she captured is like she captured indian weddings so well right because you can't have an indian wedding without like six things going wrong right and like there's a part where like they're beating up the videographer right because the videographer like gets the two guys yeah people like kissing in the bathroom yeah the weird guy who like motorboats, her mother-in-law or something.

57:50I was like, who is this guy? Because that's another thing in India where there's always some weird cousin from India who just kind of like shows up and you're like, who is this? This is the kind of thing that she's got. Like she's capturing such a relatable thing in this community so well. And it still kind of works. That's a larger phenomenon. Yeah, it's like characters we've never seen and we'll never see again. But like just like tiny vignette. It's like, oh yeah, of course. I know exactly who that is. Totally. And and yeah, like and just that in I think it's during the engagement party or something like that when Jonathan Rismaris once again shows up at the house and he's uninvited.

58:28Yeah, uninvited be like, I'm sorry to interrupt your festivities. I'm Irish. I understand. I understand. But like when they're talking, right, and it's just the two of them, suddenly they're interrupted because someone in the party is like, and i'm like this is so it's so it's fucking it's so it's so cool it's so gorgeous sorry i forgot to say my favorite favorite shot which was the back garden when it kind of pulls out and it's like you see the other gardens that are just everything's just like plain placid britain carrying on as normal and this like big fucking party happening in the back garden it just rules it just looks great yeah yeah no it's and it's so refreshing because i mean this is like a bit of a tangent but i feel like nowadays right like indian weddings have become so they've become this kind of like status showing off thing like i think there was some billionaire who got married indian wedding had like beyonce viana like all these people there on a boat it was very showy and it was it was a little bit i thought frankly like a little bit disgusting just because it's like, you know, there's like so much pain and so much wrong in the world.

59:39It's like, why are you using your money for that? Yeah. Right. But yeah, but like, you know, and I've been to enough Indian weddings now, you know, where it's kind of like it's been co-opted. All of these like traditions have been co-opted and it's become about like money and and thing. And so it's nice. It was just so nice in this movie to see like an Indian wedding that was just really about like community and kind of like having this this really sweet celebration. right of just of that culture and like protecting it and nurturing it in a space that doesn't necessarily accommodate it right right and and the thing as well of like because throughout the movie we hear again and again of sort of like the gossip of living in this community and the watchfulness and like you know jess has so many of her sort of like plans scuppered just by people seeing her somewhere doing something you know and then it's like you get this huge moment of release to the very end being like but this is why we have a tight community is because because we get to be ourselves around each other and we do look at each other and we do poke at each other and judge each other but ultimately the like the value that we get from being this tight knit is like not something you wouldn't trade in a million years for sure for sure and poking at each other is so true because there's another like of one of these lines that i caught where she's archie punjabi is walking in her like red you know bridal outfit and one of the girls in the background i was like she looks like a bloody jar of ragu in it it's like wow it's like so mean it's like for wedding day but it's like that's the thing it's like the kind of like that community noise right it kind of coexists like yeah there's like a lot that's wrong with it but there's also like stuff that's nice with it right it's it's complicated it's very complicated yeah like i think i think the word community in general has become this weird like enshrined word that like it's like brands it's like what it's like a brand yeah exactly and it's like the um people just sort of like oh you know the local community kind of thing like what are you talking about do you mean your friends or do you mean the lady who works in the library i don't understand what you're saying what do you mean when you say community to me yeah yeah and we're sort of vaguely aware that like community is good and we should have it but we don't have enough because of the phones and all this stuff and so there is a temptation i think to represent the idea of community as this monolithic thing where everyone helps each other do their homework and like gives each other money and stuff.

1:01:56Like, no, it's like, it's not monolithic. It's a kind of, it's a complicated experience that like, when we see this character experiencing every pro and con of existing in one, you know? A hundred percent. And I feel like, you know, community is like, I think people think of it, right? Because of the way brands have co-opted the word. And it is a good thing, right? But ultimately it is about kind of like accepting people who are like, you don't like. oh my god yes yeah and just kind of like dealing with them for the purpose right of like some kind of harmony some kind of peace because I think we think like community is like you know people who buy into like uh or people who are like you right but it's like no it's it's the opposite it's about it's like a decision that you make right where yeah that's why like you know it's I think yeah it's I'm fascinated by this because I think you know Gurinder Shada especially like at this time does this so well where she shows that and and you know we as as indian people we know well where i'm from in india at least right you know i'm from india i moved to the u.s right my family moved to the u.s where we didn't know anybody so it was like other people in the indian community that kind of took us in that like you know made sure we felt comfortable so those communities exist like and it's good because we look out for each other but could also be bad right because there's the downside of it which is it can get insular you know it can um you know you can excuse all kinds of like behavior sometimes very sexist patriarchal I think so her first movie Grymder Chatham's first movie Bludgy on the Beach is a bit more of like an issues film and that really delves into you know the downside of the community and how it's kind of like community in that movie which is also very funny is used right as a way to kind of keep women in like horrible marriages or yeah you know because they're worried about what people will say yeah you get that all the time where like self-reporting and like going to the police or whatever or using any kind of sort of like sending any kind of flare-off becomes a taboo because drawing negative attention to any community becomes such a it becomes worse than this in itself kind of thing it's it is like yeah it's so interesting that you said that that like community means accepting people that you don't like and like i think about this all the time because like uh we were talking before we went on air about like um how sort of puritanical reading culture can be sometimes and like every every reader particularly the specific kind of online reader like the tiktok reviewer girlies or the goodreads reviewer girlies or whatever and they're not always girlies but you know they're girlies in the heart um and how i'm so struck by like how frequently people talk about it i love books about found family like found family is a big buzzword in the reading community themes of found family found family it's like what we mean people the found families that we like are the ones where it takes different people in order to get a job done it's like why everyone loves a heist movie is because like none of these people have anything in common except that they have this goal in common and you know some of them are ignorant or arrogant or boring or stupid or smelly or whatever like it's the kind of the idea that it takes different kind of people to come together and get a job done that is so attractive and yet we do still strive for a kind of a puritanism in both our literature and in our spaces like I mean you hear this all the time it's like the cliche of like leftist spaces that like people try and get like some kind of a community meetup going and then immediately there's problems over like someone not being I know yeah or whatever yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah totally it's you know it's I think it's a huge you know just everything there's so much dialogue right around this stuff going on today people trying to protect like communities and seeing some people as a bad there's so much division right under the name of like this that's yeah it's it's anyway like that's why you know Benedict like Beckham is such a like because I was you know this is technically it's a post 9-11 film right and I think like a lot of these movies that came out around the time they were kind of sad there was a kind of heaviness right in the air and then in comes this film that's like you know so joyful just music color girls hugging optimism boobs yeah exactly boobs optimism color like it just uh and I think that's that's what's so that's what I think this is why this movie is powerful right because it really just is like yeah like there's a lot of problems right there's a lot of problems in you know with race and community and all of this stuff but like ultimately like we can we can just kind of make it work yeah yeah it's hopeful it's very helpful movie it is one of my favorite bits of the movie and made me cry and I've been holding off and talking about it because I was afraid I might cry on mic where there's the bit I mean there's the running gag with Juliet at Stevens's character that she's so panicked that um her daughter Jules might be a lesbian um and at one point where she she basically because she keeps overhearing conversations wrong or whatever and um she's talking to her husband who is lovely and I wish I saw him in more things but he's lovely she's talking to her husband and she's in tears and she's like oh you know that Jess you know broke her heart and everything and she says you know I just think about what they did to George Michael putting all that personal all of his personal business in the present it was awful and then her husband says to her oh no i'm getting emotional yeah but george michael is a star and used to listen to wham it's such a sweet scene you know why does it make me cry because it's like you know up till then right like that couple was seen as kind of like oh he supports the daughter she doesn't but it's like oh like there's a reason right this couple is together and like eventually like he does he's the one telling you like helping her right understand like this is football like it's a real like working yeah yeah like uh relationship and it's it's really really sweet I just love it I love their dynamic and there's something just so so touching and beautiful about like parents who kind of again they know they know their child will enter rooms they never got to and they know that in order to for that to happen they have to let go of them a bit and letting going a bit means that they have to as much as they can let go of their fears for their child as well or at the very least keep those fears to themselves so it doesn't hamper their child and the idea that like I don't know you would like think your child is so extraordinary that you would think they were on the level of George Michael you know what I mean like you're afraid for them like you're afraid for George Michael but you also think they're as good as George Michael yeah totally yeah it's so funny and you there's like there's just wonderful scenes of like just like parenting parents like just supporting each other right they're like a thing like you know there's a part where they're sitting in jess's room where they're kind of like what haven't we done for these girls she wanted a tv set we bought her for her i'm so with them it's like but it's just it's so adorable it's so sweet right just to see like you know parents like couples like rely on each other to just kind of work through like you know issues they truly love these girls and that is never in doubt you know it's just so nice oh and can I tell my this is actually like a surprisingly long movie I remember like pausing it a few times being like there's an hour left yeah yeah one of my favorite like montages in the film and again it's like back to sort of my my sort of renewed love of british film at the moment it's like the the most like grim little montage but it's so joyfully played of like jess and jules taking the tube to oxford street no to pickett day circus they come off the tube they go to carnaby street they buy a pair of football boots they go to the three greyhounds pub on old compton street they have a pint they get back on the tube and that's like the whole montage of their day in London.

1:09:52That's like the peak of her happiness. It's very sweet, you know. They're in her capri pants, you know, just kind of like, yeah, going to the pub. It's adorable. It's like when you think of all the kind of London montages of like, oh my God, like look at all these places, Buckingham Palace. Yeah. And it is like also, back to the music, like I think the song that was playing was Independence Day by Sporty Spice. By Sporty Spice. Yeah, the one who doesn't have a fellow god love her poor old melsey gets in the neck doesn't she hope she's all right i mean she gets to sing that amazing song where that they're dancing to at the club right oh yeah it's great it's great i love the club i know we talked about it already but i just it has such it just really captures the energy of just being away for the first time with your friends at 18 yeah it's just short bit of the movie but it's like something about it just captures up a whole kind of transition of life of like that first time you get on the plane without your parents you know for sure and also like the part where you know jess doesn't have like clothes for clubbing and who do they call mel mel shazne lewis with the you know fabulous you know she's always got a tampon she's always got this the painters are in the painters and decorators are in and look she she decorated jess she was like yeah no problem of course she has an extra pair of clothes going out clothes you know to germany yeah girls girls girls

1:11:22so you are an astrologer in training in training i am i am i just i i always yes i am i am i'm always like what if i'm not good enough i think you are i mean we had a big long conversation about it before you got in here and i am a real skeptic when it comes to this stuff and you really converted me because you said like one thing about me and my husband so I'm like wow let me you know take my money um but we know from this film that Jess is a Pisces how do we think she stacks up as a Pisces in this movie very well because Pisces the number one thing is that they kind of get really lost in their daydreams and she's got so many kind of like you know dream montages oh my god of course yes and you know what's funny is like I don't know a girl in other sign but i think she might be a pisces because in her previous movie budgie on the beach that character one of the main characters is also a pisces and someone says like you're a pisces because you daydream a lot oh wow there's some kind of yeah i don't know actually i didn't double check but i'm like there's some kind of pisces action going on there's like a thread of the pisces but yeah i would say she stacks up uh as a pisces it's hard to i would say yeah for me like that's the kind of like telltale telltale sign yeah she's definitely the dreaming yes that's why I would say the Pisces and then I think she was also like quiet you know she kind of is she's compassionate right I think that's another thing with Pisces a very like empathetic very compassionate you know that's what it says in theory it's always more complicated than that dark side shadow side everything we don't know what time of day she was born what's her moon sign you know all of that makes a difference but um but yeah like i think ultimately right she is even though she's like very frustrated by the way her parents block her like she does a little bit still kind of like understand where they're coming from yeah you know so uh so yeah i think she does kind of see like all sides and then there's also oh gosh i feel like i don't want the Pisces of the world to hate me.

1:13:33I do. I love, I love the sign of Pisces. I love all signs. But, you know, there's a part where like she and John Therese Myers, like almost kiss and then just says, you act so innocent, you know? And I think that sometimes like Pisces, like they're very good hearted. Right. But that kind of shadow side is like, sometimes they don't realize. Right. But when they're like kind of acting in a way that could potentially like hurt somebody, but then they're like, I didn't mean it. It's not my fault. I don't know what I'm doing. And maybe she didn't, you know, like, but, and yeah, these things happen, right?

1:14:03And she didn't know that Jules liked her. To be fair, she doesn't even snog him. She's basically going to have a bit of a moment. Also, Jules just being like, you bitch! It is like such, like, it's like, you should have given Kira another take on that one. You bitch!

1:14:25Well, at least she had that great top on. Yeah, I know. She should have no problem with her. Corset queen. Yeah. Nikita, you have a book out called Ghost Chili. Could you tell us a little bit more about it? Yeah. So Ghost Chili is about a girl, a woman, a girl, not yet a woman. Not a girl, not yet a woman. Living in New York who kind of takes a lot of pride in being the funny one, you know, always a good time. But then, you know, life happens. She kind of just can't keep up the facade anymore because she's losing friends. You know, she can't keep she can't date anyone. She's very lonely. And then, yeah, just kind of events transpire in her life that force her to really confront the her PTSD.

1:15:13So it is a book about complex PTSD, but how it like it's not when you hear the word. It's like PTSD is like such a wet blanket. You say that word and it's like immediately like. yeah but like it's actually it can take so many different forms right and it's a book about like it is a it's a comic novel right but it's about how like you know the a life kind of forms right around it and then getting the diagnosis but how like getting a diagnosis of that especially in today's like therapy culture everyone has all the words right for everything is really not the same as like actually like living those things and it really is a you know I've it's now I've thought about this book so much and how I'm gonna talk about it and I think it is a book about like loving your family you know and kind of going back and just seeing people like like acknowledging people's flaws right and kind of making the decision like that like you just gonna love love them anyways because like yeah like kind of just having right like knowing the answers to everything as we do in our culture today is just not the same as like feeling and um and true acceptance so yeah that's like the book in a nutshell i love that so much yeah i i feel like god what an amazing topic to hit on it's such a that's a real fascination for me as well that idea that you can sort of like intellectually know something or even sort of noodle around something with your thoughts as a kind of a thought experiment I think I heard you on a podcast recently say like you know we all kind of sit around with our friends and be like oh yeah I think that's because of your trauma from your father and like we don't know we're just sort of like but we found this kind of like communal language for talking about our emotions that because talking about your emotions in public is kind of a new phenomenon like on that and on the level we talk about them now the way we will just talk about you know trauma or or childhood stuff or stuff that was a generation previously considered really quite private we're almost quite new to having a public emotional language and so we sort of as millennials i think sometimes are you millennial yes okay um i don't know how you define yourself um like we almost act like we're the kind of the first colonizers of the heart and mind a bit we're like this is called compersion we call it compersion or whatever this is called empathy dumping this is called i think we're like sticking our flags in different parts of the human brain

1:17:46and i think it's fascinating i i'm i can't wait to read it i'm i'm so excited i'm so much i've loved hanging out with you today this is the best it's been so much fun i'm like i feel like we just love we love this movie for the same reasons you know um yeah thank you so much for having me Please come back and please talk about astrology when you come back. I have so much more to say. I was going to say I have the whole thing with millennials, what you were saying, Neptune and Pisces, Pluto and Scorpio. We're like a very emotional. I mean, if you look at the astrology, a very emotional, like we're very emotionally articulate.

1:18:19Right. But we kind of just don't know what to do. We don't know what to do with it. I have to say, you are the first person I've met to talk about astrology in a way where I want you to talk way more about it. So, like, I think you have a huge future as astrologer. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm in the books, you know, because, you know, for me, astrology is just I just see it as language, you know. And a lot of the teachers that I've learned from, they're more like the very academic, they're readers. Right. And so the way they kind of have taught astrology to me is like interpreting a novel. You know, like every person's chart is just like a map of their lives.

1:18:53Right. And treating it like a language, a book. I just think it's a very if you look at it in a narrative way, it's very powerful. I love that okay we gotta go but thank you again and that book is Ghost Chilling thanks Caroline